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HOMEBREW Digest #1788
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1995/07/22 PDT
HOMEBREW Digest #1788 Sat 22 July 1995
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Refrigerating hops, grains, etc. ad infinitum. (Kenneth K Goodrow)
Need advice for O2 Aeration System (Bryan Dawe)
Soon to be Brewer seeks equipment (rik)
Mash problems, the saga continues ("Rick Gontarek, Ph.D." )
Counterpressure Bottling (nm1)
WWW IBU Calculator (Glenn Tinseth)
Spoiled batch / Lalvin Champagne Yeast (Rich Larsen)
Beer in Space (Russell Mast)
Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #1786 (July 20, 1995) (RobHaiber)
Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #1786 (July 20, 1995) (RobHaiber)
RE: Wheat and Wyeast 3944 ("Spencer W. Thomas")
Virginia Beach/Outer Banks request ("Kevin A. Kutskill")
Final Gravity / Motorized JSP mill / Yeast Starters (Rob Reed)
Chicago Mills (Martin Schwan)
RE: Moldy Beer ("Merchant, Thomas E")
several items (Rolland Everitt)
Clarification: Beer In Space (Mark Parshall)
Munich 2 (A. J. deLange)
London City Redux (A. J. deLange)
Different Subjects (A. J. deLange)
Complete drivel... (pbabcock)
water/kegging/water again/grains (Ray Robert)
Zymurgy back issues (Wallie Meisner USCGC2R3)
Acidifying sparge water (Saint Rich)
HBD in r.c.b. may disappear (Dion Hollenbeck)
New to the list.. (David Russell)
New to list. (David Russell)
Guinness Irish Draught clone: Hops? Water treatment? (Walter K. Vogel)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 11:24:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kenneth K Goodrow <goodrow@orion.etsu.edu>
Subject: Refrigerating hops, grains, etc. ad infinitum.
I use dry yeast and am wondering how necessary it is to
refrigerate it to extend its life and protect vitality. The stuff is in
airtight packages, some of them coming with the cans of malt extract. I
have put the bags in the fridge in the past, but am wondering if it is
worth the bother. What does your experience prove?
The same question for hops, but this concerns hop pellets vacuum
sealed in little bags. These hop bags came in "personal brewery" boxes
(dry and liquid malt extract, sugar, hops, caps all in one box) and aren't
refrigerated. Anyone used these before? To refrigerate or not is the
question.
Gracias,
Kenn Goodrow
Brewing Addict
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 10:39:16 MDT
From: Bryan Dawe <bryand@hpgrla.gr.hp.com>
Subject: Need advice for O2 Aeration System
Hi all,
I need a primer on O2, O2 tanks, O2 regulators, air stones (or inlet
filters, as the case may be), etc.
I recently expanded my brew length to 10 gallons. I never minded shaking
the one carboy for aeration when there was only one carboy with which
to dance, but now that there are two, the shaking routine is tiresome.
I would like to start aerating with O2, but I am basically clueless with
respect to this topic. Seems like I should be able to go into a welders
supply shop and buy the necessary equipment and also have the tank filled.
Alternatively a home medical supply shop might also get the job done. In
any event, it would be nice if I had at least one clue before I go out
shopping. So . . .
What size tanks are available/generally used with O2? What size tank
should I buy? (It would be nice if I could aerate at least 100 gallons
between refills.) What kind of experiences have the O2 experts had
with different brands/styles of regulators? Any recommendations? Are
there any "pitfalls" that I should avoid in this endevour?
I expect to deliver the O2 to the beer through 1/16" ID tubing of some kind.
Any recommendations or advice with respect to this tubing? (Such as fittings
to use at the regulator, hose material and supplier recommendations, etc.)
Also, I am planning to use a 5 or 10 micron inlet filter as an airstone
in my aeration system. Previous postings on this forum indicate that these
are available from RAININ (1-800-4RAININ). I will give these people a
call at some point, but I do not have a catalog. If there is someone
in the HBD Collective with a current catalog that can make a recommendation
and provide a catalog number and price I would be quite appreciative.
I would like the filter to be stainless steel, autoclavable, have a 1/16"
OD stem for a slip fit connection (Actually, the only reason I mention the
the stem size is because it is my understanding that inlet filters are
usually equipped thusly. Corrections welcome. A different stem size
naturally effects my delivery tubing size, which I mentioned above.), and be
able to fit through the mouth of a 6.5 gallon acid carboy. Recommendations
on 5 micron vs. 10 micron would be helpful. Recommendations on other
suppliers of inlet filters would also be helpful.
Any and all advice on these topics welcome. I prefer that responses appear
in HBD, since effective August 1 I will be changing jobs and email
addresses. At some point email to my current address is going to
disappear into some electronic void. I do not want to miss any advice
from the HBD Collective.
Thanks in advance,
Bryan P. Dawe
bryand@hpgriy.gr.hp.com (only until July 31!)
