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HOMEBREW Digest #1967
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1996/02/23 PST
HOMEBREW Digest #1967 Fri 23 February 1996
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
N2, N2O (Neal Christensen)
malty scottish ales (Robert Rogers)
? on grain (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
Potluck Ale (Chris Strickland)
re:arm in beer (BOBKATPOND)
2 questions: fast carbonation, and yeast harvesting (Robert Rogers)
wedding (Shrink1010)
Homebrew Digest #1965 (February 21, 1996) (Pierre Jelenc)
Vessel to expand yeast starters (Stan Gregory)
Drawing wort (Carl Etnier)
Protein (Captain)
Calcium chloride hydrates (Svante Ekelin)
RE: Dishwasher Sanitizing Woody#1963 (Michael A. Genito)
Re: Attenuation Problem (Mark Peacock)
Kegging 101 Now in Session (KennyEddy)
brown sugar (Douglas Thomas)
SA clone...hops ("Dave Hinkle")
...more than just a big SUCK? ("Dr. Larry Allen")
Celis Tale (Mike Urseth)
Carbonation & mixes (Jerry Lee)
Re: Wyeast sources ... (Tom Fitzpatrick)
Quiet Yeast (help a beginner) (Eric Jensen)
Special B ("Dave Hinkle")
Delete off distro!!! ("Mark D. Cary")
using coins as balance weights (GREGORY KING)
Whiteshield/Scotland vs. England/grain bed depth/thumbs vs. tongues (Algis R Korzonas)
Electric MashTun (Russ)
FW: To Step Mash, or Not To Step Mash ("Kelly C. Heflin")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:26:32 -0700
From: nealc@selway.umt.edu (Neal Christensen)
Subject: N2, N2O
> Last week I had my CO2 (carbon dioxide) bottle refilled and asked the
> guy if it could be refilled with anything other than CO2 to drive a keg
> of stout. When I suggested N2O he raised an eyebrow and shook his head.
> He said that to fill it with anything other than CO2 would require them
> to install a different valve in the top of the pressure bottle.
>Anyone have experience with either "BeerGas", CO2/N2O mix or CO2/Ar mix?
Just a clarification here: N2O (nitrous oxide) is laughing gas and is
generally not sold to the public (hence the raised eyebrow). N2 is nitrogen
gas - it is useful in serving kegged beer because it creates a great
'whippped cream' head with many tight, small bubbles. Nitrogen gas does not
contribute to carbonation so it is ideal for pushing stouts from kegs where
a great head and low carbonation are desirable. I think that bars that
serve Guinees with nitrogen are generally using a bottle of mixed gas (CO2
and N2). I am not sure what N2O would do to beer, but it sounds interesting
- has anyone tried?
A question: I just tried out my new lauter tun. I am happy with the
results - at least 33 pts. But I did not end up with a 'flour' layer on the
top of the spent grains as I did with my old lauter tun. I think this may
be due to not having enough sparge water covering the bed while sparging.
What do you all think? Do you usually end up with a stratified layer of
fine grayish gunk on top of the grain? Is this desirable? What may I have
done this time that prevented its formation?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:42:55 -0500
From: bob@carol.net (Robert Rogers)
Subject: malty scottish ales
ken says:
>Algis sez:
>> I really don't know who it was that started the fallacy that Scottish Ales
>> are much less bitter than English Bitters. It was probably the same person
>> who said that Scottish Ales don't have a hop aroma.
[snip]
>in Scotland were
>sweet and mild while the English beers were stronger and more bitter. One
>could argue that the larger "national" brands were fairly similar to each
>other in style; when we were able to find unique "house brands" (mostly in
>"real ale" pubs), I'd say it was more than a generalization. Perhaps the
>WATER CHEMISTRY is coming into play here...(uh oh)...
don't forget the nature of the scots. (being one i think i can comment). it
costs less to make mild sweet beer.
bob rogers
bob@carol.net
"Why, Fritz, alcohol is a gift from God..."
--young Fritz Maytag's Mom
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:34 EST
From: CSS2@OAS.PSU.EDU (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
Subject: ? on grain
To the collective wisdom:
I have taken the plunge and done a few partial mashes and recently a couple of
all grain batches. I've been reading a lot on the subject (Charlie P's new
book, Dave Miller's 1st book, the Zymurgy grain issue) and I need
clarification on something:
What (if any) is the difference between pale malt and lager malt?
Are we talking about different applications for the same grain, or is there a
difference between the malt used to make ales and the malt used to make
lagers? The Zymurgy issue goes into a lot of detail to discuss the the
variety of grains that can be used, and talks a good deal about the specialty
malts, but no real discussion on pale malt vs. lager malt.
Can someone clear up my confusion???
Thanks
Curt
css2@oas.psu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 20:37:57 -0500
From: Chris Strickland <cstrick@iu.net>
Subject: Potluck Ale
A couple of weeks batch I started making a batch of beer without taking
inventory first. Well, to make a long story short, the beer was pretty
good. Kinda smooth, without the stronger tastes I prefer, but a crowd
pleaser. Here's the recipe:
Potluck Ale (Chris Strickland's Leftovers)
4.5 lbs Klages
1.25 lbs 60lv Crystal Malt
5.25 lbs Rice
1.5 lbs LME (all of my starter wort)
1 lb clover honey
2nd generation American Ale Yeast
1 Tbs Gypsum
1/2 tps Irish Moss
3 oz Saaz (Only had finishing hops)
I ground up the klages and rice in my grainmill.
