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HOMEBREW Digest #2123
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1996/07/24 PDT
Homebrew Digest Thursday, 25 July 1996 Number 2123
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!
Contents:
Made in the Shade IV (Homebrew Competition) ((Jeff Handley & Gene Almquist))
RE: Hole in the Gott (John Wilkinson)
more Rodenbach factoids (Jim Liddil)
brewing without a Tesla coil (Gregory King)
What is Aeration anyway??? ((Mike Spinelli))
HBD access, HBD Jr. ((George De Piro))
Gelatine finings ("Donald A. Put")
Weddings: Average Beer Consumption (Bill Rust)
What's the use of HBD ("Huyck, Randall W.")
Re: What is Aeration anyway??? ("J. Rigney")
male hops/cold, flat beer (korz@pubs.ih.lucent.com)
RE: Tips on BrewFest (mikehu@lmc.com)
"Infected" Beer (Jim Liddil)
Keg Conversion ("Herb B Tuten")
Drilling Stainless Steel ("Brian P. Colgan")
Indoor Propane ((Charley))
Re: Gelatine finings (STROUDS@cliffy.polaroid.com)
Blue Whale Ale ("Toler, Duffy L.")
Two question about Noonan's _New Brewing Lager Beer_ (Mike Swan and Kathy Goldman)
RE: MORE Beta A - if you care. (Steve Alexander)
longshot hazelnut brown ale (Annetmark@aol.com)
Re: What's the use of HDB? ("CHUCK HUDSON, ER LAB 3-2865")
Efficiency up from 25 pts to nearly 34 pts! (Keith Reding)
Brewing (David Root)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: homebrew@infomagic.com (Jeff Handley & Gene Almquist)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:55:19 -0700
Subject: Made in the Shade IV (Homebrew Competition)
Greetings to all:
On August 17, 1996 there will be an AHA sanctioned homebrew contest held
here in Flagstaff, AZ. If anyone would like to enter their prized homebrews
please E-Mail us directly: outpost@homebrewers.com and we will send via
e-mail(in a MS Word format) all the necessary information. Entries must be
sent between Aug 7th-Aug 14th. If you happen to be in Flagstaff or Arizona
at that time you may want to come to the festival. It's a real blast.
Thanks, Jeff Handley
********************************************
* Jeff Handley***outpost@homebrewers.com *
* Homebrewers Outpost-Flagstaff, Arizona *
* http://www.homebrewers.com *
* *
* Homer: "Thanks for coming to my party. *
* Wow, you brought a whole beer keg!" *
* Barney: "Yeah. Where can I fill it up?" *
********************************************
------------------------------
From: John Wilkinson <jwilkins@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 14:00:25 -0500
Subject: RE: Hole in the Gott
In hbd #2121 Chuck Wettergreen described making the bulkhead penetration
on a Gott cooler. No offense, but there is a lot easier way. This has
appeared here several times so I can't claim credit but apparently not
everyone is aware. Get a mini-keg rubber bung from a local homebrew shop
and insert it in the hole left after removing the spigot. No cutting
or invalidating the warranty, as in Chuck's method, but I think easier.
The hole in the bung is 1/2" and standard tubing fits without leaks.
John Wilkinson
------------------------------
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL@AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:15:33 -0700 (MST)
Subject: more Rodenbach factoids
Steve stroud wrote:
> Also, AlK sez:
>
> > For the record, I personally get no acetic (vinegary) character
> >in either of the Rodenbach beers.
>
> You didn't taste the right bottle :-).
>
> Seriously, there is extremely wide variation from oak barrel to oak barrel
> at Rodenbach. A member of our local homebrew club (Sarah White)had a very
> personalized tour of Rodenbach a couple of years ago. She walked around
> the brewery with Peter, tasting samples from many of the 294 aging barrels.
> Sarah reported that the variation between aging tanks was fascinating, one
> would be lactic, another acetic, another like New England style cider.
>
Part of this variation might have been due to the fact that they are not all
the same age. Each barrel was filled at a different time. But indeed the data
does indicate a variation in the "old" beer and blending plays a key role in
the taste fo the Grand Cru. It also of course plays a role in the regular
Rodenbach beer, which is a blend of 4 parts "young" beer and 1 part "old" beer
according to the disertation I have.