Greeley Hard Copy Division (soon to be Graphics Hardware Lab, YEA!!!)
Hewlett-Packard Company
------------------------------
Date: Thu Jul 20 13:13:13 1995
From: rik@astea.com
Subject: Soon to be Brewer seeks equipment
Being a part of this mailing list, I'm almost embarrassed to admit that
I've yet to brew a batch of beer. Problem is, everytime I go to the
local brew store, all of the equipment seems somewhat shoddy for the
price. Don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid to spend the money, I'd just
rather know I'm getting quality equipment for what I'm spending. I'm a
beer lover (North Coast Brewing Co. & Oregon Brewing Co. are my favorite
breweries), and I know that once I start brewing I will continue for
quite a while. Is there some sort of reputable mail order catalog out
there? Where do you people buy good equipment?
I plan on getting into this relatively soon. I'm hoping to make a batch
of simple beer, and then intend to make a batch of some sort of spice
beer for the Holidays. Any recommendations for a fool-proof Holiday Beer
recipe?
Thanks,
Anxious in Allentown
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 11:16:01 -0600
From: "Rick Gontarek, Ph.D." <gontarek@fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Mash problems, the saga continues
Hello folks. Again, I ask for your help with my all-grain routine. I
have been an all-grainer for about a year and a half, with about 15 batches
under my belt.I usually mash on the stovetop (if I do step-mashes) or in my
10 gallon Gott cooler fitted with a Phils Phalse bottom (for infusion mashes).
I suffer from low extraction efficiencies (there...I admitted it).
My grain is purchased from several very reputable suppliers, and it is crushed
with a PhillMill. My sparges generally last at least 45 minutes. Everything
I can think of has been checked.
I recently moved to a new town, and I attempted my first all-grain batch
there two weeks ago. Starting with 9 lbs of Pale malt (plus a bit of
cara-pils and crystal) and a 1.5 hr infusion mash at 69degC, I wound up
with an extremely dissapointing o.g. of 1.030 in 5 gallons! I checked the
pH of the mash with those pH color strips, and it seemed to be around 5.5.
After I cleaned my carboy with a little too much bleach, I found a white
residue on the inside of the fermenter that only came off with vinegar.
Thus, I became suspect of my water.
I called the water department here (Frederick, MD). They gave me the
following information:
pH 7.8
alkalinity 109 mg/l
hardness 131 mg/l
I have read Miller and Papazian regarding water, but I am still confused.
It appears to my untrained senses that my water is on the hard side and
the pH is kinda high. I am not sure what to do about it.
In a futile attempt to do a controlled experiment on my mash regime, I
crushed *very* finely (almost to flour) 1 pound of 2-row malt. I mashed
it in 3 pints of 69degC water for 30 minutes. With those pH strips, I
measured the pH to be near 5.5 (although you know how those can be somewhat
ambiguous). I rinsed the grains with 5 pints of hot water, brought the volume
to 1 gallon, and measured the o.g at 1.024. Taking the actual o.g./max
predicted gravity for American 2 row malt, I get (24/37)100=64.8%
efficiency.
I next did the exact same thing on my regularly-crushed malt. The o.g. was
1.012, which comes out to be 32.4% efficiency!
What am I doing wrong? I thought that this experiment would give me hints,
but now I am even more discouraged. The gravity of my final runnings from
a normal all-grain batch is about 1.008 or so, so it seems that I am
getting all of the sugar out. I checked my hydrometer, and it reads
1.000 in water.
I am sorry for the long post, but I am very frustrated and really need
advice. I love to do all-grainers, and while I feel my beer is excellent,
my low extractions make for somewhat frustrating brew sessions. What other
variables can I look into? My crush, water, sparge, pH, temperature control,
etc, have all been investigated and I still can't find the culprit.
If there is a local all-grainer among you out there (in the Frederick area),
I would love to talk with you on the phone or even maybe come see you mash.
If anybody has any advice, or if you have been in my shoes, I would love to
hear from you.
TIA for all the help, past and present.
Rick Gontarek
Owner/Brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
Frederick, MD
gontarek@fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:47:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: nm1@keene.edu
Subject: Counterpressure Bottling
We recently acquired a kegging system and are now interested in a
counterpressure bottling system. I know that there are a few commercial
ones out there, How are they? Also I've heard about plans in the Sping
1990 zymurgy. Does anyone have a copy that you could photocopy?
Please E-mail me or post with any information you have.
TIA
Nathan
nm1@keene.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 11:43:06 -0700
From: gtinseth@teleport.com (Glenn Tinseth)
Subject: WWW IBU Calculator
The form-based bitterness calculator on my Hop Page is finally working
(well most of the time ;^). If you've visited the Hop Page, come again and
try out the calculator. If you haven't visited yet, shame on you--it's the
place to read about hops.
