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HOMEBREW Digest #1706
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1995/04/17 PDT
HOMEBREW Digest #1706 Sat 15 April 1995
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Stone Beer (Scott Reich)
Trub, Wort Chillers,Rims (JOHNMAJ)
help for a novice (ramsey)
Re: Brewerys and Pubs (Mark Peacock)
CO2Disconnect/Orval/Piddling Schmidling Revisited (Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock)
Whoops! ("Lee C. Bussy")
Re: Brew Day ("Lee C. Bussy")
Patting himself on the back ;) ("Lee C. Bussy")
Torque - final words (Dick)
pale ale kit (Paul Sullivan)
More water questions (John T Faulks)
Beer spiced with dry chiles (Robert Rybczynski)
In answer to Bob Jones barley post mash. ("Todd Miller")
Partial Mash Qtn, Liquid Yeast Advice (spencert)
Contest results (Alan Folsom)
You say Bernouli, I say Venturi... (Ed Hitchcock)
BIG Pot... (Robert_Ser)
New Club Needs Suggestions (MATTHEW BUKER)
Tubing warning (spencer)
Re: Brewing waters of the world (longish) (spencer)
Antibacterial dish soap (David M. Muzidal)
How to tell when a keg is carbonated? (Eugene Sonn)
Altered Beast (Timothy L. Burger)
Buckwheat. (Russell Mast)
re: AMYLASE ENZYME (McKee Smith) (Collin A Ames)
Grassy flavor summary (Keith Frank)
Caffeinated Beer? (Aaron Shaw)
Ham Beer (Rich Larsen)
mashing dark grains/sprouting spents ("David B. Sapsis")
TSP wars (Bradley Alan Barber)
Questions about my stout; wort chillers (Darren Tyson)
Hop Faq (Aaron Shaw)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 95 16:30:53 -0400
From: scottr@trnd.rdsystem.com (Scott Reich)
Subject: Stone Beer
I've been brewing for a couple years now and I would like to try to
brew a stone beer similar to the one brewed by Bosco's Pizza Kitchen &
Brewery. Has any tried this? I've seen the article and recipe in the
special issue of Zymurgy on indigenous brews. Is this a good recipe?
Any suggestions or techniques would be greatly appreciated.
TIA
Scott Reich
~
scottr@rdsystem.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:41:16 -0400
From: JOHNMAJ@aol.com
Subject: Trub, Wort Chillers,Rims
Dan Pack said:
What I did was stir the cold wort in a circular motion to set up the
whirlpool and then let the break settle for 15 min. Well this didn't work for
beans.
Dan you might want to make a counterflow chiller. You probably have every
thing you need. Simply take your 50 feet of tubing, and coil it in a bucket.
Put the bucket in your sink, and fill it with water. Go to the drug store,
and buy on of those faucet to hand held shower adapters. Cut of the shower
head, use this hose to put the water into the bucket at the bottom. If you
put the hose in so the outlet is laying along the side of the bucket, the
flow will create a whirlpool effect in the bucket. Using this kind of chiller
you can whirlpool the hot wort, which I do, and have no trouble in keeping at
least 90% of the trub out of my fermenter. Of course you will still have the
cold break, but you can't have everything. Also I have never had a beer go
bad because of trub in the fermenter, provided I did not leave it on the trub
too long.Chris Barnhart said he was making a 3 barrel Rims system, and asks
how previous systems were plumbed.
First a word of warning. My friend and I used the RIMS system, and were so
pleased with it we tried to make a bigger one. We tried to make a 1 barrel
system using a 106 quart cooler as our Mash\Lauter tun. We were using a 5500W
240v water heater element with 120v for approximately 1375 watt output. At
this power level it took 50 to 70 minutes to go from 122 to 158 degrees. Also
at this size of batch the famed temperature variation of plus or minus .1
degree vanished. The mash was so large we could not evenly distribute the
heated liquid. We therefore had to heat till we were within 10 degrees of
target temp, stop recirculateing, and stir the mash to equalize the temp
variations. We would then find out where we were temp wise, and start heating
again. If we did not stop periodicly to mix, we could easily take portions of
tha mash above 170 degrees.
In summary for batch sizes up 25 lbs, and probably a little above that the
rims system is great, but for 50 LB mashes or above its marginal at best.
As for plumbing we used those steel braided hoses that are in hardware stores
for hooking up dishwashers. I know its not food grade plastic inside the
braid. We let the RIMS system run for 9 Hours, at 200 degrees with just water
in it. Cooled the water drank it side by side with the same water, and could
not detect a difference. We have now used these hoses on upwards of twenty
batches with no problems. We still use them for reculculating our mash to
clarify it, and for delivering our sparge water to the mash tun.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 04:30:49 EST
From: ramsey@tccbbs.com
Subject: help for a novice
I've just made my first batch of brew at Christmas for a gift and it
turned out pretty good and without all the trouble that I had
anticipated that it might be. (Waiting was the hardest part!) I've been
reading this echo for a little while to pick up some pointers and I have
a few questions that I hope someone can help me with.
