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HOMEBREW Digest #1951
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1996/02/02 PST
HOMEBREW Digest #1951 Fri 02 February 1996
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Top Cropping & Blow-Off ("Manning Martin MP")
Re: Blowoff sillyness (Jay Reeves)
list request ("Steve E. Hook")
humor clarification/O2 caps redux (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
Old Thumper (Chris Carolan )
Gott in Himmel. (Russell Mast)
Nut bustin' (Russell Mast)
Bruheat ( ROBERT P LEDDEN)
How fresh is fresh? (lheavner)
Yeast Stepping and Homebrew Supplies ("John Boshier")
Hops, roots, and bugs (Jeff Smith)
fw:Beer poem (919) 405-3632" <danz@edasich.rtp.semi.harris.com>
1996 Bay Area Brewoof results (Bob Jones)
Can oxidation happen early in the mash? (Ken Willing)
Advantage of blowoff (Paul Fisher)
M & F Dry Yeast (Paul Fisher)
Blowoff/Late fill up (RG Belville)
AHA Competition Forms Needed (hollen)
Re: Grain Volume / Heat Capacity (Spencer W Thomas)
Whaddaya think? ("Dave Draper")
Carboy Cleanup (Bob McCowan)
Carboy Cleaning (Marty Tippin)
??? (SCHWAB_BRYAN)
Galvanized pipe ("Tom Williams")
Valley Mill Rollers ("J PASSANTE")
oscura?/kegging observations (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
root-beer, pressure & yeast, aeration at 12 hr.s ("Tracy Aquilla")
More on Grain Volume & Heat Capacity (KennyEddy)
Cleaning Carboys (Ken Schroeder)
Competition Announcment (Algis R Korzonas)
Re: (Doug Roberts)
Starters & Dr. Raines ("mike spinelli")
Use of Galvanized pipe in RIMS ("Palmer.John")
Carboy cleaning (Domenick Venezia)
Yeast storage temperatures (Waverly)" <kbooth@isd.ingham.k12.mi.us>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 31 Jan 1996 13:30:04 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp@mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Top Cropping & Blow-Off
Al said:
>On the other hand, one reason for *not* using the blowoff method that Jack
>missed is that some yeasts take being top-fermenting very seriously and will
>create a thick cake of yeast that floats on top of the fermenting beer. If
>you use one of these yeasts with the blowoff method, you will be blowing-off
>a significant portion of your yeast AND, more importantly, will be blowing-
>off the *MOST FLOCCULANT* yeasts leaving the *LESS FLOCCULENT* yeasts to
>do most of the fermentation (i.e. selecting for the less flocculent yeasts).
This is exactly the same situation as with croppping a top-fermenting yeast
from an open fermenter. The yeast which is collected (selected) in either
case is the most flocculent fraction. This is exactly what you want, and a
good reason *for* using a blow-off system, IMO. As far as which cells are
doing most of the fermenting at any given time, it's the ones in suspension.
Those guys that are still in suspension when the cake forms will finish up
for that particular batch, but will then be discarded, i.e., un-selected.
MPM
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:28:32 -0600
From: jay@ro.com (Jay Reeves)
Subject: Re: Blowoff sillyness
In HBD1949 Al K. sez:
> you will be blowing-off
>a significant portion of your yeast AND, more importantly, will be blowing-
>off the *MOST FLOCCULANT* yeasts leaving the *LESS FLOCCULENT* yeasts to
>do most of the fermentation (i.e. selecting for the less flocculent yeasts).
>From what I understand, if you continue to harvest each subsequent
yeast slurry from the bottom, ie the less flocculent, it progressively get's
less flocculent than the generation before. Is that right? If it is, then
wouldn't it stand to reason that the same is true for the more flocculent
yeast and it would get to a point to where good attenuation is not acheived
because the yeast flocced too early? Is there more here than meets the
eye? (always is)
On another subject: A white I made recently lost points because it was too
clear - wasn't cloudy enough. When it's first chilled, it's nice and cloudy.
After several days chilled, it clears. If I remember ,the haze is due to the
protiens from the unmalted wheat. Can anything be done to keep the haze
and cloudiness?
-J
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:43:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steve E. Hook" <hooks@open.org>
Subject: list request
request list
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:01:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: humor clarification/O2 caps redux
> From: korz@pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
My post about my O2 cap experiment edited:
> >My biggest complaint with my own beer for a while has been oxidation.
> >I am only now starting to make more stable beers. I find that I am
> >rather sensitive to oxidation and it bothers me, so a solution would
> >be most welcome. I don't think these caps are it.
>
> There are two factors that you may want to consider. First, is there
> any chance that you sanitized those oxygen-absorbing bottlecaps by boiling?
No, I never sanitize my caps in any way. While I can't say I've
never had sanitation problems, I've never noticed bottle-to-bottle
problems.
> [Al explains how there are absorbing ("A") caps and simple
> barrier ("B") caps.]
I'll check to see which I have. This is new information to me.
