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HOMEBREW Digest #1757
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1995/06/16 PDT
HOMEBREW Digest #1757 Fri 16 June 1995
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Hop utilization w/CF chiller & the HBD? (Jay Reeves)
Looking for a few good dry yeasts (Steven W. Schultz )
Sault Ste. Marie beer? (uswlsrap)
Beer Fun and Games (Larry Meyer)
Autoclaving Kegs (John W. Carpenter)
Malt Extract Dry vs. Liquid (Edwin Thompson)
Fermenter Fluid Flow Fenomenon--The Bowtie Effect ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 1of3 (Robert Brown)
Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 2 of 3 (Robert Brown)
Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 3 of 3 (Robert Brown)
Gap/Supply sources (Robert Brown)
3068 Foam (A. J. deLange)
beer guts (Rich Hill)
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Date: 15 Jun 95 09:35:50 EDT
From: Jay Reeves <73362.600@compuserve.com>
Subject: Hop utilization w/CF chiller & the HBD?
What happened to the HBD? Did the AI robot have a FIFO
brain fart? Everything from late Friday (6/9) to mid-morning
Wednesday (6/14) never went out... and HBD1756 was terribly
small. Maybe everyone unsubscribed. I posted Friday, never
received a confirmation and not an HBD until today.
Anyway, I repost my ignorance:
I switched from an immersion chiller to a counter-flow
chiller a few batches ago and have a question about hopping.
You probably know the story:With the immersion chiller, the total
volume of wort is chilled at once but with the counter-flow, it
takes about 30 minutes to chill the entire batch, thus, some of the
wort remains near boiling temps longer than the rest.
During this 30 minute time frame, it's obvious that the late hop
additions will actually add to the bitterness more than what's
calculated and your hop aroma/flavor will not be what you would
get using an immersion chiller.
I remember a few post awhile back about it but didn't really pick
anything useful out of it. Can some of you that use counter-flow
chillers tell me how you deal with calculating the hop additions to
get what you want in terms of correct bitterness levels, flavor
and aroma? I realise that you'd add flavoring/aroma hops latter,
but how much latter? Is there any correlation between say a 10
minute hop addition with an immersion chiller and a counter-flow
chiller?
-Jay Reeves
Huntsville, Alabama, USA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:06:02 EDT
From: Steven W. Schultz <swschult@cbda9.apgea.army.mil>
Subject: Looking for a few good dry yeasts
I totally agree that liquid yeasts are better than dry, but to
save money on my cheap summer brews (British ales, mostly), I'm willing to
go back to dry. My question is simple: which of today's dry yeasts on
the market have the best reputation for not being contaminated? Am I
right to believe that the problem of contamination in dry yeasts is much
less than it was a few years ago?
TIA. Public or private postings are okay.
Steve Schultz
Abingdon, Maryland
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:29:51 EDT
From: uswlsrap@ibmmail.com
Subject: Sault Ste. Marie beer?
*** Resending note of 06/11/95 13:26
Any breweries (other than Northern), brewpubs, or beer bars of note in
Sault Ste. Marie? (I'm speaking of Ontario, but if there's anything
in Michigan, let me know about them. Because of the narrowness of this
request, private email please. TIA!
Now go have a beer,
Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap@ibmmail.com
"People who drink light "beer" don't like the taste of beer;
they just like to pee a lot"
--quote stolen from Capital Brewery, Middleton (Madison), WI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:51:20 -0700
From: Meyer@msscc.med.utah.edu (Larry Meyer)
Subject: Beer Fun and Games
There was a request a while back for beer-theme games. For many years we've
had a beer hunt on Easter, but it could be done any time. Rather than find
them all at once, only one is allowed, brought back, chilled if desired,
then consumed while looking for the next. Depending on the weather, it's
often cool enough so no chilling is required. We usually hide soft drinks
for the kids, and several rounds of eggs/candy.
This tradition started at UC San Diego about 1970 (Dion, I don't think you
we're around then), with the beers usually hidden over an acre on the north
part of the campus, a eucalyptus forest. Unfortunatly, before my homebrew
days. Most commonly now, it uses 5 or 6 adjacent yards (front and back) in
Salt Lake City, basicly a neighborhood party. We hide them well, and its
routine to find beers from a year or more ago. Oh well.
