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HOMEBREW Digest #2141
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1996/08/11 PDT
Homebrew Digest Sunday, 11 August 1996 Number 2141
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!
Contents:
Bottle baking is OVERKILL! ((Mike Spinelli))
fruit beer musings ((SPEAKER.CURTIS))
Re: Recipes (Jim Thomas)
PET bottles/AOB & GABF/Non-brewing topics/Zip City ((David C. Harsh))
When to pick hops ("skreis")
Decocting wheat beer ((Mike Spinelli))
Toronto Brew Pubs/Cidre (Esbitter@aol.com)
Secondary fermentation ((Steve Cloutier))
How Much Fills a 10 Gal Gott (Steve Waite)
RE: Mash-Out ((Clark D. Ritchie))
Secondary / Autolysis (Derek Lyons)
recipes/temp controllers (BOBKATPOND@aol.com)
Cherry Porter (KennyEddy@aol.com)
Errrrr....explosive fermentation ((John W. Braue, III))
Re: Recipe requests ((John W. Braue, III))
GABF cost ("William D. Knudson")
Coors & JS ("William D. Knudson")
Son of Cherry Porter (KennyEddy@aol.com)
Phone # Request (bturnbaugh@kktv.com)
Re: Recipe requests ("Val J. Lipscomb")
Condensation Problems? ("Sharon A. Ritter")
5 Gallon Buckets (HuskerRed@aol.com)
Diacetyl and Wyeast 1084 ((Glenn Mountain))
I'M BAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK! (NOKOMAREE@aol.com)
more dumbness! (NOKOMAREE@aol.com)
5l Kegs (Ken Rich)
Yeast mutation/selection (Domenick Venezia)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: paa3983@dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 16:04:49 edt
Subject: Bottle baking is OVERKILL!
HBDers,
Regarding bottle baking, in my opinion is overkill. Several months ago I
explored this very thing on the HBD. Tried it twice and chucked the practice.
i think it was Russell Mast who wrote to me that he doesn't do jack to his
bottles other than rinse them with water.
Since then,(about 400 bottles ago), I haven't used bleach nor baking. My
procedure:
1 open beer bottle and empty into a glass
2 Immediately (like < 6 hrs.) rinse out bottle 3 times under tap water
and air dry upside down on dish rack.
3 When dry (like an hr) cover bottle top w/ a square of foil
4 Store in bottle case until bottling time.
On bottling day, all I do is take off foil and shoot the Jet Washer in the
bottle with hot tap water, empty and fill w/ beer.
No bleach, no baking no hassles, no infection.
This of course applies only to bottles in which you know contained recently
decanted beer.
Mike Spinelli
------------------------------
From: CSS2@oas.psu.edu (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:15 EDT
Subject: fruit beer musings
There is a lot of discussion among this group regarding fruit beers. I have
made several of them: Rasberry, Blackberry, Peach, Strawberry and mixed
fruit. I have always used real fruit, usually 5 pounds in a 5 gallon batch.
I would usually split the fruit: half in the primary, half in the secondary.
Fresh fruit is typically frozen to help soften it and hold until ready.
I also understand the conventional logic: Fruit added to the primary
loses many of its desirable tastes and smells due to CO2 scrubbing; volatile
esters that give fruit most of its smell and flavor are blown out with the
CO2 that is produced by vigerous fermentation. Fruit added to the secondary
is not as agressively fermented, and more of the esters remain to provide
flavor and aroma to the finished beer.
There are some factors that seem to run contrary to this logic however. I
have tasted beers where only primary-addition fruit is used, and they have
plenty of flavor and aroma. And I have tasted some secondary-addition-only
beers that DO NOT have the amount of aroma and flavor that you would expect.
This happened to me last evening when I was kegging a batch of blueberry beer.