> Al, you also didn't fully quote Wheeler, he clearly stated that the acidity
> of Rodenbach Grand Cru may be mellowed by extended aging - this is exactly
> the same discussion that has been going on regarding esterification in the
> lambic digest. The Brett activity in the aging barrels may be enough to
> get the acetic acid level close to or below threshold
Actually it is felt the acetic acid comes from acetobacter whcih grow at the
air wort interface in the vats.
Ethyl Lactate Ethyl Acetate Acetic acid lactic acid
Blended 40-106 ppm 25-39 ppm 1155-1549 1808-3296
(n=6)
Grand Cru 215-289 92-127 1511-2489 4248-6272
refermeneted 361-483 61-167
gueuze
filtered 107-188 33-68
gueuze
The data for the gueuze is about 20 years old. Rodenbach does not have the
large 2,3 butanediol concentration of gueuze since it has no initial enteric
fermentation. The brewery only washes the yeast when the lactic bacteria count
exceeds 5% (this is not a typo). lactobaccillus and pediococcus are the two
lactic bacteria involved. Lacto initially (first 4-5 weeks) and pediococcus
parvulus when the beer is in teh oak vats.
the rate of lactic acid formation and acetic formation in the barrels varies
but after 24 months they all reach about the same level (+/- 1000 ppm) ;-)
Jim
Just Say no to Wyeast
------------------------------
From: Gregory King <GKING@ARSERRC.Gov>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:26:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: brewing without a Tesla coil
In HBD #2122 Russell Mast <rmast@fnbc.com> wrote:
>perhaps it should occasionally be re-emphasized that you CAN make good beer
>without a slide rule and a tesla coil.
Yeah, right. Next you'll be telling folks that they don't need a mass
spectrometer either.
:^| (I *am* smiling)
Greg King
gking@arserrc.gov
------------------------------
From: paa3983@dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 15:18:54 edt
Subject: What is Aeration anyway???
HBDers,
I asked this question on the HBD a few months ago and got the equivelent of a
few dumb stares for responses. With the talk about pure O2, Industrial O2 and
polluted O2, I'll ask this again:
What does Aerating the wort mean? The reason I ask is it seems all of us are
doing different methods and calling all of them aeration. Me, I shake the shit
out of the carboys til I get a nice head ontop. Am I adding any more O2 than
already was in the wort? No. Does it seem to help the ferment? I guess so.
Then some of you aquarium pump household O2 into the wort. This surely is
adding O2, but it isn't pure O2 is it? Then there are others who inject pure O2
from medical tanks or welding tanks.
So what is it? Am I shaking my ass off for nothing? Does the yeast care what
method is used? If aeration means adding more O2 than is already in the wort,
than why even shake?
Mike Spinelli
Cherry Hill NJ
------------------------------
From: George_De_Piro@berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:30:19 -0700
Subject: HBD access, HBD Jr.
I don't like non-brewing topics, so I'll be as brief as possible.
Some of us only have access to the net through E-mail, therefore this
is the only way we get the HBD.
HBD Jr.: Who would answer the questions in a forum for beginners?
George De Piro (Nyack, NY)
------------------------------
From: "Donald A. Put" <daput@pe.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:03:28 +0000
Subject: Gelatine finings
Steve (strouds@polaroid.com) writes:
>It is worth noting that Don Put perpetuated this myth about gelatin in
>a recent issue (Vol 4, #1) of Brewing Techniques. His article on
>clarifying beers stated that one shouldn't boil gelatin/water. I was
>surprised that no one write a Letter to the Editor on that one.
>Pierre?
If either of you would like to write a Letter to the Editor,
I'd be happy to get it published as I think clearing up this myth--if
it is a myth--would be an important byproduct of the column.