Larry
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 11:25:03 EDT
From: jwc@med.unc.edu (John W. Carpenter)
Subject: Autoclaving Kegs
I'm finally getting ready to start kegging, and have a question for the
HBD wisdom. Can the 5 gal soda kegs be autoclaved? Will the O-rings hold
up to the heat? What about the rubber on the ends of the kegs? TIA
John Carpenter - jwc@med.unc.edu - Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:54:52 -0700
From: ad339@freenet.unbc.edu (Edwin Thompson)
Subject: Malt Extract Dry vs. Liquid
Thanks to all who replied to my query. The concencus seems to be that
since liquid ME is 20% water while dry is 2% they can be converted quite
accurately by multiplying or dividingy by 0.80.
sory Malt extract xtract = weight LME x 0.80
Liquid Malt Extr. = weight DME / 0.80
I was also warned that DME is not always appropriate for brewing since it
is often food grade while the LME for brewing is the actual beer grade.
Again thanks
Ed.
- --
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 12:29:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR@afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Fermenter Fluid Flow Fenomenon--The Bowtie Effect
Since #1756 was so small I've assumed msgs queued for the HBD last week were
purged. If I'm wrong and you see the following twice, I apologize.
I don't get out much, so the following phenonmenon observed in my open
stainless
fermenter was of extraordinary interest to me and I thought other beer geeks
may
have seen or can explain it.
First, in the past I've fermented in a 3.5 gal stoneware crock, and have
noticed
the gummygoo that floats on the foam usually coalesces at one side of the
kraeusen
surface. This appeared to be due to the fact that the mass of CO2 rising
from the
beer had established a flow in the container such that almost all the CO2
came up
at one side of the crock, driving the residue largely to the other side.
Okay, for the first time this past weekend I fermented in a 16 quart
stainless pot
which, unlike the crock, has an extremely flat bottom (it's a clad pot and
doesn't
flex at all) has a very uniform shape.
The fermenter was located on a level surface, and a uniform layer of white
foam was
soon established. At my 10 hour inspection, I was astonished to find the
gummygoo
had coalesced into two identical regions on the foam surface. Get this: the
two
regions were shaped like triangles and diametrically opposed--a bow-tie, if
you
will. Each gummygoo sector comprised about 20% of the surface area.
I rotated the fermenter 90 degrees, and inspected it a hour or two later to
find
that the two sectors that had previously NOT had any gummygoo on them now
did--the
entire surface had a uniform residue layer on it.
As is my custom, I skimmed off the residue leaving as much of the frothy
kraeusen as
possible. Several hours later, two more sectors of residue, each identical
in shape
(nearly perfect triangles) and diametrically opposed.
Okay okay. This morning I skimmed one last time (goo production had fallen
off
markedly and there was very little on the foam, and the foam layer was very
thin).
I racked to a Corny, and at the bottom of the fermenter I found...you
guessed it...
two identical diamterically opposed sectors of light *clean* yeast. The
remaining
area of the fermenter bottom was covered with a thinner layer of your more
nasty
looking trub/yeast sediment.
Anyone wanna bite on this one?
KRF
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:34:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Brown <rbrown00@uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 1of3
A while back (#1724 if memeory serves) I polled the collective about
grain mills. I was unable to thank everyone although there responses
were greatly appreciated. So THANKS guys it was a great help. Now I'm
going to try to do my part.
What I want to do is present my experiences regarding mills in hopes that
it will help out others. First a quick look at the hobby mills available
to us homebrewers. Keep in mind that I have not actually ever seen/used
these roller mills so my comments are based on what others have said
about them. Many thanks to Douglas O'brien (douglas.obrien@cers.emr.ca)
for a great many of these addresses. Oh, BTW I have in fact masterminded
my own mill :), but more about that later. Here I present my backup plan
if building my own was not to be.
Valley Brewing Equipment
1310 Surrey Ave.,
Ottawa, ON. Canada.
K1V 6S9
Tel: (613) 733-5241
Fax: (613) 731-6476
This local (same province) mill is relatively new and I have
received favourable reviews (2 total) against other mills. Adjustable, 2
roller design with good throughput and crush. $145 Can ($99 US) +shipping.
