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HOMEBREW Digest #2082
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1996/06/26 PDT
Homebrew Digest Wednesday, 26 June 1996 Number 2082
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!
Contents:
Distilling/hbd etiquette/pubglasses (Jeff Stampes)
Kegging / Water Analysis / Pumps Questions (RANDY ERICKSON)
Morrone "Cook-All"... advice needed (Dave Riedel)
Enzymes - yet more (Steve Alexander)
esters and pitching rate (awalsh@world.net (Andy Walsh))
Market info (TPuskar@aol.com)
SPENT HOPS & DOGS & MALIGNANT HYPERTHERMIA//SPENT GRAINS AND RABBITS ("Eric W. & Carolyn W. Metzler")
Replicating Ayinger's Yeast (ritchie@wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie))
Dantrolene & Dogs/N2-CO2 tanks/Cynical Dave (Rob Moline)
BITOA CF Wort Chiller, Flow Rates (ritchie@wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie))
Homebrew U BBS (ThE-HoMeBrEw-RaT)
brewing to style ("Sharon A. Ritter")
10 gal. coolers (thaller@bod.net (Tim Haller))
Homebrew feeds (Mike Foster)
*CiDER*,*FiLTER*. (aod@algonet.se (Patrik Andersson))
Potato and Rice......... (aesoph@ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael))
Re- High gravity brewing ("Allan Rubinoff")
my scotch ale (Stetson)
blackberry wheat (Stetson)
malty vs. sweet ("Sharon A. Ritter")
Pub Glass Problem (Steve.Robinson@analog.com (Steve Robinson))
Difficulties IDing Yeasts ("Ing. John Coppens")
distillation/meat grinders/potato and corn (Douglas Thomas)
resubmission #3 ("David R. Burley")
Resubmission #2 ("David R. Burley")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeff Stampes <jeff.stampes@xilinx.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 15:54:08 -0600
Subject: Distilling/hbd etiquette/pubglasses
Michael Aesoph told us he had learned distilling was:
>A) It's illegal
>B) It's dangerous
>C) Don't do it
To which Bryan Gros suggested:
>I can't argue with this advice, but for an alternative view, see Alan Moen's
>article in the back cover of the most recent Brewing Techniques.
It's illegal: You bet it is, so is brewing more than 300 gallons a year.
Its Dangerous: I just had this discussion with a brewer friend of mine
who had brought me some of his moonshine to taste. I'll describe his
simple process, and I'd love to know the dangers. According to him,
this was some leftover mead from a batch he had made. So as an
experiment, he made a still from a keg, a bung, and copper tubing...
nothing else. Heated to 150, he collected the runnings and made a
darn tasty shine (and I hate hard booze). His points re danger were:
1) it's dangerous to try and do the same process to the 80 proof
liquor you already extracted
2) It's dangerous if you use materials not designed for the job (ie,
lead solder, etc...all the things we don't use)
3) It's dangerous if you are unsure how the original liquor was made.
I know this is NOT beer related, so anyone interested in discussing
this with me, strictly for educational purposes, please e-mail
me.
==============================================
hbd etiqutte:
please, please, please, please...edit the messages you include
in your contributions to the hbd! having 4 people respond to a
question, and all including the whole message is a mere annpyance
to those with the undigested version....but for those receiving
the digest, these reptitive, long-winded attributions can be
the difference between a few extra articles squeezing into the
digest on a given day.
<off soapbox>
==============================================
Pubglasses:
I've been known to simply ask the bartender around my third pint,
when it's about half full:
"Excuse me, I know you don't buy the glasses, but since this pint
doesn't hold more than 12 ounces, and I have been buying pints
(which I expect to be 16), I was wondering if you would top this
off for me?"
80% of the time, if you have been treating the 'tender well with
your tips, they will do it with mo complaints.
In the meantime, someone got me thinking...anyone done any research
into if any state departments of weights and measures has any regs
concerning this?
------------------------------
From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE@mid.org>
Date:
Subject: Kegging / Water Analysis / Pumps Questions
John Montgomery had a problem with carbonating his kegs:
>>> Based on the tables and techniques in Zymurgy's Special Kegging
>>> issue of a year ago, I force carbonated a batch of Alt at room
>>> temp (78F). Don't have the table in front of me, but I think it was
>>> around 28 psi for that temp. Came back the next evening and
>>> repeated.
After chilling his beer was flat.
I have always understood "force carbonating" to mean achieving
dissolved CO2 equilibrium as soon as possible by shaking the hell out of
the keg while attached to the gas line until no more CO2 will dissolve.
The same results as "gentle" carbonating, i.e. hooking up the gas at the
same temperature and letting it sit for several days. I have, on occasion,
neglected to put enough force into my force carbonation. Could you
have done the same, John?
I wonder though, would it be possible to reliably force carbonate by
using higher pressure for a short period of time without shaking? For
example (numbers are made up, but order of magnitude) could one use
40 psi for a half hour to achieve the same results as 8 psi for a week?
Has anyone worked out the tables?
**********************************************************
As others have done recently, I've worked up enough courage to ask
the collective about my municipal water analysis:
Chloride 105
pH 7.7
Sodium 54
Sulphate 13.8
Bicarbonate 150
Calcium 55
Carbonate Not Detected
Chlorine Residual (Field Analysis) 0.2
Magnesium 12.6
Total Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 154
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) 252
I'm a little confused that no carbonate is detected with that level of
hardness. Any suggestions as to what this water would be good for?