ALL of the texts I consulted in preparing the article stated that
gelatine shouldn't be boiled for use as beer finings. I also talked
to Knox--they are now part of the Nabisco company (800) 566-9435--and
asked them why they only suggest preparing gelatin by "stirring over
low heat until gelatine is completely dissolved." The answer I got
was that at "boiling temperatures the gelatin breaks down and results
in incomplete setting once it cools." Now, I'm not sure this would
affect its fining properties, and I'm not a chemist, so I'd welcome
any discussion by those more knowledgeable than myself.
don
Idyllwild Brewing Company--Classic Metal Specialties
Idyllwild, CA
daput@pe.net
------------------------------
From: Bill Rust <wrust@csc.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 15:52 EDT
Subject: Weddings: Average Beer Consumption
Greeting Brewmeisters:
I'm busily brewing several batches of beer for a wedding (mine), and I got
to second guessing the amount of beer needed for a large group of mixed
company. The bride and groom are pushing 40 (I like to think I'm in my
'Brewing' prime...) and we are expecting about 175 at the reception.
A young friend (25) of mine just got married and had 650 people at the
reception (uh, I think they air-dropped the invites). They drank 8 half
barrels (of AB-type products, mind you). Taking into account grandparents,
little kids, non-drinkers, serious party-goers and all, I make it to be
approx. 24 oz./person (yes, that's 2 12 oz. beers each, but it's regardless
of whether they are drinking or not). So, for my party, can I assume
roughly 6 corny kegs? Any of you folks have any experience estimating this
sort of thing?
Just for the record, I *am* making 6, but I also will have a half barrel of
AB-type beer (required for the hall, and for the homebrew-challenged) as a
buffer. Also, I'm making all the beers in the 5% alcohol range (2 helles, 1
rauch, 1 pale, 1 scotch (6.5%), 1 stout). We'll probably have 2 cornys and
the AB tapped at any one time.
Also, Shawn: I had a problem getting unsubscribed, and immediately
resubscribed several times from the system also. I seem to be back on now.
I'll cross my fingers.
Guess that does it for today. Skol.
------------------------------------------------------
Bill Rust, Master Brewer |
Jack Pine Savage Brewery | Das bier trinken ist gutes
Established 1985 (NACE) | essen. -IMMANUEL KANT
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: "Huyck, Randall W." <rwh0303@hub.doh.wa.gov>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 12:48:36 -0700
Subject: What's the use of HBD
Alan McKay asks about the need for an e-mail HBD. Speaking only for
myself, I don't have any access to Internet functions other than e-mail.
The current form of HBD is the only way I know of to get the type of
information it offers. I am also a net novice, knowing nothing about any
net functions like ftp, etc. with the sole exception of e-mail. If
better options are available to users like me, I'm willing to explore
them.
Randall W. Huyck
Travel Desk
Office of Financial Services
Washington State Department of Health
MS: 47901
Voice: (360) 753-0711
Internet: RWH0303@hub.doh.wa.gov
------------------------------
From: "J. Rigney" <rigneyja@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:15:16 -0400
Subject: Re: What is Aeration anyway???
Mike,
Shaking the shit out it seems to work for me! The yeasties don't seem to
mind, just as long as they get a fair start. I don't think you shakin'
for nuthin'!
Jim
- - ------
> What does Aerating the wort mean? The reason I ask is it seems all of
us are
> doing different methods and calling all of them aeration. Me, I shake the
shit
> out of the carboys til I get a nice head ontop.
> So what is it? Am I shaking my ass off for nothing? Does the yeast care
what
> method is used? If aeration means adding more O2 than is already in the
wort,
> than why even shake?
>
> Mike Spinelli
> Cherry Hill NJ
>
------------------------------
From: korz@pubs.ih.lucent.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 15:17:59 CDT
Subject: male hops/cold, flat beer
Peter writes:
>male hops cause seeds in female hops (whow!) and those seeds contain oil,
>which have a negative influence on the formation of foam. According to prof.
>dr. de Keuckeleire is this the reason why the male hops will be removed from
>the female hops.
