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HOMEBREW Digest #1650
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1995/02/06 PST
HOMEBREW Digest #1650 Mon 06 February 1995
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Gravity? (Douglas R. Jones)
RE: Halogens and Stainless ("Palmer.John")
Brew shop (Michael L Montgomery +1 708 979 4132)
Wyeast 1968 ESB (James Russ)
Sanitizing SS/Isinglass&primings/fermenting on break/tubing/decoction (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
HBD #1647 (Barry_Gillott)
hop utilization and IBUs (Bryan L. Gros)
Loss of Carbonation with Mini-Keg (Chris Strickland)
Re: Dry hopping (TomF775202)
Re: Hop utilization (TomF775202)
Re: Stuck lautering oatmeal (TomF775202)
Re: 10 gallon batches (Aidan "Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen)
Bottle Washing, Cant we get this straight? ("Robert W. Mech")
Andechs Recipe (Robert Bloodworth ZFBTO - MT0054)
How should I use DRY chiles? (Robert Rybczynski)
Homebrew Digest #1648 (February 03, 1995) -Reply (James Veach)
Motorized mills ("Manning Martin MP")
Lager bottling (Ed Blonski)
EM vs. IM ("Harralson, Kirk")
Re: Control Theory (Dion Hollenbeck)
PBS Brewing systems (Dave Rahn)
Motorizing Malt Mills (GRMarkel)
Real Ale Conditioning ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
mash tun/boiler question (Matthew Howell)
Reverse Osmosis Water ("Harrington, Stephen J")
Picobreweries? (John Keane)
Washing Bottles with a Dishwasher ("Rebecca S. Myers")
1995 Bluebonnet Brew Off (9th annual) (D.D. Simon)
Re: control theory (Bill Vaughan)
WORLD CUP OF BEER HOMEBREW COMPETITION (Bob Regent)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 13:24:05 -0600
From: djones@iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: Gravity?
I have been given the basic recipe for a commercial
beer that I love. But the folks gave me the gravity
in numbers I do not comprehend. I am assuming that
they are in Plato (?).
They are:
O.G. 11.5 - 12
F.G. 2.5 - 3
Can anyone translate this for me?
Also if the recipe calls for Belgian 2 Row is this
equivalent to either Belgian Pilsner or Belgian Pale Malt>
TIA,
Doug
- --------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones
both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation
Led Zepplin | (214)301-1307
| djones@iex.com
- --------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 2 Feb 1995 13:41:29 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: RE: Halogens and Stainless
Gunther suggested that Iodine, being a Halogen like Chlorine, would be equally
damaging to stainless steel. He recommended the use of Metabisulfite for
sanitizing stainless steel kegs.
Well, I can't find any data. The one data point I did find in the ASM Handbook
of Corrosion Data, read as follows:
For 304 Stainless Steel,
Conditions:
Soap Processing; field or plant test; no aeration; |
rapid agitation. Plus 11% isopropyl alcohol, | Probably comparable
2% hydrochloric acid, remainder nonionic detergent. | to Iodophor
Concentration = 10% (vol) | More severe than our conc. of Iodophor.
Temperature = 22C/72F
Duration of Test = 90 days |
Corrosion Rate = .0071 inch/year | ie. Minimal
In addition, given the fact that Iodophor was originally manufactured for use
in the Food Services Industry, which predominately uses 300 series stainless
steel utensils and containers, I imagine that corrosion as a result of its
primary application is not a problem. Furthermore, the fact that I searched
several volumes of the Metals Handbook and could find no mention of Iodine,
except with respect to elevated temperature attack on Tantalum, leads me to
conclude that there is no problem with its use re. stainless.
Re: Metabisulfite, I believe I have read that it is effective for killing wild
yeasts in wines, but not effective at sanitizing containers. Metallurgically, I
could not find any data on it.
John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P
palmer@ssdgwy.mdc.com Huntington Beach, California
*Brewing is Fun*
------------------------------
Date: 2 Feb 95 14:28:00 -0600
From: mlm01@intgp1.att.com (Michael L Montgomery +1 708 979 4132)
Subject: Brew shop
This message is to inform all brewers in the Naperville, Wheaton, Warrenville,
Winfield area that there is a new brew shop. The name of the shop is
BEER IN A BOX
27W460 Beecher St.
Winfield, IL
708-690-8150
800-506-BREW
The store is located at the corner of Winfield Rd. and Beecher St.
in the Winfield Market Square Liquor Store. They offer a 5% discount
to new customers. They also run a Brew of the month club (Mail order
microbrew).
I have no affiliation with the shop, just a homebrewer happy to see a
choice of shops in the area.