> Secondly, oxidation earlier in the process (HSA, for example) can lead to
> oxidation problems with age. [edit by JBB] [O]xygen is bound-up
> in other compounds (melanoidins, I believe) only to be released later as
> the beer ages. Do I have that right? If so, then the "cardboard" or "paper"
> aromas we usually associate with post-fermentation oxidation could very
> well be a problem with aeration of the mash, runnings or post-boil wort,
> right?
Quite right. The improvements I have made wrt oxidation have been in this
area. I was hoping that the oxidation I tasted was a cumulative effect
of HSA and O2 in the bottle and that I would be able to reduce it further
with these caps. Probably I need to look at HSA even harder.
- ------------------
> I wrote:
> Subject: SG puzzle/archives
>
> > From: Domenick Venezia <venezia@zgi.com>
> > Subject: SG calc and measurement
>
> > So I did a test. 10 g DME in 100 ml water yielded 108 ml of wort.
> 2)
> Unless I am making a mistake I get that 10g in 100 mL yielding 1.034
> means
>
> 10 g = 4.5E-3 lb
> 3)
> Any good scientist knows that if you get a novel result you should
> repeat the experiment until you get the "right answer."
It was pointed out to me in email that I made mistakes in my points 2&3.
In (2) 10g = 2.2E-2, perfectly consistant with Domenick's findings.
In (3) I omitted the obligatory delimiter ":)" from the end.
Let me say in my defense that I believe that a good scientist is one
who believes (good) data, not dogma. I thought this was a sufficiently
widely-held belief that the humor of my comment would show through. I
apologize to any who were offended and I'll try never to make a joke
again.
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb@leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb/beerstuff/beerpage.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:53:49 -0800
From: spiralc@ix.netcom.com (Chris Carolan )
Subject: Old Thumper
Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan@cfrp.varian.com> wrote
>Subject: Old Thumper?
>I have some Old Thumper, brewed under license by the Kennebunk Brewing
>Company. I'd like to try and duplicate it at home. Anyone tried to do
>this?
>Bob
>Bob McCowan
Cloning this ale is my goal as well. Here's what I've learned so far.
>From the "Real Ale Almanac": Old Thumper OG 1.058, ABV 5.8
Ingredients.
Maris Otter Pale Malt (90%) crystal and choc malts (4%) and torrefied
wheat (6%). 28 units of colour (european) and 35 units of bitterness.
Hops are Challenger, Goldings and Progress hop pellets. Late hopped
with Goldings.
What I don't know is how to "torrify" wheat. Papazian says torrefied
grain is "similar" to pufffed wheat. How similar? Can anyone help on
this one?
The beer is from the Ringwood Brewery, in Hampshire and was the
Champion Beer of England in 1988. The brewer in the States who makes it
under license, Alan Pugsley of Shipyard/Kennebunkport, apprenticed at
Ringwood brewery. Yeast Lab's English Ale yeast A09 is reputed to be
Ringwood yeast, so that should be the yeast to use. I'm curious if one
of the new Wyeast strains is Ringwood yeast, specifically #1335,
British Ale II, but I don't know.
Shipyard/Kennebunkport has a web page (http://realbeer.com/shipyard/)
which contains the folllowing info on Pugsley:
"He began his brewing career working under Peter Austin at the Ringwood
Brewery in Hampshire, in the West County of Britain. Pugsley learned
the brewing business from the ground up from Austin, a brewer of 30
years' experience who is generally regarded as the "grandfather" of the
microbrewery revolution...He also collaborated with Austin on the
development of the Calandria (external heating) system, copper
whirlpool and hop percolator--the brewing system responsible for the
unique taste of Old Thumper and the other Shipyard Ales."
Interestingly, their web page does not mentioned the torrefied wheat
ingredient, although it has all the other info that the Almanac has.
Hope this helps. I hope to make some myself, yet I'm a new (extract)
brewer. I guess my effort will be called "Young Humper".
Chris (mother's maiden name is Ringwood) Carolan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:15:12 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast@fnbc.com>
Subject: Gott in Himmel.
> From: mike@datasync.com (Mike White)
> Subject: Re: Gott coolers
> The cylindrical cooler you describe is the one made by Rubbermaid. I have
> been told (although I have no personal experience with this) that these
> coolers are basically the same as the GOTT coolers.
Rubbermaid owns Gott and has for several years. They make a 10 gallon and
a 5-gallon. My five gallon, purchased a little over a year ago, says both
Rubbermaid and Gott on it, in different places. Not sure how they're labelled
these days. I'm pretty sure they only have one plant where they make any
cylindrical coolers, and it's the old Gott plant.
> By the way these can be purchased mail order from Rubbermaid. Just call or
> write the people listed below and request their catalog that includes water
> coolers/ice chests. The catalog is free.
And get some Little-Tikes toys, too! They're great.
> Wooster, OH 44691-6000
> 1-800-347-3114
Don't forget to ask them how to pronounce "Wooster", it's great fun.
-Russell Mast
ps. I'm more than a satisfied customer, my uncle's the president of
little-tikes, so take everything I say with a grain of malt!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:23:52 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast@fnbc.com>
Subject: Nut bustin'
> From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983@dpsc.dla.mil>
> Subject: Are you guys NUTS!
