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HOMEBREW Digest #1911
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1995/12/16 PST
HOMEBREW Digest #1911 Sat 16 December 1995
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: CO2 in solution - misinformation, (Steve Alexander)
Filtering/Carbination (John Parker)
Re: SA/Legal "Homebrew" Type Opinion (Demetrius J. Karos )
Sanitation and bottling (Mark Redman)
Modifying Gott cooler lids and other uses (Jim Hall)
Cheap Keg alert! (Michael Demers)
Re: Is it true that..... (Jeff Renner)
Grain Mill Survey (Michael Genito)
/ Mashout (Rob Reed)
Twas a While Before Christmas ("Palmer.John")
Where's the CO2 during bottle conditioning? (Dr. David C. Harsh)
Protein rests & trub (Jim Busch)
Re: Exploding Bottles (Gary McCarthy)
Boiling Hops (William Shelton)
Re: Protein rest during decoctions (Jim Dipalma)
Re: Sake Style rice wine (Matthew Saunders)
Stuck Bock (Paul D. Wiatroski)
Kolsch pronunciation and formulation. ("John McCafferty")
Re: Oak Chips in IPA (w.r.) crick" <crick@bnr.ca>
Flushing and drying a CFWC (Rob Emenecker)
Quality is... (Kyle R Roberson)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:29:31 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <stevea@clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 in solution - misinformation,
Gee - this is the terse version since there's an 8KB posting limit !
In Homebrew Digest #1907 (December 12, 1995), SLGibson71@aol.com
writes:
>I am a new comer to HBD. This is my first post, but here's my
>$0.02.
>
>Algis Korzonas writes:
>>>As for Kelly's assertion that "The newly produced CO2 is
...
>>part, right? Time to hand off to the physicists...
>
>Sorry, this statement simply cannot be completely correct. Let's
>see if I can explain why.
...
>The CO2 must be produced in solution. Where are the yeast? In
>solution. They are part of the solution.
Yeast are not soluable in water. They are perhaps small enough, and of
a proper density to remain in SUSPENSION due to brownian motion, but
they are never in solution. Most of the CO2 produced in an
unpressurized fermenter just bubbles off thru the airlock. The amount
of CO2 that will remain in solution at EQUILIBRIUM is dependent on
temperature and pressure; increasing with HIGHER pressure and with
LOWER temperature.
>... I think the real question here is
>will the liquid take up any more CO2? I do not think siphoning would cause
>the lose
>of dissolved CO2, but any agitation, such as liquid splashing
>into glass on transfer would cause lose of dissolved CO2. I
...
A decrease in pressure will cause some of the CO2 to come out of
solution. A siphon operates on just such a pressure differential.
Stirring and agitation also causes pressure differentials, but I'm not
certain whether other effects, such as introducing tiny gas bubbles,
which may increase in size as CO2 in solution contacts the gas bubbles
isn't the main effect here.
>A good way at looking at fermentation, is to picture the entire
>process as the half-life of a nuclear molecule: very violent and
>active at first and slowly over time becomes dormant. The time
...
Atoms have a nucleus, not molecules. Individual nuclei don't act this
way, but large statistical collections of nuclei do decay at an
exponential rate - which I think you are alluding to.
....
>The concentration of fermentable sugars is directly proportional
>to the metabolism and rates of division among the yeast present.
...
This initial reproduction phase is primarily limited by available
oxygen in solution ... the rise in yeast cell population is probably
limited by an exponential reproduction limit when the other obvious
requirements are met. At commercial pitching rates and conditions
only a 5 to 10 fold total increase in yeast mass is seen - which could
be accomplished in an hour or two of optimal reproduction. Conclusions:
Reproduction of the yeast probably isn't a big issue after the first day.
During the fermentation I'd expect that the rate is very dependent on
the available fermentable carbo's. Excess glucose induces the
crabtree effect where yeast doesn't bother to reproduce - just
eat. Yeast must create enzymes to break down various other wort
sugars into glucose in order to survive. How effectively yeast can
produce such enzymes may limit the rate at which they can metabolize
these sugars. Some of the trace minerals that are good to have in your
wort (like chromium for example) occur in these enzymes - so low
levels of these trace minerals could also limit the rate. I'd suspect
yeast would ferment a wort that consists of all maltose much more
quickly than one that is all malTRIose or arabinose. If your
fermentation slows down - perhaps it's because all the 'easy' sugars
have been fermented out. It's not as simple as more sugar equals more
yeast activity. In fact bees' preserve sugar as honey by INCREASING
sugar concentration till osmotic pressure prevents yeast growth !
I believe that the original statement that most of the priming sugars
are fermented out in a few days is essentially correct when priming
with easily fermentable corn sugar. Things are more problematic
if priming with saved wort or malt extract.