Mike Montgomery
mlm01@intgp1.att.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 15:10:56 -0800
From: jrus@suned1.Nswses.Navy.Mil (James Russ)
Subject: Wyeast 1968 ESB
This is a response to Rich Lenihan's use of Wyeast 1968 ESB.
The last batch of brew I made used this yeast with what I thought was pretty
good success. I too was getting worried after about a day with no signs of
fermentation. Like you described the visible signs of fermentation took ~36
hours. This is the procedure I used. After racking the wort into the primary
I pitched about 2 ounces of yeast slurry and aerated the wort about 5 minutes
each hour for 4 hours. The beer started at 1.048 and fermented out to 1.015
after 6 days; temp was approx. 68 deg. throughout fermentation.
There's my 2 cents.
___________________________
| \ _____
| James Russ \ \ \__ _____
| jrus@suned1.nswses.navy.mil \__________\ \/______\___\__________
| Tomahawk Systems Engineer / \/_/ TLAM `-.
| (805)982-8326 Fax 985-9507 / `+++++-----,----,-----------'
|___________________________/ _/____/
------------------------------
Date: 2 Feb 95 16:26:00 -0600
From: korz@iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Sanitizing SS/Isinglass&primings/fermenting on break/tubing/decoction
Gunther writes:
>As it turns out, all halogens attack stainless steel, including
>iodine. Sodium or potassium metabilsulphide should be your choice.
I defer to John Palmer on the first point, but want to point out that
that should have been metabisulphite and that neither of these are
sanitizers -- they merely inhibit yeast (and bacterial ?) activity
when added to an acidic solution (like wine must). I've read where
beer is not quite acidic enought for it to work so it is recommended
to be used only for sanitizing wine must or fruit juices. Putting
bisulphites (aka Campden tablets) in water DOES NOT make sanitizing
solution.
********
Kirk writes:
>we'd like to add the
>isinglass when we go into the keg; however, we'd also
>like to prime in the keg.
>
>The question is: can one do both of these and expect
>it all to work? Specifically, does the isinglass precipitate
>the yeast as well as the proteins, and if so, is there any
>reasonable way to clarify with isinglass and yet not
>have to force carbonate?
Yes. Of course. This is how the British brewers do it -- they add the
isinglass and primings at the same time (when it's put in the cask). The
job of the isinglass is *primarily* to fine the yeast out of suspension,
but that does not mean that it removes the yeast from being active in the
cask. As long as you don't fine, *then transfer* and prime, you should
have no problems. Just remember that the carbonation level of a Bitter is
far lower than the level of virtually any other style.
***********
Dennis writes:
>Oh, I'm sure we'll hear from folks who will say that the break will inhibit
>yeast growth or some such, but I have met 1x10^13 little buddies who
>disagree. As far as the sanity (double meaning intended) of open
>fermentation, I'm sure it is more sanitary than when I siphoned into two
>carboys. These batches have been by far my best tasting too.
On the contrary... your yeast should like the trub -- they can actually
use it for nutrition during respiration. Regarding your sanity, er...
sanitation, the two-quart starter reduces your risk of noticable infection
to virtually nil and indeed, as you say, going from kettle to keg without
the carboy in the interim also reduces sanitation worries. The one thing
that you may want to pay attention to is higher alcohols. It has been
reported that fermenting on the break can increase the production of
higher alcohols. However, there are even some commercial breweries that
ferment on the break, so if you are happy with the beer, there's no need
to change anything.
**************
Rich writes:
>Tubing: I posted here before looking for sources for food grade plastic
>tubing that can stand high (boiling) temps but my post seemed to fall
>through the cracks. I'm asking again - any pointers? TIA.
HDPE tubing (that milky, water-line tubing at the hardware store) gets a
little soft and spongy at boiling temps, but if it does not have to hold
pressure, you should be okay. More expensive choices are (from the
Cole-Parmer catalog): PharMed (275F), Norprene Food Grade (275F), Tygon
Food Grade (180F) and Silicone (500F, but mind you, Silicone's oxygen
permiability is 300 times that of the others -- keep that in mind if
you plan to use this for dispensing finished beer with it also). There's
also polypropylene (275F) tubing available also, and some PP is food grade,
but it's quite stiff and thus hard to work with. Here's something...
Bev-A-Line V (200F)... it's FDA, USDA and USP aproved. Thay also have
Teflon PTFE (500F) tubing here also, which is FDA approved, but it's
over $50 for 12 feet of 3/8" OD and more for the bigger stuff.
Cole-Parmer is in Chicago and can be reached at 800-323-4340 (708-647-7600).
In general, their prices are about 200% of sources like hardware stores
for similar items.
**********
Tom writes:
>I have not
>performed a decoction mash as of yet, but have been doing alot of reading. My
>understanding is that you remove some of the mash (including grains)
>and boil it. Am I missing something here or am I worrying to damn
>much about tannins?