I made a barley-and-wheat based ale, lightly hopped, to which I added 4 pints
of fresh-frozen blueberries to the secondary. I allowed the fermentation to
proceed at 70F for a week and then kegged last eve. I was totally shocked by
the taste: very alcoholic, not much fruit flavor or aroma, and a finishing
gravity of 1.004!!! It seems that the yeasties (Wyeast #1056) had used up all
of the fermentable sugars from the malt, and when the berries were added, they
went to town on them as well. (S.G. was about 1.045 if that helps)
What is a brewer to do? A less attenuative yeast would definitely help (I
used #1338 for a blackberry porter with great results), but I am beginning to
rethink the secondary-addition-only methodology after this last batch. I
could always use some of the fruit essence extracts at bottling, but there is
a lot of good fresh fruit available here in central Pennsylvania (especially
this time of year), and I'd like to utilize some of it. There are probably
other ways to deal with it too; add a couple Campden tablets shortlty after
adding the fruit to stun the yeast; maybe others.
I have a Chocolate Rasberry Stout planned (like one I tasted at T.R.A.S.H. VI
this year), and I am torn about when to add the berries....suggestions???
Fruit beers are very popular these days, and I am curious what the collective
wisdom of the HBD has to say about this. Private email is fine, or post
it...I read the digest every work day - I'll share what I find out if enough
folks are interested.
TIA...Cheers!
Curt Speaker
President, State College Underground Maltsters (S.C.U.M.)
"Beer causes you to digress...and lead a happier life." - M. Jackson
------------------------------
From: Jim Thomas <jim.thomas@telops.gte.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 15:30:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Recipes
Don asks why give up good recipes?..
I agree totally, that one of the most fun aspects of homebrewing is
recipe formulation.
However, while I share a discomfort about giving up recipes which
are good--i.e. competition winners and friends saying "wow". I
think the reality is that NONE of us use exactly similar brewing
techniques; our efficiencies vary wildly, not to mention hop
utilization differences depending on freshness of hops, alpha acids,
etc. Even the most diligent brewer would have a tough time
replicating an exact recipe and producing the same beer you have. To
me, that's one of the cool things about homebrewing. Hell, I have
yet to even try to replicate my own recipes!! I love to tweak
'em--even the very good ones.
Now, about food recipes...that's a horse of a different color. By
and large, most U.S. kitchens possess the same kind of equipment and
cooking techniques are generally very similar. So the possiblity of
someone duplicating a recipe are pretty good. Interesting footnote:
you can't copyright the ingredients for a recipe, but you can
copyright the procedure and instructions used to create a given
dish.
Jim
------------------------------
From: dharsh@alpha.che.uc.edu (David C. Harsh)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:28:56 -0400
Subject: PET bottles/AOB & GABF/Non-brewing topics/Zip City
PET bottles:
As polymers go, PET is relatively impermeable to oxygen and CO2.
Unfortunately, compared to glass, it is REALLY permeable. Note how old two
liter bottles of pop lose their fizz. I have a friend that uses PET
bottles occasionally for lawnmower type beers that he doesn't plan on
aging. It works. As far as coatings to prevent skunking, just put a
bottle of Liberty Ale in a sunny window for a couple of hours and see how
effective brown glass is! Brown polymer coatings aren't any better.
On the GABF and AOB/AHA/ETC.
<cynic mode on> I've never understood how people are surprised that the
AOB and associated organizations don't do what "we" want. After all, I've
never heard about an election for the AHA presidency, nor any other action
as a result of grass roots outcry (the BJCP fiasco comes to mind). The
people involved have financial interests (as in job security) in the
continued success of the organization and as the organization grows it
takes more money to run it. Do the math! <cynic mode off>
On non-brewing topics
I don't like the POLITICAL statements that some people seem
obsessed with throwing in, but I have trouble condemning the ATF discussion
when it was conducted in a civil manner. Non-beer related threads die on
their own if they are ignored as they should be. I will, of course, solve
all the problems in the world when I'm elected Czar, but until then, we'll
have to rely on our own restraint in this area.
Zip City Brewpub
There's one in Manhattan(NYC, not Kansas) around 55th Ave. I wasn't
really impressed by their beers, but I had been elsewhere sampling single
malt Scotch(s) so don't take my lack of endorsement too seriously.
Dave
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
& Dave Harsh &
& DNRC Minister of Bloatarianism O- &
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
------------------------------
From: "skreis" <skreis@kreis.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 15:29:56
Subject: When to pick hops
When is the right time to pick hops? I have a number of vines with
cones forming....How do I know when they are ready?