The increase in SG due to priming is on the order of .0022 (3/4 cup =
0.25 pound @ 45 pt/gal/lbs). Compared with a 1.045 OG, this is around
5% - quite a bit. Remember too that additional oxygen during bottling
should put the remaining yeast back into a reproductive phase too - so
cell count shouldn't be too much of an issue in the bottle fermentation.
Termination of fermentation and can have a very quick exponential cell
population decline phase, but it can also start out with impaired cell
function and fermentation can be extended by the protective effect of
the autolysing yeast sediment.
>As far as the CO2 in the headspace coming back into solution,
>there is some transfer of CO2 molecules back and forth between
...
CO2 is soluable in water, but is tends to 'boil' or bubble off as you
might expect since the beer temperature is higher than it's boiling
point at the 1 to 3 atmospheres pressures (15-45psi) that we deal
with. Below a certain concentration of CO2 the boiling ceases and
eventually an equilibrium condition arises. Carbonated water will
hold some additional CO2 above the equilibrium amount in a
super-saturated state after pressure is released - then it slowly
approaches equilibrium by effervesing. Super-saturation explains why
all the gas doesn't come out of the beer at once when you open the
bottle.
The rate at which the equilibrium is reached increases with gas/liquid
contact area, so shaking the bottles would help disolve CO2. The rate
at which the gas goes into solution decreases exponentially as
equilibrium is approached. I don't have any time constant - but it
is reasonable to assume that this will take some time. Dave Miller
might be right after all.
If you want to hurry the process, try placing the bottles someplace
colder after the bottle fermentation has ceased. This will increase the
amount of gas in solution at equilibrium for a given pressure. After
you've driven the state to one where the amount of gas dissolved is at
the desired level, then return the bottles to serving temperature. I
haven't tried this but it should decrease the amount of time necessary
to reach equilibrium.
It is also interesting to note that the amount of head space in the
bottle neck could substantially effect how quickly equilibrium is
reached. With a very small amount of neck space, a small increase in
CO2 causes a dramatic rise in gas pressure which throws the mix way out
of equilibrium which causes it to re-approach equilibrium at a greater
rate. Another argument in favor of small neck space. Unfortunately
decreasing neck space also removes some oxygen which *may* limit
yeast reproduction meaning a longer time for the bottle fermentation
to complete.
>Finally, liquids are compressable. Just ask any scuba diver. A
...
Just isn't so. Hydraulics wouldn't work if this was so. Scuba divers
would have to add MORE ballast weight as they went deeper (which they
don't) and water became denser. Water is very nearly 1kg/liter
density from 0.002 atmospheres to 400 atmospheres and beyond.
SLGibson71 - PLEASE don't interpret this response as personal
criticism - it isn't. I disagree with some of your statements but I'm
very pleased to see a new contributor to HBD, and your post really did
make me think about what is happening in the bottle fermentation.
Steve Alexander
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:05:48 -0500
From: jparker@procom.procom.net (John Parker)
Subject: Filtering/Carbination
Attention: Denis Barsalo
Mitch Hogg
Your quite right Denis! If you bottle condition your beer, you WILL have
sediment.
I also filter my beer through a wine filter, with good results and then
force carbinate at home.It's easy.
As in anything,it requires an initial outlay of $$$ but the cost is not
extravagant, and is more than made up for in the convenience of being able
to do the intire job in-house.The equipment required and aprox. cost are as
follows.
(1) Carbon Dioxide in an 80 lbs bottle. Cost $100.00 (CDN)(Thats just what I
have.There are many different sized bottles one can buy).My full bottle has
lasted three years now! and is still going strong.
(2) One pressure-cylinder mount, regulator for above. Cost $125.00-150.00 (CDN)
(3) General beverage containers, such as the "Cornelius" or "Firestone".I
picked up used ones from a homebrew/winemaking store for $50.00 each.
Thier capacity is 18 litre. Height 25". Dia. 8.5 . Weight 8.87 lbs..
Four of them fit nicely in a standard sized refrigerator,you know,the old
one you turned exclusively into a beer frig.
(4) Hand held dispenser $20.00 or a polished brass,double faucet,draft beer
dispensing tower like the one I use. Cost $250.00 (CDN)
(5) Miscellaneous fittings and tubing $50.00.
Once your set up you can bottle beer from the despensing unit if you
like,and yes it would be sediment free, but why bother.Just get yourself a
cold glass from the freezer and fill it from your taps. Enjoy!
PS: This is an overview.If you would like more detailed info. or just have a
question or two E-Mail me. jparker@mail.procom.net
John Parker, Thunderbay, Ontario, Canada.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:58:51 -0800
From: dkaros@ix.netcom.com (Demetrius J. Karos )
Subject: Re: SA/Legal "Homebrew" Type Opinion
I think that I have heard about enough of the trademark cases of Sam
Adams et al. Let me offer a few tidbits about trademark law.