Yes and Yes... you are missing pH *and* worrying too much. As long as your
pH is in the low 5's, you need not worry about extracting tannins during
the decoctions.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 08:59:25 est
From: Barry_Gillott@DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: HBD #1647
Message:
Tom Baier <BAIER_T@SALT.PLU.EDU> writes:
>But I CANNOT get a copy of Suds 3.1 from the archive site
>that will boot up and run! I have tried FTP, WWW, ftpmail, etc.
Tom, were you in binary mode when you ftp'ed the executable? I
believe you must be. Before "get"ting the file, just say "bin".
Eamonn McKernan <eamonn@rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca> writes:
>How can one computer control a valve to open/close without buying
>something truly costly?
Eamonn, I was wondering if a solenoid valve from a forced hot water
furnace would do the trick for you. (This may not be priced low
enough for you though. You might check with a heating supply place.)
Of course, you'll need to use something like a relay to step up the
voltage to whatever the solenoid needs. For a heat source, how
about the heating element(s) out of a discarded electric water heater?
Again, you'll need a relay, since these (mine) use 240 VAC.
Hope these ideas help. - Barry
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:15:50 -0800
From: bgros@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
Subject: hop utilization and IBUs
The point about utilization varying depending on whether
you use whole hops or pellets is a good one. Especially if
Garetz doesn't report what kind he is presenting data for.
Garetz does present a good method of estimating IBUs in
your homebrew. This may be a good check for his formula
for calculating IBUs. My homebrew club ran this experiment
and it worked quite well.
Let's say you make a pale ale with (according to Garetz
formula) 40IBUs of bitterness. Get a reference beer with
a known amount of IBUs, like Budweiser. Jackson's and
Eckhardt's books give actual IBUs of various commercial
beers. Garetz describes the process in detail, but you
add a known amount of hop oil to your reference beer until
the bitterness tastes the same as the bitterness in your
pale ale. You can then calculate the bitterness of your
reference by adding the IBUs that Bud started with to
the number of IBUs that you added.
Now you can estimate the IBUs in your pale ale using both
Garetz formula and Rager's formula (or whoever's). See
which one matches the IBUs in the reference beer above.
I'll try this with my next beer and report back.
- Bryan
bgros@mindseye.berkeley.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:55:23 -0500
From: cstrick@iu.net (Chris Strickland)
Subject: Loss of Carbonation with Mini-Keg
For some reason, my last two mini-kegs have lost carbonation. I'm using the
hand-pump with natural carbonation. The last two kegs I've tapped are
making a low hissing sound (obvious loss of carbonation). Has anyone else
experienced this? If so, what was the problem and how was it fixed? I hate
to throw the beer away because it's flat. Could the bungs be getting old
and not making a good seal?
- --------------
Chris Strickland
cstrick@iu.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 22:55:44 -0500
From: TomF775202@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dry hopping
If you dry hop in the keg, your beer will change throughout the duration of
serving. This is not all bad, many "real ales" are hopped in the cask.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 22:52:07 -0500
From: TomF775202@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hop utilization
I use Mark Garetz formula with only the gravity correction. I find it very
acurate.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 22:52:16 -0500
From: TomF775202@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stuck lautering oatmeal
Try using a percentage of 6-row in your mash. The extraction rate is less
(use 10% more). The size of the kernel will greatly reduce the possibilities
of a stuck mash.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 16:56:45 EDT
From: Aidan "Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen <aidan@rschp2.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 10 gallon batches
Full-Name: Aidan "Krazy Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen
Dennis said:
| 4) Pitch with 2 quarts starter *directly into the boiling keg*.
| Leave lid in place.
What about aeration? Isn't this a problem?
Aidan
e-mail: aidan@rschp2.anu.edu.au
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 03:29:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech@eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Bottle Washing, Cant we get this straight?
Ok folks, I dont know why I dont just make this a faq, but here goes.
Ive been using bottles now for quite some time. Usualy I deal with the
grolsh kind, however, I do use some non-grolsh style. In either case,
heres the lowdown on how to wash your bottles, and still be anal about
sterilization.
First of you should have the following equipment on hand.
A "Jet" style bottle washer.
A Bottle Brush
A Dishwasher
Dishwasher Detergent
TSP, Chempro, or other sanatizing agent.
Procedure.
Rinse bottles with bottle washer, use bottle brush if needed. Place
bottles on only 1 rack of dishwasher. On most dishwasher, the top rack
gets about 1/3 the amount of washing power, and it does not seem to do as
good of a job.
