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HOMEBREW Digest #1750
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1995/06/06 PDT
HOMEBREW Digest #1750 Tue 06 June 1995
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: Mini keg priming (DCB2)
Conditioning Time Thread (John J. Palmer)
re 'creeping regulators' (Robert Lauriston/Patricia Bennett)
Re: barrel experiment (Nigel Townsend)
Coopers Yeast (Andy Walsh)
Fast ferment (Glenn E Matthies)
TRUB REMOVAL ("ED KENDALL 252-3436")
Pumpkin Dunkel Weizenbock Recipe (Sandy Cockerham__Mc625__6-0412)
Fwd: Water in NYC (DSWPHOTO)
Re: Tubing for steam (Mark A. Stevens)
Re: starters *are* important (Jeff Frane)
Free-style competitions (Wolfe)
mashing specialty malts (Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna)
Re: Belgian Pale Ale (was Celis Pale Bock) (spencer)
Weizen/Wyeast 3056 ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
Re: Yeast Starters (Ray Daniels)
Singing the Praise of Amylase! (harry)
Re: Styles in Compention (spencer)
Smoking Grain/Sanitary Kegs (Jeff Stampes)
San Francisco Brewpubs (Tim Lawson)
Diacetyl and lagering (Rich Larsen)
RE all-grain taking too much time (Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna)
Kegging help (Frank Caico)
Thanks/Siphoning Tips ("Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556")
Mercury beers? ("Robert Waddell")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 95 3:34:43 PDT
From: DCB2%OPS%DCPP@bangate.pge.com
Subject: re: Mini keg priming
David Wright writes:
>I am an extract brewer who has also experienced foaming when adding
>priming sugar prior to bottling. I have not been making a solution
>with the priming sugar but just adding it straight into my beer. The
>only foam I get is on the top of the beer in the bucket I use to
>bottle from. I don't get any foam in the bottles themselves. Is there
>a better way to do this? Also have been having a problem with over
I have never experienced this because I always add the sugar to boiling water
to ensure that it's sterile.
>priming lately (I have expanded three 5 ltr. mini kegs as of late).
>What is the correct amount of priming sugar for a 5 gal. batch or
>does it depend on the type of beer?
Yes but it depends more on the type of container you are "bottling" in. A
normal 5 gallon batch of bottles is primed with 3/4 cup Dextrose but for a
party pig or keg you would only use about 1/2 that much. Headspace is the key
here. In a keg you have a larger liquid volume/gas volume ratio than with
bottles. Because the liquid is NOT compressable (for all practical purposes)
if you prime with the same amount of sugar the gas gets crammed into a
proportionally smaller space creating the higher pressure.
To illistrate this, lets say you normaly bottle with 16 oz bottles and leave a
1 oz space at the top. That would be a 15/1 liquid/gas ratio. If you prime
with 3/4 Cup dextrose and get 15 psi in the bottle you would have to leave a
1/3 liter air space (about 12 oz) in your mini keg to get the same ratio. If
you left only a 4 oz space you would develope something like 45 psi inside.
This may be an oversimplification and I've made some gross assumptions to
illistrate the point without getting too technical and so the Engineer types
will have sombody to flame ;-).
As far as beer type, certain beer types (British style pale ales come to
mind) typically have less carbonation than others but that's a different
thread.
David Boe
Pacific Gas & Electric Co.
DCB2@pge.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 14:38:33 -0800
From: johnj@primenet.com (John J. Palmer)
Subject: Conditioning Time Thread
Jeff Wolfe asks about the aging of beer; does it really accomplish anything?
Nothing is absolute and not all beers will noticably benefit from aging,
but it is my firm opinion that aging definitely plays a part in all beers
that have not been filtered. I age all of my beers, including ales, for at
least 2 weeks in the secondary before kegging. I recently served a Brown
Malt Porter for the Southern California Homebrew Festival. It was a total
of 3 weeks old when I kegged and force carbonated it for the festival. If
you have ever tasted Hugh Baird Brown Malt, you know how bitter, smoky and
tangy it is. Truly a unique malt. I have know idea how the old English
could stomach a beer made entirely from this malt, but they apparently did
for the Old Porters. At the festival the beer was good and the brown malt
was quite evident, the beer was clearly young. Several people commented
that they liked it, but still...
Now a month later, this has turned into a truly fine brew. The brown malt
has mellowed, providing a nice balance to the sweetness of the Special B
and Chocolate Malts. Aging ie Conditioning has shown its value.
The fermentation of malt sugars into beer is more than just attenuation,
which can be regarded as the primary activity. Total fermentation is
better defined as two phases, the Primary or Attenuative phase and a
Secondary or Conditioning phase. The yeast do not end Phase 1 before
beginning Phase 2, the processes occur in parallel, but the conditioning
processes occur more slowly. This is why beer (and wine) improves with
age. Tasting the beer at bottling time will show rough edges that will
disappear after a few weeks in the bottle. Because the conditioning
process is a function of the yeast, it follows that the greater yeast mass
in the fermenter is more effective at conditioning the beer than the
smaller amount of suspended yeast in the bottle. Leaving the beer in the
fermenter for a total of two or even three weeks will go a long way to
improving the final beer. This will also allow time for more sediment to
settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer.