I just installed a carbon filter (Thanks Marty!) which noticeably removes
the chlorine taste and smell.
***************************************************
While in the hardware store for the aforementioned project, I noticed a
number of Little Giant pumps in the goldfish pond/ decorative fountain
department. These aren't by chance the LG pumps of RIMS fame are
they?
Thanks All -- Randy in Modesto, California
------------------------------
From: Dave Riedel <RIEDEL@ios.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:44:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Morrone "Cook-All"... advice needed
I stumbled across a Morrone "Cook-All" burner today. It's made in Georgia and
rated at 170,000 BTU. It doesn't appear to have any type of flame controller.
Price is $90 Cdn (roughly $65 US).
Has anyone had any experience with this item?
Is an adjustable flame almost a necessity?
Can I simply reduce the inflow of propane via the tank valve?
Is 170,000 BTU serious overkill?
For some reason, where I live, propane cookers are *rare*, so, if this one is
decent, I should probably grab it.
E-mail response is probably the most appropriate...
cheers and thanks,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Canada
- --------------------
------------------------------
From: Steve Alexander <stevea@clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:50:16 -0400
Subject: Enzymes - yet more
David Burley writes ...
>You could also try using a lower ratio of water to
>grist. This will increase the concentration of the enzymes and speed up
>the conversion. I am skeptical, in the absence of data, that enzymes are
>more stable at higher concentrations, as some of the texts and HB books
>would have us believe. I am open to proof on the subject.
Al K responds ...
>I have read about the enzyme stability, but I have never seen anything
>regarding conversion rate being related to mash stiffness (thickness).
>If you have a reference, please post. Thanks.
Initial rate of enzymic reactions is proportional to the enzyme
concentration over a wide range of conc., and this is the basis of
many methods of determining enzyme concentration. This relation falls
out of the Michaelis-Menten kinetics model, and should appear in
chapter one of any textbook. Haldene and Briggs developed a
steady-state kinetic model of enzymes kinetics a bit later. The M-M
equations are only a first order simplified model, there are reasons
why it doesn't exactly fit out amylases, yet it is a very good first
approximation.
As enzymes catalysed products build up the enzymes are often
competitively inhibited. For example beta-amylase becomes less
effective as it's product (maltose) concentration builds up relative
to the substrate concentration. The extra product effectively 'gums
up' the works. In a more concentrated mash you might expect that this
secondary effect would become more significant because of the higher
concentrations of maltose, but until near the end-of-mash the high
substrate (starch) concentration should win out. Incidentally glucose
inhibits beta-A too !
Alpha-A has it's own problems. The activity drops dramatically at the
starch size drops. In fact it drops much faster than the number of
available sites. We should expect that as a 'normal' mash proceeds,
that alpha-A becomes VERY ineffective - mostly spending it's time
reducing starches and large dextrins to smaller sugars and dextrins -
and NOT reducing dextrins to fermentable sugars.
Increased enzyme stability with substrate concentration is a well
documented experimental result for many enzymes. You might ask how
both beta-A and alpha-A survive the 100C+ kilning given to even a pale
malt without some sort of stability increase.
On another note, it has been shown that pure barley beta-A reduces
barley starch to ~73% maltose, ~22% amylose, and the rest are a mix of
sugars and dextrin. Reduction of starch with alpha-A gives a wide
range of mostly smaller polysaccharides, which varies significantly
with the alpha-A source, but only 20% or so of the sugars are
fermentable !! Neither situation is desireable. Couple this with that
beta-A comprises 75 to 85% of the enzymes in malt and the obvious
conclusion is that you don't want to ignore the beta-A.
Dave Burley also noted (specific) activity increases with temperature
while enzymes concentration drops due to thermal lability(denaturing
of enzymes). This view is correct. Specific activity does not
typically drop with increasing temperature as some contributors
suggest. The effect may appear as tho' enzyme activity is lower at
72C than at 62C, but in fact you are just dealing with fewer enzymes.
Steve Alexander
------------------------------
From: awalsh@world.net (Andy Walsh)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:04:36 +1000 (EST)
Subject: esters and pitching rate
Bob Waterfall says:
>><snip>... hence any restriction of cell growth will elevate acetate esters,
by
>>increasing the availability of acetyl CoA for ester synthesis.
>
>Apparently not since Andy presented the following without comment.
>
>>PITCHING RATE: When pitching rate is increased by a factor of 4, ester
>>synthesis is reduced.
>
>Is my assumption that high pitching rate limits growth incorrect?
>
I am really speculating here, so go easy! Imagine a pool of minerals (Ca, Zn
etc.), FAN (amino acids, proteins, ammonium salts), lipids and
fatty acids and oxygen, all good yeast food, that will support a certain
population of yeast. Whether the original amount of yeast pitched was 1% or
10% of the final yeast count would mean comparatively little (1-10%)
compared with (say) doubling the final yeast population by doubling the
supply of the limiting yeast "food" (eg. doubling O2 supply).
It is quite a complicated process as I understand it. Pitching rate has a
much lower correlation with esters than some of the other factors. Some
papers even say it is irrelevant. Also, when they vary pitching rate in the
experiments, the figure they start with to vary is about 1e7 cells per ml,
which is very *high* by homebrewing standards. I just don't know what
happens if you start with 1/10 th of this (or 1/100 th!).