After dishwasher is filled with bottles, use your Chempro, TSP, etc. in
your SECONDARY washer cups. This is *usualy* the ones you fill first,
then flip/move the detergent door. Then fill the primary with Dishwasher
detergent. Run a complete dishwasher cycle includeing heat dry.
Let it also be known, that you should *NOT* fill your secondary cups with
Chempro, tsp, etc. I use about 1 tsp for a whole dishwasher load, I use
Chempro.
Cautions/Concerns/Questions
Q: What type of detergent should I use?
A: Ive used, about 6 different kinds, I usualy just buy whats on sale,
I have no used a "Liquid" type, only the dry stuff.
Q: What about the washers on grolsh style bottles, do they warp?
A: I thought they would, but they seem to hold up fine. If you are
paranoid about it, then take em off, but it doesnt seem necessary.
Q: Why use Chempro, TSP, etc, in the secondary cups?
A: Ive found that this rinses off any residue that the detergent soap
leaves behind. Ive never noticed *ANY* off flavors, head retention
problems, what not from using the Chempro in the secondary cycle. I
*DID* however notice an off flavor when using the one cycle method,
this *MAY* have been due to a particular detergent.
Q: Why wash them first?
A: This gets rid of the sediment and other junk that manages to dry up or
stay in your bottle. Washing them first cleans the "Junk" out, the
purpose of the dishwasher is to clean them with detergent inside and
out, and also to sterilize them better than you can do by hand. If you
leave stuff in your bottles and it makes it to the DRY cycle, imagine
how much harder its going to be to get off your bottle once its been
baked on.
Q: Do I have to use Chempro, Tsp, etc?
A: No, you can just leave the secondary cups empty, however you do run a
better chance of leaving some detergent there. You can use just about
any "Clean Rinsing" sanatizing agent. Ive not tried iodine, but I
cant see any reason not to either.
That about covers it. Sorry for the long post, I hope this clears it
up for everyone.
Rob
--
Robert W. Mech | All Grain HomeBrewer. President, Fermentors At Large
Elk Grove, IL. | Author Of "Frugal Brewers Guide To Brewing Aids"
rwmech@ais.net | For More Information: http://www.cl.ais.net/~rwmech
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 1995 07:46:09 EST
From: Robert Bloodworth ZFBTO - MT0054 <debaydr9@ibmmail.com>
Subject: Andechs Recipe
Does anyone out there have a good recipe for Andechs, that dark brown nektar
from those taented monks at Kloster Andechs north of Munich?
Extract, all grain, with or without following the Reinheitsgebot..,
everything goes. I am willing to take any and all steps necessary to prepare it.
E-Mail replys are welcome. Thanks in advance.
Bob Bloodworth
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 09:19:20 -0500
From: Robert Rybczynski <robert@umbc.edu>
Subject: How should I use DRY chiles?
A friend gets large containers of dry chile peppers from her family in
California. She loves hot, spicy foods and has asked me to make a chile
beer for her. I realize that fresh peppers are more appropriate, but we'd
rather not turn up our noses at a lifetime supply of FREE dry peppers.
Any help, especially successful recipes, would be greatly appreciated!
Adjustments for working with dry fruit would also be very helpful.
BTW, she calls them "chinese" chiles. They are red and look roughly like
a long, large jalepeno. They are quite hot. My friend is Mexican, brought
up in the Mexican tradition (i.e., super-hot food; she drinks Tabasco
Sauce right out of the bottle). Even she finds the peppers to be hot.
Robert Rybczynski
robert@umbc.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 1995 09:22:46 -0500
From: James Veach <james.veach@arch2.nara.gov>
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1648 (February 03, 1995) -Reply
retrieve Homebrew Digest#1648
------------------------------
Date: 3 Feb 1995 09:33:40 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp@mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Motorized mills
Dion Hollenbeck warns of potential grain mill damage from a direct drive
system like I am using on my Glatt. Actually, the mill-half of the split
coupling I am using is only clamped to the mill's drive shaft, with a
(longitudinally) split bushing. The coupling's set screw squeezes the split
bushing together on the mill's power input shaft (there is no key or flat on
the shaft), and this connection will slip if over loaded.
Concerning foreign objects jammed in the rollers, this might not pose a
hazzard to the mill's drive gears, depending on the object. If in such an
event the rollers are locked together rigidly by the object, a rock, say, the
load path will be through the mill's drive shaft, rollers, the foreign
object, and ultimately into the mill's frame through its bearings (not
through the gears). If the mill can digest the object (or objects, like hard
wheat berries), there may be loads which attempt to force the rollers out of
sync, and gear damage could occur. Since these forces are reacted between
the components of the mill, shaft input torque may not even be an adequate
safety valve. I think I'll stay away from unmalted wheat, based on the
reports of others.
My preference for the direct drive system stems mainly from its compactness.