Used Gypsum in my mash water.
Mashed according to standard procedures.
Boiled until hot break finished.
1hr
Added the 1.5 lbs of LME (would have rather used grain, but this is
potluck).
Added 1oz Saaz (Why not, mild hop's taste).
Put Irish Moss in hot tap water.
30 minutes
Added 1oz Saaz
15 minutes
Added Irish Moss
Added Honey
5 minutes
Added 1 oz Saaz
Let cool in sink (with hops in wort) for about 45 minutes ~90F
Poured in carboy with 2nd generation American Ale yeast.
Fermented two weeks,
Racked, in new carboy
Let sit two weeks, then bottled with standard 3/4's cup corn sugar (boiled
in water).
- --------------
Chris Strickland
cstrick@iu.net
http://www.teg.saic.com/mote/people.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:21:27 -0500
From: BOBKATPOND@aol.com
Subject: re:arm in beer
Kevin writes:
I just brewed my second batch of beer and made a grave error. While the
wort was cooling and before I pitched the yeast, a vital piece of
equipment fell in the beer! Being very tired, annoyed, and panicked I
shoved my unsanitized arm into the wort to retrieve the object. I know
this is about the worst thing one can do. My question is: do you think my
beer is definitely ruined? I have it in the primary now and it is
fermenting, but will the beer have some horrid flavor? Should I dump it?
I brewed a batch of beer with a friend of mine who normally is a winemaker.
To my horror he used his hands frequently in the wort, winemakers do things
like that, sometimes even using their feet. His beer turned out fine, so as
The Charlie says Relax........
Bob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 22:21:52 -0500
From: bob@carol.net (Robert Rogers)
Subject: 2 questions: fast carbonation, and yeast harvesting
fast carbonation:
i usually keg, but this batch went into bottles. i used 4lbs of malt syrup,
1/3quart of honey, and 1/2lb. carmelized brown sugar in about 3 gal. of
water for an OG of 1.07. after a week in an open fermenter the SG was 1.02.
after a week in an open secondary, it was still 1.02. i added about 2.5 oz
corn sugar and bottled. that was sunday night. this is wednessday and there
is already noticible pressure in the bottles. gently pouring a bottle
results in 3/8 inch of head. it tastes ok already, with a noticible fruit
taste (like the wild honey had). why is the carbonation there so quickly? i
expect i will end up with some beer bombs, but why?
yeast harvesting:
the reason i didn't use the keg for my "porter" is i have a lager in the
fridge which will be done before too long. am i better off harvesting the
yeast from the bottom of the primary or the bottom of the secondary, and why?
thanks for any help
bob rogers
bob@carol.net
"Why, Fritz, alcohol is a gift from God..."
--young Fritz Maytag's Mom
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 22:46:20 -0500
From: Shrink1010@aol.com
Subject: wedding
My fiancee' and I are both members of the Birmingham Brewmasters in Alabama
and we would like to announce are wedding coming up this Saturday, February
24th, 11:00 AM in Red Level, Alabama. We will have a Scottish style, outdoor
wedding.
John Richardson and Bonnie Monks
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 23:45:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Pierre Jelenc <rcpj@panix.com>
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1965 (February 21, 1996)
In HOMEBREW Digest #1965 Denis Barsalo asks:
>
> Can anyone explain why you would want to use Argon for beer?
For the same reason one would use nitrogen: It is poorly soluble in water.
Even though argon is a rare gas, it is relatively cheap because it is a
by-product of the preparation of liquid air.
> Also nobody ever mentioned the need for a different gauge or valve for use
> with this "BeerGas".
Nitrogen is under much higher pressure than CO2, so unless it is
compressed only to CO2 pressure, which would not make much sense, it
would require a nitrogen valve.
> Anyone have experience with either "BeerGas", CO2/N2O mix or CO2/Ar mix?
N2, _not_ N2O!
Pierre
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 01:14:05 -0500
From: Stan Gregory <cn1428@coastalnet.com>
Subject: Vessel to expand yeast starters
Found a cheap container for expanding liquid yeast starters to large
volumes: the 3 liter bottle that Gallo Livingston Cellars Blush Chablis(tm)
comes in. This bottle seems to be very thick-walled and quite durable.
There's a large lip below the threaded portion that makes the container easy
to handle. The metal-lined plastic cap is readily modified to accept an
airlock: drill an appropriate sized hole in the cap and insert a grommet to
accomodate the airlock stem. Sanitize bottle, cap, grommet, etc in 12.5
iodophor. Iodophor is probably better for this metal-lined cap than bleach.
Or you could just modify a plain plastic cap that doesn't have the metal liner.
The two most important things I've learned about improving my beer are: use
a hell of a lot of yeast and aerate the bejesus out of the wort at pitching.
Have your wife drink the chablis.