The whole point is that experiments show these contributions I mentioned,
then all the boffins try and imagine theories to fit the data. The acetyl
CoA theory is one that seems reasonably consistent. Don't also forget there
are enzymes at work that also work under different
conditions: synthetases and esterases. Some would argue these are more
important than the acyl CoA availability, but nobody seems to really know
the exact significance of these factors.
I don't pretend to know all the answers on this very complicated topic. I
have just reported some of the stuff I've read on it in the journals. I
emphasise that those interested should go and check the original references.
also, John Wilkinson has a comment:
>>...the unsaturated fatty acids, linoleic (C18:2) and linolenic (C18:3) acids
>>cannot be synthesized by yeast and are derived largely from trub(3).
>If they cannot be synthesized by the yeast, why are their levels higher in
wort
>with higher oxygen levels? What is producing them?
very good point which I missed.
The short answer is, I do not know. The paper I got both the table from and
the statement (Lentini et al), does not clarify this. I did leave out some
of the complete table, which shows C18:2 levels to vary from <1000 ppm with
low trub wort (what I posted) to >6000 ppm with high trub wort (yet
ergosterol levels remain about the same). This tends to support the statement.
David Burley writes:
>What can we expect from a man who grows up in a country which uses the phrase
>"Sheila in the gutter" to remember which side of the road to drive on. {;-)
Now look, mate! I have never heard this expression in my life before! What
are you talking about? Do we run over sheilas after they've had a drinking
binge or something? It's hardly PC eh? While I'm at it, we don't say the
following words in common speech: fair dinkum, cobber, struth, sheila,
brewster. One I do seem to use a bit is seppo.
Andy.
*************************************************************
Wohlgemuth Walsh from Sydney
email: awalsh@world.net (or awalsh@crl.com.au if you prefer)
I *am* from here. Wanna make sumthin of it?
*************************************************************
------------------------------
From: TPuskar@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:20:34 -0400
Subject: Market info
I think my original post may have fallen prey to Shaun's attempt to optimize
delivery of HBD so I'm trying again. Apologies for any duplication and for
this slight diversion from true brewing topics.
My son is working on his MBA and is doing a project on marketing
non-alcoholic beer in Germany. (What a nice boy to pick a topic close to my
heart!) He has asked if I could help by getting info on the market size and
consumption patterns for beer in Germany. I've looked around on the Net and
haven't been very successful. Does anyone have any leads on where he might
find this info? He and I would appreciate any direction or referenceable (is
that a word?) info.
Thanks to anyone who can help
Tom Puskar
------------------------------
From: "Eric W. & Carolyn W. Metzler" <cwmetzler@telplus.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:04:35 -0400
Subject: SPENT HOPS & DOGS & MALIGNANT HYPERTHERMIA//SPENT GRAINS AND RABBITS
Dave Hinkle of Phoenix, AZ inquired about treatment of MALIGNANT HYPERTHERMIA
in dogs who had eaten spent hops.
In humans, malignant hyperthermia can be triggered by general anesthesia,
and treated with intravenous DANTROLENE. A brief Medline search shows that
recent research on this condition is conducted in pigs rather than dogs.
I don't know if the dog version caused by hops is the same as the human
version caused by anesthetics, nor if the same treatment would work. I
know that Operating Rooms for humans keep an expensive supply of dantrolene
on hand for the rare case of malignant hyperthermia. Dunno if vets could
do similarly.
As a family physician, I know a bit more about this condition in humans
- --private e-mail inquiries are fine.
////
A bit closer to the beer world--we sometimes dry out our spent grains and
feed them to our Angora bunnies--they love them!
Eric W. Metzler in Enfield, ME
------------------------------
From: ritchie@wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:39:48 -0700
Subject: Replicating Ayinger's Yeast
All:
Does anybody know what Wyeast [lager] strain comes close to Ayinger's? (for
a Bayerisch Konig Dunkel) Thanks... CDR
<--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><-->
Clark D. Ritchie, ritchie@wnstar.com
World Wide Web: http://www.wnstar.com/ritchie/
------------------------------
From: Rob Moline <brewer@kansas.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:05:16 -0500
Subject: Dantrolene & Dogs/N2-CO2 tanks/Cynical Dave
***********************************************************
This is being sent again, reference to Shawn's post...
************************************************************
Greetings,
BOBKATPOND@aol.com writes;
>I would agree that Dantrolene is expensive but the rest of this statement
is >wrong. Dantrolene comes as a powder and is stable until it is mixed.
Most >hospitals carry A LOT of it. The cost is cheap relative to its
benefit. You >have to give lots and you only have a few minutes to give it.
If you had to >wait for Lifeflight to bring more you would have a dead patient.
>Bob Morris
Well now, we must agree on somethings, yes? It may be stable till
mixed, but like most drugs, it too has an expiration date. Proctor and
Gamble Pharmaceuticals Dantrium IV , currently in stock in one of the 2 fine
medical establishments locally, is available, as per the pharmacist, in
sufficient quantities for one episode of MH, that is, 36 ampoules. Lot
Number 208038 has an expiration date of Sept,'96. Lot Number 209760 was
stocked in-house in May,'95, and has an expiration date of August, '97. The
cost, which to this institution is US $ 59.71, is, of course, cheap relative
to its benefit. (Speculation on the cost to the patient- 300 per vial.)
Larger institutions usually possess enough stock for two episodes.