Jack Schmidling Enterprises
18016 Church Rd
Marengo Illinois 60152
Ph# 815-923-0031
fAX# 815-923-0032
Adjustable or fixed rollers, good throughput/grind. Concerns
about the unequal adjustment of the rollers. The most expensive but
viewed very favourably by most.
Glatt Manufacturing
P.O. Box 116
5 Port Way
Dayton, WA USA 99328
tel: 509-382-4356
Adjustable 2 roller mill. Considered a good mill. Concern about
the plastic gears but not a serious problem. Most mills have a follower
roller but this one drives both rollers.
Brewers Resource
409 Calle San Pablo #104
Camarillo, CA 93012
Ph# 1-800-827-3983
1-805-445-4100
A new 2 roller adjustable mill that I have not received
independent comments on. Brewtek claims comparable/favourable results
when compared to other rollers. $90 US+.
Listerman Manufacturing Company
1776 Mentor Ave.
Norwood, OH USA 45212
tel: 513-731-1130
Adjustable 1 roller/plate mill. Concern about the single roller
have been voiced. $75-$80 US+ makes it the least expensive roller.
Corona Mill
Columbia, South America
A very common (not a roller) and inexpensive ($40-$50 Can) mill
on the market. Quality and quantity of grind is a concern. I have
actually seen one of these, believe it or not.:)
No connection blah, blah, blah. If I had bought one it probably would
have been the valley roller mill. Cost, quality, US exchange, local
product, etc etc. check them out yourself.
END 1 of 3 To be continued....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:35:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Brown <rbrown00@uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 2 of 3
Other Roller mill designs:
Home roller mill makers have been known to happen. Some were nice enough
to feed my thirst for knowledge, here in short are there designs.
Terence Tegner(tegbrew@iaccess.za)
Yep, this is the guy from Africa. Terence engineered a 2 roller mill
that will handle 10kg/min. <WOW!> Obviously motor driven it has 2
unknurled 6" diam X 10" length rollers made of mild steel. It spins one
roller at 350rpm while using a different sized pulley (driven by the back
of the same round pulley belt) to give the second roller a slightly diferent
speed. This rolls/turns the grain as it is being crushed.
Andrew Keegan (akeegan@averroes.helios.nd.edu)
Forwarded me 2 roller designs but omitted his own as "experimental".
Either a great loss of ideas or a plot of some kind, I'm not sure which.:)
They are(in short):
Chris "Barny" Barnhart's (clbarnha@lettterkenn-emh1.army.mil)
Made a roller with 2" diamond knurled rollers. He feels that around the
4"-8" mark a smooth or only roughened roller is necessary. This seems
reasonable to me and of important design consideration.
Tom Clifton
Made a roller mill of hard maple that were 4" in diameter with axial
grooves to provide grip. He also noted a give in his bearings when
crushing and would consider simple brass bushings considering the
infrequency and low rpm's of use.
Will Self(wself@viking.emcmt.edu)
Forwarded me a design for a non-centered roller mill. This design used 4"
diam, 40 schedule PVC tubing held in place by furniture casters fastened
to the frame. A simple hand crank and cog(screw head + hole) system was
used to drive both rollers. Knurling was applied with a Knife and a
quality grind was the end product.
Wellington County Brewery(Guelph, Ont. Can)
Obviously not a homebrewer(Micro) but the only other mill I have Knowledge
of(and have actually seen). This agricultural mill is best described as
2 wagon wheels which run against each other. Good crush, Good beer the
final product tells me this design works.
BUILDING A MILL
There are numerous considerations but some very simple/basic ones. A mill
must draw grain (sufficiently fast/throughput) between 2 "plates" which
will crack the contents while leaving the husk as intact as possible.
Beyond these points you should not be constrained by the designs of
agricultural/commercial/hobby mills as available materials will be the
most limiting factor in producing a functional mill. Those with access
to a full blown fabricating shop should consider themselves lucky and in
the minority.
DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS
Wait to finalize your Plan until you have the rollers in hand. A
plan is easy to change but try and find the rollers to fit your plan!
ADJUSTMENT: In a proven production situation a fixed roller design is
possible but at home adjustment will be needed. Knowing the exact gap
needed (?very small) and being able to attain it along the length of a
fixed roller anywhere but at a precision shop is dubious. As well type,
seasonal, varietal, etc grain differences would best be handled by an
adjustable mill. A simple threaded rod/screw adjuster, attached to the
follower roller, would suffice in most cases.