John J. Palmer
Metallurgist
johnj@primenet.com or palmer@ssdgwy.mdc.com
*Check out my new Homepage, The Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
at http://www.primenet.com/~johnj/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 95 15:10:20 -0700
From: robtrish@noif.ncp.bc.ca (Robert Lauriston/Patricia Bennett)
Subject: re 'creeping regulators'
FYI I found in a small pamphlet "CO2 regulator facts and service guide"
that the first problem they mention is 'creeping regulators' where a greater
output is delivered than that for which the regulator is set. Suggested
causes are 'particles of foreign material on regulator seat', 'diaphram not
centered or worn relief valve hole in diaphram', 'freeze up due to
overdrawing capacity of regulators', 'worn seat'... Most solutions
boil down to standard mechanical advice: Take apart, clean, replace worn
parts, reassemble ensuring correct alignment, etc. The pamphlet was
Standard-Keil, PO box 169, Allenwood NJ 08720, 201-449-3700. No affiliation
etc.
Rob Lauriston, Vernon, British Columbia
<robtrish@noif.ncp.bc.ca>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 10:56:31 +1000
From: nigelt@delm.tas.gov.au (Nigel Townsend)
Subject: Re: barrel experiment
Many thanks to Jim Mosser for recounting his experiment.
Up to 10 years ago (when I left the UK), Wadworths Brewery (no relationship
except fond memories) in Devizes, Wiltshire (UK) were still selling "Old
Timer" in pins (22 pint wooden casks). This was usually kept on a cradle
behind the bar using a tap knocked into the end of the cask. No
carbonation was used. The beer (ale) is pretty strong, pretty flat and
delicious. It is probably akin to a barley wine in strength.
The only problem was cloudiness in stormy weather. The publican in my
local pub said that he had to stop serving the beer whenever the weather
was stormy as the beer became hazy. He believed that the fluctuating air
pressures disturbed the materials deposited at the bottom of the cask.
I do not know whether this is a common problem with wooden barrels.
Perhaps there was a lot of materials in the barrel because Wadworths maybe
also carried out secondary fermentation in the barrels too. I do know that
when I bought a pin of "Old Timer" on several occasions for parties, that I
was warned to set it up in place for about one week to ensure clarity at
serving.
Perhaps someone in the UK could find out more from companies still serving
beer in barrels. I am looking out for a small barrel to see if I can get a
clone like Old Timer!
Any one know if there are problems with using a barrel that has previously
been used for wine?
Nigel Townsend
Hobart, Tasmania
Australia
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 95 11:55:40 EDT
From: awalsh@pop03.ca.us.ibm.net (Andy Walsh)
Subject: Coopers Yeast
Kevin asked about Coopers yeast in 1748:
>I am interested in this
>yeast, I think from Dave in Sydney. He called it Cooper's yeast.
Lenny Garfinkel from Israel posted about Coopers yeast.
>Is it the same yeast that comes in the Cooper's real ale kit
There are actually 2 sorts.
I am told the dried yeast that comes with the kit is actually
of New Zealand origin (Mauri Foods? - I'll check this up).
It is a pretty clean, quick fermenter that seems to work well
at highish temperatures. This is the one Lenny posted about.
The packet says it works at up to 32C - but you're crazy if you
intentionally ferment it at this temperature - it is much better
to try and keep the temperature closer to 20C. If you just
cannot avoid it, then this yeast is OK at the higher end. I know
someone who read the kit instructions (absoluely terrible, they
are too!) and thought that the higher the temperature, the better,
so he wrapped his beer in a blanket and kept the beer fermenting
around 36C (about 98F). The yeast coped, but I must say this beer
was absolutely the worst beer I have ever tried. It smelled
and tasted like "car-tyre" brown.
The other type of Coopers yeast is that you can culture from
a bottle of Coopers Sparkling Ale. This is a completely
different strain, and much fruitier than the dried one. I have also
used this at higher temps (upper 20s) with some success.
Again, I would recommend closer to 20C (or even lower) if
you can manage it. I believe Yeast Labs Australian Ale was
originally cultured from this strain, so if you can get Yeast Labs,
that is probably pretty close to the real thing.
>Does anyone have any recipes for two cans of
>Cooper's real ale kits?
Coopers Sparkling Ale is a bit of an Australian classic.
It is a throwback to the sort of beer brewed in Australia
in colonial days. Coopers have been through hard times,
but have recently become quite a success story with the
greater interest in different beer styles.