Now, should such an event occur in our area, the local Army post,
Ft. Riley, would be called upon to make a loan, on the expectation, that
they possess more than the usual stocks, as they must be prepared for such
instances to occur not only in their post hospital, but also in their field
hospitals. I will again state that should episodes occur that exceed ...."1
or 2 cases at any one time."....."further supplies are air ambulanced in,
when necessary."
A correspondent of mine, an Army anaesthesiologist, writes;
>"There was a series of letters to the editor regarding 'other options' to
>immediate dantrolene availability, most of which involved using ambulances
to >whisk it to centers in suburban areas that only stocked a 'starter'
dose."..."I >have been communicating with a vet anaesthetist who feels
strongly that >calling this MH is going overboard. Toxic hyperthermia maybe-
Dypyrone, a cheap >and readily available vet drug would likely be as
effective as dantrolene >without creating untold problems with acquisition
etc."...."The Vet >anaesthetist is working with the NAPCC and the editor of
the NetPet Mag which >lists that article to modify recommendations to
reflect reality and not >hysteria."
Apparently, NetPet has been recommending that owners have muscle
biopsies done on their pets, the tissue frozen and the specimens sent to the
Nat. Animal Poison Control Center, "which would not be able to do anything
with them." And there are a couple of homebrewing vet med students at the
local school (KSU) who are cuurently investigating this. One of them asked
if, due to the alleged similarities between hops and marijuana, would dogs
be laid up if they ate dope. He then mused that he had never observed such
an interaction before...I guess he's studying to be an animal anaesthetist! ;-)
Pat Babcock asks about N2/CO2 cylinders:
I have contacted my supplier and am having a batch of 63/37 % made
up for me. The delivery guy for Linweld has stated in the past that only the
73/27 was available, but that is only due to it being the blend of choice
for those with Guinness on tap. They are more than happy to make any blend
requested, they just don't have it in stock.
My current tanks are known in 'Lindy' nomenclature as an "S" size
cylinder. Scott calls it the same. In Mattheson terms, it's a "Number 3"
cylinder. Others call it a "KA" cylinder. It stands 52 Inches tall,
inclusive of valve cover. The Liquid Gas Association(?) apparently has no
standard nomenclature for cylinder sizes. The label states, "444,021 liter
capacity." When ordering the 1st proposed 50/50, Mark at Linweld stated that
they thought they could only get 120 cu. feet in, whereas the expectation is
142 cu' for my 73/27. But today the picture is brighter, they expect,
through improved filling techniques to get 144 cu' in the new blend. The
cost--I should have looked it up for you, but $30?..$33? It isn't that
expensive.
I asked about the dip tube and the question on liquid state gas
versus gaseous state. He said that the dip tube may or may not be present,
but that all the presence or lack thereof influenced was the filling
proceedure. On a tank with a dip tube you fill the heavier product (CO2)
first, then the lighter product (N2). On a tank without a dip tube, you do
the opposite. He indicated that this was somewhat of a universal concept
amongst refillers when gases of different weights are introduced.
CO2 tanks are filled from dispensing tanks of liquid CO2, while this
ain't necessarily so, (apparently) with N2. Liquid CO2 is dispensed at -200
F, and 400-500 psi. When the tanks are refilled the valve temperature
increases and the pressure decreases due to the throttling action exerted by
the valve, and hence the liquid turns to vapor. The latent heat generally
found in the walls of the receiving tank also work to this effect. He stated
that I could count on a consistent blend throughout the life of the tank.
The only difference I could relate regarding regulators is that the
reg I use on the blend tank is "beefier," (scientific term) to handle the
much greater pressures involved. In fact, when I had to re-order all this
stuff for re-opening, I received a regulator and a plastic bag with a
reverse threaded stem (reverse of a CO2 stem; the stem threads are the same,
the coupling nut threads to the tank are reversed) for blend application.
Had to use a pipe wrench on the shaft to remove the old CO2 stem, and
replace it with the new one, such that you can no longer put this regulator
on a CO2 tank. The point is not that you are unable to use this set-up on a
Co2, but that you can't use a CO2 regulator on a high pressure nitrogen
blend tank, preventing injury from the subsequent explosion of the reg.
Call your local gas supplier for further info.
For more fun, ask me about using super-glue in neurosurgery!
Dave Harsh = Cynical? NAAAAAAH!
Rob (Jethro Gump) Moline
Little Apple Brewing Company (now on tap, "Holy Smoke!!" Peated Porter)
Manhattan, Kansas
"I'm not from there, I just grew up there, and I wish I was back!"
------------------------------
From: ritchie@wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:35:23 -0700
Subject: BITOA CF Wort Chiller, Flow Rates
Does anyone else out there use a BITOA counterflow wort chiller? (Sold by
the Brewer's Warehouse in Seattle, WA.) I ask because after 3 batches with
mine, I can't seem to get my cooled wort below 90~100 degrees.
What I want to know from other users is the optimum flow (of water and wort)
for this chiller and/or the optimum flow (of water and wort) for any CF
chiller. The flow of water for my last batch was around 0.5 gpm and the
flow of wort was also pretty slow yet it still came out too warm. I've got
it rigged up through a pump so I can control both the rate of the water and
the rate of the wort. Thanks... CDR
PS - I realize that I could rig up some sort of ice bath or some other
additional cooling method, but that's not the point.
PPS - I also realize that the ambient temperature has an effect, but then
again, Portland, Oregon, is not exactly known for balmy temperatures.