Trademark law is what I call a "use it or lose it" type of law. The
owner of the trademark is required to defend his or her trademark when
on notice of an infringement. Also, the trademark must be within the
same designated industry. For example, the Sam Adams Travel Agency may
not infringe upon the Sam Adams Beer trademark.
Many a time, McDonalds Restuarant gets bad press because they beat up
on some lonely mom and pop restuarant in rural America. The reason is
that the restuarant is using the McDonalds name (trademark) in their
restuarant. It is not that McDonalds is threatened by some greasy
spoon in a rural location. The reason is that McDonalds is required to
defend such trademark.
I admit that I have not read all of the aforemention cases, but the
above will give some perspective on the law.
Demetrius
An attorney who was a CPA in a prior life.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 21:31:25 -0500
From: Mark Redman <brewman@vivid.net>
Subject: Sanitation and bottling
I've been all-grain brewing for a few years now, but I still bottle the
old-fasioned way, with corn sugar and 22 oz. bottles. I'll get around to
kegging as soon as space permits. In the meantime, I have a few questions
about sanitation and bottling that have been bugging me.
1) Since I brew a lot of pilsners (all malt German, not lawnmower beer), I
use oxygen absorbing caps, which clearly state "DO NOT WASH OR BOIL CAPS!"
Well, I've always been one to follow directions, so I don't. This seems to
go against
what I have read, especially since you must turn the bottle upside down to
activate the absorbing capabilities. My question: If the caps are never
exposed to any wort or beer prior to capping, what beer spoiling bacteria
can grow on the exposed plastic? I would guess bacteria such as
Lactobacillus wouldn't have much luck, but what about some others? Since
I've never been counted off for off-flavors due to contamination in any
competitions, either I've been very lucky or the plastic media just doesn't
allow much bacterial contamination without any previous exposure to wort,
food, etc. Comments?
2} I know I've read that you shouldn't expose plastics to bleach solutions
for more than one hour, but I am always soaking racking tubing, buckets, etc.,
overnight to accelerate the bottling process without any obvious problems.
What are the possible side effects? How about Phils Filler (brass)? The
directions clearly state that you shouldn't soak it in a chlorine solution,
yet I always soak it for about 20 minutes (allright, I don't ALWAYS follow
directions) without any obvious problems. Side effects?
3) Bonus Question (25 points) How come my lagers always foam worse than my
ales when I'm bottling? I would think it would be the other way around.
Lager temps are 48 degrees F and ale temps are 68 degrees F. Looking forward
to hearing some replies. Sincerely, brewman@vivid.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:13:54 -0800
From: Jim Hall <jhall@northcoast.com>
Subject: Modifying Gott cooler lids and other uses
OK, so there are 1,000,000 ways to set up a 10 gal. Gott cooler with =
false=20
bottoms, copper pipes, etc. So let's put a lid on it and sparge. Not =
just=20
the plain old white lid though. How about a modified lid? Here's my=20
modifications:
narrow dia. brass
tube |
|
|
sliding bead + Phil's Sparge Arm =20
| || Thermometer=20
slightly larger | || =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
tube through lid||| || |
||| || |
[][|||[][][][][]]||[][][][][][]|][]]
[][|||[[]Foam]][]||[Insulation]|]][]
[][|||[][][][][][||][][][][]][]|][[]
|--|||-----------||------------|---|
| ||| Gott || Lid | |
|__|||___________||____________|___|
| ||| || | |
| | =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | =
|
| | | |
| | | |
| | |--wine bottle cork | |
| |_| | |
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|^^^|
| 1" liquid above grain | |
=
|=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D|=3D=3D=3D|
| | |
| grain bed | |
| | |
| |
| |
___ | |
|||_| |
| __ |
|| |__________________________________|
=20
Beyond insulating the top of the lid, the ASCII drawing shows three=20
modifications. The one on the left monitors the height of the mash =
liquid. =20
A wine cork floats on top of the liquid and raises and lowers a narrow =
2'=20
long small (3/32"+/-) diameter brass tube that is inserted in the cork. =
You=20
could use a small diameter brass rod instead. I chose the tube since =
its=20
lighter in weight. The 2' tube rides inside a 6" long slightly larger=20
diameter brass tube installed through the top of the lid. I purchased =
the=20
tubes at the hardware store for $2. The middle alteration is just an 8" =
Phil's sparge arm installed directly through the lid rather than the pvc =
pipe it comes with. The one on the right is an 18" compost thermometer.