It is basically of the India Pale Ale style, but is sweetish,
earthy and definitely could not be mistaken as being of
either British or American origin. A key component is the
brewing water, which is filtered Adelaide tap water. Most people
would call this water "mud". I grew up in Adelaide, and learned
to tolerate the stuff, but cannot stand it now (the water that is!).
Anyway, I have tasted beers made from the real ale kits that
I would swear were the commercial product. I am not certain of
this, but would say the Real Ale kit is pretty much reduced
Sparkling Ale wort.
So here is a go at a recipe for Coopers Sparkling Ale (20 litres)
1 can Coopers Real Ale (1.8Kg)
1kg Coopers liquid light malt extract
500g sucrose (Coopers use a 20% sugar ratio)
water treatment: 1 handful of dirt
no finishing hops.
yeast derived from a bottle of Coopers, or YeastLabs
Australian ale (do *not* use the dried yeast with the
kit as it is very different)
OG=1.052
Alternatively, just throw 2 kits together and forget the malt
and sugar.
*Andy* from Sydney.
"I *am* from here and I also live here"
PS. just kidding about the above water treatment.
*****************************
//// Andy Walsh from Sydney
//// awalsh@ibm.net
//// phone 61 2 369 5711
*****************************
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 22:02:12 -0400
From: au075@freenet.Buffalo.EDU (Glenn E Matthies)
Subject: Fast ferment
Greetings-
Last Wed. I made a wheat beer using 2 cans of M&F wheat malt
extract. The recipe is in Charlie P.'s HBC. I added the yeast
Wed. around 9 pm. Thursday morning the ferment was going so wild
the vodka was being thrown out of the airlock by the CO2. The
krausen was about an inch high in the 6.5 gal. fermenter. Friday,
it was done and the yeast began to settle. I racked Friday night.
The gravity was 1.012. The only problem was the taste. The beer
tasted like water. My questions: Why did it ferment THAT fast.
(Yeast: Muntona dry ale yeast @ 75 F). I know my beer is not
ruined. Is there anything I can do to make it more palatable?
I don't think dry hopping will cover the watery taste (and it
isn't approrirate for the style :)). I have thought of adding
some fruit to the secondary. Comments? TIA Glenn
- --
Glenn Matthies
au075@freenet.buffalo.edu
Lockport, NY
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 11:21:24 JST
From: "ED KENDALL 252-3436" <C375@gollum.sas.mrms.navy.mil>
Subject: TRUB REMOVAL
Hi all,
I've been lurking for awhile and have seen a lot of what looks like
good and helpful info, mercury notwithstyanding. I've brewed
extract/specialty grain ales for about a year and I've got a question
for the experienced brewers out there. What are your favorite
methods/procedures for getting the cooled wort off the trub? I've
tried letting the cooled wort settle for a few hours before siphoning
but that still, it seems to me, leaves a lot of good wort still
trapped in the trub. I have tried to strain the stuff through a
steeping bag but it plugs up solidly. Very frustrating. My fall back
procedure has been to wait until after primary, but most references
recommend against doing that.
Any and all suggestions and hints welcome, either way.
TIA,
Ed - Airdale Brewery
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 1995 08:16:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Sandy Cockerham__Mc625__6-0412 <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L@Lilly.com>
Subject: Pumpkin Dunkel Weizenbock Recipe
I have had several requests for this so I thought I would post it here.
Sandy C.
PUMPKIN DUNKEL WEIZENBOCK
---------- 3.75 gal. ----------
Mash for 2 hr @ 155F , 1 tsp gypsum added to mash water. Add a couple gallons
of foundation in the bottom of Gott mash-tun. Then add grains. Add 2 cans of
29 oz size pure pumpkin (the grain helps strain out the goo, I DON'T stir the
mash). A colander trimmed-to-fit used as a false bottom in the Gott.
3# Belgian Pale
.5 # Belgian Aromatic
.5 # Wheat flakes
4 oz. ea (Choc.Malt,carapils,caravienne)
6 oz. 10 lv crystal
3 oz. 60 lv crystal
6 oz. Belgian munich malt
Sparge until runs off clear (collected a bit over 4 gal)
Did a 60 min boil.
3.3# Premier Wheat Kit (last 40 min)
1 oz. Saaz (60 min)
.5 oz. Hershbrucker (30 min)
.5 oz. Tettnang (0 min)
.5 oz. malto-dextrin powder (10 min)
.25 oz. irish moss flakes (15 min)
Chill and siphon into 5 gal carboy. Pitch William's weizen yeast.
1/25/94 O.G. 1.075
racked to 2nd on 2/5/94 bottled with 2/3 cup corn sugar per 3.5 gal.
3/9/94 F.G. 1.028
****************
In the future I want to repeat this recipe with either wheat dry malt extract
or do an all grain batch.