<--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><-->
Clark D. Ritchie, ritchie@wnstar.com
World Wide Web: http://www.wnstar.com/ritchie/
------------------------------
From: ThE-HoMeBrEw-RaT <skotrat@wwa.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:03:40 -0500
Subject: Homebrew U BBS
Hi all,
You know recently Pat Babcock (Where the hell have you been Pat?) closed his
Homebrew U BBS due to lack of calls into the system.
I know that the net has grown and made finding homebrew info much easier but
we shouldn't forget about the fine homebrew BBS forums around us. They allow
persons of a specific area to discuss homebrew or even find homebrew clubs
near them. I found it upsetting that Pat shut his BBS down last month. The
local Homebrew U BBS in my area (run by Andrew Patrick, BBS #: 847-970-9778)
is a great resource and I would hate to see it die due to lack of interest
or calls.
Many homebrewers don't even know what a Homebrew BBS is or how to find one
anyway. You can view the dial-up locations at the Homebrew U webpage at:
http://sashimi.wwa.com/~andnator
I learned a hell of a lot from BBS systems before any of this great homebrew
stuff popped up on the net and would like to see others enjoy such a great
service.
I will step down from the soap box now. Thanks for the bandwidth.
- -Scott
P.S: psssssssst hey buddy wanna buy a grain mill?
################################################################
# ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT #
# Scott Abene <skotrat@wwa.com> #
# http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page) #
# OR #
# http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat/Brew-Rat-Chat/ (Brew-Rat-Chat) #
# "Get off your dead ass and brew" #
# "If beer is liquid bread, maybe bread is solid beer" #
################################################################
------------------------------
From: "Sharon A. Ritter" <102446.3717@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 26 Jun 96 00:31:21 EDT
Subject: brewing to style
On a recent trip to the Big City, I stopped by the local HB supply shop.
The owner was lamenting about recipes from winners of competitions
where the brewers use ingredients from countries other than where the
style originated. For example: "Using Belgian malts to produce a
classic English pale ale" (he scoffed). My response, as one who often
uses the "wrong" ingredients, was that his argument was without merit.
As long as the beer meets the style criteria it makes no difference
where the ingredients originate. It's like arguing that the ONLY way to
make authentic Italian cuisine is by using pasta from grain that is
grown it Italy!
Would anyone like to disagree with my stance on this discussion?
BTW, tomorrow I'm brewing an English Special Bitter using Belgian
crystal, British 2-row, and hops grown in the Pacific Northwest
(Willamette)! Will it not be in the English Bitter style?
Dan Ritter in Grangeville, Idaho
102446.3717@compuserve.com
------------------------------
From: thaller@bod.net (Tim Haller)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:04:46 +0100
Subject: 10 gal. coolers
Hi Brewers,
I noticed several recent requests for sources of 10 gal. coolers. I got out
my faithful Grainger Industrial Equipment and Supply Co. (appropriate name,
eh?) catalog and sure enough, they have 'em. They carry two brands: Igloo
(model number 4101; stock number 3ZC47 - $60) and Arctic (model number 610;
stock number 5H534 - $71). These prices may not be exact since my catalog
is a couple of years old, but they should be in the ballpark. Grainger has
locations in all 50 states + DC and Puerto Rico, so a call to your friendly
directory assistance operator should yield a number. Their catalog (all
2500 pages of it) also contains just about any kind of plumbing fitting you
can imagine, as well as electric motors, pumps and other items (some 47,000
in all) of interest to brewers. They'll probably send you one if you ask.
Another supplier you might want to check out is McMaster-Carr. Similar
catalog, etc.
***Insert standard disclaimer here.***
If you can't get a number from directory assistance, drop me a line e-mail
(include your location, as several states have NUMEROUS locations), and I'll
see what I can do...
Just my $.02 worth,
Tim Haller - thaller@bod.net
Catamount Brewing (aka Jill's kitchen)
Kittredge, CO
------------------------------
From: Mike Foster <mfoster1@voyager.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:25:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Homebrew feeds
At 09:15 PM 6/25/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Shawn,
>
>I am new to HBD so I apologize if I am not doing thinks correctly here.
>I signed up for the undigested feed, but the e-mail volume is a bit too
>intense for me. How do I resign from the undigested feed, and stick with
>the regular version of HBD?
And alternately, I would like to recieve an undigested feed. How do I go
about doing that?
- -Mike Foster mfoster1@voyager.net
Lord Wulfgar Silberb=E4r proto-incipient Shire of Altenberg
#88 goalie for the SPC Flyers
Jessica Benson Virtual Adept extrordinaire
What? Me? Schizophrenic? Am not!
------------------------------
From: aod@algonet.se (Patrik Andersson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:34:14 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: *CiDER*,*FiLTER*.
Hi !
I just have some questions, I'm not really experiensed in homebrewing
although I have brewed in 1 year or something.
Does anyone have any nice Cider recepie?
Is there any filter on the market that can handle to take away the (dont
know the english word) thing on the bottom (huh? Hehe) that is yeast and
such. A ordinary "Coffe filter" doesnt work?
Please email me privately at:
aod@algonet.se
Thank you very much.
aod@algonet.se
..trying to make a drinkable beer..
------------------------------
From: aesoph@ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Date: 26 Jun 96 08:00:28 EDT
Subject: Potato and Rice.........
Dave Wrote:
> Subject: potato and rice
> I have a friend who was just diagnosed with gluten intolerance a few
> years ago. Now she can't eat anything derived from wheat or barley
> which means no beer.