Stan Gregory
cn1428@coastalnet.com
Jacksonville, NC
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:24:47 +0100 (MET)
From: Carl Etnier <Carl.Etnier@abc.se>
Subject: Drawing wort
Bill Rust asks:
>1) Is a wine thief the only way to get samples (for SG checks,
>etc.) out of the carboy? Do they make one long enough for a 6
>1/2 gallon carboy?
A wine thief? Doesn't sound like anyone I'd like in _my_ house!
One poster before suggested using a 60 cc syringe and a catheter.
Sounds pretty easy, if you can get the stuff. Here's my method. I
have posted on it before, and am still satisfied with it.
Materials: a small plastic or glass container with a tightly
sealable lid, 100 cm aquarium aeration hose (ca 5 mm), and
silicone sealant. Cut off 10 cm of the aquarium hose. Drill two
holes in the lid and insert the 10 cm hose in one hole and the
rest in the other hole. Seal with silicone. (Sorry, no ASCII art.)
To use: Place lid, tightly sealed, on the plastic/glass container.
Sanitize the long aquarium hose. Remove the airlock from the
carboy. Stick the long hose down into the wort. Position the
container lower than the level of wort in the carboy and suck on
the short hose until a siphon is achieved. Allow the container to
fill up until you have enough wort for an s.g. test. Remove hose
from wort and replace airlock.
Regards,
Carl Etnier
Carl.Etnier@abc.se
A Kinetic Yankee in King Harald's Port
Oslo, Norway
P.S. Jep, as they spell it here, I'm no longer "a transplanted
Yankee in Trosa, Sweden." The copious amounts of homebrew, mead,
and Belgian booty came through the move OK in the van, both with
respect to the cold (not frozen) and customs (not detected). This
country's amazing beer culture is worth a posting later. I'll give
you a hint--one of the most interesting beers available in the
local stores where I live, really 30 km outside of Oslo, is Miller
Genuine Draft. That goes for US$4.50 per 33 cl/11 oz bottle. Makes
the domestic swill look inexpensive at US$2 per bottle!
There is another side of it, I hasten to add, before Oeystein and
Kian and other possible lurking Norwegians fire up their
flamethrowers. More later...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 07:35 EST
From: Captain <captain@iquest.net>
Subject: Protein
In HBD 1966 Al Korzonas writes:
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 12:49:43 CST
From: korz@pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: protein
Charlie (Scandrett) writes:
>and 65C. It has a peak rate at about 58C to 60C, but it continues pretty
>rapidly anyway. Overnight mashes will have much higher protein levels than a
>mash of a few hours. It should be very noticible in the mouth feel.
>Something has gone very much askew here. Normally, Charlie's posts are
>quite well thought-out and researched. Although I question some of the
>Charlie's comment that "overnight mashes will have much higher protein
>levels than a mash of a few hours" sounds completely backwards to both
>everything I've read and all my brewing experience. In a nutshell, the
>So, can you see now why Charlie's saying that a long mash would make
>for more protein is contrary to what I think will happen? Not all the
>enzymes will be killed and a long (overnight) mash will probably cut
>most of the proteins down to amino acids, leaving a watery, thin beer.
>I think you've got some 'splainin' to do Charlie...
I've been doing overnight mashes for a couple of years now. I can't tell ya
the chemestry behind it, but I can tell you that my beers are NOT lacking in
mouth feel. If anything, they have too much mouth feel. I've had nothing but
compliments from the other members of our homebrew club.
Again, I'm not trying to start flame wars. I don't know why it works this
way, but it works.
Jim Kirk
captain@iquest.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 13:52:08 +0100
From: svante@humle.se (Svante Ekelin)
Subject: Calcium chloride hydrates
Mark wrote:
>Wolfgang L. Wedel wrote:
>How much does one gram (ounce) rise the ppm levels of Ca and Cl in my
>water?
>
>One gram of CaCl2 in five gallons of water = 19 ppm Ca and 34 ppm Cl
>
>Calcium is 36% by weight of CaCl2. 1000 mg X 0.36 divided by 18.9 liters (5
>gallons) gives 19 ppm Ca. Same calculation for Cl which is 64% of CaCl2.
That's correct, if the CaCl2 you use is free from water.
Chemical companies offer calcium chloride in several forms. Aside from its
plain form (without crystalline water), it is obtainable as dihydrate (with
two molecules of water for each molecule of CaCl2), as tetrahydrate (with
four H2O) and hexahydrate (with six H2O). This means that if you use a
hydrated form, the Ca and Cl don't add up to 100 %. For instance, the
dihydrate contains 27.3% calcium and 48.2% chloride, the rest being water.
This table, simply calculated from the atomic weights of the elements
involved, shows the amount of ions in milligrams released from one gram of
the various forms of the salt.
| Ca2+ | Cl-
--------------|------|----
CaCl2 | 361 | 639
CaCl2 * 2H2O | 273 | 482
CaCl2 * 4H2O | 219 | 387
CaCl2 * 6H2O | 183 | 324
Just divide by the number of liters of water you treat, and you get the
contribution in mg/l (or ppm, which is basically the same thing) from each
gram of the form of calcium chloride you are using.