From: COCKERHAM SANDRA L (MCVAX0::RX31852)
To: VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE (IN::"homebrew@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com")
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 09:31:28 -0400
From: DSWPHOTO@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Water in NYC
- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Water in NYC
Date: 95-05-25 17:05:45 EDT
From: DSWPHOTO
To: homebrew@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
First of all, I want to thank all that responded to my last (and first)
posting on Trub. The response was great. I feel I no longer need to lurk in
the shadows, in fact I might just gripe abit and really feel like part of the
collective.
My question today is about brewing water. I want to go to partial or all
grain and would like to know if anybody in New York City can tell me about
the specs on the water. Or is there a known source of bottled water available
that is good for brewing. Please email me or post to the collective. Thanks.
Now for the gripe!
I recently placed and order from Hop Tech in California. I found
them to be quite knowlegable and helpful on the phone. I ordered some
equipment and one of their "Pacific Coast Brewing Co." kits. The kit was
complete with malt extract, hops, ect. but without any mention of the
ingredients. When I called to find out at least what kind of hops they were
supplying in the kit I was told that they could not give out that
information. They said the "PCB Co." does not allow them to give any
information concerning their brewing kits. As a homebrewer I am always on the
look out for a good brew. Making beer by no means stops me from purchasing
beer. What's the big secret? I know it took someone awhile to formulate their
own recipe but I've found (except in this instance) that most people in the
brewing world (especially HomeBrewers) are more than happy, even excited to
share their beer knowledge. I don't think I am going to put the "PCB Co." out
of business with my five gallon set up.
I would love to hear anybodys comment on this matter. Lets make it an open
discussion. Thanks.
David.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 11:48:57 -0400
From: stevens@stsci.edu (Mark A. Stevens)
Subject: Re: Tubing for steam
Spencer Thomas wrote:
> Having recently bought some silicone tubing, I think I should comment
> on this. Unless it has a "braid" in it, the pressure performance of
> silicone tubing at high temperatures is abysmal. The tubing I bought
> (5/16" ID, 1/16" wall) is rated for 1.8PSI working at 100C (212F).
> The burst pressure at 100C is 9PSI. I would not want to use this
> stuff with steam.
Yikes!
Good point, Spencer. I should have looked up the working pressure
on all of those types of plastic tubing and included that information
as well. The silicon tubing that I was looking at has a working
pressure of 10psi at 70F....don't know what it would be at 212, but
you're right, it's likely not going to stand up as a steam line.
Just looking at the max working temperature alone does not tell
you what the plastic will do under pressure.
- ---Mark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 08:54:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: starters *are* important
> From: stampes@neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
>
> In #1746, Ray Daniels Asserted:
>
> >When using liquid yeast you MUST make a starter if you hope to have a decent
> >ferment.
>
> Not to be argumentative, but my experiences have showed this statement to
> be untrue. I have probably used liquid yeasts for my last 25-30 batches,
> and have made a grand total of *2* starters. Every single batch has
> has a decent ferment. Admittedly, if I don't pop it early enough, it
> can take 48 hours for the ferment to become really active, but as I now
> fill the carboy headspace with CO2, this never concerns me. (I never
> worried anyway actually). To further tempt fate and conventional wisdom,
> there has been one or two times, where I have not been able to wait for the
> pack to swell (brewing the night before vacation and forgetting to pop the
> pack early for example) and I have cut open a totally flat pack, dumped it
> in and prayed for the best. Guess what? It worked just fine.
>
> Starters are the ideal scenario. However, if you don't make one, you will
> in all likelihood end up with a healthy, active ferment.
>
Starters are the ideal scenario because, as Ray notes, they are the only
way to guarantee a quick, active, complete fermentation. I'm sorry, but
your limited anecdotal evidence is not sufficient reason to follow your
advice, at least not in the face of years of research and thousands of
fermentations -- the cumulative experience of amateur and professional
brewers. Or, in the face of the company responsible for producing the
vast majority of liquid yeast packages in the homebrewing trade: ask the
owner, Dave Logsdon, whether you should be using a starter.
It's certainly true that pitching the yeast without a starter will
*probably* produce a complete fermentation. But why take a chance on an
incomplete fermentation, or a fermentation that takes way longer than
necessary, or a fermentation that takes days to start, when making a
starter is so absurdly easy?
There really is *no* substitute for care in brewing.
You like anecdotes? Here's one: my last 10 gallon batch of ale was
pitched with a quart starter, aerated thoroughly (in an open fermenter)a
and fermented out so quickly and completely that we were drinking it
from the keg 8 days after I boiled the wort. Bright beer, no filtering,
flavor and conditioning excellent. You cannot do that without a
starter. Seriously.
- --Jeff Frane
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 95 16:23 CST
From: Wolfe@act-12-po.act.org
Subject: Free-style competitions
rmast@fnbc.com writes:
"Maybe someone should sponsor a "free-style" competition, where we just
dole out scores based on overall impression"
Actually, the 1995 THIRSTY Homebrew Competition will feature a special
category called the "Best of Homebrew" into which ANY homebrew can be
entered regardless of how well it fits into the AHA style guidelines.