A 12" pulley on the mill's shaft would extend forward in close proximity to
the grist chute, and below the mill's bottom mounting surface. My mill and
motor are mounted to a 6" x 18" flat plate with rubber feet on the bottom.
The mill/motor combination can therefore be placed on the edge of any flat
surface, such as a table, with a bucket placed below the grist chute.
MPM
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 1995 09:15:33 -0600
From: s851001@umslvma.umsl.edu (Ed Blonski)
Subject: Lager bottling
Greetings, friends. I'll try to make this short.
I made a Czech pilsner and I bottled it about a week ago. I've got a
question What temp to I let it sit at. The homebrew store told me this was a
lager, so I was pleased that it has been chilly here.
The details:
8 lbs Munton Fison light malt extract (dry)
1 bl plae ale malt English 2 row (LD Carlson)
2.5 Saaz Hop plugs
Czech Pilsner yeast (from a liquid culture)
date started 1/15 SG 1.062
bottled 1/28 FG 1.020
its been in the bottle for about a week sitting in my basement fridge (about
40 degrees.) Yesterday I took it out of the fridge and let it sit at about
60 degrees.
Any help is appreciated.
E-mail is fine!
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Blonski (s851001@umslvma.umsl.edu) "One likes to believe in the
Rush fan (the band and the man!) Freedom of Email!" TNMS
Titus 1:5-9 "One humanoid escapee" NP
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 95 10:21:50 EST
From: "Harralson, Kirk" <kwh@roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: EM vs. IM
Andrew J Donohue writes:
>I posted this to RCB with no response so I'll try here. I
>tried Irish moss for the first time on my last batch. I use
>an easy masher in a 1/2 keg for a kettle. When I tried to
>drain the wort into my fermenter the EM clogged presumably
>with break material an irish moss. I always use whole hops
>and have never had this problem without the IM. Is there
>a trick to this or should I just avoid IM with my system?
Nothing will clog an EM faster than using IM. I even tried propping my kettle
at an angle while chilling to try to get all the break material on one side, but
that didn't do it either. I have also tried attaching a piece of siphon hose to
the spigot and blowing air through the EM to clear it, but it quickly clogged
back up. I ended up picking up the kettle and pouring it through a clean but
unsanitized funnel to get it into the carboy. Of course, it ended up infected.
My only solution, so far, is to either not use IM, or remove the screen part of
the EM between the sparge and the boil, drain everything from the kettle into
the carboy, and rack to a second carboy as soon as possible.
Some people use a racking cane with a copper scrungee attached -- this may be
the easiest solution. I have also heard of people using a slotted copper ring
that just fits the inner circumference of their kettle and siphons out the top
in the usual manner. The wort is "whirlpooled" so that all break material
gathers in the middle (I still don't know how to do this if you use an immersion
chiller...). It shouldn't be too hard to connect a similar ring to the spigot
part of the EM once the screen was removed.
Kirk Harralson
Bel Air, Maryland
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 07:40:00 PST
From: hollen@megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Control Theory
>>>>> "Norm" == npyle <Norman> writes:
Norm> Teddy Winstead goes into some detail about control systems,
Norm> including "Bang-bang", PD/PID, and AI (artificial intelligence).
Norm> What you neglected to mention Teddy is another method called AI
Norm> (Actual Intelligence). A little trial and error gets you to the
Norm> final result much quicker than you might think from reading
Norm> textbooks. Overshoot isn't even the biggest problem with
Norm> "bang-bang". Frying the enzymes in the small sample being
Norm> heated is the biggest problem area with this type of system.
Norm> So, using Actual Intelligence, one would adjust flow rates and
Norm> heating power to avoid overheating the recirculating liquid, and
Norm> this inherently avoids overshoot. Think about it. I would
Norm> recommend manual control of these parameters (possibly just one
Norm> of them) for a few reasons: it is simple, less-expensive, and
Norm> keeps you involved in the brewing process (which I consider a
Norm> good thing). A side benefit is of course, you don't have to do
Norm> all that studying about control theory!
Sorry, Norm, but I really gotta disagree with you on this one. While
in principle I agree that being involved in the brewing process is a
good thing, in practice this is very dangerous in a RIMS system.
Before I got my proportional temp controller built, I had the pump and
heater all done and wanted to use my system (read, play with the new
toy). So instead of a temp controller, I hooked up a simple on/off
switch. Really involved and simple. Just watch the temp readout and
when you come within so many degrees (by trial and error) turn off the
heat and the thermal mass catching up will slide gently up to the
temperature. All fine in theory unless you get to talking with a
guest brewer and forget that you just turned *off* the switch, see the
temp sliding up to the setpoint real fast and *turn off the switch*
(remember, it was already off, so now you just turned it *ON*). Since
there is a very large thermal mass, the fact that the heater has gone
back on will not register until much later, in fact until it is too
late to turn off the switch and prevent the many degree overshoot
which will happen.