The problem with "pure" CaCl2 is that it is hygroscopic; it attracts water
from the humidity of the air. So when you weigh up your 5 grams of salt,
you risk getting (5-x) grams of salt and x grams of water. What's worse,
you don't know what x is!
So, if you like being in control, you're probably better off with hydrated
calcium chloride, which contains a known amount of water. I myself use and
like the dihydrate. (I started out with the hexahydrate, but it was just
too wet and sticky. It has a melting point only slightly above room
temperature, and once melted, it seems to go into solution in its own
crystalline water.)
I agree with Miller and others that the taste qualities of calcium chloride
are preferable to those of calcium sulphate (gypsum) for most beer styles.
But if you brew a pale ale, and want that "Burton flavour", you need the
sulphate.
Svante
________
Svante Ekelin phone +46-(0)8 512 357 58
Humlegardens Ekolager fax +46-(0)8 512 357 51
Humlegarden mail svante@humle.se
S-186 96 Vallentuna, Sweden
*****
Note attached: I submitted this a few days ago, but it was rejected because
of non-ascii characters in my signature. Well, I had no choice but to
conform, so I resubmit after changing the Swedish letter (å) to an a
in Humlegarden (which, by the way, literally means "hop yard").
/Svante
*****
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:39:20 -0500
From: genitom@nyslgti.gen.ny.us (Michael A. Genito)
Subject: RE: Dishwasher Sanitizing Woody#1963
In HBD1963 Woody wanted some further info on sanitizing in the dishwasher. I
think he was referring to my posting. I sanitize by putting my bottles in
the dishwasher with ~2ounces bleach, running it on short cycle and air dry.
I've been doing this six years w/o any problems. Woody mentioned his
dishwasher tines might be too short, causing the bottles to rattle and
possibly break. My dishwasher is a Whirlpool. It's tines are 4 3/4 inches
long. My bottles must be placed on every other tine, as they would not fit
being too close for every tine. I even put some bottles on the top rack,
leaning them on as great an angle as possible. Using this method, I get
enough bottles in one wash to take a 5gal batch, with some bottles left
over. Again, I've never had a bottle break in washing, or any problems with
the beer that was bottled in them. Occasionally, a rubber gasket may come
loose from the grolsch style bottle, but I usually find it in the drain
strainer.
Feel free to email here or privately if you need anything further on this.
Michael A. Genito, Director of Finance
Town of Ramapo,237 Route 59,Suffern,NY 10901
TEL:(914)357-5100 x214/FAX:(914) 357-7209
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:05:38 -0500
From: Mark Peacock <mpeacock@oeonline.com>
Subject: Re: Attenuation Problem
>>I remember reading somewhere that Wyeast Bohemian can have attenuation
>>problems, and I think that is what I have got. Has anyone else run into
>>this problem with this yeast,
>
>The Wyeast Bohemian is my pet hate yeast!
All this slagging of Wyeast Bohemian makes me feel a lot better. The worst
beer I ever made was a Czech Pils using Wyeast Bohemian and Laaglander light
DME -- high unfermentables with a low attenuating yeast. Frustration
doesn't get much more complete.
Mark Peacock
mpeacock@oeonline.com
Big Business on the Web: http://oeonline.com/~mpeacock/bbusiness.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:20:53 -0500
From: KennyEddy@aol.com
Subject: Kegging 101 Now in Session
Winter wants to Keg:
> I know that you guys are the perfect people to tell me -- use
> small words -- a little about kegging. Why do I want to keg? Well,
> honestly, because I don't want to clean ninety-twelve bottles every
> time I brew. I want to be able to bottle some and to keg some of
> each batch. Now, here's the thing. I want to do this as
> inexpensively as possible. You'll notice I didn't say cheaply. I
> want good equipment. Stuff that will last.
...and he goes on about mini-kegs, about which, as I have no experience with
these, I'll defer discussion to someone else (there have been several
postings on this topic; no shortage of info).
But I will give one brewer's spin on kegging. I enthusiastically jumped in
last summer with 6 used kegs, a 20# CO2 tank, and a $35 regulator. I swindled
a dear friend into fixing a "dead" refrigerator (cost me a few dusty old
Miller Lites), and installed two taps. So I have a nice
draw-it-when-you-need-it setup.
Almost immediately I noticed that bringing beer to club meetings, giving away
bottles, and just letting brew sit long enough to age properly became
difficult/impossible. Sure, there's Frankenbrau and counterpressure and all
that but it seems bottling a dozen homebrews from a keg is more hassle than
bottling four dozen out of the secondary ever was.
But on the it's great having easy, no-sediment access to one's handywork. I
can have a small shot of homebrew after work without having to open a whole
bottle (or remember to refrigerate one in the first place), and when friends
come over, it's "help yourself" time.
So neither kegging nor bottling is perfect and there are major pro's and
con's both ways. So here's my "solution":
Kegiing has become my packaging method of choice for "first-time" recipes and
my "house beers". These are largely brews which don't need a long aging
period (light to medium ales, mostly), or other styles of which perhaps I
have some bottled versions
stashed away. Once I find a recipe I really like, or if I brew say a strong
ale, I'll bottle it. This kind of approach gives you the best of both
worlds, in essence.
