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HOMEBREW Digest #1658
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1995/02/15 PST
HOMEBREW Digest #1658 Wed 15 February 1995
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
lots of stuff (Jim Busch)
Isinglass Preparation - Why? (Domenick Venezia)
Cleaning Rubber off Kegs (Doug Mewhort)
Re: Hail to Ale Competition (Spencer.W.Thomas)
Triple spelling/Asking the pros (Jeff Benjamin)
Power Sparge (Jeff Stampes)
Rants/Wine yeast (npyle) <npyle@hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
RE: First All-Grain (Jim Dipalma)
Cask & barrel ideality, isinglass, judging issues (David Draper)
Gott cooler/all-grain setup (Weirup)
Seattle Area Brew Clubs? (billj)
2-row or not 2-row?/aeration in 2ndary (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
need help saving a batch!! (P. Bollman)
RIMS Temperature Control (Cary Kiest)
Re: RIMS-temperature control (Ilkka Sysil{)
Water Chemistry (Pulsifer)
Stout / Gott / ESB update (Rich Lenihan)
RE:Gravity-tapping a cornelius.. (BrewBeerd)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:42:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch@eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: lots of stuff
Domenick says:
<While responding to Jeff Stampes kind offer of compiling water chemistry
<information I realized that I was missing an important parameter in my
<quest for a Fuller's ESB clone.
<If anyone knows whether these carbonate values are valid or knows the
<actual values for the likes of Fuller's, Bass, or other Burton style
<ales, please respond by private email.
Fullers is located in Chiswick, London, not in the Burton area.
Alan writes:
< The last
<pale ale I dryhopped had 1/4 oz EKG, 1/4 oz Liberty, & 1/4 oz Williamette
<in a 4 gallon batch, which gave it a grassy type of hop aroma.
I think the Liberty may be the most grassy of the three, but all can
impart some degree of grassy aroma.
Tom asks:
< Water treatment: I merely boiled all the water (10 gallons) the
night before.
Since Tom lives in our area, I say dont bother to boil, just use a
carbon filter, the sink ones work OK.
<I am planning on doing a basic pale ale next, using mostly
Klages and some Crystal malt. Should I bother doing a protein rest?
Probably not.
<- Sparge water: From a few posts here, it doesn't sound like the fact
that my sparge water was a little hotter than it should have been is
necessarily bad. True or not
Next time, add cold water to drop it to 176F-170F. Its the pH of the
lauter that matters, and around here (DC/VA/Md), its a dont worry thing.
(Dominion and Baltimore Brewing do not treat the sparge water).
Don writes about his tripple:
<I plan on conditioning it for a couple months at 50F (my cellar temp right
<now), then pitching fresh yeast at bottling time. This is extremely
<important when you want to reproduce the lively nature of the Belgian
<high-gravity ales. It's also good practice for any high-gravity beers.
Why such a long conditioning period prior to bottle conditioning? I
can see a few weeks, then bottle conditioning, but months seem like
overkill.
offpeak@aol.com writes about Hail to Ale:
<The
<scores were 44, 37, and 36, respectively. Reportedly, Spence said "high
<scorers do not always win this type of competition". There apparently was
<some kind of second/final round, but apparently no scores were given; it
<was some kind of perception thing.
Very interesting indeed! I got a 41.5 and thought that was real high to
not win anything, now a 36 beats it! Sheesh, go figure. I also
was curious that the categories were not listed, ie: were all the winners
IPA?
Gilad says:
<In HBD1654 <ferguson@zendia.enet.dec.com> said:
>[snip]
> you can always gravity tap the keg, however, you will be introducing
> oxegen, and therefore should probably finish it off within 5 days before
> the beer spoils.
<IMHO oxygen has nowhere to come from because this is a sealed container with
<CO2 in the headspace.
<What will happen is that with gravity dispensing the pressure will
<simply drop and the beer will get less carbonated, but not oxygenated.
<When beer is dispensed by gravity the headspace grows and the pressure falls
<(Dalton`s law - Pressure * Volume = constant). The dissolved CO2 in the beer
<will diffuse to the headspace until equilibrium is reached (Henry`s law) so
<what actually goes into the increased headspace is CO2. The pressure in the
<headsoace will rise but will be lower than at the beginning and the beer will
<now be less carbonated. It will not spoil, it will simply go flat.