1. I'm looking for some pointers for making a non alcoholic beer. If
this is possible.
2. I viewed the competition results and noticed that there is a catagory
for herb beer and herb mead. I'm interested in finding out more about
both of these. I made my first batch of mead this past summer and was
not too thrilled with it. I'm hoping that it will develope some body as
it ages. I was more satisfied with the clover mead and it's mellow
flavor. I grow herbs and keep bees and would love to combine the two. At
this point any help is appreciated whether in e-mail or here in the
digest.
Thanks
Cheryl
ramsey@tccbbs.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:29:31 -0700
From: mpeacock@oeonline.com (Mark Peacock)
Subject: Re: Brewerys and Pubs
>From HBD #1703,
>I see alot of people asking "I will be in so and so, where should I go" Is
>there not a FAQ somewhere with this info? If not, I will compile one if
>people will help by submitting information and comments in a standardized
>format. This could get VERY large and time intensive, so if it is not
>standardized, it will take too much time and I may let it slide. Private
>E-Mail ideas for a format, or post the location of a current FAQ. I will
>let everyone know what I come up with.
Followed 3 messages later by,
>I am getting married in May and hope to travel to Quebec City for a honeymoon.
>Would those who know please suggest good bars and brewpubs for Quebec City.
>Also any must stops along the way there from Wisconsin
>(i.e. Madison -> Chicago -> Detroit -> Toronto -> Montreal -> Quebec City)
I had the same question for a San Francisco trip over the Easter weekend. I
checked out the Brew Tour on the Real Beer Web Page (I don't know the URL,
but I accessed it from Spencer's Beer Page). The Brew Tour has a
brewpub/microbrewery data base which is searchable by City, State or Area
Code. The output I received provided name, address, phone number, hours and
classification (brewpub or microbrewery). For the Web-enabled, it provides
a good resource for such questions
Mark Peacock "It's not the years,
mpeacock@oeonline.com it's the milage"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:42:48 -0700
From: pbabcock@oeonline.com (Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock)
Subject: CO2Disconnect/Orval/Piddling Schmidling Revisited
Greetings!
>> In HBD 1702, Matt Wuerstl asks about using garage-type disconnects on his
CO2 tank...
Bingo! I've been using just that. Brass compressed-air disconnects such as
those used by your friendly (if expensive) neighborhood mechanic. In a
little better than a year, no problems. With a fresh tank and open flow,
I've observed some condensate in the clear tube leading to the disconnect;
but it has done little more than feed my idle curiosity.
>> In a previous (forgot the number) HBD, Algis Korzonas responds to a
(friend of a) potential commercial brewer that he has some homebrewed Orval
aging in his cellar...
Well, Algis, being of a curious nature, and never having had Orval, I ran
out to the store and bought a bottle. The end result is that I will BEG, if
necessary, for that recipe. Please-oh-please-oh-please. Private e-mail if
afraid that commie (commercial) brewer is listening, but I'd bet there's a
whole GROUP of us who began uncontrolled salivation upon mention of this...
>> Jack whines online...
As a "proud" owner of a Schmidling Maltmill (tm, r, C, and whatever other
little letters may be applicable), I can attest to anyone out there that you
will find none finer; short of a commercial 6-roller mill. Upon purchase, I
will advise you to close one eye, and squint the other before reading any
enclosed literature. One of those cheesey, dot-matrix printed pages are
'directions' (pitiful at best, but the only thing you really need to know is
to ignore the little man behind the curtain... oops! Wrong movie. Ignore the
o-ring around one roller); the rest is advertisements for exactly what
you've purchased. I guess you're supposed to give them to your friends...
Now, that aside, I do respect JS for his contributions. I don't agree with
his whinings. It's not jealousy that goads us on, it's your apparent lack of
security. You're like the little kid on the playground that just never quite
got big enough, and cries far too easily.
Let your products stand on their own quality. Don't bemoan that one
potential lost sale. It just cheapens the value of your products and opinions.
Oh, well. Now I'm a playground bully, I suppose...
Brew On!
Patrick (Pat) G. Babcock | "Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the
pbabcock@oeonline.com | end of your day as every sentence requires
usfmchql@ibmmail.com | proper punctuation." -PGB
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 05:53:52 +0000
From: "Lee C. Bussy" <leeb@southwind.net>
Subject: Whoops!
Just noticed the horrible typo's in my last post. If you saw them
and realized they were an honest mistake, thanks. If you saw them
and your post is above mine critiquing my spelling... shame on you.
If you didn't notice... well, have another beer!
- --
-Lee Bussy | The 4 Basic Foodgroups.... |
leeb@southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women! |
Wichita, Kansas | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb |
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 06:00:32 +0000
From: "Lee C. Bussy" <leeb@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Brew Day
Reid Graham asked if any other clubs do a "Brew Day".
