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HOMEBREW Digest #1754
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1995/06/10 PDT
HOMEBREW Digest #1754 Sat 10 June 1995
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
CO2 Gas Bags/Sight Glasses (Kirk R Fleming)
Ice Beer (Phil Hitchman)
mercury FAQ? (mitch)
Widgets ( Brian Wilson)
a real old thread ("Lee A. Menegoni")
Diacetyl rests (Rich Larsen)
The ideal gas law... (PHIL=MEYERS)
Subject: Mini-Keg Survey Results (PHIL=MEYERS)
Bombs Away! (kpnadai)
UK vs US Crystal Malts (Glen_Baldridge)
Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #1745 (May 31, 1995) (LimaWiskey)
Thermodynamics Digest (RWaterfall)
Brews to Style (Ken Schroeder)
Ice, ice, baby. (Russell Mast)
What temp to ferment Wheinstephen WY 3068? (Brian Pickerill)
Re: nitrosamines (Jeff Frane)
Thermodynamics Digest (Larry Bristol )
Re: ice beer (Dennis Davison)
Scottish Ale (barber eric stephen)
ice beer? (Robin Hanson)
Pet Peeves, Con't. (Don Rudolph)
Starters & Ageing (Beersgood)
Scrubbing air (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Oregon/Washington/Idaho--Regional Competition (Glenn Tinseth)
Help with Silica Gel (Jim R. Fortes)
Re: Belgian yeasts (Steve Zabarnick)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 23:35:05 -0600
From: flemingk@usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: CO2 Gas Bags/Sight Glasses
#1751 We Just Won't Let the CO2 Thread Die. Larry says:
- --------------------------------------------------------
> - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at 850psi/75F and another at
> 500psi/45F and we put a line between them. Will gas flow from one to
> the other? No - they are at equilibrium.
The argument here is: two closed systems, each at equilibrium, when
connected form a new single closed system which will be at equilibrium.
No way. The two systems are EACH at equilibrium, but not wrt one another.
There's a 350psi differential and I suggest yes, flow will happen--it
doesn't matter *how* the differential got there, be it from a temperature
difference or not. It's still there. A transverse membrane in the pipe
would feel the same differential regardless of the temperatures on either
side of it (he wildly speculates, with an air of pretentious authority).
> How come CO2 at 17psi/75F does not "flow" to the keg where the CO2 is
> only at 10psi/45F? Because these are equivalent pressures.
I say there *is* flow between them, and if your empirical results indicate
otherwise, I say there MUST be a one-way valve in the system somewhere
between the low-pressure guages used to measure each pressure. I still
see no way to maintain a pressure gradient in a short line between two
tanks no matter what you do to the temperature of the tanks. [However, you
*can* keep the keg connected to the regulator with the keg at a higher
pressure than the regulator setting...it's not an open system internally
but contains a back-flow preventer (so I'm told).]
Getting back to beer:
> In order to achieve the desired amount of carbonation, if your CO2 is
> at 45F you want one pressure, and if it is at 75F, you want another.
In both cases the pressure AND temperature of the gas *at the surface of
the beer* are identical over time, given the regulator gauge is accurate at
both temperatures. If the beer temperature is identical in both cases,
you have two identical, steady-state systems from the perspective of the
CO2-beer interface.
Neither my thermo nor gas dynamics texts contain anything remotely useful
(or any mention of "equivalent pressures") so until I get my keg gauge
in and do some experiments, I'll concede any further argument (but will
of course continue to look for some way to get in the last word).
#1751 Keith Royster asks about sight glass materials:
- ----------------------------------------------------_
> I read about placing a metal tube over the plastic tube...I like this
> idea, but wonder if the metal tubing will be enough of a heat barrier
> ...to protect 'normal' hardware type plastic tubing
The tubing I used to build the sight glass you refer to is the white
polyethylene stuff sold at hardware stores for icemaker feed line.
This tubing softens markedly at kettle temps, but yes, the aluminum
sleeve serves to maintain the tubing shape and shields it from kettle
radiation. The liquid in the tube is out away from the kettle and
free to conduct heat away on all sides, and is small in mass. This helps
keep the sight glass liquid temp well below the stuff in the kettle.
Two suggestions based on several boils conducted with this sight glass:
1) small diameter tubing such as mine (3/8" OD) tends to trap bubbles
during the boil and the bubbles are annoying and must be watched-for to
ensure accurate readings, and
2) The polyethylene tubing is somewhat opaque--it's easy to read when
boiling that 10W40 crankcase lube you call a "stout", but a bit
challenging when doing a light ale...then there's the following:
3) "Polyethylene is noted for stress cracking when used in conjuction
with many types of barbed fittings. To eliminate the potential of
stress cracking, it is recommended that only push-to-connect or
compression type fittings are used." NewAge Industries catalog.