Here's how I use it. During mashing I install the lid with the=20
measuring tube removed and do my normal mash and mash-out routine. =
After=20
mash-out, I recirculate the runnings until clear (a couple of quarts =
usually=20
for my system). Then I draw off enough liquid from the cooler into the=20
boiling pot to bring the level of the liquid in the cooler down to about =
1"=20
above the grain bed. I then re-install the lid with the measuring tube =
in=20
place. I slide a small drilled wooden bead down the measuring tube =
while the=20
cork is floating on top of the liquid to about 1/4" above the top of the =
sleeve/tube the tube rides in. I use this mark to maintain the 1" =
liquid=20
level above the grain bed. I then sparge using Phil's gadget with the =
lid on=20
to keep the heat and steam from escaping during the hour long process. =
If the=20
bead lowers, I increase the sparge water flow to the sparge arm or =
vice-versa=20
if the bead goes up.
If you really want to get fancy you can buy or scrounge another cooler =
to put=20
your heated sparge water in to maintain its temperature. Then its just=20
a matter of connecting a tube from that cooler to the sparge arm. I've=20
gained an average 2 pts. per lb. of grain since keeping the lid on =
during=20
sparging. Does the gain outweigh the gadget cost? It'll probably take =
20 to=20
25 batches to break even.
One last note on Gott coolers, I also use my cooler when chilling the =
wort=20
after the boil. I take a 25 foot immersion chiller I bought years ago=20
and replaced with a 45 foot immersion chiller in the boil pot and put it =
in the Gott cooler. I fill the cooler to the top of the chiller with=20
ice cubes from the refrigerator ice maker. I then connect the 25 foot=20
chiller between the faucet and the chiller in the boil pot. Although =
this=20
does bring the wort temperature down a lot faster, the real advantage to =
me is the ability to get the wort down to 64-65 degrees. It has been =
nearly=20
impossible to get below 70 degrees F. using just faucet temperature =
water. =20
In the past, when I pitched American Wyeast and some others in 70 degree =
wort, the fermenting wort would shoot up to 75 to 78 degrees causing, I=20
believe, some faint and not so faint soapy and solvent flavors.
After cooling the wort down to 64-65 degrees, American Wyeast raises the =
temp. of the wort to 72 degrees and then drops off from there. I'm not =
sure or haven't been able to determine for sure what the ideal ambient =
temp. should be once the ferment temp. starts dropping. Of late, I've =
been trying to maintain a steady 68 degree ambient temp. by submerging =
the carboy up to about 1/2 inch from the top of the fermenting wort in a =
water-filled, 12 gallon, plastic storage container with a submerged =
aquarium heater. That seems to work OK for now.
Cheers,
Jim Hall
Eureka, California
jhall@northcoast.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 16:38:33 -0500
From: Michael Demers <mdemers@ctron.com>
Subject: Cheap Keg alert!
Hello group,
Sorry for the regional post but I just picked up some
really clean, totally re-conditioned kegs for $15.
I picked them up at Amber Waves Homebrew shop in
Rochester, New Hampshire. This is the best deal on
kegs I've been able to find and I've been holding out
for a while. For more info, email: beerman@amberwaves.mv.com
Mike D.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 08:29:41 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Is it true that.....
In HBD 1909, troat@one.net (Todd W. Roat) asked:
>
> Someone told me that the
> fermenting beer in a carboy is several degrees warmer
> than the air outside the carboy because the chemical
> reactions taking place within the carboy during
> fermentation generate heat/energy. In a 60 degree house
> during Winter, could one put some faith in this "theory"
> and assume the fermenting ale to be at 65 degrees? Im
> hoping what they meant by "several" degrees warmer means
> about 5 degrees.
Don't count on it. I use a liquid crystal strip thermometer (Fermometer
is one brand) that sticks to the side of the carboy and measures the
temperature of the fermenting wort, presumably, although it could be
argued that it is only measuring the outside of the glass, which is
somewhere between the wort and air temperatures.
Anyway, there is indeed metabolic heat generated by the fermenting yeast
(and this is ultimately a chemical reaction). However, it has been my
experience that with small ferments (like five gallons) in glass, the
heat is dissipated virtually as fast as it is produced, so the wort is
about the ambient temperature. But if you insulate it, you can keep the
heat up. I just finished a ferment that began at 70F, but since the
house was so cold during this cold snap (avg. 64F), I put the seven
gallon carboy (with five gallons of wort) in the 2" thick styrofoam
shipping container it came in. The wort rose to 71F by low kraeusen 36
hrs. after pitching, at at high kraeusen was still the same, and as it
began to slow, it was 75F! I should have taken the top off the
container, but this happened overnight. I removed the carboy and it is
now 64F.
BTW, bubbling ceased as soon as the temperature began to drop - not
because fermentation stopped from temperature shock to the yeast, as
might be thought (and worried about), but because at lower temperatures,
the (now) beer can hold more CO2, and so rather than bubbling out, it
stays in solution. As soon as the CO2 in solution reaches saturation at
the new, cooler temperature, the bubbling will resume, IF there is still
sugar to ferment and the temperature isn't too low for the yeast.