Well, how about every meeting? The Derby Brew Club here does at
least one all grainer at every meeting for consumption at the next
meeting. I know one month is fast but aquick fermenting Ale yeast
and force carbonation in a keg makes for a quick beer.
The Rapscallions of Wichita used to do at least an extract beer every
meeting as well.
The preferred method was to pass a hat for donations for the brew at
Wichita... I think in Derby the brewer pays for the batch and the
brewing duties rotate.
- --
-Lee Bussy | The 4 Basic Foodgroups.... |
leeb@southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women! |
Wichita, Kansas | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb |
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 06:07:14 +0000
From: "Lee C. Bussy" <leeb@southwind.net>
Subject: Patting himself on the back ;)
Steve Zabarnick posted this correction in 1704:
>>17. Vienna/Oktoberfest/Marzen
>> 1st - Steven Zabarnick, independent from Dayton, OH
>
>Actually, I believe I submitted with my affiliation with DRAFT (Dayton
>Regional Amateur Fermentation Technologists).
Come on Steve.... you just wanted to see it on the HBD again, didn't
you? ;)
- --
-Lee Bussy | The 4 Basic Foodgroups.... |
leeb@southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women! |
Wichita, Kansas | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb |
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:41:56 -0500
From: Dick@ccgate.dragonsys.com
Subject: Torque - final words
>I just couldn't keep from putting in my 2 cents worth in on this
>lb-ft and ft-lb subject. They are indeed the same thing because
>of the commutative law of multiplication.
This misconception is much more common than I thought. As
used in physics and engineering, foot-pounds and pound-feet are
*labels* used to differentiate two different quantities. They are
not part of an algebra equation. Yes, the commutative property of
multiplication applies, but only within the quantity you are
measuring. It doesn't matter what order distance and force are
multiplied to get work, nor does it matter what order force and
moment-arm length are multiplied to get torque. It *does* matter
if you try to substitute one for the other, because then you are
talking apples and oranges.
I recommend any textbook on basic physics for a more detailed
explanation. As we have strayed from my original brew-related
question, I'm happy to discuss this off-line. For those who still
think the two quantities are the same, I offer the following
exercise: you are changing a flat tire and apply 200 pound-feet of
torque to the lug wrench for 30 seconds. You are exhausted but
the lug nut hasn't moved. How much work was done (in
foot-pounds)? The answer is zero.
Rich Benedict (dick@ccgate.dragonsys.com)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:02:56 -0400
From: paul@ep.cursci.com (Paul Sullivan)
Subject: pale ale kit
Fellow homebrewers:
I received a True Brew Pale Ale kit as a gift the past week and i was
wondering what I could do different (add ingredients, ferment differently,
etc.) other than brewing a regular pale ale. I have brewed pale ales in the
past and I was hoping to add a twist or two to this batch. I am a novice
homebrewer and any suggestions would be much appreciated. Private e-mail okay.
Thank you
Paul Sullivan
(paul@ep.cursci.com)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 09:06:37 -0400
From: faulks@bng.ge.com (John T Faulks)
Subject: More water questions
There have been some good water threads here with the generic advice to call
your water agency for their analysis results when you have town water. I can
handle that part.
My question is, what effect does an activated carbon filter have? I believe
it reduces the clorine (which is why I installed it in the first place) but
what does it do to the salts, ph etc. And a second question, how about
reverse osmosis water?
BTW thanks to Dave for the summary of water salts vs style.
John Faulks
faulks@bng.ge.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 09:34:23 -0400
From: Robert Rybczynski <robert@umbc.edu>
Subject: Beer spiced with dry chiles
About 2 months ago I asked a few questions regarding the use of dry
chiles in beer. I received some interesting and helpful suggestions. In
the end I did my best to combine this collective wisdom, but my first
attempt is no stunning success. Neither is it a failure. It's slightly
warming with no chile aroma. Here's the recipe for 5 gallons:
5 lbs M&F light dry malt extract (unhopped)
1 oz Cascade pelletized hops (6.2% AA)
6 Chinese (Szechwan?) chiles
1 pkg Yeast Lab Whitbread Ale Yeast
3/4 c. corn sugar for priming
8 chiles used for dry spicing (6 steamed, 2 unsteamed)
Removed stems and seed from chiles. Boiled extract and hops in ~3 gallons
of water for 1 hour. Steeped chiles from 10 minutes, then discarded them.
Started yeast in a small yeast starter. Pitched when wort cooled (I don't
have a wort chiller). Bottled approx. 10 days later with priming sugar.
Before bottling I used a wine thief to taste the beer. Since the heat
from the chile was low I decided to steam a few chiles and "dry spice"
in the bottle. I also made two bottles with unsteamed chiles.
I'm not going to throw the chiles in the brew pot again. Very little spice
was contributed from the six chiles I steeped.