Well, if were going to throw around Chemistry laws, its PV = nRT, and
unless the T (temperature) is constant, than nRT is not constant. Anyway,
the idea of gravity drawn real ale is that the keg is VENTED. If you try
to serve a real ale using gravity and dont vent the cask, it will not
work well.
Jim says:
<Apparently, if the temperature of Isinglass exceeds 20 C it will
become inactive.
Make that around 10C.
<I use the following procedure: 2.5 grams of Isinglass, 2 grams of
<ascorbic acid, 500 ml water. Stir and let sit in fridge for a couple of hours.
<Blend with a Braun hand blender for a minute. Return to fridge. Blend when
<you feel like it a few times more. There should be no chunks visible. Ready
<for use in 12 hours. Shake gently before using. Store in stoppered bottle
<(Grolsch bottle is good). Use a third of this solution (167 mls) for each
<cornelius keg. Beer is bright in 24 hours. You should try and be as sanitary
<as possible when doing this.
<What I am not sure about is the precise pH that is required. I'm
<guessing.
Between 2-3 pH. Cryofine does not require 12 hours, and if you blend up
isinglass in a cold solution, it can be used within one hour. The idea
is to use a sanitized blender. Combine sanitized water or beer and the
isinglass. Cryofine does not require a acid blend/pH reduction, while
ordinary isinglass does (when using beer, the pH is already 4ish, so this
is not as big a deal as using water). Blend for 2 minutes, let stand
for several minutes, blend 2 , stand, continue for several cycles. Add
to beer. Works great. The spec sheet says this stores for 7 days, cold.
Jim Busch
busch@mews.gsfc.nasa.gov
"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:50:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia@zgi.com>
Subject: Isinglass Preparation - Why?
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 10:32:18 -0800 (PST) Jim Cave writes:
> There has been some discussion about the correct use of Isinglass.
>Isinglass is a very good fining and I believe that it is the best one to
>use in cask-conditioned ales. It does, however, require some additional
>preparation which includes: rehydration, addition of acid blend, use of
>a blender, and refrigeration. Apparently, if the temperature of Isinglass
>exceeds 20 C it will become inactive. Also, I have found that if it is
>frozen, it will also become inactive.
>
> ... Methods various people including Jim prepare Isinglass ...
>
Since Isinglass is basically expensive gelatin (collagen) two questions
come to mind. Why the extensive preparation of Isinglass? Given a good
reason for the extensive preparation of Isinglass should it be done for
run-of-the-mill gelatin as well?
Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia@zgi.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:19:46 -0700
From: lmewhort@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Doug Mewhort)
Subject: Cleaning Rubber off Kegs
Spencer Wrote About
> Algis R. Korzonas writing about removing rubber:
>> I suppose you could use fine steel wool, but I believe you would
>> have to use *stainless* steel wool (if you can find it). I recall reading
>> somewhere that regular steel wool should not be used on stainless steel.
> How about a "ScotchBrite" pad? It's sort of "plastic steel wool". I
> bet it would do the trick nicely.
> =Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI
It was my problem originally. My wife actually suggested the chemical
solution...Acetone. Worked like a charm, but you have to be carefull to only
contact the rubber you want removed. Even with the acetone it was a two hour
job, that stuff was stuck tough to both the lid and the inside of the top of
the keg.
Conclusion...The keg hold pressure!!!!!! Saved!! Thanks to: Wifes everwhere
(especially chemical botonists), Spencer and Algis.
Doug.
Homebrewer, Chef and Systems Guy. Hmm, at 2 for 3, maybe I should give up
these electronic things and open a brewpub.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 12:24:59 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas@med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: Hail to Ale Competition
"offpeak" is steamed about the results from Hail to Ale, where the
club's entry got two 47s from Recognized judges in the first round,
and was knocked out in the second round (losing to beers that scored
44, 37, and 36).
An AHA club-only competition draws at least 70 entries. It is
therefore impossible for all of them to be judged by the same judges.
It is well known that different judges score differently -- some score
consistently high, some score consistently low (and some score
inconsistently, but hopefully not too many). On a given table, the
judges can rectify their scores by discussing each beer. Between
tables this is impossible. Thus, a beer that received a score of 47
on one table might have received a much lower score at another. Thus
numeric scores *between tables* are not directly comparable.