>
> Am I to understand that some of you shake the carboy while _holding_ it?
> No wonder why the 'boys are dropping like flies. All I do is place the 'boy
> on a carpeted floor...
Ah, there's a big difference. I have no carpeting. What I generally do is
drag the carboy out into an open area on the floor, sit down next to it, and
pick it up onto my lap. With the carboy resting on one leg, I hold it with
both hands and give it a good hearty swirling.
> From: PVanslyke@aol.com
> Subject: confusing terminology
> Kraeusen - The foamy head on beer in fermentation. Also the stage of beer
> during fermentation while producing a foam head.
Also, as a verb, to use fermenting beer to add sugars for conditioning.
> Trub - The haze or flock appearing in wort by boiling or cooling.
>
> Paul --
Don't know that one....
-R
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:33:55 EST
From: BMJL93A@prodigy.com ( ROBERT P LEDDEN)
Subject: Bruheat
Jeff Hewit asked about Bruheat boilers:
I've been using a Bruheat for mashing/boiling for 3.5 yrs and IMO is
the way to go. If I'm doing step-infusion I heat my water in the
BH to the first rest temp+8F, add boiling water for the next step,
and then use the heating element for any additional rests. The
reason for the additional water is twofold. My first rest is a
protein rest which is better done with a thick mash and secondly when
raising the temp of the mash with the heating element you should stir
frequently and the extra water makes that easier. Some people
have mentioned problems with scorching grains but with a little
patience this shouldn't be a problem(Don't crank it up to max. and
leave for 5 min.). I then transfer the mash into a Phils' rig with an
Easy Masher installed and run my sparge into the Bruheat(after
rinsing). I normally get 30+ pts with this setup and also use the BH
for 6.5 gal boil. I start the boil after the heating element is
covered
and once Im done sparging, its another 15-20 min(never really timed
it) to boiling. For what its
worth I recently insulated my BH with aluminized bubble wrap and it
seems to be holding up well.
Bob Ledden
Caln, Pa
BMJL93A@prodigy.co
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:51:42 -0600
From: lheavner@tcmail.frco.com
Subject: How fresh is fresh?
Hi!
The recent postings on green beer remind me of a question that I have
always had. When does a beer reach its prime? I know that it will
vary depending on the style and storage temperature. I am currently
bottling all of my beer and I haven't started lagering yet. But I
have tried just about every style possible w/o lagering. Sam Adams,
for one, is proud of their product dating. How old would it be when
it first gets to market? at the expiration date? I would experiment,
but in the past 17 years of homebrewing, I've never managed to keep
any around for more than a couple months after bottling. Is there a
reference that gives an indication of quality vs time for different
styles? Does anybody have any opinions? (nah, nobody in this
group...) I would be hoppy to summarize all feedback.
Regards,
Lou Heavner
<lheavner@frmail.frco.com>
"If you ain't the lead dog, the view never changes!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 15:25:15 CST
From: "John Boshier" <john.boshier@telops.gte.com>
Subject: Yeast Stepping and Homebrew Supplies
Hi All:
I have two unrelated questions. First, I've followed the Yeast pitching
thread with interest, but have to admit that a great deal of it is over my
head being a financial type rather than a scientist type. My question is:
can someone give me a relatively simple step by step procedure for
increasing the population of yeast cells in my samples to pitching levels.
I have taken samples (1 tbsp)of yeast from my primary fermenter, closed
them in canning jars with a sterile wort solution (1 pint) and stored in
the refrigerator. I take the samples from that sludge at the bottom of
the fermenter after racking. I let the gas pressure out of the jars about
once a week. This process is a la an article in *Brew Your Own* a few
months ago. What I don't know is how to step the sample up to a pitchable
quantity of yeast..help?
The second question is that I am going to put a business case together for
a homebrew supply store. I sick of driving a long way to shop for stuff.
Any input, suggestions and special circumstances to consider from those of
you with experience or opinions (as if any of us has an opinion on
something)would be very much appreciated. I am in Texas, so if anyone has
knowledge of special laws etc. please pass it along.
Thanks,
JB
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:43:29 -0600
From: snsi@win.bright.net (Jeff Smith)
Subject: Hops, roots, and bugs
Mike White added to his rhizomes mail order list with the following:
>Here are 2 more sources for hops rootstock for those of you who want to grow
>your own hops.
>Henry Field's <snip>
>Gurney's <snip>
Two years ago I ordered hops from Field's (I believe that Fields and
Gurney's are the same company). At that time they were nugget rhizomes.
But if I had it to do over I would have bought cascade or mount hood or the
like. You just can't be sure how bitter they are (unless some body out
there has a suggestion) so your probably better for with aroma hops
___________________________________________________________________
Cam Lay responded to David W. Boyd with the following.
>Oooh! A bug question! I can't resist!
>
>Since Dave is brewing in the shower, I suspect that they're psychodids or
>"drain flies." If so, they'll be dark with short oval wings with a fringe
>of dark hair around the edges.