The URL is <http://www.teleport.com/~gtinseth/>
Thanks,
Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:48:12 -0500
From: rlarsen@squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: Spoiled batch / Lalvin Champagne Yeast
>It remains
>orangish and cloudy. It has a heavy taste that is a little bitter to
>the smell and taste. You would not want to drink the stuff, it is
>that bad.
Sounds like a wild yeast got in there. What are your procedures for
starting the yeast and chilling the wort. A long lag time, either waiting
for the yeast to kick off or waiting for the wort to chill can allow wild
things to gain a foothold in the beer. Is the flavor/stink like burning
electronics, plastic, chalky/tempra paint : aka Phenolic. These are
trademarks of wild yeast.
> I hate pouring beer down the drain.
Me too, but take consolation in the fact that if you can't drink it, you
probably shouldn't be calling it beer ;-)
On the same note to the HBD, does anyone else find the Lalvin Champagne
Yeast gives a similar nasty flavor to Mead. I lost one batch of Mead to a
funky flavor that I thought was an infection until I started some of this
same yeast in some honey for a kicker for a current batch of mead. One
whiff and it brought back some nasty memories. Needless to say, the starter
was dumped down the drain.
=> Rich <rlarsen@squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL. Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
Spice is the varity of life.
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:45:18 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast@fnbc.com>
Subject: Beer in Space
Mark Parshall blatently rips off a cool article about Beer in Space.
Har har. That was funny the FIRST time I read it a couple months ago, when
the ORIGINAL AUTHOR was correctly attributed.
That was stolen word for word from a column in the Fresno Bee written by
my good pal John Scalzi. He also happens to e-mail copies of his column around
the country, and I got a copy so long ago I have already erased it to save
space. Yes, it was funny. Maybe good enough to be pertinent to the group.
But stealing someone else's work and putting your name on it is NOT COOL.
It's not necessarily even legal. I'm sure John will appreciate the publicity,
and any of you that find this marvellously funny call your local newspapers
and ask them to call the Fresno Bee and syndicate John's weekly column.
Don't ask them to contact Mark Parshall, though, because he can't come up with
a good one on his own.
Maybe it's not Mark's fault, necessarily. Maybe he got it fourth-hand, with
the headers trimmed. Nonetheless, he sure as hell didn't write it himself,
and to post it with no attribution, not even a "here's something funny someone
forwarded me" is just obnoxious. Mark, you owe John an apology (or more,
I'll let him deal with you), you owe us an apology for trying to decieve us
into thinking you have enough creativity to write that, and, mostly, you owe
yourself an apology. You're ony cheating yourself, as your third-grade
teacher used to say.
Sorry if I'm coming across as nitpicky, but this was totally ripped-off, and
good enough to deserve a correct attribution. If you had written this would
you be a little upset if someone swiped it from you? (Especially if that's
what you did for a living...)
Very rude, and technically illegal. Fye upon you, Markus.
-Russell, with two L's
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:23:15 -0700
From: RobHaiber@eworld.com
Subject: Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #1786 (July 20, 1995)
In reply to TRoat@aol.com
his Q on a ale recipe using Challenger hops
There is a book, Brew Your Own Real Ale at Home, that has scores of recipes
using Challenger and other British hops. The book contains ACTUAL brewery
recipes, and not gereric ones. The book retails for $14.99 (S&H included with
pre-paid orders) and may be purchased from:
The Info Devel Press
Reilly Road
La Grangevill
NY 12450
Here's a recipe for Fullers London Pride:
In the mash tun
Pale malt: 2.750gm (65%)
Crystal malt: 430gm (10%)
Flaked maize: 430gm (10%)
In the copper
Invert cane sugar: 640gm (15%)
Target hops: 20gm (start of boil)
CHallenger hops: 20gm (start of boil)
Northdown hops: 9gm (last 15min)
Irish moss: 1tsp (last 15-30min)
Typical characteristics
Brewing method: single infusion mash, top fermented
Mash liquor: 10.0 litres
Masnh temp: 65 C
Mash time: 90min
Boil time: 2hr
Alcohol content: 4.6%
OG: 1040
Final gravity: 1006
Bitterness: 30EBU
Final volume: 23 litres
Roger Protz's description: "An astonishing complex beer for its gavity, fine
for drinking on its own, or with well-flavoured food. A multi-layered delight
of malt and hops, and a deep, intense finish, with hop and ripening fruit
notes.
Note: for a partial mash recipe, replace the pale malt with 2,000gm of
diastatic malt extract such as Edme DMS.
I hope this helps.
Rob Haiber, Beer & Brewing Central sysop/admin
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:37:48 -0700
From: RobHaiber@eworld.com
Subject: Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #1786 (July 20, 1995)
In response to Ray Daniels's query
- ----------------------------- Begin Original Text
- -----------------------------
Five or six folks from the Chicago Beer Society are headed to this year's
GBBF
in London. (Aug 1 - 5.)
Anyone else going?
Anyone have sites, pubs, breweries, etc. to recommend for our agenda?
Also, if you have any recommendations regarding accomodations, please contact
me.