Steve K
skreis@kreis.com
------------------------------
From: paa3983@dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 16:38:41 edt
Subject: Decocting wheat beer
HBDers,
If one was making a "classic" Bavarian Hefe Weizen with say 60/40 wheat/pale
mix, would it make any sense to only decoct (boil) the wheat malt alone, w/o
any
pale? Since wheat is huskless, wouldn't the wheat by itself eliminate the
tannin extraction problem?
Also, since I routinely add rice hulls in my weizen and rye beers to aid in
sparging, would the rice hulls hurt/help/do nothing when mixed into the
decocted
portion?
Thanks
Mike Spinelli
Cherry Hill, NJ
------------------------------
From: Esbitter@aol.com
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:34:39 -0400
Subject: Toronto Brew Pubs/Cidre
Can anyone suggest good Toronto Brew pubs other than the 2 or 3 listed in
Jackson's pocket guide? Also, I've recently read about the Cidre style of
cider in the latest Brewing Techniques (great magazine, NRJASR* ). They
mentioned that Cidre is available in Quebec but I was wondering if it was
available in Toronto. Anybody know?
Thanks in advance.
Randy Reed
=====================================================
Homebrewers are like dogs teaching each other how to
chase cars. - Ann Reed, Alewife
+-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-+
+ The Local Brewing Company +
+ Stoughton, MA +
+ ESBITTER@AOL.COM +
+ Randy Reed +
+ South Shore Brew Club +
+ (Boston, MA Area - South) +
+-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-+
------------------------------
From: Steve_Cloutier@ATK.COM (Steve Cloutier)
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 18:06:28 -0500
Subject: Secondary fermentation
Greetings braumeisters,
Al says in HBD2139;
>... I, personally, don't use a secondary for 90% of my beers.<
Al, reading this comment startled me. I guess I realized that you could
make some styles of beer very satisfactorily with only a primary
fermentation, but what about lagers and diacetyl reduction? wort
clarification? yeast autolysis? What of other benefits supposedly achieved
by a secondary fermentation?
In no way do I mean to dispute your statement, but it seems to fly in the
face of much of the information that I had (perhaps blindly) assumed was
true. Is 90% of your beer production styles that do well with just a
primary? Are these primarily British and Scottish ales?
My real reason for pursuing this question, is that I have always racked off
the primary as soon as the krauesen fell, usually only 4 or 5 days, and into
a secondary fermenter for whatever additional length of time -2 weeks to 6
months. Eliminating a needless step would seem to be very advantageous if
indeed it is really unneccessary.
Thanks in advance for some elaboration on this.
Steve Cloutier
Scloutie@atk.com
------------------------------
From: Steve Waite <swaite@cougar.sr.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 16:36:46 -0800 (PDT)
Subject: How Much Fills a 10 Gal Gott
Kieth writes (quoting Dion):
>> Did you somehow misunderstand, Keith? Gott Cooler?? An 18# grain
>> bill in *my* 10 gal Gott is 4" from the top. Where is there space
>> for another 10#?? How far from the top was your 20# mash?
>
>Me? Misunderstand? Never! I was obviously referring to *metric*
>pounds ;)
This tweaked my curiosity. I routinely mash twelve pounds in a 10 gallon
Gott cooler for five gallon batches ( actually ~ 6 Gals. ). I use 1.1 quarts
per pound of grist and a copper manifold with no false bottom. While it
would be a stretch, I could double this mash and still fit it in the Gott.
Dion, do you use a false bottom? How much strike water per pound?
Steve Waite
swaite@sr.hp.com
------------------------------
From: ritchie@wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie)
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 18:06:02 -0700
Subject: RE: Mash-Out
Keep in mind that the purpose of the mash out is not exclusivley to end
conversion. Mashing out also loosens fermentable sugars (ever melted sugar
on the stove?) so that when the sparge begins, sugars are rinsed from the
grains and filter through the bed and into the kettle... CDR
________________________________________________________________________
Clark D. Ritchie, ritchie@wnstar.com http://www.wnstar.com/ritchie/
------------------------------
From: Derek Lyons <elde@hurricane.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 22:26:33 -0700
Subject: Secondary / Autolysis
I don't know about Autolysis, but my brews are immensly improved by racking
to secondary. Even my pales show improvement.