Well Cam how about another bug question?
Late July though late September little winged monsters invade my brewing
area in the back hall. They have red eyes and feel the need to climb in my
air locks and commit suicide. And if I use vodka in my airlocks they
multiply. Lucky as it cools in the fall they disappear until the next
summer. If possible I'd like to find a way of controlling them naturally
without giving up brewing.
Its up to you Cam, name that bug.
TIA
PS Never complain about the cold (-40F or -40C, but I'm not complaining)
unless you want to change a tire in it.
Jeff Smith
'71 HD Sprint 350SX
'77 Suziki GS400 ????
snsi@win.bright.net
Barnes, WI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 18:09:48 EST
From: "George Danz (919) 405-3632" <danz@edasich.rtp.semi.harris.com>
Subject: fw:Beer poem
>For your enjoyment ...
>
>---forwarded message---->
>
>
>
> The Old Rose and Crown
>
>Good friends, gather 'round and I'll tell you a tale;
>It's a story well-known to all lovers of ale;
>For the old English pub, once a man's second home,
>Has been decked out, by brewers, in plastic and chrome.
>
>Oh, what has become of the old Rose and Crown,
>The Ship, the King's Arms, and the World Upside-Down?
>For oak, brass and leather and a pint of the best
>Fade away like the sun as it sinks in the west.
>
>The old oaken bar where the pumps filled your glass
>Gives way to formica and tanks full of gas;
>And the landlord behind, once a man of good cheer,
>Will just mumble the price as he hands you your beer.
>
>And where are the friends who would meet for a jar
>And a good game of darts in the old public bar?
>For the dartboard is gone; in its place is a thing
>Where you pull on a handle and lose all your tin.
>
>But the worst of it all's what they've done to the beer,
>For their shandies and lager will make you feel queer.
>For an arm and a leg they will fill up your glass
>With a half-and-half mixture of ullage and gas.
>
>So, come all you good fellows that likes to sup ale;
>Let's hope for a happier end to my tale,
>For there's nothing can fill a man's heart with more cheer
>Than to sit in a pub with a pint of good beer.
>
>
>Written and performed by Canadian artist Ian Robb.
>Taken from the _Secret Life of Beer_.
>
>
>
>
>Best Regards,
George E. Danz Snail Mail Address:
gdanz@harris.com PO Box 13996
(919)405-3632 Work Research Triangle Park, NC 27709
(919)405-3651 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:44:46 -0800
From: Bob Jones <bjones@bdt.com>
Subject: 1996 Bay Area Brewoof results
The results for the 1996 Bay Area Brewoff are available on the Draught Board
Homebrew Club's Homepage at http://www.bdt.com/home/bjones/drfbrd.html
Stop on by and check us out,
Bob Jones in Alamo, Calif.
bjones@bdt.com
http://www.bdt.com:80/home/bjones/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:51:26 +1100 (EST)
From: Ken Willing <kwilling@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Can oxidation happen early in the mash?
Persistent oxidation problem.
I've eliminated (I hope) all sources of HSA and other undesirable oxidation,
but I'm still getting some cardboardy taste, appearing as early as 4 weeks
after bottling, in beers with a high melanoidin content. According to
Martin Lodahl, this fault is most commonly mediated by melanoidins which
get oxidized e.g. by splashing hot wort, and then are involved (way
"downstream") in the conversion of alcohol to aldehydes in the bottle.
["One of the commonest symptoms of oxidation is a cardboard flavor caused by
2-trans-nonenal, a long-chain unsaturated aldehyde with a very low sensory
threshold." (Miller, CHHB, p.181)].
What I'm wondering is, can melanoidins get oxidized in the mash water? I
don't routinely pre-boil the mash water -- only draw it out of the foamy
kitchen faucet, then heat it on the stove up to my strike temp, i.e. 73C.
Under these conditions, would there still be air in that water, and could
the melanoidins get oxidized by it at this early stage of the mash?
Thanks.
Ken Willing <kwilling@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Sydney, Australia
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 00:30:42 EST
From: Paul Fisher <fisher@ltpmail.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Advantage of blowoff
Lately, the general consensus has been that blowoff is a silly idea that
provides no genuine advantages. The advantage is not in the blowoff, which
is just a side effect, but rather in the closed container system.
To be more explicit....
I live in a small apartment and own a dog.
The closed system allows me to check on the progress of my ferment without
exposing the batch to dog hair -- I own a tri-colored beagle, so there are
many flavors of contamination that could float by. The blowoff keeps the
unit from exploding or supplying midafternoon beverages for the canine (dogs
licking the airlock just ain't sanitary).
Enough said.
- --Paul
- -----------------------------------
Paul Fisher
fisher@ltpmail.gsfc.nasa.gov
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 00:31:05 EST
From: Paul Fisher <fisher@ltpmail.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: M & F Dry Yeast
gilad@orbotech.co.il stated problems with M & F dry yeast, and an F. G. of
only 1.017...
I've had a similar experience with M & F dry ale yeast. I couldn't get the
S. G. lower than 1.015, I think it might be the strain, but would need more
info to know for sure.