All "Best of Homebrew" entries will be judged purely on overall impression.
Winners will receive special prizes comparable to our "Best of Show"
prizes. We decided to offer this special category because we have a lot
of brewers who make good beer but don't care whether it fits into the style
guidelines or not.
The 1995 THIRSTY Homebrew Competition will be held on November 18th, 1995
in Iowa City, Iowa. If you're interested in getting entry information,
please contact Dave Schinker at 319-523-2314 or email him at
dave.schinker@itcbbs.edu.
Ed Wolfe
wolfe@act-12-po.act.org
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 95 10:39:58 EST
From: Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna@relay.com
Subject: mashing specialty malts
There have been several postings of late mentioning the mashing (or not
mashing) of specialty grains when used in extract recipes. After mentally
collating all the info I've seen here and in books, I've come to the
conclusion that some of these grains (for example crystal) do not need to
be mashed, while others (for example Munich) should be mashed. I've also
seen phrases like "needs to be mashed together with other grains".
Well, I don't mind telling you I am confused (not worried - I'll have a
homebrew this afternoon). I think I'm mixing up partial mashing, full
mashing, and steeping of specialty grains. I don't mind mashing *all* my
specialty grains at this point because it will be good practice [a.k.a. I'm
on the slippery slope toward all-grain], but I would like to understand the
difference between what *needs* to be done vs. what might be fun to try.
Further, maybe I am already doing any required mashing by steeping? jeez.
If you can help me sort out this Gordian knot, I will be most happy to post
a summary.
Tim Fields, Relay Technology, Inc., Vienna, VA, USA
Timf@relay.com
"The smell of wet Irish moss is like a trip to the beach" ... James Ray
"Reeb !" ... Cask-Conditioned Cole & Old Speckled Clyde
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 95 10:54:02 EDT
From: spencer@med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Belgian Pale Ale (was Celis Pale Bock)
I have to second Al on this:
> My advice for a Belgian Pale Ale would be one of the yeasts of
> Belgian origin from The Yeast Culture Kit Company or Head Start.
I made an ale (1.045 OG) using the "La Chouffe" yeast from YCKC. It's
got a real nice "yeast spice" character, from (to my nose, anyway)
low-level phenols and lots of esters (yes, some banana, but not much,
and mixed with others). It was sweetish when bottled (too soon, but I
was trying to make a competition deadline :-), but has dried out
nicely over the last 6 months.
=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer@umich.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 1995 08:15:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH@kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH@kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: Weizen/Wyeast 3056
Hey all,
A few quick questions: Any special considerations when using Wyeast 3056
Bavarian Wheat?---the yeast.faq was none too kind in describing this
combination of strains, particularly that it is difficult to get the right
clovey character and that Wyeast was working to improve the situation. Of
course, I had already purchased the stuff before reading the faq. ;)
As my first question would indicate, I'm about to embark on a Weizen adventure,
and was specifically wondering about hopping rates. The recipes I've been
able to find seem to be very low in IBUs. I was planning to use 0.5 oz.
Tettnanger at each of 60, 40, and 20 min in the boil (13.5 IBU) and finishing
with 0.5 oz. Hallertauer. Does this look to be in the ballpark? BTW, this
recipe will be all-grain as shown below. Feel free to comment (privately or
otherwise) on the grain-bill as well---oh, and no, I don't have local access
to authentic German grains. :-( It was all I could do to scrape together this
stuff at my local supplier---and it's also "clean-out-the-cupboard" time.
This recipe should be enough in and out of style to appropriately perturb both
the "Stylers" *AND* the "Anti-Stylers". ;-)
3.0 lbs US Wheat malt
1.0 lbs Belgian Wheat malt
2.5 lbs US 2-row pale
2.0 lbs US 6-row pale (should be lager??)
0.5 lbs US cara-pils
0.5 lbs British 40L crystal (appropriate??)
My thanks to the collective and brew on.
Bones (sorry for the big sig, I'm trying to cut back.)
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
| Timothy Laatsch |email: laatsch@kbs.msu.edu | Aspiring |
| Graduate Student |phone: 616-671-2329 | All-Grain |
| Michigan State University |fax: 616-671-2104 | Homebrewer |
| Kalamazoo, MI | ;^) | & Scientist |
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
------------------------------
Date: 05 Jun 95 10:13:09 EDT
From: Ray Daniels <71261.705@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast Starters
Joseph.Fleming@gsa.gov says:
>Ray Daniels cites an average of 1 to 5 billion cells in a swollen
>liquid yeast pack and a needed cell count of 200 billion for pitching.
>OK, so maybe they can't make the pack 80 times bigger, but can't they
>increase the cell count and create something that approximates a good
>pitching rate? Well, I figger there's reasons - can yeast wizards
>elaborate?