------------------------------
From: BOBKATPOND@aol.com
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:18:10 -0400
Subject: recipes/temp controllers
Don writes:<<I for one have given a few recipes away to strangers, but will
give no more.
The beers I make are good -- all of my friends tell me so. Shoot,
Honorable mention and a First Place winners tell me so. I don't know
about you all, but I plan to enter many more competitions and would not
like to compete against myself, err, someone else using my recipe. >>
Do you really think a new brewer, that is looking for recipes, could take a
written recipe, and brew it equal or better than you? Part of the fun of
brewing is sharing recipes and information. I always welcome new recipes and
new things to try. Almost any brewing book has dozens of recipes for new
brewers, so its not like they are a big secret. Maybe you should take your
own advice and relax.......
I found a source for Johnson Controls temperature controllers for $32.00.
Does any one know any thing about this controller?
Bob Morris (bobkatpond@aol.com)
------------------------------
From: KennyEddy@aol.com
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:47:57 -0400
Subject: Cherry Porter
Hi Jan:
I too am in the htroes of making a cherry porter. I just got to the grocery
store in time before the cherries went off the shelf! Here's what I plan to
do:
1) Use Bing cherries. Tart pie cherries and white cherries reportedly don't
come out near as well. About 1 - 1.5 lb/gal is a good place to start; I'm
going to use 1.2 lb/gal (6 lb for 5 gal).
2) Add cherries to the secondary, or after much of the primary fermentation
is done. The CO2 bubbles can "scrub" out lots of aroma, which is what you're
tasting (as opposed to "flavor").
3) Destem the cherries, place them in as many large ziplocs as you need,
suck out as much air as possible, and freeze. When ready to add tothe
secondary, place the bags in ~160F water for 15 - 30 minutes to sanitize.
Allow to cool. Some people talk of adding pectin enzyme at about 100F or
lower to aid clarity, but this may not be an issue with a porter. When at
room temp, smash the fruit while still in the bags and then open the bags and
dump. The freezing reportedly allows more juice to come out, plus it makes
the fruit mushy so it's easier to squish.
4) Be sure you have lots of headroom in the fermenter for the renewed
fermentation that will ensue. Also, when you rack to bottle / keg, use some
sort of filter on the racking cane to strin fruit chunks. I use a hop bag
secured on to the end on the cane, along with the little cap thingy.
5) Chances are you'll have to age it for MONTHS to allow everything to blend
and mellow.
Below I've copied an old post of mine which I submitted tot he HBD back in
January (and which I recently rediscovered while reviewing back-issues for
fruit advice). It includes the recipe and procedure for a wonderful cherry
porter I tried at the time.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Extracted from file: C:\HBD\DIGESTS\HBD1931.HBD
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:36:42 -0500
From: KennyEddy@aol.com
Subject: Fruit in Beer
While I have not (yet) made a fruit beer, I recently tasted a phenomenal
cherry porter which I would like to try my own hand at. The fruit part was
accomplished by first blanching (dipping briefly in boiling water) the
destemmed fresh cherries so as to kill any wild yeast and other bugs. The
cherries were then placed in a ziploc bag and frozen. The porter was made
and fermented about half way (with respect to gravity); the cherries were
then thawed and crushed in the bag, then dumped into the fermenter, skins and
all.
The brewer had sampled the brew every month for the first four months and was
disappointed; when I tried it it was six months old and the brewer was amazed
at the maturation that occurred in those two months. Time is important!
The 5-gal recipe was a pretty generic porter (1 lb crystal, 1/2 lb chocolate,
pale fermentables to taste [about 1.050 OG if I remember right], very lightly
hopped) with 6 lbs fresh cherries prepared as described. The balance between
the porter and the cherry flavors was *perfect*.
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy@aol.com
Nancy Reagan at a "Just Say No" rally: "I didn't intend for this to take on
a political tone. I'm just here for the drugs."