Has anyone else found this to be a problem?
- --Paul
- -----------------------------------
Paul Fisher
fisher@ltpmail.gsfc.nasa.gov
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:41:57 -0500 (EST)
From: RG Belville <belville@umich.edu>
Subject: Blowoff/Late fill up
All of this talk about the blowoff method has made me a little worried
about the method I've taken with my first brew...
I only filled the carboy up with about four gallons of water for the
first few days of fermentation. After the krausen had diminished, I
filled 'er up with to the neck (it's a five gallon carboy).
What are the problems with this method? Thanks.
keep smiling, people
--------------------
RG Belville - belville@umich.edu
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~belville
Ann Arbor, MI, USA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 08:03:54 PST
From: hollen@vigra.com
Subject: AHA Competition Forms Needed
Does anyone know of a source for the official AHA Competition forms in
ASCII or preferably HTML format online anywhere? I can get them via
FTP or WWW if necessary.
thanks,
dion
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119 Email: hollen@vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer Vigra, Inc. San Diego, California
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 03:22:08 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer@engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Grain Volume / Heat Capacity
In my experience, a pound of grain is much larger than 0.32 quart. A
pound of *water* is half a quart, and grain is lighter than water
(until you wet it, anyway). Maybe you mean that a pound of grain,
added to sufficient water, increases its volume by 0.32 quarts?
Malted barley has a heat capacity about 0.3 - 0.4 that of water,
depending on its moisture content. (Source: a posting by Rob Thomas a
couple of years ago. I think he got it from Malting & Brewing Science.)
=Spencer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:51:17 +10
From: "Dave Draper" <david.draper@mq.edu.au>
Subject: Whaddaya think?
PEthen writes:
>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:59:41 -0500
>From: PEthen@aol.com
>Subject: Cancel
>Cancel my mail!!!!!!!!!
Should we tell him???
Naaaaaaah!
Cheers, Dave in Sydney
"...yeast contain the mechanism of their own destruction."
- ---Charlie Scandrett
- ---
***************************************************************************
David S. Draper, Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, Sydney NSW Australia
Email: david.draper@mq.edu.au Home page: http://www.ocs.mq.edu.au/~ddraper
...I'm not from here, I just live here...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:43:38 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan@cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: Carboy Cleanup
What's the fuss about cleaning a carboy after a primary fermentation. Just
dump in some B-brite, fill with hot tap water and leave it overnight. In
the morning rinse it with hot water once or twice, rinse with iodophor, put
plastic wrap over the carboy mouth and put the carboy away until it's
needed. Why scrub when the B-brite will do the work for you?
Bob
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Bob McCowan
voice: (508)-922-6000 x208
ATG/Receiver-Protector fax: (508)-922-8914
CPI BMD
Formerly Varian CF&RPP e-mail: bob.mccowan@cfrp.varian.com
Beverly, MA 01915
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 07:34:57 -0600
From: Marty Tippin <martyt@sky.net>
Subject: Carboy Cleaning
All this recent discussion of open fermentation vs. blowoff and Jack's
suggestion that cleaning the carboy was a PITA has finally given me the
uncontrollable urge to post to the HBD (I've been lurking for quite a while
but haven't felt the need to say anything...)
Cleaning a carboy with nasty gunk stuck to the inside of it is probably one
of the easiest things I run into in my brewing process. 1/2 cup of bleach,
some (very) warm water and about 24 hours is all it takes to *completely*
remove any trace of anything stuck to the inside of the thing - no scrubbing
and very little thought is involved - in fact, I don't even *own* a carboy
brush. After a day's soaking, I just empty the carboy and it's sparkling clean.
Before anyone jumps on me, I should point out that one ought to use caution
when introducing warm liquids into a glass carboy, as differences in thermal
expansion between the cool outside and the suddenly warmed inside may cause
the thing to shatter. I usually put in the hottest tap water I can get
(around 135F) and it hasn't exploded yet. But it might be a better idea to
use cooler water. And in fact, I recently read where cool water helps the
bleach work better. So use your own judgement.
Now, as far as open fermentation goes, it sounds neat but I remain
unconvinced that I should change my current closed carboy system... And as
for blowoff, that became a thing of the past when I went from a 5 to a 6.5
gallon carboy - with no perceptible difference in my beers. So, as someone
recently pointed out, I've got something that's working for me and I'll
stick with it until curiosity gets to me and I feel like trying something
else...
-Marty
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 07:43:17 CDT
From: SCHWAB_BRYAN@CCMAIL.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: ???
At the risk of sounding extremely anal, and getting Flamed, I submit
the following to the collective for assistance.
For the past couple of years I have used dry yeast rehydrated and
"smack packs" with a starter.
What I have tried lately is to use the "yeast" from some of the
commerical Trappist Ales I have enjoyed.