So the advice is to monitor the wort temperature and insulate if
necessary. There are commercially available carboy jackets, or you
could use a coat or a sleeping bag. There is also a product called the
Brewbelt or something like that which is an electric heating strap that
wraps around the carboy. You could even put the carboy on a heating
pad. But monitor the temperature!
- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner@umich.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:22:49 -0500
From: genitom@nyslgti.gen.ny.us (Michael Genito)
Subject: Grain Mill Survey
To the collective:
I am considering the purchase of a grain mill, and would like some info from
those who currently use a grain mill. Please let me know what grain mill you
have (make and model), how long you've been using it, what you like about it
and what you feel would be an improvement to it, as well as what it cost.
To reduce bandwidth on the HBD, pls respond by private e-mail. I'll post the
results in a couple of weeks to the HBD. Thanks.
Michael A. Genito, Director of Finance, Town of Ramapo
237 Route 59, Suffern, NY 10901
TEL: 914-357-5100 x214 FAX: 914-357-7209
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:05:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed@icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: / Mashout
Alejandro Midence writes:
> >
> > Why do some brewers use a single protein rest, and others use 2 or
> > even 3 rests?
> There is only one protein rest at about 40 degrees celsius or 122 degrees
> Farenheit which is conducted. The reason for a protein rest is so that
> adequate nutrients can be provided for the yeast to carry fermentation
> out to it's completeness.
Creating yeast nutrients, i.e. amino acids is certainly one reason a brewer
would perform a protein rest; however, I feel the more important reasons one
would perform a protein rest are 1) to cleave high molecular weight proteins to
form soluble medium weight *head forming* proteins and 2) to break down the
protein-glucan matrix that binds much of the starch in the malted barley
kernel in order to increase extraction efficiency.
BTW, 40C=104F, 50C=122F :-)
<snip>
> > What is accomplished in the "mashing out" step?
>
>
> You deactivate the enzymes at this stage.
I feel this may be important for commercial breweries, but for home brewers,
mashing out increases the solubility of wort sugar in the runoff and in
many instances increases yield. In my home brewery, I have experimental
results that show significant increases in yield when a mashout is employed
in a single-infusion mash. I believe this to be a result of increased
solubility of wort sugars in the runoff and/or increased conversion due to
the short high intensity alpha-amylase rest at 165F (enzymes aren't denatured
instantly, it does take several minutes).
Cheers,
Rob Reed
------------------------------
Date: 14 Dec 1995 07:31:21 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Twas a While Before Christmas
Hi Folks,
Many of you will remember this from last year.
Twas a few weeks before Christmas and all around the house, not an airlock was
bubbling, in spite of myself. My Vienna was lagering in the refrigerator out
there, with hopes that a truly fine beer, I soon could share.
The Airstat was useless, 32F couldn't be set, so I turned the Fridge to Low, to
see what I would get. On Monday it was 40, On Tuesday lower yet, On Wednesday
morning I tweaked it, seemed like a good bet.
Later that day when I walked out to the shed, my nose gave me pause, I was
filled with dread. In through the door I hurried and dashed, when I tripped on
the stoop and fell with a crash. Everything looked ordinary, well what do you
know, but just in case, I opened the fridge slow.
When what to my wondering eyes should appear, My carboy had FROZE, I had made
Ice beer! My first thought was tragic, I was worried a bit, I sat there and
pondered, then muttered, "Aw Sh**!"
More rapid than eagles, my curses they came, and I gestured and shouted and
called the fridge bad names. "You Basturd! How could you! You are surely to
blame! You're worthless, You're scrap metal, not worth the electric bills I'm
paying! To the end of the driveway, with one little call, They will haul you
away, haul away, haul away all!"
Unlike dry leaves that before the hurricane fly, when brewers meet with an
obstacle, they'll give it another try. So back to the house, wondering what to
do, five gallons of frozen beer, a frozen airlock too. And then in a
twinkling, I felt like a doof, the carboy wasn't broken, the beer would
probably pull through.
I returned to the shed, after hurrying around gathering cleaning supplies,
towels, whatever could be found. I changed my clothes, having come home from
work, if I were to stain them, my wife would go berzerk. I was loaded with
paper towels, I knew just what to do, I had Iodophor-ed water and a heating pad
too.
The carboy, how it twinkled! I knew to be wary, the bottom wasn't frozen but
the ice on top was scary! That bastard refridge, it had laid me low, trying to
kill my beer under a layer of snow. I cleaned off the top and washed off the
sides, picked up a block of ice and threw it outside. I couldn't find the
airlock, it was under a shelf, and I laughed when I saw it, in spite of myself.
The work of a half hour out there in the shed, soon gave me to know, I had
nothing to dread. The heating pad was working, the ice fell back in, I
re-sanitized the airlock, I knew where it had been. Not an Eisbock, but a
Vienna I chose, it was the end of the crisis of the lager that froze.