Bottom line (and I know I'll get argument here): Don't rely on kegging to
solve all your packaging hassles. Strike a balance and you'll be better off.
Ken Schwartz
KennyEddy@aol.com
"Women prefer Democrats to men." -- Representative Tom Coelho (D-California)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:48:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas Thomas <thomasd@uchastings.edu>
Subject: brown sugar
This is really a general question, even though it deals with wine. I am
making some strawberry wine, using the slow feed method. I wanted to
use brown sugar as the simple syrup, but do not know how it would effect
the taste. I want a dark, more caramel taste, rather than a clean
finish. How has brown sugar effected tastes of brews that all out there
in HBD land have made? Will it absolutely make this undrinkable? or will
it just add a deep molasses undertone?
Thanks all
Doug Thomas
------------------------------
Date: 22 Feb 1996 10:30:08 -0700
From: "Dave Hinkle" <Dave.Hinkle@aexp.com>
Subject: SA clone...hops
> From: Andrew McGowan <AMCGOWAN@WPO.HCC.COM>
> Subject: Questions - Sam Adams Lager Clone
>
> I am wanting to attempt an all grain clone of SA lager.
If you can wait a month ot two, just write to the Boston Beer Co.
(address for brewery on the label!) and ask them for some hops.
I did this, and a few weeks later, got a form letter asking for $12
for a pound of their Hallertauer Mittelfrueh hops. With no further
action on my part, about a month later I got 400g of hops in a
mylar plastic pouch. I suppose if you actually send them the
money they MIGHT send them sooner! If you are really bent on
cloning SA Boston Lager, using THEIR hops would be the best
way to go. So send those letters!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:43:57 -0800
From: "Dr. Larry Allen" <docsbrew@inland.net>
Subject: ...more than just a big SUCK?
In HBD #1966, Russell Mast writes:
>> If I need anything out, I usually use a siphon hose, but then I enjoy
siphoning
>> (sick, huh?) and I have a pretty clever (if involved) set up for doing a
clean
>> siphon.
Okay, Russ, I'll bite...What's your clever technique? I happen to think
siphoning is kinda neato, too (did you ever read Charlie P.'s treatise in
TNCJOHB?), and it's how I "steal" a sample to check/taste, too. Enlighten
us, please...
Doc.
|------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Dr. Larry Allen Allen Family Chiropractic |
| Child of God Founder - Doc'sBrew |
| Doctor of Chiropractic "Cures What Ales Ya" (tm) |
| *** Copyright 1996 Doc'sBrew *** |
|------------------------------------------------------------------|
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:48:49 -0600
From: beernote@realbeer.com (Mike Urseth)
Subject: Celis Tale
The story I get about the Celis rollback goes like this: When Miller bought
Celis they found that many of the distributors handling Celis were not
Miller brand houses. They want all their beers in Miller houses. By pulling
Celis out of a state, the contract with distributors can be cancelled. When
Celis comes back you will see it handled by a Miller house.
The Leinenkugel brand has had similar problems in Minnesota. Strict laws
protect distributors against breweries pulling their beer. When Miller took
over Leinie's they tried to put all the new specialty beers (Red, Autumn
Gold, etc.) in Miller houses. A messy lawsuit followed with the
distributors coming out on top. I suspect the end of the story is still not
at hand.
As someone else mentioned, brewery capacity is also a factor.
Mike Urseth
Editor & Publisher
Midwest Beer Notes
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:21:03 -0800
From: jlee@esd.ray.com (Jerry Lee)
Subject: Carbonation & mixes
>Jack Stafford said:
>> Last week I had my CO2 (carbon dioxide) bottle refilled and asked the
>> guy if it could be refilled with anything other than CO2 to drive a keg
>> of stout. When I suggested N2O he raised an eyebrow and shook his head.
>> He said that to fill it with anything other than CO2 would require them
>> to install a different valve in the top of the pressure bottle.
>> He suggested that he could fill the bottle as is with a "beer mixture"
>> that they provide. It consists of part CO2 and part Ar (argon). I made
>> my own skeptical face and had it filled with straight CO2.
>Can anyone explain why you would want to use Argon for beer?
>Here in Montreal, there was a gas company selling what they called
>"BeerGas" and I was told that it was a Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen mix.
>Nobody ever mentioned Argon.
>Also nobody ever mentioned the need for a different gauge or valve for use
>with this "BeerGas".
>Anyone have experience with either "BeerGas", CO2/N2O mix or CO2/Ar mix?
>Denis
>Rich Byrnes says:
>My local welding supplier sells a 60/40 co2-n2 mixture for beverage
>dispensing, you can put this in either a co2 tank with a standard
>valve and regulator OR a nitrogen tank with a nitrogen valve and
>nitrogen regulator-the only difference being the valve is male
>threaded for one and female for the other. they had no qualms about
>filling a standard co2 tank with this blend, and they have been in
>business for well over 30 years if that means anything.
>I've got a spare tank I'm gonna have filled real soon with this blend
>and would like like to hear from someone who has carbonated and/or
>dispensed with this blend, I'm intrigued!