With all due respect, there is plenty of oil already in hops (as much as
2.3% w/w or more in some varieties). The aromatic qualities of the hops
come from their oil. Furthermore, there are quite a few seeded hops grown
in the UK. I don't think that the good doctor is right about this. I
have read that the reason that most growers don't want male hops is because
they don't want the hops expending energy making seeds... they want all
the energy of the hops going into making lupulin. Another reason I would
imagine <speculation mode on> that a hop grower would not want wild male
hops around is because they are trying to grow a single variety of hop. If
say, their Saaz got pollenated by a Cascade it is possible that they could
get some wild cross- breed growing amongst their Saaz... <speculation mode
off>
***
Ron writes:
>The bottles
>carbonate at around 70 deg. F for three weeks and have great carbonation.
>When I put the beer in to the fridge to cool them down for drinking, I
>loose almost all of the carbonation. When I poor the beer I don't get a
>foamy head like I do when the beer is at room temp.
How much headspace are you leaving? If you have a very small headspace
(less than 1/2" I would say) you can impede the carbonation of the beer.
Beer will hold a lot less CO2 in solution at 70F than it will at 50F so
when you open one at room temp, quite a bit more CO2 will come out of
solution than if you open one at 50F. The beer just holds more of the
CO2 at 50F. There will always be more apparent carbonation at room temp
than at 50F.
If your bottles are filled normally, then I would start to look for
sources of measurement error: gallons of beer, ounces of sugar, etc.
If you have 6 gallons of beer and think you only have 5, that can
result in 17% less carbonation than expected.
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korzonas@lucent.com
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas
------------------------------
From: mikehu@lmc.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 13:49:41 PDT
Subject: RE: Tips on BrewFest
Russ Hendry Writes:
>I'm going to take in the Oregon Brewfest this weekend in Portland, anyone have
>any last minute tips on how to enjoy it to the fullest? Other tours & brewpubs
>which are a "must see" for an avid brewer on his one time sojourn to "Mecca"?
Russ - The biggest recommendation I can make is to get there EARLY! This event
is immensely popular, with locals and "pilgrims" alike. This year looks to be
the biggest yet. I would also recommend getting the "package deal" when
entering. This includes a souvenir mug, guide book, and several beer tokens.
This is worth it just for the book alone - it's an excellent guide.
A must try is the "Golden Rose" Brewed by Hair Of The Dog Brewing. Excellent
bottle conditioned strong Belgian ale. Here's a short list of other great
brew-pubs to checkout while you are here: Lucky Labrador, Portland Brewing,
McMennamins Edgefield, Bridgeport Brewery, any McMennamins (there is ~30 in
the area - try the Hammerhead) I'd recommend against Norwester and Rock Bottom.
There is much better beer to be found elsewhere, IMO.
Check out the Brewfest homepage at:http://www.jhw.com/%7Ejhw/brewfest/
Ill see you there Friday!
Mike H. - languishing in Beervana
------------------------------
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL@AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 14:00:56 -0700 (MST)
Subject: "Infected" Beer
A few things about beer now and in the past. In the past most beer was
fermented or aged in wood vessels of some sort. Studies have shown that wood
even after cleaning and sanitizng with modern methods still harbors significant
levels of microorganisms. Cider in England is still fermented in large oak
tuns and the wood is infected with microorganisms that will survive in the
selective environment of apple juice and cider. Apple juice is usually
contaminated with lactic acid bacteria.
Rodenbach and lambic are modern examples of beers where the brewery is a
microenvironment for a selective group of microorganisms. They have the
"right" infection. But only certain microbes will survive in a brewery. The
wort is of a low pH and over time becomes alcoholic and anaerobic. So not all
organisms will survive in such a place.
The same was prbably true in breweries of the past. They probably had a
certain level of "infection" with mainly lactic bacteria. Beer was served as
is caks ale today when it was relatively young. Bacteria is inhibited by hops
and thus kept in check. When the lactic bacteria at Rodenbach is taken from a
16 ibu environemnt (the level in the beer) to a 30 ibu environment their growth
is greatly inhibited. But they will grow given enough time.