Thanks,
Ray Daniels
71261.705@compuserve.com
- ----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------
Yes, there are quite a few of us who will be there in London before, during,
and after GBBF.
Paul Farnsworth, John Calen, Susan Reigler, and myself will be there.
As for places to go... starting Saturday, 29th July, the White Horse pub in
Parsons Green, London, will have their annual real ale festivals. I was told
there will be a special <<wink, wink>> IPA brewed especially for the event.
Too, the White Horse is the unofficial HQ of beer scribes when in London.
There will be a beer scribes get-together on the Monday evening before GBBF.
Finally, on Sunday, the 30th, John Calen & I will be going to Chiddingstone
in Kent to visit the Larkin Brewery and have as many pints as I can drink in
the Castle pub there (it naturally has Larkins Ales on offer). Chiddingstone
is a lovely National Trust village. It is the sight of my annual pilgrimage
to England. Anyone wanting to go, let me know.
Cheers,
Rob Haiber, Beer & Brewing Central
PS I'll be working the Bateman stand at GBBF on Wednesday, Friday and
Saturday. Remember, Friday will be the LONG day at GBBF, not Saturday, when
it will close at 8.00pm.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 15:43:48 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer@mendel.hgp.med.umich.edu>
Subject: RE: Wheat and Wyeast 3944
I have made a Wit beer with whole wheat flour. I had a slow sparge,
but it didn't stick. I use a Gott cooler with a copper manifold for
mashing & lautering.
=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer@umich.edu)
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jul 95 16:23:02 EDT
From: "Kevin A. Kutskill" <75233.500@compuserve.com>
Subject: Virginia Beach/Outer Banks request
(insert picture of me being flogged with a siphon hose) Ok, ok, I won't
do it again! Just this once!
I am going to the Virginia Beach/Outer Banks area next week and want
to know if there are any good beer-related stops I need to make (i.e.,
brewpubs, micros, etc.)
Private e-mail preferred.
TIA
Kevin A. Kutskill ("Dr. Rottguts")
Clinton Township, MI
"A homebrew a day keeps the doctor happy"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 15:35:06 -0400 (CDT)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed@icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Final Gravity / Motorized JSP mill / Yeast Starters
Steven W. Schultz <swschult@cbda9.apgea.army.mil> writes:
> In a recent edition of Zymurgy, someone tested this recipe and
> had, if I remember correctly, an FG of 1.012. My only deviations from the
> recipe were adding 4 oz. of wheat malt (my standard addition to every
> recipe, for head retention), a pound of crystal malt, and about one-half
> pound of cara-pils.
Crystal malt and carapils should both increase unfermentables; therefore,
your FG will be higher. But an FG of 1.024 sounds high, perhaps there are
other effects such as unattenuative yeast at work.
> P.J. O'Rourke was right...
Yep.
_________________________________
Jeffrey B. Bonner <t3345@fel1.nfuel.com> asked about motorizing the
JSP Maltmill:
I don't know what the optimum speed is. I motorized my Maltmill with
a 1/3 HP motor and a roller RPM of 170. This gives me a good crush
and good throughput. My only regret is that I only get to use it for
several minutes per month. It seems like someone - it may have been
Jack - did some experiments where throughput was measured vs. roller
RPM and the throughput increased with roller RPM until the roller
reached about ??? RPM. I don't remember.
_________________________________
PERSAND@aol.com writes about wort aeration:
I syphon my chilled wort from a height of
> about three feet above my 6 gallon plastic fermentor. I get a huge crop of
> foam which I stir in throughout the syphoning. I pitch my yeast starter
> about half way into the process and usually have about a 10 to 12 hour lag
> time @80f starting temp. I'll admit that occasionally the lag time is about
> 24 hours but in general is reasonable. Any comments on this method?
I have been using a method to grow yeast starters which someone described on
HBD several months ago: sterilize your carboy or other primary fermentor and
grow your final starter in your fermentor. I have had excellent results with
this technique and it saves one task on brewday. I add cooled wort to
the fermentor and airlock activity typically starts within hours using a
1.0-1.5 qt. starter. While I don't have any hard data, my fermentations
proceed more quickly with a shorter lag time. In theory more yeast should be
produced due to the increased amount of O2 available for yeast reproduction.
I am not a microbiologist, but I do believe growing starters in this way is a
vast improvement over growing starters in flasks, jars, or bottles.
Cheers,
Rob Reed
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 15:46:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Martin Schwan <schwmar@charlie.acc.iit.edu>
Subject: Chicago Mills
I'm an occasional all-grain brewer. In the past my all-grain brews have
been British Pale Ales since I can easily get pre-crushed British Pale
Malt. I'd like to branch out and try other all-grain brews but, I don't
own a roller mill because my infrequent grain brewing doesn't warrent the
initial exense.