I'll not put one chile in each bottle again, either. Fortunately, I limited
this to 8 beers. The steamed chiles made the brew overpowering. The
unsteamed chiles were worse, with a mild infection that caused those beers
to become hazy. The problem is not the heat. The dry spiced bottles are
about as hot as Pace hot salsa. It's the chile aroma that makes the beer
undrinkable.
My next attempt will utilize dry spicing in the fermenter. I'll try 6 to 8
steamed chiles in a musslin bag. Also, I'll put more hops in the boil (1.5
oz of similar bittering hops). The chiles seem to provide heat and aroma,
which leaves flavor wide open to bittering.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:48:12 -0400
From: "Todd Miller" <tmiller@skyserv1.med.osd.mil>
Subject: In answer to Bob Jones barley post mash.
In brief, yes.....
My sanitary engineer spilled some of my spent mash from my garbage can at my
curbside. I now have a virtual barley forest at my mailbox. The only problem
is that it was from a multi-malt brew and who can tell which one(s) it is that
survived? In the future it might pay to brew a single barley and methodically
plant the spent mash. Sounds good in theory but something tells me that the
only sure way it will grow is when you don't want it to....don't know which one
it is....or don't like the type it is!!!!
Regards,
Todd A. Miller
- --
Todd Miller Internet : tmiller@skyserv1.med.osd.mil
EDS/SIDDOMS Phone : (703)-845-3839
Skyline Four, Suite 800
5113 Leesburg Pike
Falls Church, VA 22041
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 9:56:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: spencert@justice.usdoj.gov
Subject: Partial Mash Qtn, Liquid Yeast Advice
Greetings Brewthren:
As an extract brewer only (so far), I want to try two things to
improve my brew: partial mashing and using liquid yeast. I recall
reading in a back issue of the HBD, perhaps from a year or two ago
(of course I didn't save it), someone writing about a first timer's
partial mash system consisting of using an EasyMasher and flexible
tubing to siphon the mash out of a kettle. I would like to try
this, and would appreciate hearing from those with experience using
this setup. Suggestions and advice are most welcome.
Also, I am convinced by many HBD writers that liquid yeast is the
way to go. I would like to hear from those who have switched from
dry to liquid, specifically how the switch affected the taste of
your brew. I have read the yeast faq, but I'd appreciate hearing
first hand experience.
Many thanks, many of you have already helped me with the great info
I've picked up in the HBD. Private e-mail fine, I'll post results
if warranted.
Tim Spencer
spencert@justice.usdoj.gov?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 07:08:37 -0700
From: folsom@ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
Subject: Contest results
As someone just getting up the nerve to submit my brews to contests, I
appreciate seeing results posted. Their value is greatly diminished,
though, when the number of entries per category, or the actual scores,
is not included. I'd also like to see results of the various wide area
or national contests published. Why does there never seem to be any
information posted regarding the 6 AHA Club-Only competitions? It may
be that those organizers are net-impared, but having submitted brews to
both the Ale and and Bock contests, I'd like to see not only who won,
but how many brews were in each subcategory, and how the scoring went.
Al F.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:19:33 -0300 (ADT)
From: Ed Hitchcock <ehitchcock@sparc.uccb.ns.ca>
Subject: You say Bernouli, I say Venturi...
Just a little more confusion for the whole venturi/bernouli
discussion. For starters, I like the conclusion that a _venturi device_
operates on the _bernouli effect_. Sounds good to me. However, I would
just like to point out that the holes-in-racking-tube aeration device has
nothing to do with venturi or bernouli principles.
The venturi suction device you mount on the tap (a wonderful
investment for homebrewers, by the way) operates by constricting the flow
of water under pressure to rapidly increase the speed of flow, and this
jet is sent through a chamber which is open to the air, or suction tube
or whatever. The racking cane aerator device uses no restriction, and
the flow of wort is not under pressure. It is the weight of wort below
the holes which generates the negative pressure and sucks air in through
the holes. If one were to force a liquid through the tube under
pressure it would squirt out the holes, not suck air in. Thus the
holes-in-racking-tube aeration device is not a bernouli, is not a
venturi, but is a *hydrostatic* aeration device.
Just a data point.
ed
----------------
ehitchcock@sparc.uccb.ns.ca
the Pick & Fossil Picobrewery
Because there's more to life than just coffee
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 10:19:02 edt
From: Robert_Ser@ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: BIG Pot...
CEO document contents:
Brewing buddies,
During my searches for a second hand boiling pot, I have come
across a beautiful high quality, heavy gauge 316 stainless steel
kettle sitting in a corner of my parent's garage. It has two
welded handles, but no cover. The only problem is its size... This
little baby measures 21" wide and 30" high. A quick calculation
will show that it can hold almost 44 gallons (166 liters). I think
my wort chiller would just get lost in there.
So, before I do something drastic like cut it in half or try to
swap it for something smaller at a local shop, I thought I'd give
larger-scale homebrewers a chance at it.