Regarding stale beer well one man's stale bread is anothers croutons. As
others have said it is quite likely brewing in England in the past was somewhat
like brewing in Belgium today. Wtih out analytical parameters it is hard to
say what beer in the past really tasted like. Not to pick on Al, but here is a
very good example of my point. He says he can't taste the acetic acid in
Rodenbach. Well it is quite likely that some of the writers and historians of
the past also had their own perceptual blind spots. Thus we really don't know
what "stale" beer was.
Jim
------------------------------
From: "Herb B Tuten" <herb@zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 17:05:12 -0500
Subject: Keg Conversion
I'd like to convert a keg into a boiler, and have read many
posts about welding a nipple or coupling to the wall. I've
read so many success stories of both methods. My question
for the collective is: Does anyone have horror stories about
keg conversion? (i.e. 'Here's where I went wrong ....') I
know the keg conv faq recommends a coupling, but both
nipple and coupling seem equally versatile. Also, brass vs.
stainless steel - same question.
Cheers,
Herb
herb@zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us
------------------------------
From: "Brian P. Colgan" <bcolgan@sungard.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 17:25:03 EST
Subject: Drilling Stainless Steel
"Braam Greyling" writes:
>>>
Hi,
I am busy converting kegs into a two tier kind of brewery.
I have got a circular plate that fits exactly in the bottom of my
kegs. I want to drill it full of holes so that I can use it as a
false bottom in my mashtun-keg.
The SS is very hard. What lubricant can I use while drilling the ss ?
<<<
I just did the same thing for my three tier brewery, and I must say that buying
a 'Phil's Phaser' was the best investment in brewing equipment ever!!!
I took a ss plate, set the phil's phaser on wide angle, and sliced off a 1/8
inch section. Then I set it to it's narrowest beam setting, and before you
could say 'beam me up Scotty', I had my false bottom looking like Romulan
Cheese!
No affiliation, blah blah blah, just a very happy customer!
:>)
Brian Colgan "Every one has to believe in something."
bcolgan@sungard.com "I believe I'll have another homebrew."
h:(610) 527-8896 / w: (215) 627-3800
Radnor, PA.
------------------------------
From: cburns@spider.lloyd.com (Charley)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 22:04:57 GMT
Subject: Indoor Propane
motten@fcmc.com ([Michael Otten]) asks:
>I am currently in the planning stage of creating a Brauhaus in my basement.
... my concern right now is safety. I have heard all the warnings about not
using propane cookers indoors, but are there any which are safe for indoor
use (other sources of heat are currently unavailable) ?
<snip>
Mike: Serious. The concern about Propane is not CO. It is the propane
itself.
<snip>
Guy Gregory
I've been using propane to heat my house and cook my food in the kitchen for 2
1/2 years with
absolutely no problem (hasn't gon e "boom" yet). Millions of people use it in
rural communities
because its cheaper than electricity (by a long shot) and natual gas just isn't
available in places
like where I live (on a mountain side). I don't understand the paranoia here. A
couple of years ago
we had exploding propane tanks up in the very high country where they had
record snowfall and the
propane pressure regulators got frozen under a LOT of snow. Then they lost
their seals and leaked a
lot of propane into cabins that ended up exploding, but we're just talking
about small tanks inside
a basement aren't we?
I say go for it Mike.
Charley
------------------------------
From: STROUDS@cliffy.polaroid.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:08:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Gelatine finings
I had a talk with Dr. John Dolphin, manager of R&D at Kind & Knox
Gelatin, Inc. in Sioux City, IA concerning boiling and its effect on
gelatin's gelling ability. Here is what he told me:
Gelatin is isolated from animal by-products. The exact process depends
on the source of the gelatin (bones, skins, etc); here is the sequence
from cow bones:
1) The cleaned and chipped bones are treated with HCl. This dissolves
the CaCO3 away from the collogen (the Ca salts are reprecipitated as
CaPO4 and used as animal feed).
2) The rubbery pieces of collogen are treated with lime in order to
hydrolyze primary amides. This process takes up to 60 days.
3) The material is then treated with various temperatures of water.