It occured to me that there might be some home brewers here in Chicago that
own mills that aren't being used that often and who wouldn't mind sharing
once in awhile. I can trade some homebrew for mill time or, if anyone is
interested, I have some experience with electric motors and can attach one to
a mill in exchange for use of the mill.
Any interested Chicago based mill owners please reply by private e-mail to:
schwmar@charlie.acc.iit.edu
TIA :-) Martin.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 16:35:00 CDT
From: "Merchant, Thomas E" <temercha@hsv23.pcmail.ingr.com>
Subject: RE: Moldy Beer
Todd posted about his moldy beer situation in HBD 1786:
> ...the beer smelled GREAT!
> Even tasted like beer. Final proof to come in 2 weeks at tasting. Who
said
> a little mold was a bad thing (smile).
How about a name for this stuff? Todd's Camembert Beer? Biere de Brie?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 18:37:04 -0400
From: af509@osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: several items
First, let me thank the several HBD members who responded pri-
vately to my inquiry about winemaking lists. I was hoping to
post a collection of useful information, but all I found out was
that there are a number of winemakers among the brewers, and
none knows of a winemaking list. Oh well...thanks anyway guys!
Next, I do not have access to ftp from this account, and have
tried to use ftpmail. I cannot seem to get a message through to
ftpmail@gatekeeper.dec.com -- am I the only one?
Finally, I am looking for on-line or mail-order sources of
brewing supplies. Is there a FAQ file or compiled list of known
sources lurking anywhere?
Thanx in advance,
Rolland Everitt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 18:00:58 -0700
From: markus@pyramid.com (Mark Parshall)
Subject: Clarification: Beer In Space
In HBD# 1786 I posted an article entitled "Beer In Space". This article
was forwared to me by a friend without any kind of identification on it.
I posted this to the HBD without stating that this was being forwarded
and that the author was unknown. I appologize for any confusion this
may have caused.
I have received a very polite and friendly email message from the
original author of this work who supplied me the appropriate
information:
'Beer in Space' was originally written by John Scalzi for the
Fresno Bee newspaper in California. It was published on June
6th of this year.
If you enjoyed the column, visit John's Web site where he has
others as well:
"http"//www.cybergate.com:80/~scalzi"
Regards,
Mark Parshall
- --
-m------- Mark Parshall
---mmm----- Pyramid Technology Corporation
-----mmmmm--- markus@pyramid.com or {decwrl,hplabs,sun,uunet}!pyramid!markus
- -------mmmmmmm- VOICE: 408/428-8462 FAX: 408/428-8210
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 21:40:06 -0500
From: ajdel@interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Munich 2
Munich 2
This is the fifteenth in a series of posts on the formulation
of waters similar to those of famous brewing cities of the world. They
are based on ion concentration profiles given by Dave Draper in
his post in #1704 (10 April 95). See my post "Water Series" (#1763) for
explanatory material (correction: in the Line 3 explanation read 1.8 ml of
1 N sulfuric acid, not 18 ml). Quick reminders: all ion concentrations and
salt quantities are in ppm which is the same as mg/l. The water to
which the salts are added is assumed to be ION FREE (i.e. it is
DISTILLED WATER or REVERSE OSMOSIS WATER).
This profile is attributable to M.M. Moll writing in Hardwick, Ed. "Handbook
of Brewing". Moll does not specify sodium so we threw in 2 ppm based on the
Munich 1 profile and the conviction that Munich water contains some sodium.
The profile is better balanced than the Munich 1 profile and this is
because of the very much higher sulfate and chloride. The sulfate level is
high enough that we think that brewers may run into hops harshness in some
circumstances. We must again assert that we are describing how to approximate
the water as specified only and specifically not giving advice on how to use it
for a particular brewing job. If you follow a recipe for a city that has
problem water you will produce problem water and have to deal with it as such.
I suppose the major justification for this series is that if you start with
Munich water and treat it as Munich brewers do then you have achieved an
extra degree of authenticity. It is probably much more practical to simply
put together a water with a reasonable level of calcium, minimal alkalinity
and sulfate and chloride as required to establish hop character and mouth
feel.
This said we can synthesize the Munich 2 profile with simple salts but
external acid is required to get the pH to 7:
Formulation I
n: 970000 Temp: 0.000969 Energy (rms %): 1.369795
Munich 2 Desired Cations: 7.253 Anions: 4.959 mEq/L Ratio: 0.684
ION WT DESIRED REALIZED ERR, % SALTS AMOUNT
Ca 1.00 109.000 109.761 0.70 NaCl 0.000
Mg 1.00 21.000 20.492 -2.42 Na2CO3.10H2O 0.000
Na 1.00 2.000 2.000 -0.02 CaCL2 0.000
K 1.00 0.000 0.000 0.00 CaSO4.2H2O 0.000
CO3 1.00 171.000 169.617 -0.81 CaCO3 274.102
SO4 1.00 79.000 80.957 2.48 MgCL2 0.000
Cl 1.00 36.000 35.977 -0.06 MgCO3 0.000
H 1.00 3.284 1.015 -69.10 KCl 0.000
Na2SO4 0.000
MgSO4.7H2O 207.702
H2SO4 0.000
NaHCO3 7.307
HCl 37.012
Carbonic: 0.5465 Bicarbonate: 2.2780 Carbonate: 0.001090 mM
Total Required Hydronium: 3.2839 Sulfuric Hydronium: 0.0000 mEq
Hydrochloric Hydronium: 1.0149 mEq
2.2691 mEq additional hydronium required to maintain pH 7.00
Solubility Products - CaCO3: 8.70E-09 MgCO3: 2.60E-05
Ion Products - CaCO3: 2.99E-09 MgCO3: 9.19E-10
Alkalinity: 2.25 mEq; 112.54 ppm as CaCO3.