My glass was built for about $8 on short notice...I'll replace it
someday with either a real sight glass (see the McMaster-Carr catalog)
or one built using crystal clear PVC (or Teflon) tubing sold for that
purpose. A place called NewAge Industries in PA (215-657-3151) sells
both of these: one product called "Clear 40" is a sched 40 PVC described
as "highly corrosion resistant as well as transparent...used in
chemical, pharmaceutical and food plants as well as laboratories and
hospitals". Sold in 10ft lengths only, but they'll cut it to ship it.
Said to be formulated to FDA standards for food contact. In 1/4", 3/8",
1/2", 3/4" and larger IDs up to 6". Hardness of 81 on the Shore D.
The clear Teflon tube is just outrageous for heavy weight stuff (for
example a 5/8" ID 3/4" OD tube is 10.40 per foot, 25 ft minimum--you'd
need Spencer to order in bulk on this one, AND pick up the tab :-).
No interest in NewAge nor have I ordered from them.
KRF Colorado Springs
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 9:21:17 BST
From: phitchma@mpc-uk.com (Phil Hitchman)
Subject: Ice Beer
Steve brown writes:
> I don't know if any one has notice the prevalance of 'ice' beers in
> the local bars.
Yes, worrying isn't it !
> i have tried to make an 'ice' beer, with not much success.
Why ?
> from what i understand ice beer is made by frezeing the brew after
> fermentaion. the way i have followed was:
>
> place the fermention, after brewing in the bucket, in a frezzer,
> and the water turns in to ice. pass the wort? through a sive, thus
> removing the ice nee water. bottle / barrel the remains. this should
> give a stronger result.
>
> the only problem is the result that it is strong but it tasts crap.
Sounds like you got it right Steve ! Sorry, this wasn't meant to be a
flame but that stuff really is vile so why bother ? I would have thought
there were easier ways of getting the effect you're after (ie. more sugar
in the wort or adding a bottle of Vodka to the beer before bottling !).
You may be right about the method of manufacture but the whole thing is
really just a hype. ICE is really just a cool word to use in advertising
and is aimed straight at the 20 to 30 age bracket.
By the way, did you know that the ice that gets strained off that stuff
is bottled and sold as Bud ? :-)
Phil Hitchman.
hitchmap@hoskyns.co.uk
phitchma@mpc-uk.com \\/\//
OO ||
/_ .)
"Three pints of Monkey Wrench and a bottle of /|\ /\
Bud with a straw please" \_/ \
PS. I'm sitting here in my asbestos suit so flame away...I don't care !
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 12:59:48 +0100
From: mitch@molbio.su.se
Subject: mercury FAQ?
I'm a little out of touch, and I'd like to get information on the best
way to handle mercury - how long in the boil? how to best dry-mercury?
different grades, etc...., but I hate to waste the bandwidth. Is there
a mercury FAQ?
Mitch in Stockholm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:19:19 +0000
From: B.Wilson@strath.ac.uk ( Brian Wilson)
Subject: Widgets
Hi there,
I'm a newbie to this list so please excuse me if this topic has already
been mentioned in previous mailings.
An article has been flowing in the british media regarding faulty widgets
in cans of Tetley Bitter. Apparently due to a manufacturing error the
widgets in the bottom of the cans can actually come away from the bottom
and float to the top. It is then possible for the drinker to the swallow
said widget.
All of the ofending cans were recalled and we are told that this problem is
an isolated incident. I wonder if anyone else has come accross this
problem in drinking from cans with widgets in them.
For those not sure what a widget is, let me quickly explain it is a gadget
at the bottom of the can wich releases gases in to the beer to give that
freashly pulled taste and look.
Cheers For Now, and drink on,
.--~~,__
....,-------`~~'._.'
`-,,, ,_ ;'~U'
_,-' ,'`-__; '--.
(_/'~~ ''''(;
Brian Wilson
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 8:41:52 EDT
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni@nectech.com>
Subject: a real old thread
Nitrosamines were discussed on HBD years ago. The conclusion. Your more
likely to die from a car accident on your way to the supermarket. Then from
the nitrosamines in beer and grilled food eaten with mercury amalgen
fillings.
Lets get back to beer and brewing.
Lee Menegoni
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 08:37:31 -0500
From: rlarsen@squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: Diacetyl rests
Don Put responded to my post in private e-mail, but I thought it would be
some good info for the masses...
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Don Put <dput@cello.gina.calstate.edu>
>To: rlarsen@squeaky.free.org
>Subject: Diacetyl rests
>X-UIDL: 802551335.003
>
>
>Rich,
>
>I'm sure someone will respond to your post in the HBD, but I thought
>I'd send you some of the info I've dug up in my lagering research.
>
>>>Diacetyl is another chemical that will give you a butter/butterscotch
>>>flavor in beer; lagering at a low temp (<50F) will cause the yeast to
>>>reabsorb the diacetyl for food.