- ------------------------
Hope this helps!
Ken
------------------------------
From: braue@ratsnest.win.net (John W. Braue, III)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:15:47
Subject: Errrrr....explosive fermentation
>saunderm@vt.edu (J. Matthew Saunders) pleads:
>
>I went to bed and woke up to a wonderful/nasty surprise. I cover my bucket
>with sanitized food grade HEAVY plastic wrap. It was puffed up close to 3
>inches above the lip of the bucket. The beer's actual level is a good 3
>inches below the lip of the bucket. (EGAD! half a foot of krausen!!!) It
>was oozing over the lip onto the floor, which was by now quite messy. For
>the first time EVER I skimmed in desperation, trying to reduce the foam. I
>would take the krausen skimmings to the bathroom to dump them only to find
>the level of foam back over the lip. I did this three times. I gave up.
>I put my brew bucket on a clean plastic sheet and went to work.
>Fermentation is all but finished now, a mere 20 hours after it began. Lots
>of mess to clean up too.
>
>Errrrr is this typical of this yeast? If so, and I decide to use this
>variety of yeast again, I need to re-think my primary fermentation.
>
You specified (in a part of you article that I deleted...d'oh!)
that you were brewing a porter. This may be my own prejudice
speaking, but "porter" suggests a high-OG wort.
In my experience, the amount of krauesen generated during primary
fermentation is proportional to the OG of the wort. I never used
(or needed to) a blow-off hose with bitter, whilst a blow-off was
almost invariably needed to prevent an industrial-sized mess with
stouts (difference in OG of about .025, as I recall; I don't know
where my brewing long has gone to).
I would recommend that, if you decide to brew this beer, or any
beer with an OG of over about 1.045 (leaving a little margin for
error), you resort to a blow-off hose....or a tarp to catch the
overflow.
Of course, if your porter had an OG of 1.035, then I'm way off-
base here.
- --
John W. Braue, III braue@ratsnest.win.net
jbraue9522@aol.com
I've decided that I must be the Messiah; people expect me to work
miracles, and when I don't, I get crucified.
------------------------------
From: braue@ratsnest.win.net (John W. Braue, III)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:41:37
Subject: Re: Recipe requests
Don Trotter <dtrotter@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com> suggests:
>
>How many of us give up our recipes?
>
>Seeing all the recipe requests in HBD doesn't make me feel well. Can't
>any of the requesters develop their own recipes? It really isn't
>difficult. A little light reading and a little light math, or a recipe
>formulation program is all it takes.
>
It all depends what you're giving away.
True, anyone can develop a "recipe" for beer, just as anyone can
develop a "recipe" for a chicken dish ("Take 1 lb. of chicken
parts, 2 lb. of sprouts..."). The real question is (or ought to
be): "What will this formulation taste like?".
To answer that question takes a degree of talent seldom found, or a
degree of experience. Since experience comes from bad judgment
(and leads to good judgment), it is understandable than 10,000
novice homebrewers do not want to reproduce my bad judgment in
producing a brew that tastes like stale goat urine.
*That*, IMNSHO, is the real value of a recipe. To assure the
novice: "Mix these ingredients in these proportions, follow these
procedures, and you will end up with a product that tastes like
this." To the more experienced brewer (or chef, or whatever) a
recipe is more of an aide memoire: "I did thus-and-so, and I
ended up with a product that I really liked (or: that I was afraid
to dump, lest my backyard fill up with dead raccoons), so I will
certainly (not) do it again."
>I for one have given a few recipes away to strangers, but will give no more.
>
>The beers I make are good -- all of my friends tell me so. Shoot,
>Honorable mention and a First Place winners tell me so. I don't know
>about you all, but I plan to enter many more competitions and would not
>like to compete against myself, err, someone else using my recipe.
>
The squid who asks: "Can someone tell me how to clone Rogue Dead
Guy Ale?" isn't committing a solecism; he's undertaking a project
that is almost certainly too complex for him, and that will only
end in heartbreak. The brewer who asks: "I tried your Dead Dog
Porter and it was fantastic; how do you brew it?" (or even that
one who says: "I tried your Dead Dog Porter, and it was vile; how
do I avoid making the same mistakes?") isn't necessarily committing
a solecism, either. If you wish to maintain "trade secrets", do
so. If you wish to have everyone in the Western Hemisphere
drinking Trotter ESB, give away the recipe (or open a microbrewery).