I have to admit that I've *never* scored a beer that high in
competition, nor have I ever been with a judge who gave a score that
high. Heck, I've only met one or two commercial beers that I felt
deserved a score as high as 47.
The second round attempts to resolve the inter-table scoring
differences by taking the top (2 or 3, depending on the number of
tables) beers from each table, and having a single set of judges
rejudge them. Frequently this is done without judging sheets, and
with a consensus 1-2-3 decision reached through discussion. Depending
on the competition, the judges at the second round may consist of one
judge from each first round table, or may be a set of (3) judges
picked by the organizer. They are usually the most experienced judges
from the group.
Not to impugn the first round judges in this case, but "Recognized" is
the "entry-level" judge classification. It's entirely possible that
this was the first competition for both judges (although I'd hope not
- -- the organizer should have known better than to seat two "new"
judges together).
The other factor to consider is that the second bottle may have been
"off". I've seen this happen from both sides. My wheat beer that
took first at the HWBTA nationals last year didn't have a chance in
the best-of-show round because the bottle gushed (probably because it
was the bottle I had filled at entry time from a larger bottle). In
the Spirit-of-Belgium competition last fall, I was on one of the two
tripel tables. Our (1st round) 3rd place beer had an apparent
infection resulting in a vegetal aroma. The 2nd round bottle was
perfectly clean and placed first in the category.
=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 11:06:27 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji@hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Triple spelling/Asking the pros
After looking at various sources (bottles brought back from Belgium, a few
Michael Jackson and other books, etc.) I've come to the conclusion that
the spelling for "Triple", as referring to Trappist ales, is not yet
standardized. It appears in enough different forms -- tripel, triple,
trippel -- that they're probably all correct. I don't think I'll worry
about it any more. I'll just enjoy the beer.
Norm "Brewing on the banks of the Mighty St. Vrain" Pyle wrote:
> Jeff "I live in Fort Collins and rub it in on a regular basis" Benjamin
I didn't know that having "Fort Collins" in my signature constituted
"rubbing it in". :-). Anyway, we're very lucky here that most of the
local brewers (Jeff Lebesch of New Belgium, Doug O'Dell, Sandy at HC
Berger) are just homebrewers gone amok. They are all happy to talk to you
about brewing. Doug O'Dell used to be seen at the Moutain Tap Tavern
regularly, and if he had a few pints in him, he'd talk your ear off.
Which bring up a point: if you live in a town where there's a brewery,
or are passing through, or even taking a tour of a megabrewery, don't be
afraid to ask the bartender or tour guide lots of questions, even if
they're beginner's questions. You'd be suprised at the positive
response you often get once they see you're truly interested. Hit them
up after the tour, or ask if one of the brewers is around. I've gotten
great info/advice/impromptu tours at places as diverse as the locals in
Ft Collins, Olde Town brewing in Gaithersburg MD, Celis and Waterloo in
Austin, and Cantillon in Brussels just by speaking up.
One caveat, though: don't push too hard on sensitive areas like recipes
and special techniques. Although they may be happy to help a beginning
brewer, they are involved in business and can't give away all their
secrets. I know y'all want recipes, but them's pro-pri-e-tary, folks.
Doug O'Dell used to tell each person who asked about 90 Shilling ale one
or two pieces of the recipe, but different pieces. So if you got all
those people in a room together, they could reproduce the recipe
exactly. I don't think they ever got together, though.
- --
Jeff Benjamin benji@fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co. Fort Collins, Colorado
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
- T.S. Eliot
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 10:51:02 MST
From: jeff@neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Power Sparge
I stumbled across a Zymurgy from last summer that I had never fully read
the other day, and started looking it over. (I know there's a growing
discontent with Z and the AHA in general, and a growing voice for B.T.,
but Zymurgy still supplies me with useful things). In their 'Gadgets'
column, they had a description on building a power sparger. The concept
uses two corny kegs. One you temporarily modify as follows: the gas-in
fitting is adapted to a spray attachment; the Liquid-out dip tube is
connected to a copper manifold made of 2" copper tubing with slots cut in
it that sits on the bottom of the keg. You fill one keg with sparge water and
connect it to the modified keg with high pressure tubing. The grain goes
into the modified keg, connect the CO2 to the sparge keg, and open it all
up. As far as reciculation goes, they suggest waiting until the sparge
runs clear, closing the faucet, depressurizing the first keg, and adding the
cloudy wort to the sparge water. I assume this is to prevent opening the
'Lauter-Keg' and disturbing the grain bed.