>
>>This is incorrect. The cool fermentation results in lower ester production
>>thus a less fruity, more crisp beer. The diacetyl is reabsorbed when the
>>temperature is raised up to around 60-70. This is sometimes refered to a
>>diacetyl rest. Some lager yeasts will require this rest otherwise you'll
>>wind up with a beer that would taste pretty darn good poured over popcorn.
>
>Actually, it isn't incorrect; it's just another more traditional method
>of lagering. With the emphasis on turnaround time in the industry today,
>many brewers use an accelerated lagering schedule with a higher temperature
>diacetyl rest such as you suggested.
>
>Here's an outline of a traditional lagering schedule:
>
>"For an authentic contential lager, ferment at 48-51F for 1 week, drop temp
>2F per day until it is 42F. Rest here 2-4 days (diacetyl rest), then
>drop 2F per day until you hit 31F. Hold 4-8 weeks depending on style.
>Either lager in kegs, and bung to create natural CO2, or krausen with
>fresh krausen (fermenting yeast & wort, at 7-15% of volume). Those who
>"bring up" the temp are preaching the American fast lager approach. This
>is where ferments are done quite warm (up to 60F) and lots of diacetyl is
>produced that requires reduction by the yeast. It has been demonstrated that
>bringing the temp up to 68-70F for 2 days or so will reduce the diacetyl
>to "normal" levels. Taste tests of experienced panels have shown a preference
>for the traditional techniques." (Sorry, but I can't find the reference.)
>
>>From Noonan:
>
>"It is relatively common in modern fermentation cycles to raise the
>temperature of the post-kraeusen beer to 52F, and to hold that temperature
>for two to seven days. This is a *diacetyl rest*. It encourages oxidation
>of yeast-excreted acetohydroxy acids to vicinal diketones, and it
>reinvigorates the yeast culture so that it metalbolizes diacetyl, thereby
>removing it from solution." _Brewing_Lager_Beer_, pg. 156.
>
>Also, on page 655 in volume 2 of _Malting_and_Brewing_Science_ there's a
>nice table that outlines European and American lagering schedules. So,
>although there is a trend towards shorter, higher temperature conditioning
>periods for lager beer, there is still more than one way to skin the
>proverbial cat.
>
>don (dput@cello.gina.calstate.edu)
=> Rich <rlarsen@squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL. Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
Spice is the varity of life.
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 9:14:11 CDT
From: PHIL=MEYERS%TS=DESKCASE%CS=HOU@bangate.compaq.com
Subject: The ideal gas law...
Larry Bristol writes:
>Play with this hypotechtical - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at
850psi/75F
>and another at 500psi/45F and we put a line between them. Will gas flow
>from one to the other? No - they are at equilibrium.
Ok folks, lets pull out our physics and/or chemistry books, dust it off and
look at the idea gas law.
PV=nRT
P= pressure
V=volume
n=moles of gas
R=universal gas constant
T=temp in Kelvin
You can, through a bit of math, get:
P(1)V(1)/n(1)T(1) = P(2)V(2)/n(2)/T(2)
Since it is a closed system, n(1)=n(2), V(1)=V(2) leaving you with
P(1)/V(1)=P(2)/V(2) therefore the system will be in equilibrium once all of
the CO2 that will dissolve into the beer at the temperature of the beer is
complete. If you don't believe me, do the math yourself. It works!
Larry is correct. Let the flames begin!
Phil
The following was included as an attachement. Please use UUDECODE
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`
end
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 9:22:58 CDT
From: PHIL=MEYERS%TS=DESKCASE%CS=HOU@bangate.compaq.com
Subject: Subject: Mini-Keg Survey Results
Harry Writes:
> I, for one, am leaning toward the Fass-Frisch metal tap based upon
>the answers I've received. Now to find the cheapest price!
Here's my two cents. My girlfriend got me one of the Fass-Frisch plastic
CO2 tapes for Christmas. All has been going well with it. It drips a
little (like a 1/2 tsp per day in the fridge). However, we went camping
over Easter weekend and I brought along 4 minikegs to astonish my friends
with my brewing prowess. Unfortunately, upon installing the first CO2
cylinder (a real Fass-Frisch on, not a no-namer), as soon as the cylinder
was punctured, the handle spilt in two and handle/cylnder was torn from my
hand and ended up about 100 yards downrange. Scared the piss out of me.
Fortunately, my neighborhood brewshop replaced the handle at no charge.
However, I am looking into having the neighborhood welding shop fashion me
a new handle out of metal tubing. Therefore, I recommend the system but go
for the metal.
Added bonus: in some areas (here in Texas) some of your major liquor
stores carry the minikegs full of beer for about US$12 (vs. US$8 for an
empty at the brewshop). My brewshop sells the replacement plugs for
US$0.95. Just cut the one out of the old keg and away you go.
Phil
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