The lowest temperature used is around 135 deg F, the highest is
boiling (for up to several hours). Each temperature pulls out
different 'Bloom' ranges of gelatin. The Bloom number ranges from
~300 for the 135 F extraction to ~100 for the 212 F extraction (the
number is a measure of the weight in grams it takes to depress the
surface of a standard gelled mixture 4 mm, hence the larger the Bloom
number, the greater the gelling ability).
Food grade (i.e. 'jello') gelatin contains a broad range of Bloom
numbers with a maximum around 250.
4) At this point the extracted gelatins are further purified, graded,
dried, packaged, etc.
Dr. Dolphin stated that boiling gelatin _can_ lower its Bloom number;
however at neutral pH this is a slow process and boiling for a few
minutes would have little if any effect. He was very skeptical that a
brief boil would significantly affect gelatin's fining ability. He
did say that boiling at a high or low pH could hydrolyze the protein
bonds more rapidly and one should be careful in this situation (I
infer from this that boiling gelatin in wort would degrade it faster
than boiling it in water).
Regarding Nabisco and Knox: Lipton is the former owner of Knox.
They sold the production rights to Kind (of Germany) and kept the
'Knox Gelatin' trademark for themselves. A couple of years ago,
Lipton sold the 'Knox Gelatin' trademark to Nabisco. Nabisco does not
produce gelatin, they buy it from other producers and repackage it.
When you call Nabisco, you get their customer service reps. They do
not want you to boil their gelatin because they think that you may
boil it for 30 minutes with fruit juice, ruin its gelling properties,
and get angry at them. They want to make things as easy and foolproof
as possible for their customers! For the purposes of making a dessert,
it is not necessary to boil gelatin, just heat it enough to dissolve
it then chill it. Dr. Dolphin said that if you pester Nabisco enough
with questions they can't answer, they will eventually refer you to
him or one of the other producers :-).
Don, you are right that all texts state that one should not boil
gelatin when using it for fining but I suspect that this is one of
those old brewing beliefs that never got challenged and has just been
repeated over the years. I think that rather than say 'don't boil',
texts should say 'don't boil for an extended period of time.'
You might want to go back and look at Pierre's postings on gelatin
in HBD's 1715 and 1716 for a nice explanation and an experiment
which demonstrates the stability of gelatin in boiling water.
Cheers,
Steve
************
strouds@polaroid.com
************
------------------------------
From: "Toler, Duffy L." <TOLERD@cdnet.cod.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 18:02:00 PDT
Subject: Blue Whale Ale
Greetings!
I am looking for input on recipe formulation/evaluation/generally accepted
brewing principles.
A case study:
In the summer issue of Zymurgy, there was a recipe listed for Blue Whale
Ale. It seems like an interesting brew to try, so I am contemplating
brewing it. I am troubled by the hopping schedule and how drinkable the
beer would be. For space's sake, I have only done a synopsis of the
recipe. If you would like the unabridged recipe and the rather novel
fermentation instructions, drop me a line & I'll shoot it off to ya.
8 lb Alexander's pale malt syrup
1 lb 20 L caramel malt
1 lb 40 l caramel malt
Hop Schedule:
1.25 oz Nugget (14.6%) for 90 min.
1.25 oz Chinook (11.8%) for 90min.
.75 oz Willamette (4.4%) for 20 min.
.75 oz Centennial (10.3%) for 20 min.
.5 oz Perle (6.6%) for 20 min.
.5 oz Chinook (11.8%) for 20 min.
1.75 oz Centennial (10.3%) dryhopped in secondary
Assumptions:
A. I calculated the IBU's to be in the neighborhood of 170 using both
BrewWiz and by Papazian's formula in NCJOHB.
B. Pale Ale/IPA stylistic guidelines for bitterness would be 30-70 IBU's
max, according to Papazian and Miller. (Dave Miller, not the heart of the
hops guys.)
My questions are:
1. Did I figure the IBU's right?
2. If #1 is correct, will this be *way* overdone on the hops to the point
of not being drinkable?
3. Am I placing too much faith in stylistic guidelines? I know they are
important when brewing to a style for entering in contests, but should they
be used as a benchmark for evaluating a recipe before you brew?
My gut tells me to keep the hop schedule but to reduce the individual
amounts of hops. I guess I'm looking for validation from some of our more
experienced brewers!