Sorry to hear about that!!!!!!
> Does anyone know of any recipes for a potato, rice, or any kind of
> fermentable adjuncts beer?
Virtually any fruit or vegetable can be made into a wine. I used to be a
hard core Lager guy, now I do fruit wines instead. It's cheaper, the
ingredients are readily available, no boiling required, cleanliness is
less of an issue, and you can be more creative. I use a simple recipe
with _NO_ chemicals, additives, whatever - all natural. Ignore any wine
recipe more than a few sentences long!!!!!!
3 Quarts Fruit or Vegetable (Yes, even things like tomato, onions,
potato, etc.)
3 Gallons Water
10 Pounds Sugar
3 Sliced Lemons
4 Pounds Raisins
Champagne Yeast
Mix fruit, lemons, water, sugar and yeast. Stir daily for 7 days. Add
raisins and let sit for 3 weeks. Remove fruit, let stand as desired or
until clear then bottle. Keep in cool, dark place for aging. Warning,
this will hit about 20% alcohol and will taste VERY strong for a few
months, but then it will settle down.
==================================================
Michael D. Aesoph Associate Engineer
==================================================
------------------------------
From: "Allan Rubinoff" <allan_rubinoff@mathworks.com>
Date: 26 Jun 1996 09:00:06 -0400
Subject: Re- High gravity brewing
I tried posting this once before, but I think it got lost in the shuffle.
In HBD #2079, Jim Dipalma writes:
> Hop bitterness is a sharp flavor, high levels of hop bitterness will
> make the beer seem thinner. That is why hops are used to balance
> maltiness, wouldn't you agree Al?
Although I'm not the Al that Jim is addressing, I have to disagree with
this statement. First, hop bitterness is used to balance sweetness, not
maltiness. Second, while sweeter beers do tend to have higher final
gravities, it's the sweet flavor you're trying to balance with bittering
hops, not the gravity.
I've never noticed that bitterness makes a beer seem thinner, but it
does make a beer seem less sweet.
Allan Rubinoff
rubinoff@mathworks.com
------------------------------
From: Stetson <stetson@global2000.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:50:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: my scotch ale
Hello all, I had a question about my scotch ale. When it was about 4-6
weeks in the bottle, it was great, right up there with my #1 beers, but
now its about 8 weeks old, and its way over carbonated!! I was wondering
if there was anything I could do about this, or am I going to end up
dumping the batch?
Please help!
stetson@global2000.net
------------------------------
From: Stetson <stetson@global2000.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:00:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: blackberry wheat
Hello all again, I forgot to ask ya all in my last message...
I just made my first fruit beer, blackberry wheat, and was wondering how
long I should leave it in the primary with the berries?
I put the frozen berries in the primary with 2 gallons of water, poured
the wort on top of them, and topped it off to 5 gal. Like I said above,
this is my first fruit beer, and I was just wondering how long I should
keep it in the primary to get the flavor from the berries before I rack it?
Thanks!
Happy Brewing..
stetson@global2000.net
------------------------------
From: "Sharon A. Ritter" <102446.3717@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 26 Jun 96 10:36:45 EDT
Subject: malty vs. sweet
George De Piro writes:
>Oktoberfests DO NOT get their maltiness from crystal malt. In fact,
>too much crystal will make the beer to caramel-sweet for the style....
>I happen to brew a good Oktoberfest, so I feel my opinion is worth at
>least a little bit (it won Gold at the AHA NHC this year).
I agree with George and so did the judges from this year's NHC. My
Octoberfest took the bronze in the finals. It was faulted for too much
caramel sweetness in the regional competition and I'll bet the national
judges say the same thing (I haven't received the judges score sheets
yet). I'm changing my recipe to add more Munich malt and less crystal.
Dan Ritter in Grangeville, Idaho
102446.3717@compuserve.com
------------------------------
From: Steve.Robinson@analog.com (Steve Robinson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 10:58:14 EDT
Subject: Pub Glass Problem
In HBD 2081, Mike Spinelli writes:
> HBDers,
> After seeing how fanatical the Germans are to assuring the beer drinker that
> they get a full glass of beer, going so far as having glasses etched with
> the fill line and allowing for a great head to boot, I can only wonder
> what the hell's wrong with we Americans.
>
> Why can't all the great pubs and breweries in this country adopt this most
> fair practice? It's the exception and not the rule that I get draft micro
> without a decent head. And forget about ever seeing a real pint glass that
> holds a pint of beer _plus_ a great head.
In part, this comes from the German preference for heavily carbonated
Pilseners. Other styles, from other parts of the world, reflect different
practices. Your average British pub patron - at least the real ale drinkers,
not the lager louts :) - would be horrified to receive a pint of draft ale
with a big head on it. Since, at least in the early days of the craft beer
movement in the US, ales were the norm at brewpubs and micros, many practices
here have grown up around the lower carbonation levels of pale ales and
bitters.
Steve Robinson
North Andover, MA
------------------------------
From: "Ing. John Coppens" <jcoppens@linux2.uccor.edu.ar>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:56:49 -0400 (WST)
Subject: Difficulties IDing Yeasts
Hi everybody!
I'm a (very lonely and novice) homebrewer living in Argentina. 'til
now I've been satisfied with kit brewing, but I'd like to start thinking
about a little more creative stuff. As is, no home brew stores at all
have been detected in Cordoba, which has over 1 million inhabitants.