But, either way, the value in publishing (or formulating) a recipe
is in the intended end use, not in the act itself.
- --
John W. Braue, III braue@ratsnest.win.net
jbraue9522@aol.com
I've decided that I must be the Messiah; people expect me to work
miracles, and when I don't, I get crucified.
------------------------------
From: "William D. Knudson" <71764.203@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Aug 96 11:37:35 EDT
Subject: GABF cost
Kelly Jones complains about the GABF and how much it costs. Indeed! It cost a
lot of money to put on such a grand affair. Didn't I hear once that the GABF
was a money loser for AOB? I don't know if that's still the case, but the
anuual financial statements for these non-profit organizations are public
record. Anyway, I seriously doubt that the GABF is a financial windfall for
AOB.
HBD has an unprecidented high whiner to contributor ratio these days, and I
just
contributed.
Bill
Ich kann besser Deutsch, wenn ich etwas Bier getrunken habe.
------------------------------
From: "William D. Knudson" <71764.203@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Aug 96 14:13:46 EDT
Subject: Coors & JS
Jack Schmidling speculated that Coors may be toying with the idea of actually
using malt in their beers. Hey Jack who are you to talk, I thought you were the
King of Corn! ;>)
On a serious note, Coors packaging used to list their contents as Barley Malt,
Hops, Yeast, Rocky Mountain Spring Water and modified cereal starch. Years ago
while on the Coors brewery tour, I posed the question to the tour guide as to
why modified cereal starch is used in the formula. The response was "it makes
it taste better". (Hmmm) I recently noticed the that this ingredient was
deleted from the label and replaced with 'rice'.
I'm sure the reason Coors bought the Maltmill (tm) was to investigate and
resolve once and for all the 'Roller Spacing Differential for a Text Book
Crush'
debate once and for all!!!
My concern is that will they let us in on their finding?
Bill
Ich kann besser Deutsch, wenn ich etwas Bier getrunken habe.
------------------------------
From: KennyEddy@aol.com
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:55:17 -0400
Subject: Son of Cherry Porter
One important thing I neglected to metion in my previous post about cherry
porter:
>From what I've gathered (and I think AlK touched on it recently), perception
of fruit in beer relies heavily on *aroma* and *sweetness*, moreso than fruit
"flavor". Since the fruit causes additional fermentation, the alcohol thus
produced "thins" or "dries" the beer (FG's of around 1.000 or even less are
not unheard of). To enhance the fruit character, be sure to brew such that
you leave a higher-than-normal degree of residual sweetness for the fruit to
play off of. Mashing at higher temperature (158F) and/or using ample crystal
and other non-fermentable dextrinous malts and adjuncts will help accomplish
this.
Ken Schwartz
KennyEddy@aol.com
http://users.aol.com/kennyeddy
------------------------------
From: bturnbaugh@kktv.com
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:51:24 -0500
Subject: Phone # Request
Would someone please send me
the phone #
for American Science &
Surplus?? Thanks Bob T.
------------------------------
From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <valjay@netxpress.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 16:58:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Recipe requests
In HBD #2140, Don Trotter asked, "How many of us give up our recipes?"
In my experience, a steady 10 years, almost everyone will give out a
recipe if asked. I cannot remember ever asking for a recipe and being
refused. I've had a micro brewer or two only agree to give me percent-
ages of ingredients- but no flat refusals. In the same vein, I've
never refused to give out a recipe.
Don expressed worry that if someone got his prize winning recipes, they
would beat him in the next competition. Not much faith in your brewing
skills, Don! Maybe you are the one who needs to "Relax........" Home-
brewing is not about competition, however much some (including me) enjoy
that aspect of it. IMHO, this whole thing is about making good beer
with your own hands, making good friends who do the same and all of us
helping the other guy to make good beer. If all it takes is to give
out your "secret formula", that's not much to be part of the most en-
joyable hobby I've come across. Lighten up and learn to share, Don, I
assure you it will come back in kind.