Temporary hardness: 5.65 mEq; 282.55 ppm as CaCO3
Permanent hardness: 1.51 mEq; 75.56 ppm as CaCO3
The amount of acid is modest enough that adequate mash pH can probably
be acheived if it is skipped, at least with the darker styles. Carbonic
acid could also be used with a doubling of the carbonate to 340 ppm (pH 7).
See following post: London City Redux
A.J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel@interramp.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 21:40:11 -0500
From: ajdel@interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: London City Redux
In #1786 Al Korzonas (I think I spelled it right this time, Al) commented
that the carbonate level specified for London City water by Westerman and
Huige was unrealistically low. We definitely agree with this.
Our reasoning is based on adding up all the negative charges and positive
charges in the specification for pH 7 and comparing. They should be equal.
In the case of the London City spec the positive charges are triple the
negative and thus either the water as specified cannot exist or we are not
interpreting the spec numbers properly. The disturbing thing is that many
of the water specifications are badly unbalanced. Edinburgh 1, London City,
and London Well have anion to cation ratios of less than .35. Munich 1 has
a ratio of .425. Only Dortmund 2, Dublin 1, Dublin 2, Dusseldorf, Edinburgh 3
and Koln have ratios between 0.8 and 1.2.These latter cities can be
synthesized with little or no external acid which supplies another
anion to makes up for the shortfall in the formulations for badly balanced
cities.
Now Al asks what gives here. I do not know. I cannot synthesize London
City water per the Westerman and Huige spec. To get close I must allow
the carbonate to rise to over twice the spec value and use external acid,
which if it is carbonic acid, will raise the carbonate further to over
4 times the spec level. The possibilities seem to be:
1. The Westerman and Huige numbers are wrong or were transcribed wrong.
2. We have interpreted 82 to mean the total of carbonic, bicarbonate
and carbonate as ppm. It may mean something else (for example
if this were bicarbonate expressed "as calcium carbonate" the bicarbonate
would be 98 ppm and the total carbonic plus bicarbonate about 118 ppm)
3. There are other unreported anions such as nitrate/nitrite and silicate.
4. We have missed something essential (this is the one that causes us to
awake in the middle of the night).
In several cases we have added a specification for a city to the original list.
Munich 2 of the companion post is an example. We have done this in the hope of
finding a consistent (i.e. well balanced) spec which we could synthesize in
cases where the spec in the original source was so inconsistent as to be
difficult to emulate. In summary, we think that many of these profiles must
be taken with a grain of salt (sorry, I had to). I suspect that many of
them may be quite old and that they may have been copied from journal to
textbook to article over the years without ever being questioned.
A.J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel@interramp.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:11:08 -0500
From: ajdel@interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Different Subjects
Randy Davis asked about yield from raw wheat: I've never gotten spectacular
yields from raw wheat either i.e typically about 59% (weight of extract as
a % of the weight of the grain)in a 45% wheat, 45% barley malt, 10% oat
flakes mash. By contrast I ususally get 69-70% for all barley malt mashes.
Using 60% for the wit mash and 70% for the barley mash it looks as if the
wheat by itself would yield about 50%. To get extraction this "good" with
the wheat I grind it as I would barley malt but with the rollers a little
closer together. It then goes into the mash pot with the barley and oats. I
do a double decoction mash per Eric Warner's recommendations for wheat beer
(if you think decoction mashing is going too far read up on the way
authentic wit beers are made). The sparge usually presents some problem
requiring cutting down but the end result is one of my favorites.
There's been some discussion of using welding oxygen for aeration. I do
this as a matter of course and while I've never really looked for it don't
remeber seeing "USP" stickers on the bottles used at either of the local
micro's around here. Perhaps those who worry will take some comfort in
knowing that pure oxygen is quite toxic to most living things (including
people) so that what gets bubbled through your wort should be sterile. Or
was the worry that we'd have radon in our beer?
Cheers, AJ
A.J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel@interramp.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:11:46 EDT
From: pbabcock@e-mail.com
Subject: Complete drivel...
in HBD 1787, Aidan "Kicked in his conspiracies" Heerdegen
<aidan@rschp2.anu.edu.au> speaks of many things: of isinglass and gelatine and
a rack-off joke that stings (Stinks didn't rhyme well enough)...