I sprang to my feet, to my wife gave a whistle, and we went off to bed under
the down comforter to wrestle. But the fridge heard me exclaim as I walked out
of sight, "Try that again, you bastard, and you'll be recycled all right!"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:38:41 -0500
From: dharsh@alpha.che.uc.edu (Dr. David C. Harsh)
Subject: Where's the CO2 during bottle conditioning?
Greetings to the collective: Here's my $0.02
I personally never believed that all the sugar was rapidly
fermented to begin with the way Miller describes it. My logic was that as
CO2 was produced in the liquid phase, some dissolved and some went into the
head space. A small bubble (smaller than a yeast cell) would have plenty
of time to reach equilibrium with the surrounding fluid by the time it made
it to the surface. So, pressure (and carbonation) start to increase almost
immediately and the yeast cells, like anything else used to living at
atmospheric pressure, start growing a little slower. So you end up with a
cyclic effect: yeast grow, pressure increases, yeast grow a little slower,
pressure increases a little more, yeast grow a little more....etc. This
continues until finally all of the sugar is consumed and/or the yeast
decide that they are quitting because of the pressure or alcohol or
whatever. I assume that CO2, as a metabolic byproduct, is also somewhat
harmful to yeast cells.
I know that some bacteria slow down at high pressure and figured
the same would be true for yeasts (these bacteria are the ones that grow in
hot springs and oxidize sulfur for food, so I know I'm pushing it to make
any sort of comparison).
I've never seen any data about yeast metabolism and pressure (good
project for someone out there!). I do think that what I described
accurately represents the way a bottled beer gradually becomes conditioned
over time.
So, does this make sense to anyone else?
Dave
******************************************************************
* Dave Harsh *
* Newsletter Editor for the Bloatarian Brewing League *
******************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:44:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch@eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Protein rests & trub
Alejandro wrote:
<There is only one protein rest at about 40 degrees celsius or 122 degrees
Farenheit which is conducted.
Careful about saying *only*. 122F is merely one choice, resting at 130
or 115F can also be a protein rest. Or in my wit mash, I rest at
118F, 122F, 126F.....
Al writes:
<I was just reading about this last night and read both DeClerck and
<Malting and Brewing Science, so I'm not sure which said which, but
<the bottom line was that there appeared to be no correlation between
<break removal and stability. Another factor was clarity and I believe
<that there was less chill haze in the beer made with trub-free wort.
I think this is specifically *cold* trub removal, no? I was talking
about open fermenting on top of a kettle of hot trub, yuck.
Good brewing,
Jim Busch
Colesville, Md
busch@mews.gsfc.nasa.gov
A Victory For Your Taste!
Victory Brewing Co, Downingtown, Pa.
Ur-Maerzen, Lager and IPA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:00:11 -0700
From: gmccarthy@dayna.com (Gary McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Exploding Bottles
John:
In HBD 1909, you wrote:
>IPA with O.G. of 1051 and F.G. of 1019<snip>
>If a bottle was going to explode, how long would it take to do so?
At least 2 weeks.
Here is what I got out of the thread: the fermentable(key word) sugars are
eaten up in 2 days, and the solution (the beer) is saturated with CO2(IMO not
yet carbonated). This excess CO2 seeks to escape to the lower pressure
headspace. Over a week or 4, the headspace fills to certain pressure then
CO2 is pushed back into the solution, carbonating it. If there were too many
fermentable sugars, CO2 keeps crowding into the headspace with no where to go
except to build up pressure until the bottle breaks or the cap flies off (yeah
like that ever happens).
You will know if your bottles are close to exploding if you look at or feel
the cap. The cap will go from being concave(bowing in) to convex(bowing
out)(if I have them straight). What I do is just to bleed off the excess CO2
by gentling lifting the cap, but not enough to remove the cap. You can then
just squeeze the cap with your hand, or use the capper with the same cap.
But IMO you, John, have nothing to worry about with your FG. The only worry
is how much priming sugar you used.
Gary McCarthy Two hawks wheel in a dazzling sky,
gmccarthy@dayna.com slow motion jet makes them look like a lie.
Bruce Cockburn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:29:15 +0000
From: William Shelton <William.Shelton.0206973@nt.com>
Subject: Boiling Hops
I am planning a brew session soon where I will attempt a very light =
colored barley wine. While I think I have assembled the right =
ingredients for an extract + specialty grain batch, I am concerned that =
my equipment may do me in.
Anytime I do wort boils for longer than 45 minutes, I get some =
carmelization. I assume it is because I do partial boils (I have an =
electric stove and a 16 quart brew pot). I am concerned that a 45 minute =
high gravity boil won't result in enough bitterness.