I assume there is a cost issue involved here. First, just the cost of the wort
and
nutrients to grow up the additional yeast. Shipping a heavier, larger package.
You
could concentrate it, but the normal technique for concentrating yeast (in the
lab or
at the brewery) would be centrifugation and this would be quite costly on the
kind of
production basis needed to make thousands of yeast packs every week. Also,
viability
may come into play if you tried to collect a "paste" of flocculated cells.
It will be interesting to hear what those involved in the yeast trade have to
say about this.
stampes@neocad.com (Jeff Stampes) says:
>I have probably used liquid yeasts for my last 25-30 batches,
>and have made a grand total of *2* starters. Every single batch has
>has a decent ferment. Admittedly, if I don't pop it early enough, it
>can take 48 hours for the ferment to become really active, but as I now
>fill the carboy headspace with CO2, this never concerns me. (I never
>worried anyway actually). To further tempt fate and conventional wisdom,
>there has been one or two times, where I have not been able to wait for the
>pack to swell (brewing the night before vacation and forgetting to pop the
>pack early for example) and I have cut open a totally flat pack, dumped it
>in and prayed for the best. Guess what? It worked just fine.
I guess everyone has a different definition of a "decent" ferment. Mine is that
you
reach high krausen within 24 hours of pitching (and preferably within 12 hours).
Anything longer than 24 hours means you have substantially changed the dynamics
of the ferment. (Yeast growth, oxygen uptake, nutrient usage, etc.) Flavor
differences may be encountered.
Then too, the longer it takes the yeast to get going, the greater period of time
the
bacteria and other beasties (technial term) have to multiply in your wort.
Kirk Fleming / Metro Technologies <flemingk@usa.net> says:
>However, based on common usage I've seen and heard part of the term 'starter'
is
>apparently used to mean either a treatment meant to make (dry) yeast happy and
>prepped, and also to increase the population of (liquid) yeast. So, some folks
may be
>talking 'starter' in the dry yeast context, meaning warm water pretty much.
I've never heard the term "starter" applied to the process of rehydrating dry
yeast and
I would suggest to those using it that it is confusing if not downright
incorrect.
When I occasionally use dry yeast, I will actually add a half-cup to a cup of
cooled
wort to the rehydrated yeast an hour or two or so before pitching. If the yeast
is viable, I
will soon see clouds of white foam start to appear on the top of this wort/yeast
mixture. I believe the proper term for this process is called "proofing" or
perhaps
"proving" the yeast. The objective is not to increase the yeast population, but
simply
to get it going and demonstrate that it is viable.
Personally, I reserve the term "starter" for occasions when you are actively
trying to
multiply the population of yeast. In these cases you will add 5 to 20 times as
much
wort as you are starting out with. I suppose technically you might accurately
describe
this as "propagating" the yeast.
Kirk Fleming / Metro Technologies <flemingk@usa.net> also says:
>My question is: for some given cell count-to-sugar mass ratio
>can one expect a certain average number of such splits? IOW, if you know
>the mass of food and know the number of cells, can you estimate how many
>times the cells will split before the food is played out?
Good question. One of the microbiologists may be able to explain why I'm wrong,
but
I think thge answer is NO. Yeast growth depends upon more than just sugar.
They
also need oxygen and nitrogen (usually called Free Amino Nitrogen or FAN.)
Oxygen, in particular is critical for the creation of cell walls that are needed
for
replication. Thus, characteristics other than fermentable sugar will play a
role in the
total number of cells produced. Also, I suppose some of it will be strain
dependant.
Having said that, it may still be true be that useful approximations are
available to
guide the use of starters.
When breweries are propagating yeast, they provide constant agitation and
aeration
to maximize growth. Of course, the resulting yeast population doesn't exactly
produce a "normal" ferment the first time you use it.
Regards
Ray Daniels
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 11:07:21 -0400
From: hbush@pppl.gov (harry)
Subject: Singing the Praise of Amylase!
My apologies, I'm just an extract brewer ( couldn't leave that one
alone!). Anyway, I posted about a couple of "stuck ferment" batches some
months ago and got the usual helpful advice regarding yeast manangement and
fermentation procedure. Unfortunately, this was not my problem. However,
there was some discussion on the HBD regarding unfermentable starches in
the wort and adding amylase enzyme to the stuck fermentation, so I said
"what the f**k, lets try it".
I added 1 tsp. of amylase (no further information here as to type
or derivation, the package just said amylase) to each of the 5 gal. batches
on April 24, and they're still bubbling away! Here's a brief status:
TYPE OG STUCK AT PRESENT GRAVITY
(strong) IPA 1.064 1.038 1.021
Lager (well, steam) 1.050 1.030 1.010
I did repitch some yeast into the lager with the enzyme (cause I
had it on hand), and maybe that's why it seems to be proceeding slightly
better than the ale.