I was waiting for someone else to respond...but since no one has....
A mixture of CO2 with any inert gas is typically called "al eh gal"
(phonetic spelling). Aligal can mixed in almost any ratio of CO2
with an inert gas. Typical is 12-40% inert gas. This gas can be
Nitrogen (cheapest), Argon (more expensive) or something as wierd
as Helium...the idea is that it must be inert...non-reacting with
your beverage. The usual use of inert gas is for the Guiness Style
stouts where you are trying to hold the foaming to a moderate level.
Excessive foaming is as undesirable as no head retition. So if you
are commercial, the easiest way and cheapest is to add Nitrogen to
your driving gas.
You do not need a special regulator or equipment...just more money.
The fill stations will have a seperate tank that they make your mix
in and then do a normal transfer to your CO2 tank. They do indeed
charge for the labor of mixing, the extra tanks, etc etc.
For the typical home brewer is is not a desirable situation. We have
enough problems keeping the caronation right without adding the
calculations for an inert percentage of gas. Trying to adjust/calculate
your percent of CO2 vs temp vs style is already a challenge for most
people.
If you want to experiment...do it with a beer that you are having
unreasonable foaming problems with already...you could be pleasantly
suprised...instead of having a flat Bitter.
No this will not help with foaming problems with your counter pressure
filler...(actual it will look like it but you will end up with flat
beer). Someone elses suggestion here about chilling the entire setup
including the bottles has helped me considerably...Thanx whoever that
was, sorry I forgot your name...:-}
=====================================================
~~~~~ / \
//\\\\\ / Jerry D. Lee, Jr. | SEPG Methods & Tools Chairman /
{| ~ ~ |} / Raytheon ESD | E-Mail : jlee@eng.esd.ray.com \
| ^ | / 6380 Hollister Ave | Tel : 805-967-5511 ext2306 \
\ = / \ Goleta, CA 93117 | Fax : 805-964-9185 _/
- --/\-/\-- \ \
\/^\/ \+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=|
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:12:07 -0600 (CST)
From: fitz@fasicsv.fnal.gov (Tom Fitzpatrick)
Subject: Re: Wyeast sources ...
Al K. writes:
>Dave has a habit of concealing the sources of his yeast strains.
>Unless he has changed his ways, I would be very skeptical of what
>he says about the yeasts' origins. For example, if you ask directly
>if Wyeast #9993 is the "Pabst" yeast, he probably won't say no --
>he'll say something like "there's a possibility that it is."
>I think that the only way to figure out which yeast is which is by
>comparing it to a side-by-side fermentation with a sample you got
>directly from the brewery (I haven't been to one that refused to
>give me yeast). So, take Tom's suggested sources with a grain of
>salt and simply see if you like the beer that comes out -- isn't that
>what it's all about anyway?
I did not ask directly, "Is Wyeast #1388 Duvel?"
I asked for the origin of Wyeast #1388. He replied "Duvel."
Similar one word responses were received for other strains.
The only one that he used the words "might be" in describing
was Young's #1388. There were other yeasts in which he was not so
forthcoming. He said if the brewery did not want to be identified he
respected their wishes.
I don't think Dave has any motivation to lie about the origin of
his yeast if the brewery of origin doesn't care.
Why don't you call him yourself and see if he gives the same answers
twice? Now that might be interesting and shed some light ...
Tom Fitzpatrick
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:57:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Eric Jensen <jensener@garnet.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Quiet Yeast (help a beginner)
Hi Y'all
The discussions here on the HBD are quite interesting, and
everyone sounds quite knowledgeable. I therefore hope that someone can
answer my question.
I am in the midst of brewing my first batch, a barleywine
(beginner's ambition), which went through an initial fermentation on Edme
Ale Yeast with no problem, reducing from 1.110 to 1.048 s.g. Now the
recipe calls for a second fermentation with champagne yeast. I hydrated
the yeast at 104 degrees as indicated on the package, then pitched it into
my wort once it had cooled to room temperature (about 65). By the next
morning, there was about one bubble every ten minutes out of my blow-by
but the next day there didn't seem to be anything going on.
I suspect that the temperature is too cool for the yeast,
especially because I realized there is a draft in the corner where I had
the carboy. I have now moved it next to the stove (warmest place in my
apt), away from the draft, and insulated it by placing it on newspaper and
wrapping it in a towel. Can I expect fermentation to pick up with these
measures, or is there something else I should do?
Thanks.
Eric R. Jensen jensener@garnet.berkeley.edu (510) 642-5352
Psychology Dept. #1650, 3210 Tolman Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720-1650
------------------------------
Date: 22 Feb 1996 14:07:46 -0700
From: "Dave Hinkle" <Dave.Hinkle@aexp.com>
Subject: Special B
Lynn asks:
>I researched but could not find a description of Special B malt. I went
>ahead and used 6% Special B in the mash. The resulting color was decidedly
>brown, almost completely lacking in red highlights.
>
>What is Special B malt? How is it made? What attributes can you expect
>from it?