Thanks!
Duffy Toler
tolerd@cdnet.cod.edu
------------------------------
From: Mike Swan and Kathy Goldman <goldswan@cyberramp.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:09:13 -0500
Subject: Two question about Noonan's _New Brewing Lager Beer_
I've been reading Greg Noonan's revised and expanded book and came
across two points that are contrary to what I had believed (no, they don't
have anything to do with either mash temperatures or ester formation).
First, in discussing decoction mashing, Noonan writes that boiling
the decoction "deoxygenates the mash", reducing hot side aeration. (page
135) I had thought that boiling did nothing to reduce hot side
aeration---if it did, why would aeration of the sparged wort be a problem,
you could simply reduce it later in the boil. Am I missing the point here?
Second, in discussing finings, Noonan writes that gelatin is not
effective *unless* the beer temperature is dropped below 50 degrees F: "The
beer must be colder than 50 degrees F (10 degrees C) for gelatin to react
with the ferment; the closer to freezing temperature the beer is, the more
efficient the action of gelatin fining will be." (page 195). I realize
that this book is geared towards brewing *lager* beers, still is Noonan
correct about gelatin. If so, I think a lot of us ale brewers are just
wasting our time using gelatin to fine our beer.
Mike Swan
Dallas, Texas
mswan@fdic.gov
goldswan@cyberramp.net
Mike Swan and Kathy Goldman
Dallas, Texas USA
goldswan@cyberramp.net
mswan@fdic.gov
------------------------------
From: Steve Alexander <stevea@clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:21:59 -0400
Subject: RE: MORE Beta A - if you care.
(very briefly - and apologies in advance)
1) David R. Burley in HBD #2118 writes that he only saw theory and
unrepresentative laboratory experiments in my post.
]]'The Chemistry & Technology of Enzymes', Henry Tauber, 1949
I had cited has commercial mash, enzyme assay vs time and temp data.
2) He also argues that my experiment (yet to be posted) on a 70C
infusion mash should include protein rests and common brewing yeast.
A protein rest clouds the beta-amylase activity issue and reduces the
validity of the result, and shouldn't effect the apparent attenuation.
Forced fermentation and the use of champagne yeast are well accepted
means of determining wort fermentability.
3) D.B. writes ...
>I thought you were arguing that enzyme kinetics were abnormal with
>exceptional temperature coefficients,
'Abnormal kinetics' is David's term. There is nothing 'abnormal' about
the two different kinetic models for activation and degradation. They
operate on two different mechanisms as explained in the post and
references of HBD#2108.
- ---
David has recently ceased to post additional supporting information
toward his point of view that beta-amylase survives substantially in
'normal' mashes at 70C against the more accepted view. The onus of
proof is David's. It is David's task to provide evidence to refute the
kinetic model, refute the rates, or propose an improved experiment,
agreeable to both sides, which demonstrates his point.
I've asked David that we take this discussion off-line until
additional information and/or a resolution is available. If anyone
else would care to be included in an email list discussion
please drop me a (very) short note w/ a return email address.
(again sorry for the bandwidth usage)
Steve Alexander
------------------------------
From: Annetmark@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 20:09:20 -0400
Subject: longshot hazelnut brown ale
Darrin Pertschi wrote
>>I recently enjoyed (REALLY ENJOYED) a Longshot Hazelnut Brown Ale. Can
anyone recommend an appropriate amount of Hazelnut extract to use for 5 gal.?
I am a new brewer and a lurker on the HBD for several months now. I am going
to delurk to put in my 2cents in response to this question. the roundabout
answer also involves confessing to a stupid brewer trick.
I have been purchasing some of my supplies mail-order from Heart's in Orlando
(no affiliation, just satisfied yatta yatta). In their catalog is the recipe
(from one of their brew club members) that became the Longshot Hazelnut. I
decided to give it a try. The recipe calls for 1& 1/2 bottles (1 oz bottles)
of the extract in a 5 gal batch. Well, I decided to go easy and use only one
bottle of the two they sent. I had a batch of Porter that was also in
secondary and my stupid brewer trick was that I mistakenly grabbed the wrong
carboy and before I knew what I was doing, I had created a new, unintentional
recipe for Hazelnut Porter (I know, I know, you can take that relax, have a
homebrew a little too far!).