All of this is not theory, but my own tragic experience. I came
within a hair's breadth of killing the enzymes in the first 10 minutes
of the mash cycle. From that time on, I was hunched over the switch,
muttering to myself "is it on or off, which way is it really????" The
rest of my mash was tense and unpleasant. I don't know about anyone
else, but I built a RIMS system so I could *RELAX* during the mashing
process. All I have to do is be able to correctly read my watch and
turn a dial to the correct temperature at the correct time. I am
involved in the brewing process, usually explaining it to new brewers.
If I had to be on the switch to control the temperature, I would never
again have anyone over who would possible distract me, and the joy of
spreading the word of homebrewing by teaching it while watching it
happen would be lost in my brewhouse.
You might argue that you could use some sort of dimmer switch on the
heater, but I do not know of any reasonably priced dimmer switch that
will handle 12 amps (remember, the RIMS is using a 4500 220V heater
element run on 110V at 1250 watts - 11.3 amps). My proportional temp
controller is *much* less expensive than a dimmer which will handle
that kind of current. Which leaves us back at an on/off switch,
unless you have some other alternative. Besides, the temp controller
is not that hard to build. You can buy for $185 if you are really
elecro-phobic.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814 Email: hollen@megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 08:53:23 PST
From: Dave Rahn <david.rahn@quintus.com>
Subject: PBS Brewing systems
Has anyone had any experience with this company or its products? They have
an interesting set of offerings for all grain brewing that go all the way
to a RIMS option. Does this setup work well, are they a quality outfit, any
precautions here?
Thanks!
- David Rahn
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 11:53:42 -0500
From: GRMarkel@aol.com
Subject: Motorizing Malt Mills
Just another note on motorizing malt mills. I've been through 2 revisions of
motorizing a "Malt Mill". The power source was a 1/10th HP gearmotor with a
30 RPM output and torque rating of 113 in/lbs. The reason for this motor
selection? Easy - it was free! The 113 in/lbs seems like enough (in my seat
of the pants engineering judgement), the 30 RPM a little slow, (based on hand
cranking speed) but the price was right. The first design was mounted behind
the "Malt Mill" and driven via a 1/2" timing belt. This was OK but always had
problems with belt tension and skipping teeth (slipping) under load. I also
didn't like the idea of side loading the driven roll, my fear was the bronze
bushing would die a premature death. But it did work, (although slowly)
providing a good crush. The 2nd revision I pulled out all the stops,
remounting the mill on an elevated platform hold both the motor and mill,
allowing the collection bucket to slide in and out without lifting the mill
and motor,(as in revision 1) and replaced the belt drive with an in-line jaw
type coupling. This has been in service at my local homebrew shop for the
past 9 months with no problems.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 95 09:41:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR@afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Real Ale Conditioning
In HBD #1648 <B.Gowland@rhbnc.ac.uk> answers Ferguson who
answered me re: "cask condxing vs. keg priming", and says
>...I do not prime and I do not fine
Please excuse me for needing so much hand-holding--but let
me verify I understand. Are you saying that a 3 week
secondary fermentation/conditioning in your pressure
vessels is sufficient to both clarify and carbonate to
your taste? Is your 3 week minimum condxing period
at ~room temperature?
BTW, when we used isinglass for the first and only time
I added it incrementally as we pumped our chilled wort
from the fermenter into the keg, then tried as best we
could to agitate without sloshing too much. I noticed
absolutely no indication of clarification--the beer
is still fairly opaque (it's a brown ale) after three
weeks in the cooler, and is definitely not "bright". I
have no point, I'm just relaying results and trolling
for comments.
-flemingkr@afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
-BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 09:42:20 -0500
From: Matthew Howell <howell@ll.mit.edu>
Subject: mash tun/boiler question
Greetings everyone!
The other day my father and I were downing a few
homebrewed stouts, and the talk turned to brewing equipment.
We were discussing ways to reduce the risk of a scorched
mash when direct heating is used. ( I mash in a converted
keg, BTW) My father suggested employing a double-boiler
type setup to eliminate direct contact with the flame, and
still allow the use of a Cajun cooker as a heat source.
This seems plausible, the only drawbacks I can see are a
possibly longer period of time to reach the temp. rests, and
less precise temp. control.
Has anyone used this arrangement, and if so, would you
care to comment? Thanks to all.
Matt
howell@ll.mit.edu
------------------------------
Date: 3 Feb 1995 09:26:11 -0800
From: "Harrington, Stephen J" <sharrington@msmail4.hac.com>
Subject: Reverse Osmosis Water
Greetings!