FRAME: Frame/hopper design must be sturdy, reliable and functional.
They are essential but secondary to the "rollers" which are the "guts" of
the machine. The frame must hold the rollers solidly and incorporate an
adjusting mechanism. Such as a simple threaded rod/screw mechanism that
moves the roller shaft/bearing housing along a slot or channel of some sort.
ROLLER DESIGN: The materials mentioned above could all be
used however availability, hardness, durability, ease of fabrication, and
maintenance required (e.g. rusting) should all be considered.
The shape of the "roller" need not be an actual roller. Wheel shaped
"rollers" and a non-centered design could also be considered. In
addition larger diameter rollers(4"-6"?) do not need the same/any
texturing. The relatively flat crushing "profile" can draw the grain
without Knurling. This is important when looking for a roller if you
don't have access to the proper equipment for the texturing job.
Fabricating a roller will only work if you or someone you know has access
to the right tools and the skills to use them. Having a shop make a pair
of first run rollers is as or more expensive than buying a hobby mill.
You can look around for the "Homebrew loving fabricating shop owner" and
trade some brew for the work. But unless he's your buddy or
brother-in-law it's his business and livelihood($$$). A roller made by
hand will not do, it must be turned on a lathe (wood or metal) to insure
that it will be perfectly true.
END 1of3 To be continued...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:36:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Brown <rbrown00@uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 3 of 3
"3 of 3 finally, If it helps at this point you can refer to it as a mercury
filled coriander mill CO2 driven from inside the fridge :)"
Premade rolllers are available from conveyor belt companies and the like
but are still a specialty item when new ($$$). Used ones can be found at
scrap yards, old factories, used junk dealers etc. You will most often
find small diameter, thin walled, and rusted rollers that aren't
suitable. However if you look hard enough you might come across a drive
roller(s) from a conveyor belt, Printer rollers(toxic inks?), or the oat
rollers from an old agricultural mill. Look for textured or large
diameter rollers that will not need further modificatio and spin true.
A fixed shaft roller with bearings or bushings is simple to attach
a crank handle to. But if both your your rollers are the spin
around the shaft type a means of driving at least 1 is needed. I
suggest welding or bolting a cog/pulley around the shaft directly on
the end plate of the roller. You can then drive it with a chain or
pulley belt that runs in between the frame and roller, to either a
hand crank or motor. This allows the roller to still spin on
it's internal bearings smoothly and precisely.
Wheels, consider the "wheeler" mill. Large diameter (6"+)(No Knurling)and
smaller length (2.5"-3"+) may be more easily found either used(cheap) or
new($$$). Old agricultural or Industrial material handling equipment
(carts/fork trucks) have solid broad/flat faced tires. Caster centers
and farm supply shops etc will have suitable($$$) new ones. You can
remove the rubber/plastic coating (if any) and check that it has a
flat/true surface. These will probably be mild steel and will need to be
coated or regularly maintained to remove the rust.
A wheels cracking length is smaller, but the larger diameter will
make up the surface area difference with every revolution/turn of the
crank. Two shaped grain guards will hold the grain in place. A
much thinner frame with a standard adjusting mechanism, hopper
and crank handle should be relatively easy to fabricate once
you've found your "wheelers".
Non-centered design (similar to Will Self's) may also be a consideration.
The main requirement here is to maintain a constant gap for the grain to
be drawn through.
Tubing or solid stock with a constant diam could be held or jockeyed"
in place with casters/wheels held on a surrounding framework. One side
of the frame can be hinged for adjustment and a crank handle and
simple gearing system will drive the rollers.
Alternatively thin "C shaped buschings" could be cut to the diameter of
the tubing. The "C's" would face each other to create a suitable grinding
surface. One side would be adjustable(hinged or sliding) the other crank
driven with a gearing/o-ring system for drive transfer. The materials
used would have to be smooth to allow rotation without to much
resistance. I have a pair of 1" diam X 3" knurled barbell handles with
grooves appropriate for a "C bearing". This mini-roller was very close
to becoming a reality.
Tubing with a constant wall thickness (even oval or egg shaped profiles
would do) of suitably large diameter can be used. By inserting small
wheels or rollers in the tubing the grinding surface of the tube can be
held from the inside at the desired position. This would be essentially
an oddly centered roller that would require a somewhat trickier drive
mechanism.