Au contraire, mon ami! Gelatin seems to work acceptably above 10C (50F for the
conversionally impaired). I regularly use it at temperatures ranging from 50F
through 75F (24C) with acceptable results.
Now, is it only me, or have others noticed a continued tendency for the little
yeastie beasties to clump (yeast of a feather flocc together?) after being
fined with gelatin in the secondary? I find that, in my gelatin fined batches,
I can pour from the bottle - literally up-ending it (collective gasp from the
audience) - without experiencing the goop transference phenomena (technical
term). Indeed, unless I really shake that puppy (another technical term) prior
to popping the top (that one's not technical), the sediment WANTS to stay at
the bottom of the bottle. The same yeast when NOT fined with gelatin is more
gregarious and wants to see what the bottom of the glass is like.
I can't speak to the 'once only' aspect of gelatine as my batches rarely last
long enough to be transported any further than from the beer fridge to the
glass. I'll have to try that one out. Hmmm. Sharing. Interesting concept...
"Drink all you want! I'll brew more!"
Pat Babcock
************* SIG EATEN BY AI ROBOT ***************** MMMMM! YUMMY! *********
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 09:29:00 PDT
From: Ray Robert <rayr@bah.com>
Subject: water/kegging/water again/grains
Greetings all!
Just wanted to post a few things to the Brew Collective.
1. I wanted to publicly thank A. DeLange for all of his effort on the
brewing water of all the great brewing cities of the world. (I don't
understand half of the technical water stuff, but I do recognize he has put
in a great effort to provide us with this valuable resource.)
2. I HAVE KEGGED and I SHALL BOTTLE NO MORE. Finally got my keg setup
going and I am like a kid in a candy shop. I highly recommend taking the
plunge. I probably spent around $150 total for all the stuff, minus fridge.
BTW, I do not use a fridge, I use a custom designed water jacket,
insulated trashcan thingamajig. ********CHEEP BEER GADGET *******. Real
quickly, it is a trashcan in a trashcan with the dead space in between
insulated with Styrofoam and foam in a can. It has a 5" long 1/2"diameter
drain with a 1/2"cap. Silicone sealed to prevent leakage from between the
cans at the drain. Insulated the lid with the Styrofoam also. Works great.
Its portable, does not require power, and looks acceptable on my apartment
balcony. (Somehow I don't think the building mgmt would like a fridge on
the porch). I just throw the keg in, strap it down, add water and ice, and
voila cold beer. I add additional ice packs every day to keep it cold).
3. Question: Because I keep my keg in a water jacket, what can I add to
the water to prevent bacteria, without harming the keg. I use bleach in my
water jacket for my carboy and I know this won't work for the keg.
4. Question II: Should I be more concerned about moisture or temperature
for my stored grains. As an extract brewer an apartment dweller, space is
at a premium, and the grains I use are used up that quickly. I was thinking
of storing my extra grains in a pressurized corny keg. ( I don't employ all
of my kegs at the same time). Opinions, experiences, am I a nut?
TIA
Robert Ray
rayr@bah.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:55:54 EDT
From: uscgc2r3@ibmmail.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Wallie Meisner USCGC2R3@ibmmail.com
Subject: Zymurgy back issues
I've just started reading "Zymurgy" (two issues) and am finding it to be a
terrific resource. I tend to keep technical magazines forever and re-read them
occasionally, but I know that some people accumulate things to a critical mass
and then get rid of them. I would love to get hold of any back issues of Zymurgy
(without paying a lot for them). Does anyone out there have a stack of back
issues that they would consider selling? They'll be going to a good home. If so,
let me know what you've got and how much you want for them. Thanks.
910 632 2410 tel
800 334 9481 tel
910 632 2697 fax
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:43:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: edmondso@athena.msfc.nasa.gov (Saint Rich)
Subject: Acidifying sparge water
Had a crazy thought last night about acidifying sparge water. Much
has been said about adding roasted specialty grains at mash out rather
than during the whole mash. What if the specialty grains were steeped
in the sparge water instead? Would that give you the benefit of a
lower pH in the sparge water with equivalent contribution of the
roasted grain character to the final product?
And while I'm at it, I'm in the process of making a lauter tun from a
33qt EOS pot and 1/2" od cu tubing. I was planning to just coil the
tubing to cover the bottom of the pot, but was unable to make the
radius small enough to cover the center of the pot. No biggie. But
that made me wonder if I really needed to have the coils as tight as I
had them in the bottom of the pot. I had coiled them to where they
were touching the adjacent loop - i.e. you could only see copper
tubing in the bottom of the pot. Should they be that tight, or more
loose? Suggestions on drill bit size selection are also welcome.