I have been away from my cherished hobby for almost 6 months now (bought a new
house, remodelling the new house (including kitchen), etc...). There is
nothing like reading the HBD for a week or two to get you chomping at the bit
to brew again. So.......
To celebrate the completion of the kitchen remodel, I am going to brew a batch
of IPA. This brings me to my question. The kitchen has an RO water system
(which is great -- LA water is not the best). I am wondering what impact this
will have on my brewing. I have done one all-grain up to now, and want to
continue to learn this more advanced technique. Should I not use the RO
water, and if I do use it, does it need to be doctored up with some additives?
TIA,
Stephen Harrington
Manhattan Beach, CA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 12:37:39 -0500
From: John Keane <keane@cs.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Picobreweries?
[:-) mode on]:
I've noticed that a number of the contributors to HBD identify their
brewing operations as "The So-and-so Picobrewery". Now I've been
labeling under the proud name of "Schwartzenkeane's *Nano*brewery" (a
concatenation of my wife's surname with my own; our motto: "Fine Beers
Since Sometime in April"). Just to pick a nit or two, if the
definition of a microbrewery (10**-6 brewery) given in the
rec.food.drink FAQ is correct:
2-8. What are the categories of brewers/breweries?
According to the Institute of Brewing there are four categories as
follows:
Large Brewers - Production in excess of 500,000 barrels/year
Regional Brewers - Production between 15,000 and 500,000 bbl/yr
>> Microbrewers - Production less than 15,000 bbl/yr <<
Brewpubs - Production for onsite consumption only
In addition you may see/hear the term pico-brewer which is used to
describe brewers so small that distribution is limited to pubs and
bars in their immediate area.
then a nanobrewery (10**-9 brewery) should have production of less
than 15 bbl/year, and a picobrewery (10**-12 brewery) should have a
production of less than .015 bbl/year, or roughly half a gallon or so!
Surely y'all are doing better than that!
[:-) mode off]:
_John_
Schwartzenkeane's Nanobrewery
...and darn proud of it
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 09:27:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rebecca S. Myers" <rmyers@netcom.com>
Subject: Washing Bottles with a Dishwasher
A couple of months ago I asked whether or not using
a dishwasher really got bottles clean enough to not
require further arduous treatment. These are the
responses I got.
Tom Cannon: We put clean bottles in the dishwasher
with B-Brite instead of dishwashing soap and run
through a full sanitizing cycle. It works great,
but I would be worried about putting dirty bottles
in. This method only gets around the Bleach
Soak/Rinse part.
M. Demers: Just put bleach in where the detergent
normally goes. Also, rinse the bottles out that
have sludge in the bottom before you put them in
the washer and you should be golden.
John DeCarlo: I wash all my bottles in the dishwasher,
immediately after emptying them. It seems to do fine
with bottles on the bottom rack. Those on the top rack
aren't as reliably cleaned. So at sanitation time I make
sure they are all clean. Different dishwasher geometries
may affect this. I would try a test with flour at the
bottom of a dozen bottles and see which ones get cleaned.
Rick Larsen: I'd recommend you staying with your four-step
method [soak, rinse, bleach, rinse]. I haven't used a
dishwasher but many friends have with poor results. I think
bottle washing is not much fun but I wouldn't want it to
screw up my beer.
Steve Chandler: I EXCLUSIVELY use my diswasher with no
detergent prior to bottling my beer. I used it for the
last 6 batches and have no problems or complaints. My washer
has a 'heat dry' cycle which kicks the temperature up to a
point where I have to wait a couple of hours for the bottles
to cool before I handle them. Of course I leave the washer
buttoned up during this entire period. I also use the
washer door as a platform to bottle, which makes cleanup a
lot easier.
After all this sage advice, I myself decided to stay with the
hand method. It's the only way to be sure.
Becky
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 13:10:26 -0600
From: D.D. Simon <dds1@esygvl.com>
Subject: 1995 Bluebonnet Brew Off (9th annual)
This post may be a repeat for some of you, and I apologize in advance;
My home address mailer is somewhat unreliable, and I wanted to make
sure the word got out.
The 1995 Bluebonnet Committee is pleased to announce the 9th
Annual Bluebonnet Brew-off. Not just a competition, but also
an exhibition of the best available brewing gurus in the west.
March 31-April 1st, 1995 will be the time for this event held
in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex to crown the Bluebonnet
Brewer of the Year. This year we will have a keynote address
from Charlie Papazian. Dave Miller will give a presentation,
and Dr. George Fix will anchor our Brewing Experts panel.