I am not trying to sell it or make a dollar off it, but I would be
happy to trade it for another high quality stainless steel pot in
the 10 gallon range.
If you are interested, please feel free to contact me. Private
email is probably best...
Robert Servranckx
Robert_Ser@ceo.sts-systems.ca
Montreal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 10:29:33 EST
From: MATTHEW BUKER <MBUKER@MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU>
Subject: New Club Needs Suggestions
I am an ambitious new homebrewer interested in starting a student brew
club. I am, currently, a student at a small school in northern
Michigan, Ferrris State University. I have herd of quite a few students
who also brew, and I would be interested in rounding everyone up once a
week to here stories and swap knowledge. I feel a club is the best way
to get new ideas and meet new people.
I am an Advertising major so printing up some posters will not be a
problem. I, also, have experience organizing groups of individuals.
Most of all I love to brew brew brew!!! What else do I need? Any
suggestions? Pros & Cons?
Thank you,
Matthew Buker
Mbuker@music.ferris.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 10:43:55 EDT
From: spencer@med.umich.edu
Subject: Tubing warning
I recently replaced all my plastic because of a possible low-level
infection problem. The new tubing I got from a local homebrew shop
had a "plastic" smell to it. I didn't think about it, figuring it'd
"wash out."
Well...... Last night I had to dump 10 gallons of otherwise very nice
"plastic" beer down the drain. I use a counterflow chiller, and the
wort had apparently picked up the plastic flavor/smell from the
hot-side tubing.
Needless to say, I'm trashing that tubing, and have bought new tubing
that doesn't smell. I will also test the new tubing with boiling
water before using it. :-(
Does anyone have a source for small quantities of Tygon tubing?
=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 11:02:41 EDT
From: spencer@med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Brewing waters of the world (longish)
As I understand it:
Ca++ & CO3--/HCO3- affect the mash, Ca++ by helping release phytic acid and
thus lowering the pH, and CO3--/HCO3- by raising the pH.
Mg++ is an important yeast nutrient in small amounts.
SO4-- "enhances" hop bitterness, giving a dry bitterness
characteristic of "Burton" pale ales.
HCO3-/CO3-- interact with hop bitterness to give a harsh flavor.
Cl- (and/or Na+?) helps "smooth" the flavor in small amounts
(essentially like small amounts of salt round out the flavor of food).
Thus, it's important to do Ca and/or CO3 additions in the mash, if
you're trying to adjust/buffer the mash pH. The others can be added
in or after the boil. I don't think (but could be wrong) that any of
the ions significantly affect the boil.
Please correct me if I've misunderstood something (not that most
HBDers need an invitation :-).
=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 10:23:28 -0500
From: David.Muzidal@dssc.slg.eds.com (David M. Muzidal)
Subject: Antibacterial dish soap
The stores in my area (Dallas) are now selling Antibacterial
dish soap. Actually, it is labeled as "Dish Soap and
Antibacterial Hand Soap". Does anyone know if this stuff
is OK to use on brewing equipment, and if so, would it eliminate
the need for an extra sanitizing step (with Idophor, etc...)?
The active ingredient is labeled as "Triclosan", which I would
guess is the antibacterial agent. This would make the brewing
process much easier, but I am affraid that it is not strong
enough for brewing purposes. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
David Muzidal David.Muzidal@dssc.slg.eds.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:28:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eugene Sonn <eugene@sccs.swarthmore.edu>
Subject: How to tell when a keg is carbonated?
Here's a question for the collective wisdom of the HBD:
I'm making a triple batch of an oatmeal stout and "bottling" it
inside a 15.5 gal sankey keg. I've done this once before with great
results (a strawberry wheat), but this time I have to do it on a tighter
schedule than before and am wondering if there is a way of checking on
the progress inside the keg. Unlike bottles which you can look throught
to see how much yeast is in suspension, the keg is rather hard to see
through. I also have the added difficulty of not having access to a CO2
drive for the keg. Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance,
Eugene
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 10:36:24 CDT
From: Timothy L. Burger <burger@calshp.cals.wisc.edu>
Subject: Altered Beast
Full-Name: Timothy L. Burger
Thanks to all who responded to my question regarding the viability of the
starter I concocted. The majority of responses suggested that the activity
level of my starter was normal and that my expectations of wild frothing
were unrealistic.
Basically I had no airlock activity and a meager head in the bottle
but after three days had accumulated a healthy layer of gunk on the bottom.
I was advised by most to take a whiff and unless I detected a foul scent
to pitch it to the wort which I did and a vigorous ferment ensued. I racked to a
secondary and plan on letting it sit until after the weekend before bottling.
My main concern was the lag time between adding the yeast to the starter
to the time I saw any action. I thought that some other beasties could have
taken over in the time it took the good guys to kick in. The
date on the yeast culture was May 5, so that could have contributed to the
delay. Anyhoo, thanks again, you saved this greenhorn five bucks.