The obvious solution is more hops, but then I have problems straining out =
all of the hops. I have contemplated boiling my bittering hops in just =
water for 15 or 20 minutes before adding the extract for the remaining 45 =
minute boil. It seems like this would result in higher extraction =
efficiency.
I would appreciate any comments or suggestions from the collective.
Bill Shelton
NORTEL Federal Systems
McLean, VA
william_shelton@nt.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:06:07 EST
From: dipalma@sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Re: Protein rest during decoctions
Hi All,
In HBD#1909, Bob Tortajada asks:
>After the mash I tested the SG before adding the extract. Does the SG
>show sugars only or will soluble starches affect the SG as well.
Anything that's dissolved in the liquid will affect the SG. The hydrometer
can't distinguish between sugars and say, soluble protein.
>One final question. Will unconverted starches affect the beer??
Most definitely. Starches that remain unconverted after the mash can cause
a haze in the finished product. My first couple of partial mash attempts had
this problem, and I frequently encounter starch hazes in beers brewed by
beginning all-grainers. It's not just an aesthetic problem - the beer will
taste, well, starchy, and they don't seem to keep especially well either.
****************************************************************
Also in HBD#1909, Todd W. Roat asks:
>Hey science guys...... Someone told me that the fermenting beer in a carboy
>is several degrees warmer than the air outside the carboy because the
>chemical reactions taking place within the carboy during fermentation
>generate heat/energy. In a 60 degree house during Winter, could one put
>some faith in this "theory" and assume the fermenting ale to be at 65
>degrees?
Not sure I qualify as a "science guy", but I can assure you fermentation is
exothermic. Ambient temperature in my basement is ~58F-60F this time of year.
I can ferment pale ales at 65F-67F by simply wrapping the carboys tightly in
an old blanket. I use two thermometers, one on the bench beside the carboy,
the other inside the blanket. The one inside the blanket consistently reads
7F-9F above the other, YMMV.
*****************************************************************
Lot's o' good stuff on decoction mashing. Bob Hall writes:
>I decoct my mashes for all dark lagers; the malt character in the beer is worth
>the effort. However, what is the effect of, what seems to me, to be an overlong
>protein rest on the wort? After pulling the decoction 10 min into the 50 C
>protein rest, it is at least 1 h (I do long boils) before the decoction is put
>back to the main mash to raise the temp to starch rest. I suspect that with the
>undermodified malts that Noonan spoke about in his book, that this was not a
>problem. I use Ireks malts - are these modified enough so that a 70 min protein
>rest is going to chop up too many proteins?
A few years back, Ireks pilsner malt was far less modified than it is today.
There has been a trend in the malting industry toward higher degrees of malt
modification in recent years, it may be that a true undermodified malt is no
longer available. The Ireks I get now is only slightly less modified than
some British pale malts.
I had the same concern as Bob states, that the main mash spending over an
hour at protein rest temperature would result in a beer with thinnish body and
poor head retention. I modified my decoction mashing schedule to mash-in at
105F, and pull the first decoction at that point. While the decoction is
boiling, I gently heat the mash tun, raising the mash from 105F to 120F-125F.
The main mash spends most of the hour at 105F and only a few minutes at
protein rest temp.
I've done 2 lagers this way, a bock and an Octoberfest, which are still
lagering. Since I haven't tried the beers yet, I don't know what effects my
revised schedule may have had. I've read that the classic triple decoction
mash starts with a 30 minute acid rest anyway, so I don't anticipate any
problems. Comments?
Cheers,
Jim dipalma@sky.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:21:55 -0500
From: saunderm@vt.edu (Matthew Saunders)
Subject: Re: Sake Style rice wine
>Does anyone out there know anything about making sake (rice wine)? In Japan
>it's made by beer manufacturers like Kirin. I understand the process is
>>similar.
I recieved this recipie from a pal in New Zealand.
sake....
550g sugar, 250g white rice (unwashed), 200g raisins, 5g dried yeast, 0.5 cups
warm sweetened water
add sugar, rice and raisins to 2.25L water and stir. mix yeast gently into
warm water and leave to froth; add yeast to main mixture and mix well.
for first 4 days, stir 3-4 times each day, then leave for 2-3 weeks or until
fermentation has stopped. ferment between 15-20C (i'm not critical here).
leave standing for a week or so to settle, then strain.
allow to stand for as long as necessary to clarify before bottling.
Cheers!
Matthew
==================================================
"Burn it, son, burn it. Fire is a great refiner."
J. Matthew Saunders
saunderm@vt.edu
==================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:17:57 -0500
From: gi572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul D. Wiatroski)
Subject: Stuck Bock
Here's a question for the collective. I have a Bock beer with
an apparent stuck fermentation. It has been in the primary
for about 17 days and the s.g. is only down to 1.040. I think
the problem was insufficient oxygenation. I want to rack the
beer to a new carboy and pitch more yeast. Question, should
I try to re-oxygenate the beer? I'm thinking that since there
are a lot of fermentables remaining, the new yeast will use up
the added oxygen, thus preventing oxygenation of the
finished beer. Does this make sense?