- --
St. Rich "All the boys are gettin' ready to riot
Betty Lou's gettin' out tonight" - Bob Seger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 07:20:50 PDT
From: hollen@megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: HBD in r.c.b. may disappear
The posting of the Homebrew Digest into rec.crafts.brewing may stop
without notice sometime in the near future.
I am the person responsible for the posting at this time. It is a
completely automated process here at the company for which I work.
Today I am tendering my resignation and once I am gone, no one will
notice if the automated process breaks and if anyone does, they will
expend *NO* effort to fix it. I have been able to get this done
through the good graces of our computer resources department as a
personal favor to me and once I am gone, no will care about any
homebrewing concerns.
The good news is that as long as this site continues to receive the
HBD, it will continue to gate it into the news stream unless something
gets broken. The other good news is that at my new job, we will have
ample resources for me to be able to do this, but it may take some
time to get it set up. I will then regain some measure of control in
keeping the HBD flowing into r.c.b.
Until then, please don't complain to Megatek if anything happens to
the HBD being posted into r.c.b.
I may be "off the air" for a couple of weeks if my company deems that
my new position is a threat by going to a company in too much of the
same field and therefore competition. I can be reached at my new
address of "hollen@vigra.com" but will not be able to respond until
after my start date of August 7, 1995
dion
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814 Email: hollen@megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 11:07:11 EDT
From: drussell@funb.com (David Russell)
Subject: New to the list..
Hi,
I am new to this list ( as of today ) and I was wondering if anyone out there
knows of any local stores to Charlotte or mail order systems for home brewing.
I have recently relocated here from NYC and haven't been able to locate any
down here. Moonshine is not my thing. I also would like to hear of anyways of
doctoring ales to give different tastes. One of my favorite Wicked Petes is the
Winterbrew ( touch of raspberry ) and Summerbrew ( touch of citris ). Any ideas
would be greatly appreciated.
Happy consumption,
Dave
- --
******************************************************************************
David Russell
Market Data Analyst
First Union National Bank
One First Union Plaza
Charlotte, NC
phone:(704) 383-9922 (temp)
email: drussell@capmark.funb.com
******************************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 11:44:55 EDT
From: drussell@funb.com (David Russell)
Subject: New to list.
Hi,
I tried posting before but I may not have been entirely permissioned yet. I am
new to this list and would like some information on two questions. One, I just
moved here (Charlotte, NC) from NYC and would like some information on where I
can get some homebrewing kits. I have not been able to locate any store yet, so
any local stores or mail order places would be greatly appreciated. Second, I
would like to know if anyone has any recipes or ideas for doctoring their home
brew. I really enjoy Petes Wicked Winterbrew and Summerbrew (raspberry and
citris, respectively) and would like to know how to brew like this.
Any ideas would help. Either post for everybody to enjoy or mail me directly at
drussell@capmark.funb.com.
Thanks and happy comsuming,
Dave
- --
******************************************************************************
David Russell
Market Data Analyst
First Union National Bank
One First Union Plaza
Charlotte, NC
phone:(704) 383-9922 (temp)
email: drussell@capmark.funb.com
******************************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:56:22 -0700
From: Walter K. Vogel <vogelw@ucs.orst.edu>
Subject: Guinness Irish Draught clone: Hops? Water treatment?
I shall be brewing a Guinness clone, or rather I will attempt a Guinness clone
The variation will be the Irish Draught as served in Ireland (not England).
Grain:
4.6 lb Crisp English Maris Otter pale malt
0.75 lb Crisp Roasted Barley
1.75 lb Flaked Barley
[ I have been thinking of adding some Belgian Special B -- Yes/NO?]
I expect that this will yield an OG 1047 in 5 Gal and I will dilute this
OG 1039 to ferment after 2-3h boil. I will be using Wyeast Irish Ale yeast.
Fermentation temperature will be on the warm side 24C/75F maybe less.
**Hops ?** According to Michael Jackson "Americal and English hops are used"
and that "Goldings predominate"
According to the _Just Hops_ catalouge Irish Northdown is used extensively
by Guinness but it doesn't say in which beer they use it in or if they use
it at the brewery in England in Ireland or both. I am also considering the
use of Willamette hops for the American hop (an easy choice as I live in the
Willamette valley). Another possibility is English Challenger hops.
My question is that while I will be using English Goldings I am not sure what
else to use, or IF I need to use anything else--I could go with 100% Goldings
**Water Treatment** According to Randy Mosher's book the water analysis of
Dublin 5.0 ppm SO4 which is lowest listed even Pilsen has more SO4 in there
water. He also has an "Ideal Stout" with 46ppm SO4. So does any one know
if Guinness treats their water in any way and if so what that treatment might
be. Also does anyone know the pH of the water and what it might be adjusted
to.
In review, my questions are: 1. include Special B (Y/N)? 2. Hops other than
EK Goldings? 3. Water treatment? & pH?
Thanks
Walter Vogel
vogelw@bcc.orst.edu
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1788, 07/22/95
*************************************
-------