The off-centered rollers are a round about way of construction no
doubt. But the materials (common tubing/wheels/casters/etc) are
inexpensive (even new) and found at any hardware/handyman store.
Will's design works (plans available) and I believe the other
off-center designs could work as well. It would just take some
work and ingenuity.
MY ROLLER MILL
After long searching and planning I found a conveyor belt with 2 suitable
rollers ($10, nice guys, good deal). The drive roller is 4" diameter
knurled aluminum with shaft and bearings in good condition. The follower
is a 2" diameter smooth SS roller with square bearing housings. They are
both 18" long but the knurled roller is very subtly tapered from the
center (like "<4" diam>" but only a few fractions from center to ends). This
gives me 1 of 2-8" useable "planes" as a grinding surface (the SS roller
is true).
I (with some invaluable help, Thanks Wayne) cut down the original frame
and remounted the Knurled roller thusly, [roller], the frame has a "squared C
profile". Pieces of angle iron were mounted midway in the frame to form
a 3-sided adjusting track along the upper edge of the "C" shaped frame. The
2 rollers now sit at the same height. I/we tapped a threaded rod into the
bearing housing, put plates on the adjustable/small roller end, and
bolts on the rods on eitherside of these plates. The mills small roller is
adjustable and can be slightly angled to be parallel with 1/2 of the
Knurled roller, creating an 8" grinding surface. A simple handle was
fashioned and the test grind worked:). Later I built a simple hopper out of
spare materials at home.
The mill works very well, good adjustable crush and fast throughput.
Approximetely 15 turns of the handle for 1 pound (15rev./lb). Even on a
lazy day a 5 gallon batch should take only 2-3 minutes of grinding at the
most. It's almost a shame, I spent so many hours searching and planning,
and I will probably only use it an hour or so every year. But then
making the toys is almost half the fun, it is a hobby after all the hours
spent are hours enjoyed.:)
Sorry about the bandwidth, atleast none of the dreaded never ending
threads were brought up.:) I just hope that more than a quick description
of my final design will generate more ideas. Ideally, I would like the
HBD collective to come up with the elusive "home roller" design. a
reliable mill that can be reasonably made at home.
Apologies for any innacuracies, vagueness, bad grammar, etc etc. Any
questions, comments, or rude remarks can be directed to me or posted, I will
reply in turn from my thermally protected lurking chamber.
Beers To You, Rob
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 19:00:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Brown <rbrown00@uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Gap/Supply sources
Was it just me or did anyone else notice the gap of published articles in
the latest digest. Sometime Friday through sometime Wednesday by my
count. You guessed it, even my onslaught of article(s) couldn't make it
through. BTW what is the maximum length that will be puplished, did I
need to break that one up?
My real question(s) is where are the best/preffered and hopefully
cheapest mail-order sources for: Yeast and Whole Hops. Also if I want
to get a propane burner, which one is the best. I'm hoping someone
has already done the leg work on this and has a file they can forward
me.
I will now end my attempt to dominate this digest mailing,
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:56:14 -0500
From: ajdel@interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: 3068 Foam
"Dulisse, Brian" <bbd4@CIPCOD1.EM.CDC.GOV> using Wyeast 2068 observed a
lull in fermentation and a change in the character of the foam upon
resumption:
I have never observed a lull with this strain. It just takes off and goes
like mad for a few days, then subsides and all is over. I've been working
it at about 64F. I do know what the creamy stuff is though. That is the
yeast which being an ale yeast flocculates to the top. Did the production
of CO2 increase after the lull or are you basing your observation of
renewed vigor on the appearance of the creamy foam alone?
A.J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel@interramp.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:26:20 -0700
From: rihill@ednet1.osl.or.gov (Rich Hill)
Subject: beer guts
Greetings,
A year or so ago there was an article I read somewhere that said there
was something about beer, besides the calories that produced the
famous "beer gut". Now that I'm building beers that are more filling
and my metabolism is slowing, the battle of the bulge is beginning in
earnes.
Does anyone know what I'm taking about? Is there something we can do
about it? Will it affect mouth feel?
btw my last batch was my first all grain, a stout, and its great!
thanks for all the infor from the brew digest.
Rich
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1757, 06/16/95
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