What I do, without a great deal of sucess is to make a starter with
some dry malt extract, about 4 tablespoons, to a pint of water, heated
and cooled. When cooled to 75 degrees I pitch the yeast into a
Champange bottle and wait. When adding this to my cooled wort on
brewing day, I wait, and wait, and still wait until I give in and
finally add a rehydrated dry "Ale" yeast. Even after I have added
some yeast "energizers" to the stuck ferememtor. It seems when trying
to re-use the commerical yeast, the only way I can acheive favorable
results is to add dry yeast and energizers.
Where Am I going wrong?? I have heard from the digest good results
from others, have even read articles on the subject and yet I get poor
results. Temps. are checked and pitching is at equal temps. I have
even added 1-2 hop pellets to the starter to feed it, and still slow,
slower and dead still ferments going this route.
Ok, send in the anal comments now :)
Bryan E. Schwab
SCHWAB_BRYAN@CCMAIL.NCSC.NAVY.MIL
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 09:06:46 EST
From: "Tom Williams" <Tom_Williams@ccmail.eo.ray.com>
Subject: Galvanized pipe
In 2/1/96 HBD Keith Royster asked about galvanized pipes:
> I was planning on using an inexpensive galvanized pipe as the housing
> for my electrical hot water heating element (SS=to expensive and plastic
> is a fire hazard). But before I do this, it seemed only prudent to
> ask what effects this might have on me and my beer.
Unfortunately, I have only anecdotal stories about the hazards of the zinc
on galvanized material. I am reasonably sure that it is hazardous when
oxidized, such as when cut with a torch or welded. Perhaps the pH of your
wort could cause leaching.... I don't know - I'm sure the chemists will
post on this topic.
However, why not use another material and not worry? Stainless may be too
expensive, but surely your source for galvanized pipe also has copper? I
would think that copper pipe and fittings would be suitable for your
application and less expensive than stainless.
Good luck!
Tom Williams Raytheon Engineers & Constructors
Tom_Williams@ccmail.eo.ray.com Norcross, Georgia, USA
------------------------------
Date: 1 Feb 1996 09:55:43 U
From: "J PASSANTE" <joe@oehs.upenn.edu>
Subject: Valley Mill Rollers
REGARDING Valley Mill Rollers
This is part of an email I received from Randy Kay (valley@web.apc.org), of
Valley Brewing Equipment, concerning their mill.
==========
VALLEY MILL TECHNICAL SPECS. (as of Jan. 1, 1996)
Overall measurements:
Height 16"
Width 9"
Depth 5"
Weight: 10 lbs.
Hopper:
Constructed of FDA approved plastic. Malt capacity approximately 6 lbs.
Roller s:
Two heavy duty , non-corrosive diamond patterned textured rollers
Length 8"
Diameter 1.25"
=============
I've no affiliation nor have I purchased the mill. You can get a complete
description and price information if you email Randy.
Joe Passante
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:23 EST
From: CSS2@OAS.PSU.EDU (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
Subject: oscura?/kegging observations
While on one of my pilgramiges to Philly last weekend, I had a chance to stop
at the Dock Street Brewery and sample a few of their finest. The alt was
outstanding, the barleywine gigantic, but the beer that really caught my
interest was the Oscura. The bartender explained that it was a "Mexican
Vienna Lager" - dark in color, but smooth and very drinkable.
Does anyone know anything more about this type of beer? Origins? Recipes?
What makes it unique? I had never even heard the word "oscura" before last
Saturday...
Having recently converted to kegging, I now almost dread the aspect of
bottling my brew. But I have noticed that the 2 week wait that is required
for bottle conditioning serves a valuable purpose. While it is true that you
can keg and force carbonate your beer one night and drink it the next, the
beer is much better if allowed to sit for a week or two. I guess this should
be intuatively obvious, but the extra time allows some of the hop harshness to
mellow and provides a much nicer, small-bubbled head than "new beer".
One last question: with a properly santized keg and constant pressure
maintained, how long will homebrew keep in a corny keg? Has anyone ever had
beer go bad in a keg? Just curious...
Thanks for any info....
Curt Speaker - yeast rancher
css2@oas.psu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 10:24:24 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla@salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: root-beer, pressure & yeast, aeration at 12 hr.s
In Digest #1940:
SSLOFL@ccmail.monsanto.com wrote:
[snip]
>My question is, why don't all of the bottles explode?!! You throw
>in 4 pounds of sugar into 4 gallons with a pack of CHAMPAGNE yeast!!
[snip]
>Can anyone out there offer an explanation? Maybe it is a simple
>one that I am overlooking - those are the hardest to see at times.
>Collective? ... Tracy in Vermont? (I'm a big fan!), ...anyone?
Thanks for the vote of confidence! There was much discussion of this
issue last summer. I missed most of it, as I don't make root-beer (yet). My
guess is, there are probably several reasons you don't have glass-grenades.