I'll drink to that.
Tim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:03:18 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast@fnbc.com>
Subject: Buckwheat.
> From: FLATTER%MHS@mhs.rose-hulman.edu
> Subject: using buck wheat
>
> The last time I was in the area health store I bought a couple of pounds
> of buck wheat grain. My original thought was to combine it with the
> pound of steel cut oats I also bought to make a Belgian wit beer. It has
> since occurred tome that buckwheat pancakes are MUCH darker than whole
> wheat pancakes. Does that mean buckwheat would make a darker beer too?
> I'd also like to know if I need to malt either of these grains. I
> suspect that they both will need to be malted before mashing them. Any
> opinions out there?
Okay, there are generally two types of buckwheat I have seen at health
food stores. Toasted and untoasted. I can't comment on the untoasted,
except that it's a lot cheaper some places, and lighter in color.
I've brewed a couple beers with the toasted and am planning to brew a
small batch very soon to really "showcase" the toasted buckwheat, to isolate
some of it's contribution. (Just pale malt and buckwheat and light hopping.)
Brew with it like you would any unmalted grain. It does not need to be
malted, but doesn't have it's own enzymes, so it must be mashed. In
quantities as low as 1/2 pound to 5 gallons, it adds noticably to the flavor
of the beer. It might be a good idea to boil it for awhile to ensure
that the starch is gelatinized. (I'm going to try it without boiling, to
see.) Crask it open with a maltmill or rolling pin if you can.
Buckwheat didn't seem to contribute much to the color of my beer, but both
the beers I made with it had other things to darken it. It added a flavor
which was similar to wheat, and it added a nice toasted flavor which was
slightly different than with toasted (biscuit,victory) malt. It also added
a flavor which I can only describe as "hearty", much like what it adds to
"hearty buckwheat pancakes". (They always say "hearty" on menus...)
So, go ahead and use it. I don't think the toasted stuff would be
appropriate for a Wit beer, but I support pioneering a new style now and
then. (I myself have been toying with the idea of making a Buck-Wit.)
As for the steel-cut oats, I recommend using rolled oats instead, but I'm
far from an oaxpert on the topic.
-R
------------------------------
Date: 12 Apr 95 12:07:26 CST
From: Collin A Ames <C-AMES@vm1.spcs.umn.edu>
Subject: re: AMYLASE ENZYME (McKee Smith)
I've used amylase enzyme once. I had a brew down in which I had used
laaglander dry malt. The fermentation process froze at 1.024 or so.
I talked to one of my local homebrew stores and the guy recommended
using the enzyme, which would break down the complex sugars in the
laaglander into simple sugars the yeast could eat. I guess laaglander
has a higher complex sugar level. I used about a teaspoon to 5 gallons.
Fermentation restarted not long after. Final reading was 1.008 or so.
I'm not really sure if the taste was affected or not, though the brew
did stay rather sweet tasting.
I don't know if adding the enzyme to the boil would be a good idea...any
chemists out there know what happens to enzymes in high heat? I'm not
even sure you'd need to use it unless you are having severe problems with
complex sugars...I suspect that the heavier types of brew may be worrisome.
Keep in mind that I'm an extract brewer, too, so maybe my commentary is
not applicable...never stopped me before, though. :)
Collin Ames
c-ames@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Collin Ames
Office Specialist
Office of the Registrar - Registration Center
202 Fraser Hall
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:14:32 -0500
From: keithfrank@dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Grassy flavor summary
A few weeks ago I requested help on a clone of Redhook ESB which
was dry hopped with 1 oz. of Tettnanger and had a grassy flavor.
Spencer Thomas and Domenick Venezia summarized some past notes
in HBD which I've edited and attached below (thanks!). Since my
post I met a brewer who told me grassy flavors can also come
from improper conditioning, i.e. not enough time in the
fermenter. I also heard from a brewer in Houston who used the
same recipe I did and also got a grassy flavor.
For this beer my conclusion is the grassy flavor was due to dry
hopping with Tettnanger. My beer tasted great out of the
primary and grassy out of the secondary. The hops smelled fine
(no cheesy or off aromas) and have been used in an Alt beer for
bittering with no ill effects. Next time I try this recipe I'll
either add 1/4 oz. Tettnanger for dry hop, or use Domenick's
procedure at the end of this post. The flavor is fading very
slowly with time, so hopefully in a month or so I won't notice.
Bruce DeBolt
Lake Jackson, TX
- ----------------------------------------------
From: SMTP%"Spencer.W.Thomas@med.umich.edu"
Some notes from past digests:
Al K in 1357:
The grassyness could be from stale grain, certain types of
bacterial infections (which could also make the brew cloudy) or
from stale hops. The cloudy sparge implies that perhaps you
sparged too hot -- too hot a sparge (too much over 170F) will
liberate unconverted starch from the grain. If indeed the
cloudy sparge was from too hot a sparge water, then the beer too
has a starch haze.