Anyway, I thought maybe it will be a fortuitous accident. The next week I
went ahead and bottled the Nut Brown Ale with the remaining bottle of
extract. To shorten this overlong story, after waiting a month on the Porter
and 3 weeks on the Nut Brown Ale, I tried them and found the hazelnut extract
flavor to be overwhelming in both. To my taste they are both almost
undrinkable. Really a shame too, as the Porter tastes excellant otherwise.
I am keeping both batches at the back of the storage area and plan on
sampling from time to time in the hope that they will mellow. So my advice to
Darrin would be to go really easy on the extract.
And by the way, thanks to all of you for the HBD. As a new brewer, it has
been by far my best source of information and inspiration.
Mark Tumarkin
Brewery in the Jungle
Miami, FL
annetmark@aol.com
------------------------------
From: "CHUCK HUDSON, ER LAB 3-2865" <CHUDSON@mozart.unm.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:50:20 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: What's the use of HDB?
I agree, The system I use at work will not allow USENET.(Reading good, Posting
bad). It is a pain to read an article on USENET, take notes then sign on to
e-mail to send a reply. HBD is a great way to exchange ideas, discuss BEER.
We all know that Shawn and AOB have had more than there fair share of problems
with the HBD, but hey if you use a computer let me introduce you to Mr.
Murphy,( ie Murphys Law).also remember the post about "if computer systems were
like beer.... Just my .02 worth.
TTFN
Chuck Hudson
chudson@mozart.unm.edu
"Give a man a beer and he wastes an hour
Teach a man to brew and he wastes a lifetime"
My wife and I don't know where she heard it.
------------------------------
From: Keith Reding <kreding@biotech.aphis.usda.gov>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 23:48:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Efficiency up from 25 pts to nearly 34 pts!
I fixed my lauter-tun efficiency problem that to the suggestion on HBD.
I was using a rectangular 58 qt cooler with a 4 rod manifold as the
drain. The outer 2 rods ran were positiioned near the sides of the
coller the the inner rods were near the middle. This was giving me only
25 pts extraction per lb of grain per gal of extract.
AFter removing the outer 2 rods, my efficiency went to 33.5 pts. I
mashed 20.5 lbs of grain (most pale malt) with about 5 gal of water then
sparged with 8 gal of water. The temp in the grain bed was 75 C. I
collected 11 gal of wort at 1.064 OG! This is the best I have got since
switching from my 5-gal Phil's system.
I assume what was happening was that the sparge water was going down the
sides of the coller to the outer rods preferentially because of lower
resistance. By having only the 2 inner rods as drains, the liquid is
forced to travel through the grain bed.
Anyway, now it seems to work great.
Thanks for all of the suggestion on how to fix it.
- ------------
Keith Reding
------------------------------
From: David Root <droot@cris.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:13:02 -0700
Subject: Brewing
Things are going good. I am building a 1/2 barrel brewery in the
garage. I Found 1/2 kegs and 1/4 kegs for $10 EACH. I bought 2 1/2
barrels and one 1/4. The 1/4 is for a brewpot when I make 5 gallon
batches and the other two are for making 10 to 12 gallon batches of all
grain beer. I will cut the tops out with a plasma cutter and use them
for mash, latur, and brew kettle. These were bought at the local
beverage store. I am going to brew my first 5 gallon batch of beer this
sunday.
The yeast is started and I have a 5 gallon steel Igloo cooler for a
mash tun. I copied the JS easymash for the igloo cooler and am going to
brew the first ALL GRAIN batch in the 1/4 (7.5 gal) keg. I owe all
this to the HBD I have been reading it for about 3 months and have
learned a lot. Thank you all for the inspiration. I will post how it
comes out.
|Thanks for all the knowledge droot@concentric.net David Root
Lockport NY
------------------------------
End of Homebrew Digest #2123
****************************