Special B is a trade name of De Wolf-Cosyns of Belgium for an extremely
dark "crystal" (or caramel) malted barley. I don't think the Lovibond is 100,
I think they list it at 180-190. If your brew shop said it was 100, they either
were guessing, just trying to make a sale, or it wasn't true "Special B". Most
'conventional' crystal malts I've seen top out at 140 deg. L max. "Special
B" is like the missing link between crystal and chocolate malt.
6% of Special B is quite a bit to use; generally 2-4% (4 oz /5 gal) imparts a
strong toffee-like flavor and DEEP red-brown color. Potent (but good) stuff!
You might have gotten the color you wanted with about half the amount you
used, but it is pretty dark none the less. Remember, 1 part Special B will
color about the same as 2 parts 100L crystal, but the taste will be VERY
different!
-Dave H.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 16:18 EST
From: "Mark D. Cary" <0005493919@mcimail.com>
Subject: Delete off distro!!!
- -- [ From: Mark Cary * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --
Please take me off this distro!!!
Thanks
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:29:58 -0500 (EST)
From: GREGORY KING <GKING@ARSERRC.Gov>
Subject: using coins as balance weights
In HBD #1966 Ken Koupal (krkoupa@ccmail2.pacbell.com) writes:
>Thanks to all those who responded to me about balance scale weights. At
>issue: I use commercial brass gram weights and my recipes are in ounces.
>Anyone can do the conversions. My problem was that I didn't want to plunk
>down 20g + 5g + 2g + 1g + 200mg + 100mg + 50mg weights to make up an ounce.
>What a PITA! I want to plunk down one weight, period, end of activity.
<snip>
[Nice description of how to make brass weights from brass rod deleted]
Another option is to use a combination of coins. I weighed out an
assortment of coins (U.S. pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters) on a
fairly sensitive scale (accurate to 0.01 gram) and got the following
average masses (or weights, if you prefer):
penny = 2.67 gram (average of 7 coins)
nickel = 5.01 gram (average of 7 coins)
dime = 2.28 gram (average of 4 coins)
quarter = 5.66 gram (average of 8 coins)
Except for one badly-behaved penny with a mass of 3.08 gram, none of the
coins' masses varied from the corresponding average value by more than
0.07 gram.
By playing around with various combinations of coins, I came up with the
following:
0.2550 oz = 1 penny + 2 dimes
0.4984 oz = 1 nickel + 4 dimes
0.9982 oz = 5 quarters
1.9964 oz = 10 quarters
As you can see, these combinations of coins are good approximations for
1/4 oz, 1/2 oz, 1 oz, and 2 oz, respectively.
Here are the worst-case errors one could get using the above combinations,
assuming a 0.07 gram error per coin and using Ken's approximation 1 hop
pellet = 0.24 gram:
1/4 oz: 3 coins * 0.07 gram/coin = 0.21 gram = 0.9 hop pellet
1/2 oz: 5 coins * 0.07 gram/coin = 0.35 gram = 1.5 hop pellet
1 oz: 5 coins * 0.07 gram/coin = 0.35 gram = 1.5 hop pellet
2 oz: 10 coins * 0.07 gram/coin = 0.70 gram = 2.9 hop pellet
For statistical reasons, the errors are likely to be significantly less
than these worst-case values.
Greg King
gking@arserrc.gov
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 16:36:46 CST
From: korz@pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Whiteshield/Scotland vs. England/grain bed depth/thumbs vs. tongues
Sandy writes:
>One of particular interest is Whiteshield yeast (Bass). A friend from
>Burton-on-Trent raves about it.
Rumour has it that Wyeast #1028 London Ale is the Bass Whiteshield yeast.
***
Ken writes (quoting me):
>> I really don't know who it was that started the fallacy that Scottish Ales
>> are much less bitter than English Bitters. It was probably the same person
>> who said that Scottish Ales don't have a hop aroma.
>
>All I can say is that in the time I spent touring Scotland and England last
>summer, I found this "fallacy" to be based in *general* fact. Sure there
>were exceptions but by and large the smaller "local" brews in Scotland were
>sweet and mild while the English beers were stronger and more bitter.
Recall that I suggested that interested parties checked Roger Protz's
Real Ale Drinker's Almanac, Issue 3 (issue 2 doesn't have the BUs listed).
I did this because far more HBD readers could access this than travel to
Britain. My initial impression that Scottish Ales and English Bitters
are far less different than the AHA and most books say is from personal
experience tasting my way from Edinburgh to London via the Lake District,
Burton-on-Trent, Wales, Southampton and Kent over the course of three
weeks, two summers ago. A couple of days at the Great British Beer Festival
helped me taste perhaps 50 more ales from Eastern and Far Western England.
After critically tasting more than 150 Scottish, Welsh and English Ales (a
very small percentage of them being National brands, incidentally), I would
have to say that you simply cannot generalize that Scottish Ales are maltier
and English Bitters are more bitter. Please check Protz's book and see if
at least Roger's figures and tasting notes don't support my contention.