Damn, I'm glad I waited a day to send this, I was really PO'd by Don's
post, when I read it yesterday and the post I wrote then was very
profane.
Keep your kettle boiling,
Val Lipscomb
------------------------------
From: "Sharon A. Ritter" <102446.3717@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Aug 96 23:11:46 EDT
Subject: Condensation Problems?
>>
How can I keep it ( my brewing refrigerator) from condensating and
getting my kegs wet.
<<
I have a similar old style refrigerator (Frigedaire by General Motors -
a classic!) that drips when I have the temperature above 35F. I simply
place a 1" x 8" x 13" pan directly under the small freezer unit, catch
the drippage, and empty it occasionally. I don't let my friends look in
it!
I have always assumed that these refrigerators were not meant to be
running at beer brewing/serving temps and it was these higher temps that
caused the drips.
Dan Ritter in Grangeville, Idaho
102446.3717@compuserve.com
------------------------------
From: HuskerRed@aol.com
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 23:42:09 -0400
Subject: 5 Gallon Buckets
Hello Friends-
I'm think about buying a malt mill and bulk grains. Does anyone have any
opinion on mills!?! Just joking, I've already got a mill picked out. I was
wanting to store the grains in five gallon bucket. How much grain does a
bucket hold? I know farmers store grains for years sometimes, how long can I
store malts?
Also, if you have a good source for enexpensive bulk grains, please drop me
an e-line. TIA
Cheers,
Jason Henning
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Maturity is a high price to pay for growing up. - Tom Stoppard
------------------------------
From: wally@labyrinth.net.au (Glenn Mountain)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:36:38 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Diacetyl and Wyeast 1084
Hello All,
In #2139, Al K writes that Wyeast 1084 (Irish Ale) is notorious for the
strong production of diacetyl. This concerns me as I have just finished
brewing a Stout and a Bitter Ale, both using this yeast. Is there anything
I can do to inhibit the formation of excessive diacetyl in these beers. I
seem to remember some talk on cold storage after fermentation to minimize
diacetyl but believe this was related to lagering. Any ideas ?. Points on
aeration during transfers from Al's post noted.
Thanks in advance
Glenn Mountain
wally@labyrinth.net.au
Melbourne, Australia.
------------------------------
From: NOKOMAREE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:35:40 -0400
Subject: I'M BAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!
Amazing!
Most of you are "Pompous Ponies"......you don't want to have fun with
homebrew........you just want to over-analyze things to
death........................................talk about anal retentive!
Also,
why are so many of you concerned about my sex/and sex life???
Why are so many of you concerned about the length of my penis and whether I
can get it up? (you posted it....not me!) What does that have to do with
homebrewing???................plus you don't even know if I'm male or female.
Why are so many of you concerned about how tall I am.......whether I'm 4 feet
or 7 feet...............what does it matter regarding homebrew???????
Now, down to biz.
Most of you did not even really read what I wrote. I cut to the bone and gave
useful and accurate advice. No running round the parking lot. Direct and
pertinent advise.
You pompous ponies latched on to my word "DUMB" and couldn't let it go.
GIMMMEABREAK!
Read the message before you go ballistic!
What's wrong with you? Do you all just automatically jump on top of someone
who doesn't agree with you??
Wake up and smell the coffee!
Most of you are mean spirited, nasty human beings. You act that way because
you are behind an anonymous keyboard.....so you think you can get away with
awful stuff...........
OK!
My main message is: "KISS" and enjoy.....don't over complicate things!
P.S. Those of you who said I irritated you, or I pushed your hot
button..............thanks.............I did it on purpose!
------------------------------
From: NOKOMAREE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:54:33 -0400
Subject: more dumbness!
and on another note...........
someone from Australia actually tried to imply that I wrote my letters
because I was abused as a child..................that has to be the biggest
DUMBNESS I've ever heard!
What does that have to do with homebrew????????
Are you real???
P.S. venezia@zgi.com is a real BAD BOY! Spank you on the rear!
He has tried to fill up my mail box to overflowing.