Here are the specifics for the Bock:
- starting gravity: 1.070
- yeast: Wyeast #2124 (2 qt. starter)
- fermentation temp: 50 degrees F.
- mash schedule: 30 min. at 124 degrees F.
30 min. at 148 degrees F.
45 min. at 153 degrees F.
10 min. at 158 degrees F.
Thanks in advance.
.
Paul Wiatroski "Down at the Lido they welcome
you...with sausage and beer."
- Steely Dan
.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 14:16:51 EST
From: "John McCafferty" <johnm@giant.IntraNet.com>
Subject: Kolsch pronunciation and formulation.
Any linquists out there? How about anyone from Germany? I'm wondering
about the pronunication of the beer style known as kolsch. (the "o" has
two dots over it, but I cannot reproduced that here easily). What is the
correct pronunciation of the word? What are the two dots called and what
sound does an "o" have when it has them? Is the "sch" pronounced like a
"k" as in key? Is the "s" silent"? Does the "s" even belong in there?
Now a brewing question. What do the German Kolsch producers use as a
base malt? Pilsener, pale malt? I'm thinking of a blend of pils and
belgian pale ale malts with a little wheat. Should I also blend in some
english pale malt? Should I include anything else? A little vienna?
Caravienna? Carapils? Any of you all grain kolsch brewers out there have
a favorite all-grain recipe they would care to share? E-mail is fine.
Happy Holidays to all!
John McCafferty
johnm@intranet.com
Chelmsford, MA
Primary Fermenter
Merrimack Valley Brewers
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:26:04 +0000
From: "bill (w.r.) crick" <crick@bnr.ca>
Subject: Re: Oak Chips in IPA
Eric Hale asked about oak chips in an IPA. This advice is
based on oaking wine, not beer but should be a reasonable
place to start.
Use about 1/2 -1 oz. added to the secondary. Red wine uses 1-2 oz.
You may want to pour some boiling water over them first to sanitize.
They will provide flavor.
If they act like beech chips, they may provide some clarifying effect.
When using barrels for oak aging wine, new oak will give a fairly
astringent tannin flavor, while an older barrel will give smoother
more vainilla buttery flavors. You may want to soak you chips in
a quart of some type of beer for a week or two, or simmer them in water
for an hour if you want the vanilla flavor rather than the sharp
tannin. <- This is conjecture. I've not tried this yet.
I suspect that a real IPA used new barrels that
were not reused due to the cost of shipping them half way round the
globe, so new chips are probably appropriate.
Cheers
Bill Crick
Brwius, Ergo Sum!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 15:38:13 PST
From: Rob Emenecker <robe@cadmus.com>
Subject: Flushing and drying a CFWC
To cool my wort I use a home built counterflow wort chiller. After about a
1-1/2 month brewing hiatus I decided to make up for lost time and do two
evening extract brewing sessions back to back. When I resurrected by chiller
it had a stagnant, somewhat musty odor. The odor was caused by water that was
laying in the tubing from the last time I cleaned it. Although I was
successful at cleaning out the chiller and getting rid of the smell, I want to
avoid this happening again. I am looking for any suggestions from the group on
drying out the chiller after cleaning it. So far, the only idea I have is
rigging up a heat gun with tubing reductions (probably PVC) to go from the gun
nozzle down to the garden hose diameter and also to a 3/8 tube diameter. My
only concern is that I may overload the heat gun (possibly burning it out or
just burning myself).
TIA for any constructive suggestions. And, no! Do not suggest switching to an
immersion chiller. I spent 2 weeks and over 2 dozen visits to Hechinger, Home
Depot, ACE Hardware, ServiStar, ad nauseum, gathering parts to build my
chiller. What the hell, anytime a homebrewer can spend twice as much cash on
building a gadget versus buying it, it is definitely worth keeping, lest they
want to bring on the wrath of their SO ;)
============================================================================
Rob Emenecker (remenecker@cadmus.com)
Cadmus Journal Services, Inc., Linthicum, Maryland 21090
410-691-6454 (voice) / 410-684-2793 (fax)
Date: 12/14/95 Time: 15:38:13
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are only two things in life that are ever certain... taxes and BEER!"
============================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:38:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Kyle R Roberson <roberson@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
Subject: Quality is...
A small addition to the "quality is ..." discussion.
Dr. Deming, of teaching Japan to crush us in the market
fame, says that "Quality is pride of workmanship". This is
the definition that I like since "quality" doesn't have
anything to do with the price, the durability or any other
physical attribute because it all depends on the use.
I think this definition fits homebrewers very well.
Kyle
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1911, 12/16/95
*************************************
-------