The most likely explanation I can think of is, there aren't enough nutrients
for the yeast to keep growing long enough to finish fermenting all that
sugar. When making beer from barley malt, the wort has all the necessary
nutrients the yeast needs, including nitrogen (ammonium and amino acids),
essential salts (containing phosphate, sulfate, and minerals like calcium),
and various lipids essential for strong membranes. If you only mix sugar and
water, the yeast doesn't have access these nutrients and won't be able to
grow very much. I imagine if the temperature is high enough and the
root-beer is stored long enough, the bottles might eventually explode, so I
wouldn't let the kids handle them. I'd also try to store them in the fridge
once they're fully carbonated, just to slow the yeast down. Another
alternative might be to bottle the soda in empty plastic soda bottles. These
bottles can handle quite a bit of pressure, and even if they burst, I doubt
if anyone would be seriously injured.
As an aside, root-beer is the only kind of soft drink I really like. I
think I'm going to make some soon!
Then kens@lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder) wrote:
[snip]
>There has been referance that fermenting under pressure is not a good
>practice. I have recently tried this and found no noticable effects.
>The idea came from a very good brewer who sugested a 40psi environemnt
>in a corny keg for secondary. He uses this practice, I have and I haven't
>notice any ill effects. Can anyone elaborate on the effects of such a
>practice? Tracy, Al, George, anyone?
I haven't done much fermenting under pressure, but I think 40 psi is OK for
the secondary. In fact, I usually just let the pressure build up in the
secondary (when using a keg). However, pressure this high will probably slow
the yeast down some, so I wouldn't try it for the primary fermentation.
>The second question stems from a recent problem in my brewery. I brewed a
>Martzen and allowed it form a cold break before transferr to the primary
>fermentor. I attempted to aerate with pure O2 but found my bottle empty.
>Since it was to late a night to get another, I shook the carboys, pitched
>and set them in the ferment refridgerator. The next morning I got a fresh
>O2 bottle and aerated, though the ferment was just beginning. I am
>curious if this practice may cause oxidation or other ill effects.
>The second ariation was within 12hrs of the first. Any takers?
I don't think one can provide too much oxygen during the first day or so
after pitching, especially with a lager fermented at a low temp. Should be fine.
>Next my comments, are directed toward the new HBD members.
[snip]
>I just take most of the opinions here with a grain of salt and
>try things out in my brewery to determine if an idea works for me or not.
>I encourage all readers that empirical testing in your brewery is the only
>true test for ideas presented here. [snip]
Good point. I agree, methods are as diverse as people are. Use what works
for you and experiment. Don't believe everything you read (I don't!).
>And last: THANKS TRACY! Your posts are some of the most informative I have
>seen in the HBD. Keep it up! (If you write a book, I'll buy it!)
Gee, thanks :-} (I'm blushing now). I've been enjoying myself as well, and
I've learned quite a bit here too. This is a great group of people.
The HBD makes my morning!
Tracy in Vermont
aquilla@salus.med.uvm.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:45:12 -0500
From: KennyEddy@aol.com
Subject: More on Grain Volume & Heat Capacity
Spencer Thomas made a comment on my Volume/Heat Capacity figures:
>In my experience, a pound of grain is much larger than 0.32 quart. A
>pound of *water* is half a quart, and grain is lighter than water
>(until you wet it, anyway). Maybe you mean that a pound of grain,
>added to sufficient water, increases its volume by 0.32 quarts?
>
>Malted barley has a heat capacity about 0.3 - 0.4 that of water,
>depending on its moisture content. (Source: a posting by Rob Thomas a
>couple of years ago. I think he got it from Malting & Brewing Science.)
>
>=Spencer
I'm simply quoting some previous postings, although in my experiences with
5-gallon cooler mashing, with a 10-lb grain bill and mash water, the volume
was pretty much 4+ gallons (10 lb x 0.32 qt/lb grain volume + 10lb x 1.3
qt/lb mash water = 4.05 gal) after the strike. Seems there were a bunch of
numbers quoted for the heat capacity along the way; your figures may be
closer to the truth.
Anyhow, your comment about "a pound of grain added to sufficient water
increases is volume by 0.32 quarts" is probably applicable, since that is
what we're doing. Dry grain probably would be "fluffy" enough to occupy more
"apparent" volume, at least until water is added to take up the fluffying
airspace. I do get quite an evolution of bubbles when the strike water is
added.
I would refer you all to excellent articles in HBD 1796 (Dan Sherman
<dsherman@sdcc3.ucsd.edu>) for the source of my numbers on grain volume; for
heat capacity data I used info in HBD 1880 ("Wallinger, W. A."
<WAWA@chevron.com>) although another post I just now found in HBD 1879
(fredriks@abel.math.umu.se (Fredrik Stahl)) corroborates your numbers.
Thanks for the reality check!
Ken Schwartz
KennyEddy@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 08:02:47 PST
From: kens@lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder)
Subject: Cleaning Carboys
My contribution to the carboy cleaning thread is this : TSP. It has been
my practice to fill a dirty carboy about 25% full of water and add
"some" TSP. "Some" is a purely unmeasured amount and probably way to much
but what's a couple of more teaspoons full gonna hurt? I shake the carboy to
disolve the TSP, then fill the carboy up. I let the carboy sit at least 4
hours, but most often overnight. When it time actually clean the vessel, the
caked on trub, crud and stuff, virtually wipes off. I do use a "carboy" brush,
but the "crud" virtually falls right off without scrubbing. This works
very well for me, and might for you, give it a try!