Now how does an extract brew achieve such a high level of
unfermentables? Both batches contained some specialty grain malt which was
steeped in the brew water as it was heated and removed as the water began
to boil ( a la Charlie P.). Both contained a lot of DME. SO, Harry waited
until he pulled the specialty malts in the mesh bag out of the brew water
(now boiling), and just dumped in the DME in. Yeah, you get this glop on
the stirring spoon that looks like a giant mutant Sugar Daddy, which
eventually re-melts. My theory is that this (lack of?) procedure
"complicated" a good deal of the DME's simple sugars, making them
unappealing to yeast. The amylase is undoing all that, but at a slow and
steady pace. I'm just going to wait it out, because I'm afraid of bottling
too soon and creating neat little bombs.
By the way, I still owe the HBD a summary of my Mini Keg inquiry.
Coming soon!
Harry
.................................................................
"Over the gums and into the tum, yummy, yum, yum!"- Capt. Pissgums
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 95 11:19:46 EDT
From: spencer@med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Styles in Compention
StanM13541@aol.com wrote about Styles in Compention:
: Examples: Thomas Hardy Ale OG 1.127, barleywine max OG 1.120 (from suds)
Hard to argue with that one. However, I defy anybody to tell the
difference between 1.120 OG and 1.127 OG by taste. :-)
: EKU 28 Dopplebock OG 1.112, dopplebock max OG 1.080
EKU 28 is not a dopplebock by German law, which sets a very specific
range (smaller than the AHA guidelines) for dopplebocks. The AHA
category (albeit misnamed) into which EKU 28 fits is "eisbock".
: Old Peceular Ale Color in the 50's and NO English styles
: come close to it.
Closest is probably "old ale". I wouldn't get hung up on color.
Color counts for 2 points out of 50 when judging, or about 4% of the
total. Old Peculier might be better entered as a "specialty" beer,
anyway, because of the treacle.
: McEwans Scotch Ale black as coal, Strong Scotch ale max
: color 47.0 srm
47 is black. Anything above about 30 is black. Note the verbal
description of color for the Strong Scotch Ale category: " Deep copper
to very black."
As a reference point, Guinness Draft color is given as EBC 130, which
translates to roughly 60 SRM (or closer to 40SRM if you believe the
AHA's chart). Is McEwans as black as Guinness? I don't think so.
=S
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 95 10:23:07 MDT
From: stampes@neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Smoking Grain/Sanitary Kegs
Kirk Harralson bemoaned his grain-smoking adventures:
>to crush -- I had to take my mill apart to clear it. I dried the
>grain on cookie sheets in a warm oven, but obviously there was still
>considerable moisture inside the grain.
My advice would be slightly different. I tried it once, and did experience
a few problems, but saw the light on handling it properly. There should
be no need to dry it in the oven. Briefly rinse the grains, and put them
in a cookie sheet of some type in the middle of a Weber. If you put the
charcoal and wood chips on the sides (not under the sheet) you can avoid
scoarching the grains (indirect method for the charcoal-grilling-literate
among us). Keep the lid on, but remove it and stir and turn the grains
about every 5 minutes. Keep doing this until the grains are BONE dry.
If needed, keep adding wood chips to keep the smoke going. After this,
crushing should be pretty easy.
I had a little free time on Saturday, so I decided to refurbish some
kegs I had not used before. So I bought all the needed gaskets, and
went to work. While I was scrubbing the outside of the kegs to clean
them off some, and taking them apart to replace rubber, I decided to
go whole hog and got out the BEST and sanitize them as well. No real
reasonother than doing a job completely. After I was done, I replaced
the lids and put them out in the shed. My question is this: If I am not
going to put beer in these for another week or two (I have two batches
that should be ready then) do I need to resanitize? I seated the lids
firmly with CO2, so I would think that they would still be sanitary
regardless of how long they sit. Is my thinking flawed?
"Johnny's at the Urinal, he's pissing on the wall
If he hits the radiator, we'll smell it in the hall"
Jeff
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 95 14:31:08 EDT
From: Tim Lawson <lawson@clcunix.msj.edu>
Subject: San Francisco Brewpubs
I'll be going to San Francisco and Lake Tahoe at the end of June. Can
anyone recommend some good brewpubs or bars with lots of microbrews to
visit (I'll definitely be stopping by Anchor)? Thanks in advance!!
Tim Lawson
Cincinnati, Ohio
lawson@clcunix.msj.edu
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 13:17:08 -0500
From: rlarsen@squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: Diacetyl and lagering
CSS2@OAS.PSU.EDU (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
writes to jwolf@smtplink.penril.com :
> Diacetyl is another chemical that will give you
>a butter/butterscotch flavor in beer; lagering at a low temp (<50F) will cause
>the yeast to reabsorb the diacetyl for food.