Josh Grosse in 1357:
I recall from a recent judging study session that this is mowed-
lawn flavor is one of the Higher Molecular Alcohols (HMAs).
Yeah, it could be one of the many weird hop produced compounds.
Excessive or incorrect HMAs are typically caused by too high a
fermentation temperature. Yes, ales have HMAs in them normally,
because they combine with fatty acids to produce esters. But
too high a temp will cause this sort of thing.
Jim Busch in 1364:
The aroma profile of EKGs are often described as "earthy" or
sometimes "grassy". Its the way the hop is. .. BTW, the initial
harshness of some cask hopping seems to blend and diminish over
time (if you can wait!).
Tim Lawson in 1366:
A much more plausible explanation for the grassy flavor can be
found in Zymurgy (vol. 10, number 4, 1987). George Fix states
that "barley is a member of the grass family, and thus it is not
surprising that grassy flavor tones can arise from
grains....musty smells will be detected in the malt....the best
practical measure for avoiding grassy flavors involves the
proper storage of malt....high temperatures and humid conditions
should be avoided....malt that has been ground will do this very
quickly (i.e., absorb moisture)".
Domenick Venezia in 1446:
After having a batch develop an unidentified flavor (grassy,
grainy, dusty, musty, !?) after some rather aggressive dry
hopping I have been trying some alternatives. The last and most
successful attempt was a 5 minute boil of 1.5oz E. Kent Goldings
followed by removing from the heat, putting on the lid, sealing
very well with foil and letting the hops steep for 30 minutes
before starting to cool. Just racked the stuff to the secondary
Monday and so got a chance to sample it. Yum, yum. The hop
aroma was wonderful, rich, full, floral but somehow different
from a dryhop aroma, and the hop flavor was very good too.
>From a table of hop characteristics posted by Rich Webb:
Willamette - American
Quality aroma, mildly fragrant, grassy, 4.4-7
good
Mild Ales, Pale Ales, Porters, Stouts
Fuggles - British
Traditional aroma hop, spicy, mild, grassy
2.7-6
good
Mild Ales, Pale Ales, Porters, Stouts
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Domenick Venezia, venezia@zgi.com
I made a grassy brew using East Kent Goldings some time ago. 1
oz for 4 days. I posted a similar question to the HBD and got 4
answers ( These are summarized in detail above - Bruce):
4. Stale malt. George Fix says in a Zymurgy that stale malt can
give this flavor note. Crushing the grain and letting sit
around can stale it in a matter of days if it is not sealed
properly.
I finally came to the conclusion that G.Fix has it right - at
least in my situation. I used Crisp Maris Otter from Liberty
Malt in Seattle. They store their malt in unsealed cardboard
shipping barrels and the barrel was almost empty when I bought
the grain. They also used to use an expresso coffe grinder to
crush (read shred) their grain. ...then I let it sit around
unsealed for about a week. I think that there was some
interaction between the dry-hopping and the stale grain to
create a grassy-mustiness.
This NEVER faded with time despite Mark Garetz's statement.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:33:43 -0400
From: ar568@freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Caffeinated Beer?
Greetings HBDers,
I just finished brewing a Coffee Porter and was wondering if the
resulting beer will be caffeinated. It is a 21 litre (5.5 gallon) batch
with 230 grams (1/2 lb.) of coffee (yes, I love coffee almost as much
as beer). I added the coffee grounds at knockout. So if anyone has any
thoughts on the possibility of my homebrew being caffeinated or if the
caffeine is somehow scrubbed out in the process of fermentation, it
will be greatly appreciated.
- --
"Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
Aaron Shaw
Ottawa, Canada
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:35:23 -0500
From: rlarsen@squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: Ham Beer
In HBD1704
"Crake_Kurtis_LT" <Crake_Kurtis_LT@hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Writes :
>A couple of people cautioned against the temptation to use the peel from
>Valencia (navel or seedless) oranges. Apparently this gives the beer a
>"ham" taste. I will definitely not try that. Ham? In beer? Yeeech.
I'm not sure if Valencia oranges would cause this flavor, But I have heard
that Wyeast Wit yeast strain can give an off flavor of meat or salami.
Perhaps this is the source of the "ham". I believe the off flavor is due to
warm fermentation temperatures.
______
=> Rich <rlarsen@squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL. Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
Spice is the varity of life.