A few commercial breweries do exist, and one could be called a 'micro-
brewery' I guess, though it really is affiliated to a German firm,
and I doubt they are grain brewers.
This just to paint the daunting task it is to homebrew here. The
mrs travelled to Belgium some time ago, and brought back, among other
necessities for brewing, different yeasts. For a few months I've been
reading the HBD, and have detected no mention at all of these. Can
anyone indicate where to get info (or equivalence to US yeasts)?
All are dry yeasts:
- (Paul Arauner KG) Bavarian Bottom Fermenting
- ( " " " ) Ale Top fermenting
- (No ID) Yeast Batch D5 Product of UK
- (No ID) Yeast Batch M3 Product of UK
The first 2 are quite difficult to dissolve in water, and contain
particles of different colors.
The last 2 dissolve readily and may correspond to an item in a
catalog which says 'universal yeast'... What's a universal yeast? I'd
never seen a universal yeast mentioned in any article/book. Maybe middle
fermenting? :-)
TIA for any comments,
John.
------------------------------
From: Douglas Thomas <thomasd@uchastings.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: distillation/meat grinders/potato and corn
Hello all,
this is responding to three seperate posts. Regarding distillation, I
know for sure that unlicensed distillation is illegal in CA, and I
believe every other state. Irregardless of this, if you are going to
distill, be very careful. There are many books out there on this, and be
very careful about construction. Improperly distilled spirits can be
nasty (both in taste and healthwise). Making something "hard" is easier,
but not as effective. Read up on it. Freezing has been present in any
location that has snow cover for an extended time.
Although I am not a beer brewer (I prefer wine) I have many friends that
do all grain. Most have told me that meat grinders are a pain in the
rear. The plates must be set too loosely, thus causing them to sometimes
fall off ocassionally, and particle size to be inconsistent. I have
tried grinding nuts in them (to make nut flours for bread), and have
noticed the same things.
Now onto corn and potatos. I have only used them as adjuncts in wine.
The wine I used corn in had a slight "whiskey" flavor to it. I have had
sweet corn wines made by friends, using both the raw sweet kernals, and
roasted grains. This turned out very good, and could translate well to
beer I suspect. Potatos, on the other hand, have almost no flavor. I
have only used them to boost alcohol levels, without adding sugar.
Both of these items produce starch haze in wine, so I would guess the
same for beer. Fining helps this, or using a strain of yeast that can
attenuate some starch.
That is about all.
Doug Thomas
thomasd@uchastings.edu
------------------------------
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 26 Jun 96 11:09:16 EDT
Subject: resubmission #3
I hope this hasn't appeared already. If so forgive me. I like many others am
confused about what got included in HBD and what got stomped on. I hope this is
of general interest.
- ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: David R. Burley, 103164,3202
TO: Tony McCauley, INTERNET:afmccaul@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
DATE: 6/20/96 7:15 AM
RE: Copy of: Re: Ireland Brews
Tony,
I don't have MJ's World Book of Beers which I think is the one you want, I have
his 1993 orig copyright "Beer Companion" a very good hardbound for the coctail
table.
Anyway here's the contents on Ireland for your mother's trip. May she bring you
back one of each!
1) Beamish and Crawford pp 176,181
Dry Stout - Located in Cork
B&C is owned by Carling O'Keefe of Canada and now by Foster's
2) Cherry's p112
Ale brewery (presumably a bitter)
owned by Guiness
used to brew Phoenix, now brewed at MacCardle see below
3)Dempsey's p112
Opened in late 1980's with cask conditioned ale, but closed, bottom fermented
version is brewed by Huber in Monroe, Wis. USA
4) Guiness p 112, 176-8, 181-2
Three ale breweries:
Cherry's of Waterford
Smithwick's of Kilkenny
MacCardle of Dundalk
Dry Stout (of course)
5) GH Lett p 111
15 th century brewery closed in 1956,licenses to Coors in US under George
Killian ale name
6)Macardle p112
ale owned by Guiness
Phoenix Beer
7) Murphy p176, 182
Stout
8) Perry's of Rathdowney, County Laois p 112
closed in 1960's - the last independent ale brewery in Ireland
9) Smithwick's of Kilkenny p112,113
ale house owned by Guiness, ale can be called Kilkenny, but Smithwick's is the
principal Irish Ale
SO, it looks like most of the brewing in Ireland is done by Guiness (which I
think you already knew).
Keep on Brewin',
Dave Burley
------------------------------
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 26 Jun 96 11:09:21 EDT
Subject: Resubmission #2
Note: The new text reader won't let me use the word t*st where *=e, so see the
substitution below.
From: David R. Burley, 103164,3202
TO: Shawn Steele Submissions, INTERNET:homebrew@aob.org
DATE: 6/22/96 11:12 PM
RE: Copy of: Oxidation, Clinit*st, etc.
where *=e
Brewsters,
I'm glad to see lots of topics of interest to me under discussion at present.
In some of the discussions, paraphrasing of my earlier comments were not
perfect, so it makes it sound different here than it does between my ears.
Also, I find that some of my comments were not clear to you since you couldn't
read my mind.
In the absence of clear proof, I basically challenge the idea that in a 5
gallon kettle boilng away for an hour or more, open to the air, that no
oxidation of the wort will occur. If you have ever made spaghetti sauce and
compared the taste and color of batches made with the lid on and the lid off
the kettle you will undoubtedly agree that the taste and color of the sauces
are different and the one with the lid off is darker and tastes oxidized. Apple
sauce is turned to apple butter by extended boiling in the presence of air.