***
Jared writes:
> I was reading HBD and somebody, not sure who sorry, wrote that the ideal
>grain bed depth was 6 inches. I have recieved different info. I went to
>Chicago about a month ago and visted the brew-who-who school Sibeil Institute
>of Tech. Da man there, who took me on the tour on the joint said puff away,
>not, but any ways said that ideal grain depth is 18 inches. He showed me a
>small, basically home brew set up, they have for there students. The
>mash-tun was a tall rectagular box about 20 inches high, 10 inches depth and 5
>inches in width.
> Now i would subscibe much more to the idea it has to do with
>proportionality. A small batch doesn't need to be that tall because the grain
>husks will and all the other particles will settle in a specific gradient
>according to particle size. So if your batch is small the area on the bottom
>which the grain husks will cover will be small and so on. With large batches
>sthe area which will be cover by the grain husks will be large.
> The thing that would be most important to consider would be depth of those
>grain husk areas. If your small batch was spread out over a larger surface
>area, the particle size distibution layers would all be thin.
> So aside from this babbling i've just spewed out, i guess what i'm trying to
>say is, the important thing to consider is the depth of the bed in relation to
>the area covered in relation to volume of liquid/grain.
The particle settling is independent of the area of the grain bed and the
distribution of the particles is *not* at all compleat (large-then-medium-then-
small). The physics simply don't work that way. Consider this: let's say
that the commercial brewery has an 18-inch grain bed that's round and 25 feet
in diameter. Assuming that we're talking about an infusion mash (i.e. no use
of rakes), you could put metal dividers into the mash (like the cardboard ones
in a cardboard wine box) so that each would contain 10 pounds of grain, right?
We then put an equal amount of sparge water into each "cell" and take runnings.
What we have at home is simply one of those "cells" that contains 10 pounds
of grain. It's still 18 inches deep, right?
Now, let's discuss what "ideal" means. To the commercial brewer, it probably
means that more depth would mean that it would be too difficult to draw the
runnings and more chance of a set mash. Less depth would probably mean too
much channelling and therefore inefficient sugar extraction. The too-deep
problem is one that we must contend with also, but the too-shallow one is
probably a matter of three or four points-per-pound-per-gallon. To us the
difference between 32 ppg and 28 ppg is not a big deal. To a pro it's $$$$$.
So, a *practical* grain bed depth to us is somewhere between 6 inches and 18
inches. In a gummy mash (lots of rye, oats, wheat or glucans in general)
an 18-inch grain bed would probably be equivalent to damp cement (someday
I'll tell you about my 3-hour lauter of my 43% rye malt ale), but for standard,
all-barley malt mashes, it's not as critical as you might think.
***
Jeff writes (quoting someone, sorry):
>> Being very tired, annoyed, and panicked I shoved my unsanitized arm into
>> the wort to retrieve the object. I know this is about the worst thing
>> one can do.
>
>No, the worst thing you could probably do is spit into it.
Actually, I would say it's about a draw. The standard first experiment
they teach you in microbiology courses is to pour two plates -- in one
you spit and in the other you put a thumbprint. Guess what? The thumbprint
one usually grows a lot more stuff than the salivaprint! Amazing but true...
Jeff is right though about using your tastebuds -- if you pitch enough
healthy, active yeast, you can be *all* thumbs and still brew prize-winning
beer. The odds that a homebrewed wort will be 100% sterile are 1 in a
billion, probably, but as long as you outnumber the nasties with yeast,
the beer will be in your tummy long before the nasties have a chance to
make a noticable contribution.
When I was in Britain two summers ago, it was one of the hottest summers
in recent memory. I distinctly recall that all the windows were open at
the breweries and there were large fans blowing air into the fermentation
rooms just so the workers wouldn't pass out from the heat. The vision of
outside air blowing with great force across the tops of the open fermenters
at Caledonian and Young's breweries is still fresh in my mind.
There's safety in numbers!
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz@pubs.att.com
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:41:50 -0500
From: russtj@mail.awi.net (Russ)
Subject: Electric MashTun
1. I am moving my brewing to my basement and am considering various options for
heat sources. I have seen Electric BREWCO Mash/Tun advertised and it looks
like it might
do the job.. Does anyone have any experience with it? I'm particularly
concerned
whether it can handle 10-13lbs of grain. As always any help/advice would be
appreciated.
2. Thanks
Russ
"Gentleman the smoking lamp is lighted!"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:32:10 -0500
From: "Kelly C. Heflin" <kheflin@monmouth.com>
Subject: FW: To Step Mash, or Not To Step Mash
- ----------
From: Kelly C. Heflin[SMTP:kheflin@monmouth.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 1996 8:45 PM
To: 'Homebrew Digest'
Subject: To Step Mash, or Not To Step Mash
First, thanks to everyone who responded to "understanding Yield"
I'm doing my 3rd batch of all grain this weekend and so far all I've
done is the basic single temperature mash. I have no problem
keeping good control of thetemp so any advice would be helpful.
Should I stick with the 150 to 158 deg, or
do something different.
Here's the recipe, for the Bock Beer I'm making.
10 lbs Helles 2 row.
1.5 lbs crystal
1.0 lbs Munich
.25 lbs chocalate
2 oz hallertau bittering
1 oz hallertau finishing
Wyeast Munich Lager
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1967, 02/23/96
*************************************
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