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 10:41:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "David B. Sapsis" <dbsapsis@nature.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: mashing dark grains/sprouting spents
OK, I'll bite:
Paul Baker queries the Digest's wisdom in regard to handleing the
extraction of dark grains. He mentions that this thread had previously
been sorted out to the conclusion that said grains should only be added
at the end of the mash. As a previous contributor (gadfly?) to this
thread, I wondered how he got that impression. Last fall I posted that
I was unaware of any commercial brewery that used such a proceedure,
while being quite certain of many that add all dark grains to the main
mash and proceed as usual through whatever mashing program they use. I
asked if anyoner knew of any brewery that avoided mashing dark grain,
and recieved no answers. Now, the rumour that mashing dark grains
causes harshness and astringency has been around a while, but i have
never experienced it where it could not be attributed to some other
factor, and have a multitude of experience to reject that hypothesis
(ever had a Guinness?). The full mashing of dark grains in regions with
highly alkaline water (high carbonate levels) has been an integral part
of the development of specific styles of beers; that is, full mashing of
dark grains, in contrast to causing astringency, likely reduces it due
to proper pH adjustment of the mash. I ask again: Is any commercial
enterprise adding dark grains after mashout, and if so, what are the
(percieved) results?
***********
Bob Jones wants us to believe that spent grain are a viable source for
barley propagules. Sorry to dissapoint, but in addition to the fact
that malt has already been germinated then stopped by kilning, it has
been well established in the fire effects literature that plant tissues
are killed by 10 minute exposures to temperatures of 150F, and 1 minute
exposures of 160F (these are internal cell temps). Trust me folks, them
spents is dead. Now the fact that barley is sprouting adjacent to a
spent grain pile does not surprise me one bit -- I have just that
happening next to mine at this very moment. the answer lies in the fact
that numerous species of the genus Hordeum are common weedy annuals
throughout North America. Two of the most common species in the west
are _H. leporinum_ and _H. jubatum_.
Those wanting a source for seed barley might try:
Bountiful Gardens
5798 Ridgewood Road
Willits, CA 95490
**************
A big Chukkah Heyo! to Dave Draper for compiling the data on water
composition. Just more evidence that this *public* forum works.
- --Dave Sapsis
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:04:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bradley Alan Barber <bbarber@tenet.edu>
Subject: TSP wars
Thanks to all who wrote concerning the TSP residue on the interior of my
carboy. And, from the private E-Mail, I'm glad to see that I'm not a
loner! Basically, the replies suggested that I use a kitchen/bath cleaner
that promises to remove hard water stains, such as the Lime-A-Way that I
had originally proposed using. One kind person suggested that an acid
wash was the only way to remove the deposits. That started me thinking.
What is the most benign acid to be found in the kitchen? Right, vinegar.
So, last night I washed the interior of my carboy with a quart of plain
white vinegar. I used my carboy brush, then rinsed well. I'm happy to
say that the residue is no longer there. I would also like to say, that
had this technique not been successful, I would have definitely proceeded
to the more caustic chemicals. A carboy is a terrible thing to waste!
Fr. Bradley A.M. Barber
Pastoral Institute
Diocese of Corpus Christi
1200 Lantana
Corpus Christi, TX 78407-1112
E-Mail: bbarber@tenet.edu
ppwf22a@prodigy.com
Telephone: (512) 289-5030
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:50:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Darren Tyson <TYSONDR@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>
Subject: Questions about my stout; wort chillers
Greetings,
I have recently sent an attempt at a stout to my primary fermenter,
but I have some questions as to what I have done and what I can do to
make this batch come out well.
I basically followed Papazian's Toad Spit Stout recipe from TNCJOHB
with several modifications. I used 6.6 lb light, unhopped LME; 3/4 oz
crystal, 1/3 oz roasted barley, 1/3 oz black malt; 1 oz Northern
Brewer 6.6% aa, 1/4 oz Cascades both for 60 min, no finishing hops.
I didn't have any gypsum so I improvised and added four Tums E-X
tablets to the boil, each tablet contains 750 mg CaCO3. I cooled the
wort, transferred to carboy filled to 5 gal and pitched with about
750 mL starter of Irish ale yeast. (O.G. 1.058)
My questions are:
1) Any idea how adding Tums to the boil will affect the flavor?
2) Is 1200 mg Ca about right for a 5 gal batch of stout?
3) Will the CO3 adversely affect my stout?
4) Will using Cascades hops for bittering make this brew not to style
with respect to stouts?
5) Should I dry hop since I didn't have any finishing hops at the time
of the boil? If so, what kind. Fuggles? Willamette?
6) I think I crushed the specialty grains too much and got too much
powder; should I try to filter it out or should I not worry about it?
Any further advice as to how I can make a better stout is welcomed!
Also, I'm planning on making a wort chiller from copper tubing. I
know this info has been posted on the digest. Can anyone tell me
which #'s?
TIA for any replies. I, for one, truly appreciate all the time and
effort that everyone contributes to make this digest a plethora of
information for us less experienced homebrewers.
May all your beer be homebrewed,
Darren tysondr@sluvca.slu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:34:25 -0400
From: ar568@freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Hop Faq
I can't seem to be able to access the Hop Faq, could someone
kindly send it to me. TIA
- --
"Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
Aaron Shaw
Ottawa, Canada
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1706, 04/15/95
*************************************
-------