The Bluebonnet will accept entries in the same categories
described for the 1995 AHA National competition. First
place winners will receive a 13" Custom-made Stein and
a blue ribbon. Other entrants will receive ribbons for
finishing second or third. The Bluebonnet Brewer of the Year
is expected to receive the opportunity to brew one of their
winning beers at a local prize-winning brewpub.
Information packets have been sent to most home brew shops
across the country, and to many homebrew clubs. If you cannot
find a copy of the information packet locally, I can send you
the E-mail version. Come join us in Dallas-Ft. Worth! We
were the second largest regional competition in the U.S.
last year, and undoubtedly one of the best!
Darrell Simon
1995 Bluebonnet Committee secretary.
dds1@esygvl.com
d_simon@dfwlug.decus.org
For further information.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 11:12:35 -0800
From: bill@oilsystems.com (Bill Vaughan)
Subject: Re: control theory
Norman Pyle writes:
>Teddy Winstead goes into some detail about control systems, including
>"Bang-bang", PD/PID, and AI (artificial intelligence). What you neglected to
>mention Teddy is another method called AI (Actual Intelligence). A little
>trial and error gets you to the final result much quicker than you might think
>from reading textbooks. Overshoot isn't even the biggest problem with
>"bang-bang". Frying the enzymes in the small sample being heated is the
>biggest problem area with this type of system. So, using Actual Intelligence,
>one would adjust flow rates and heating power to avoid overheating the
>recirculating liquid, and this inherently avoids overshoot. Think about it.
>I would recommend manual control of these parameters (possibly just one of
>them) for a few reasons: it is simple, less-expensive, and keeps you
>involved in the brewing process (which I consider a good thing). A side
>benefit is of course, you don't have to do all that studying about control
>theory!
I've been doing process control software for nearly twenty years and I do
know something about it. And not to be too blunt, Winstead is pretty much
right, and Pyle is pretty much wrong. The question, after all, was how to
build an automatic controller for a RIMS system, not whether automatic
control is morally right.
I don't have a RIMS, and I control my mashes manually. But if you have a
RIMS, it makes some sense to want to control it automatically. A simple
thermostatic control is "bang-bang" rather than proportional, and will tend
to overshoot -- maybe a lot. To avoid overshoot, you need a control system
that adjusts the heat continuously, hopefully with some reference to the
actual temperature and its rate of change. Which, after all, is what you
do manually.
If you want a decent automatic controller, a PID or fuzzy-logic (Winstead's
"AI") control algorithm is likely to be best. You can get such a thing off
the shelf, though they are expensive. Don't try to do a PID controller at
home. Though the theory is quite simple, the devil is in the details, and
there are a lot of them. A fuzzy controller might be easier.
It doesn't matter whether you know control theory or not -- it still
applies. Overshoot is nearly unavoidable in all feedback control systems,
whether manual or automatic. Oscillation and chaos, which can be worse
than overshoot, are also hard to avoid. This is particularly true in
processes with large transport or "dead" times, like controlling the
temperature of a RIMS, or of your bathroom shower, for that matter.
Explaining this would take a lot more bandwidth than I want to use here.
I suspect no one on this forum, including Pyle, really thinks that
ignorance is desirable -- his flame was a cheap shot and quite out of
place.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bill Vaughan Software Engineer |
| bill@oilsystems.com Oil Systems, Inc. |
| (510) 297-5834 San Leandro, CA |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler" --Einstein |
| "Simple is as simple does" --F. Gump |
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 11:39:23 -0800
From: Bob Regent <regent@hooked.net>
Subject: WORLD CUP OF BEER HOMEBREW COMPETITION
FIRST ANNUAL WORLD CUP OF BEER HOMEBREW COMPETITION
Fellow Homebrewers,
In the spirit of recognizing the development of endemic styles
of beer, the Bay Area Mashers (Northern California) are proud
to present the 1st annualWorld Cup of Beer Homebrew Competition.
The competition is sanctioned by the American Homebrewers
Association, and is being sponsored by numerous west coast beer
related businesses.
The deadline for receiving entries is March 15, 1994; judging will
be conducted on March 26, in Oakland. All beers will be judged by
experienced judges, including local professional brewers and
Dr. Michael Lewis of UC Davis. Ribbons and prizes will be awarded
to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finishers in each category, and to Best of
Show.
After judging, we invite you to a party at the nearby Barclays
Pub and Restaurant to celebrate all efforts and award the winners.
This will be an excellent opportunity to share homebrew and interact
with the professional and amateur brewers who are reviving
quality brewing in the Bay Area.
To receive more information via email including style descriptions
and entry forms, please send an email request to :
klein@physics.berkeley.edu
and indicate whether you want to receive a text or postscript
package; or if you would like to receive the information via US mail.
Sincerely,
David Klein
Competition Coordinator
(510) 527-4508
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1650, 02/06/95
*************************************
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