I think its funny that some 14 year old kid would do that, but DUMBNESS
BEGETS DUMBNESS!
Watch out! He/she might try to hurt you too!
------------------------------
From: Ken Rich <kjbrew@insync.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 10:39:03 -0500
Subject: 5l Kegs
Seeing all these questions on 5 liter minikegs has prompted me to come
up with a list of suggestions.
Prime the mini-kegs individually with 1 (one) TABLESPOON of corn sugar.
Dispense the first beers under natural pressure. DO NOT add CO2 or pump
the pump until beer quits coming out.
When you do add CO2, only add enough to push the beer out GENTLY. You
should just barely turn the regulator on. Almost as soon as you hear a
hiss, STOP turning.
Treat the tapper for what it really is, a fragile piece of plastic.
Even the metal ones have plastic in crucial areas, plastic bulb holders
in particular. Try to remove the handle as little as possible on the
metal bodied ones.
I hope this helps solve a few problems.
cheers--Ken Rich--
------------------------------
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia@zgi.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 09:03:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Yeast mutation/selection
From: scox@factset.com (Sean Cox) in HBD 2140:
>My thoughts on this (obvious?) paradox is that the yeasts mutate more in
>the homebrew environment (today a porter, tomorrow a pale ale, etc) than
>in the commercial environment (always making the same thing)....
> ...
>....Thus, if you make a particular brew all the time, then you would likely
>not have to worry about mutations of the 50th generation of your beer, but
>if you (like most homebrewers) make everything under the sun, then your
>poor little yeasties are going to have real problems after a while.
Sean,
I think that what you are worried about in the homebrew environment is
not really mutation but selection. And I believe that you are correct
in assuming that the characteristics of almost any yeast will be selected
by your brews and by your process. I do however disagree that this selection
process will be faster in more diverse brewing environments.
By selection this is what I mean. Any population of yeast will show some
distribution of characteristics about the mean value. For example if we
consider the ability to ferment certain trisaccharides. Most of the yeast
in this fictitious population can utilize these sugars at a similar rate.
A small portion of the yeast population can utilize the trisaccharides at
a much faster rate and others can hardly utilize them at all. Such
variability generally forms a gaussian distribution - the familiar bell
curve. Let us also assume that trisaccharides are utilized last by the
yeast after all of the other simpler sugars are gone.
Given the above, if in your brewing process you use both a primary and
secondary fermentation then what may occur is that the yeast that cannot
utilize the trisaccharides will "starve" first, flocculate and cake on the
bottom of the primary. When you rack to the secondary you will leave
these poor trisaccharide utilizers (PTU) behind. What you have done is
partitioned your original yeast population into 2 different populations.
If you now only save the yeast from the secondary over successive
generations under the same conditions you will raise the mean ability to
utilize trisaccharides. If, on the other hand, you only save your yeast
from the primary you will select for yeast with very poor trisaccharide
utilization.
Any characteristic that you can imagine can be selected for. Temp
tolerance, pH tolerance, respirative ability, flocculation, O2
utilization, FAN utilization, etc. and etc. and etc. Very little mutation
is going on, or rather, no more mutation is going on than before you
started selecting, but now your yeast is changing faster. Almost anything
that you do in your brewing process can exert a selective pressure on your
yeast. Do you make starters? Do you use hops in the starters? What temp
do you pitch at? How much aeration do you do? Fermentation temperature?
Do you rouse your yeast? Do you "drop" it, use a secondary, or refrigerate
to clear the yeast? Do you use Irish moss? Do you wear bell bottoms and
plaid, or, god forbid, plaid bell bottoms!?
If you save your yeast and maintain your own yeast bank it is very
important that you save enough of the original stock and in such a way
that you can go back to it periodically to reset your yeast to the
"original" characteristics. This can be difficult with a household
refrigerator/freezer, and is much easier in a household freezer.
Dedicated freezers generally do not go through warm defrost cycles and are
generally much colder than the freezer portion of a refrigerator.
Cheers to all!
Domenick Venezia
Computer Resources
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia@zgi.com
------------------------------
End of Homebrew Digest #2141
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