Commercially that "home made" taste is achieved by oxygen injection into the
(large volume, closed) cookers.
I do believe that in a professional brewing establishment little oxygen gets to
the wort in which the kettle is covered over by a hood - I said closed before -
( but still at atmospheric pressure). The vapor head above the kettle is 100%
steam ( by def of BP, temp at which vapor pressure of the liquid ( water)
equals 1 atm) - as long
as you don't have a fan in the kettle head to draw in air directly over the
kettle headspace. Under these circumstances and in those kettles having a low
exposed surface to volume ratio will not suffer extensive oxidation during the
boil.
My point is, however, we do not typically have these circumstances in our home
brewery. We have a rolling boil which constantly exposes all of the volume of
the wort to oxygen at the highest possible temperature, 212F or 100C for a
period of an hour or more. I do not believe that all of the gas above our
kettles is water vapor. Some of it is air. I believe this is real, but this is
only my intuition. Does anyone have any way to prove it or disprove it?
What fraction of the oxidation of the wort is from the boil and what fraction
from the , so called HSA?
Assuming this idea of oxidation during the boil is correct, is there an easy
design, e.g. an aluminum conical kettle cover, sort of like an upside down
funnel, with a largish hole in the top that will reduce this problem?. I have
to smile at the possiblity of using too small of a hole and explaining to my
wife how much I like the ceiling
dripping with wort foam. Perhaps use the cover only after the initial foam up
is through.
- ------------------------------------------------
My apologies for typing Aspergillus Niger instead of the correct mold
Aspergillus Orzygae which is used in making sake. I believe A. Niger is used in
preparing commercial amylases, perhaps not used in foodstuff preparation.
Thanks for the correction.
- ----------------------------------------------
I commented that the hydrometer is not really a suitable instrument to use to
accurately determine if a fermentation is stuck or finished at a high final
gravity, since you get the same answer either way and it is affected by the
alcohol content and dependent on the accuracy of a second measurement - the
temperature - not to mention the bubbles clinging to the glass wall and
seriuosly changing the reading. I suggested that Clinit*st is a better method
for the purpose of determining residual fementable sugar and thereby estimating
if the fermentation is complete.
Al K would like more information on the use of Clinit*st in the analysis of
residual sugars in the beer. Clinit*st for those readers who missed it, is a
t*st used for urinalysis of diabetics and available as a complete kit at your
local pharmacy . Specifically Al asks about the higher molecular weight sugars.
In my earlier note I commented that this t*st is probably a Fehling's or
Benedict's solution t*st. These t*st use alkaline cupric ion
to react with reducible sugars (see below) Clinit*st is most likely a Fehling's
solution t*st since in one step a pill is placed in a few drops of water along
with a few drops of the t*st solution. It foams up violently in the wide mouth
t*stube provided in the kit and changes to a bright color ranging from dark
greeen to orange over the 2% range of sugar content. Units of 0.25% are easily
distinguished. I presume it is Fehling's t*st since this
t*st uses sodium carbonate as the alkaline agent (thus the foam from a dry acid
in the pill like alka-seltzer). In any event, the color range suggests to me it
is a cupric ion reaction. If this is correct then sugars, aldoses and ketoses
are reduced. This means that for our area of interest, the monosaccharides like
Fructose,Glucose and Mannose, and the disaccharides like Maltose and Lactose
will be reduced and indicate the presence of
sugar. The disaccharide Sucrose will NOT be reduced and will not indicate the
presence of sugar.( Noller Chem of Org. Compounds 2nmd ed 1957 _ try to find a
modern text with this kind of real chemistry information) This seems to pretty
much parallel the sugars yeasts can utilize directly. I have used this method
from time to time when I was not sure if a fermentation was finished or not and
was never disappointed with the result.
I think the one question which bothers Al (at least in this area) and also
bothers me is, What about the higher polymers of sugars? Will they also give a
response and lead one to conclude incorrectly that the fermentation is not
over? Anyone have any ideas? I'll run the t*sts.
Calculations show that at 1.010 the sugar content should only be a maximum of
1%. (not taking into account the alcohol content for the moment.) If the
Clinit*st shows less than 1/4%, which it typically does under these
circumstances, then this shows me that at least some ( more than 3/4%) of the
final gravity are not reducible sugars. This indicates ( but doesn't prove)
that this t*st is useful for our purposes of indicating a finished
fermntation versus a stuck fermentation.
- ---------------------------
Jim Busch disagrees with my comment that the malty taste from Octoberfest and
the like comes from the caramelized malts, although he calls attention to the
Vienna and Munich malts.( which I would classify as a caramelized malt - note,
not just Caramel malt in the US which is basically a crystal type malt with no
diastatic power made by heating up wet malt to saccharification) I call your
attention to that infamous example of a
caramelized malt CARA(MEL)-Pils used freely in Pilsner. All these malts have
caramelized sugars from various sources. Also, as Jim correctly points out, the
malty taste also results from the use of the decoction method. I agree, the
malt sugar is caramelized in the brew kettle instead of at the maltsters.
- -------------------------
I have some more comments, but enough said for the moment. I'm looking forward
to yours.
Keep on brewin'
Dave Burley
------------------------------
End of Homebrew Digest #2082
****************************