Ken Schroeder
Sequoia Brewing (Where using technology to reduce the work load is
a welcomed practice.)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 09:51:54 CST
From: korz@pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Competition Announcment
This year's Brewers of South Suburbia Homebrew Competition
will be held Saturday March 23rd at the brand-new
Flossmoor Station Brewpub in Flossmoor, IL
Last year, there were over $600 in prizes and I suspect
there should be a similar amount (if not more) this year.
This competition has been sanctioned by both the AHA and BJCP.
For more information: Bob Ward 708-403-6666 or Marty Nachel 708-614-MALT.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 09:38:57 MST
From: roberts@Rt66.com (Doug Roberts)
Subject: Re:
>>>>> "Steve" == Steve Adams <paa3765@dpsc.dla.mil> writes:
Steve> Ladies and Gentlemen Brewers:
Steve> Eventually, I rolled over on my stomach and found
Steve> that the internal force that I was generating was great
Steve> enough to create a short emission or two every few seconds.
Steve> Thus an embarrassing part of my anatomy became an air lock,
Steve> and I, poor I, a human fermenter of sorts. I didn't sleep
Steve> a wink, either. (Sorry about the bandwidth.)
Steve> @SA
Sounds like you really had a gas...
- --Doug
- --
Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either.
Doug Roberts
roberts@rt66.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:19:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983@dpsc.dla.mil>
Subject: Starters & Dr. Raines
It's with kind permission from Dr. Raines of Brewtek/Brewers Resource
fame that I reproduce this post she sent me regarding starters.
I had asked her questions on the differnces between yeast activity in
starters and in fermentation in a full batch of beer:
> Let me make myself perfectly clear.
>
> Yeast propagation is not equal to or the same as fermentation.
>
> The purpose of a starter: increase yeast to reasonable number to pitch
> into beer. The purpose of fermentation is to make an enjoyable
> beverage. It doesn't matter what the wort of your starter tastes like
> (you don't even have to add all that spent wort to your fermenter if you
> let the yeast settle out first).
>
> Best way to increase yeast in a starter is to optimize yeast growth.
> Guess what! Yeast grow better and to higher numbers with air and at room
> temperature rather than at fermenting temperatures.
>
> The only caveat is that the yeast must be treated in such a way that they
> will ferment the beer once they are added to the yeast. For example,
> 1.020 starter will give more yeast but the yeast won't ferment the beer
> very well because it gets shocked by the high gravity of the wort in the
> fermenter. (BTW this is what Wyeast recommends; NOT!!) A 1.040 starter
> on the other hand usually is fine because most beers are 1.045-1.060
> gravity. If you're making a barleywine increase the gravity of your
> starter to about 1.060.
>
> So the bottom line is a starter must be treated to optimize yeast growth
> without comprimising fermentation performance. The recommendations I
> sent your buddy are take this into consideration. Needless to say they
> don't really differ much from what the brewing industry does except the
> step-up thing which I think needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
>
There are way too many misconceptions in
> homebrewing that are propagating in the brewing books. It's time to
> start dispelling some of them.
> Cheers!
> MB
Mike in Cherry Hill NJ
------------------------------
Date: 1 Feb 1996 08:54:57 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Use of Galvanized pipe in RIMS
Keith asked about using Galvanized Pipe as the container for his RIMS Heater.
I would definitely not recommend the use of this material for this application
based on the propensity for the zinc to dissolve into wort or water due to
galvanic corrosion. Plus, as soon at the zinc dissolves away, you will be
tasting iron. Frankly, I would use aluminum or Plastic - HDPE, if stainless is
not an option.
You know, I bet if you work on it, you could probably find a way to use some
inexpensive piece of aluminum or stainless cookware as the chamber. Drill a few
holes, put a gasket under the lid, I bet it could work.
Bear in mind that I have not built a RIMS unit myself, I am speaking from a
materials perspective to the working fluid.
John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P
johnj@primenet.com Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:15:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia@zgi.com>
Subject: Carboy cleaning
> In HBD #1947 Jack writes...
>> Cleaning out a carboy that was used for primary fermentation has got
>> to be number one on the list. Compare that to cleaning out a classic
>> 7 gallon fermenter.
>
> In HBD #1950 Bill Rust writes:
>Couldn't agree more. I got yeast and trub dried on the inside of my glass
>carboy, not pretty...
I couldn't disagree more. 1 cup of bleach in a 5-7 gallon carboy,
fill and let sit for a few days, then rinse. Trivial.
Domenick Venezia
Computer Resources
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia@zgi.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:09:17 -0500 (EST)
From: "Kathy Booth (Waverly)" <kbooth@isd.ingham.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Yeast storage temperatures
I have a yeast bank and wonder what would be the prefered
temperature for it to be stored?
Also, is there a source of yeast bank stocks prepared for storage
at freezer temperatures?
Thanks for the advice and all the interesting submissions.
Jim Booth Lansing, Mi
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1951, 02/02/96
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