This is incorrect. The cool fermentation results in lower ester production
thus a less fruity, more crisp beer. The diacetyl is reabsorbed when the
temperature is raised up to around 60-70. This is sometimes refered to a
diacetyl rest. Some lager yeasts will require this rest otherwise you'll
wind up with a beer that would taste pretty darn good poured over popcorn.
=> Rich <rlarsen@squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL. Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
Spice is the varity of life.
________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 05 Jun 95 14:37:49 EST
From: Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna@relay.com
Subject: RE all-grain taking too much time
In HBD 1749, Douglas Rasor" <drasor@HOFFMAN-ISSAA2.ARMY.MIL> notes:
>I don't see myself going
>to all grain ever mostly do to the time and equipment that seem to go
>along with what appears to be a great undertaking as compared to the
>3-4 hours I personally spend now.
RE equipment, I cannot offer any guidance.
RE time, however, I have your answer: brew 10 GAL+ all-grain batches. 4
hrs for (I assume) 5 Gal extract brew, or 8 hrs for 10 gal of all-grain
brew - samesame! And (just thought of this) only one cleanup.
Tim Fields, Relay Technology, Inc., Vienna, VA, USA
Timf@relay.com
"The smell of wet Irish moss is like a trip to the beach" ... James Ray
"Reeb !" ... Cask-Conditioned Cole & Old Speckled Clyde
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 14:55:15 +0500
From: fcaico@ycc.Kodak.COM (Frank Caico)
Subject: Kegging help
Hi everyone,
Me and my brewing partner just won best of show in a beer competition - for
which we got a kegging system!
Anyhow, I am now trying to keg my beer for the first time and I have a few
questions (I read the kegging issue of zymurgy but it didn't answer all my
questions).
How much iodophor should one use to sanitize?
.5 oz for 5 gallons? 2 tsp? how much?
If I put the keg in my refrigerator (standing up) and put the CO2 cannister in
with it standing at the same level, do I have to worry about beer going into
the regulator? If so, what should I do about it?
I read that you don't have to worry about beer going into the regulator if you
have a cut-off valve. How do I know if my regulator has this? If not, how much
are they?
Can I carbonate my beer by just hooking it up and setting the regulator for the
right temperature for a couple of days, or do I still have to shake some CO2
into the beer?
Where can I get some more ball-lock kegs cheaply? The place that donated my
kegging system sells only new ones at $77 a pop (no pun intended).
Thanks in advance for your help!
Frank
- ----
__ __
__/\_\ -------------------------+------------------------------ /_/\__
__/\_\/_/ Frank L. Caico | Eastman Kodak Co. \_\/_/\__
/\_\/_/\_\ -------------------------+ 901 Elmgrove Road /_/\_\/_/\
\/_/\_\/_/ Internet Adress: | 2/5/EP MC: 35400 \_\/_/\_\/
\/_/\_\ fcaico@ycc.kodak.com | Rochester, NY 14653-5400 /_/\_\/
\/_/ -------------------------|------------------------------ \_\/
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Date: Mon, 05 Jun 1995 15:10:35 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556" <BRADLEY_DAVID_A@Lilly.com>
Subject: Thanks/Siphoning Tips
First, learning from the HBD I just did my first all-grain batch. This is
a TERRIFIC resource, a place to get good ideas...and to help
clarify what brewing is really all about. Thanks!!!
My two pfennigs about siphoning. The new BT has some great suggestions
from readers about siphoning from glass carboys! The best IMO
utilizes a plastic carboy cap w/2 ports...one through which the
racking cane passes and the other to which a 1 gal plastic jug can
be attached via a bored stopper. One simply squeezes the former
milk jug to create a low positive pressure in this full carboy
and watch the beer flow from the racking cane into the tube and
into the attached empty carboy! Pull off the jug and you're
done. Great idea! Anyone think there's serious contamination
risk with this?
My only change will be to try and use a foot pump, those used to
inflate rafts, in place of the jug. This would free both
hands for collecting SG samples, guiding the output hose, etc.
db
From: BRADLEY DAVID A (MCVAX0::RC65036)
To: VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE (IN::"homebrew@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com")
cc: BRADLEY DAVID A (MCVAX0::RC65036)
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Date: 5 Jun 95 14:37:00 MDT
From: "Robert Waddell" <V024971@Tape.StorTek.Com>
Subject: Mercury beers?
Ok... I guess I still don't have this Mercury thing figured out yet.
We have a 1965 Mercury Monteray sitting in the driveway that my wife and I
are in the process of restoring. We've replaced a lot of parts and still
have the old ones laying around. Is it ok to use the used parts for our
beers or do they have to be new Mercury parts? Would the old power steering
pump go better in a stout or a porter? Would I have to degrease the brake
drums or just throw them in the mash? Would the Mercury air filter be ok
for airation? Would the old Mercury seat covers make good hop bags?
Inquiring Mercury owners want to know! #%^)
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1750, 06/06/95
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