How does this system sound? On the plus side, it seems very self-contained
and easy to use. It also seems you could avoid stuck sparges, by
increasing pressure if your sparge starts to approach a trickle. It would also
eliminate me having to put a barstool and 4 Denver Area Phone books on our
countertop to get the gravity sparge flowing fast enough. What are the
downsides to such a system?
- -- Jeff Stampes -- NeoCAD, Inc. -- Boulder, CO -- jeff@neocad.com --
- -- Ultimate Frisbee...It's not just for dogs anymore. --
- -- Any fool can make bread out of grain...God intended it for beer! --
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 10:45:31 MST
From: Norman Pyle (npyle) <npyle@hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: Rants/Wine yeast
P.G. Babcock, in an admitted "rant and rave" mode, wrote:
>Another case in point: Garetz's 'Using Hops'. When it first came out, it was
>considered God's gift to hop-heads. Now, not enough can be said about how
By whom? In my circles it was considered another source of information, but
ALL information is to be questioned. We'd all still be spraying DDT in our
yards, all around the children, if someone hadn't questioned it.
>poorly Garetz researched his material, and how <Expletive deleted> up he is.
>Turns out it was just his opinion; and now someone else's (Rager's) opinion is
>(back) en vogue. Sorry. I'm a little too technically oriented to accept that
I agree that in homebrewing, as in general, fads come and go. OTOH, I don't
think Rager's article was ever "out of vogue". Some of his numbers have been
questioned, and some REFERENCES WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE, but his Hop Bitterness
article has stood the test of time. It is and always has been, a good
starting point.
>kind of crap from a set of demi-professional organizations. These are the same
>organizations that want to judge the appropriateness of our choice of brewing
>ingredients and techniques to a set of stylistic parameters - which now appear
I think you're giving too much credit to the "organizatons". I don't think
enough is known in many areas of homebrewing for the AHA, etc. to be
endorsing certain calculations. Those people can't find their way to work
some days, how do you expect them to know whether or not a certain formula,
based on empirical data, or based on book research, or whatever, is valid?
>to be unknowns. Apparently, they don't know their <Expletive deleted> from
>holes in the ground if these ongoing arguments are any indication. Starting
No comment on that. I just don't think you're going to find exact
information in many areas of homebrewing. The number one reason is that the
information just isn't there yet. There are folks working to improve this
situation, believe me (Glenn Tinseth and George Fix come to mind), but it
takes time. The recent surge in homebrewing has caused more interest in the
nitty-gritty details, and only recently has some of that work begun. Another
reason this information isn't available is because it is easier for the AoB
folks to print what they have rather than fund real research, etc. The big
brewers (A-B, Coors, etc.) probably hold some of the information you seek,
but it is difficult, if not impossible, to extrapolate from their industrial
systems to somebody's garage.
>Brew On! -P.G. Babcock
Will do.
**
Ian the camel writes:
>I want to stray from champagne yeast because it might rob the treacle of
>its flavor. The local brew store suggested blue lalvin yeast in an apple
I want to comment on this, because it doesn't make sense to me, at least not
completely. I think that many people believe wine yeast is very attentuative
of the large sugars in wort. It may or may not be true, I don't know, but I
think it deserves discussion. This idea almost certainly comes from the fact
that still and sparkling wines are quite attenuated, when compared to beer.
But, consider what a typical wine yeast has to work with: grape juice, or
really any fruit juice. I don't the real makeup of fruit juices, but I
suspect you won't find any starches, dextrins, and large sugars. I suspect
you'd find a lot of small, fermentable sugars, which any self-respecting
yeast could do a number on. These (wine) yeasts have it easy, but what they
have over beer yeasts is alcohol tolerance, so they continue to ferment the
must down to a low gravity.
Now, consider a high-gravity beer which presumably has a fair amount of
dextrins, etc. After it has fermented down quite a bit, I assume that many
of the desirable esters (and other by-products) have been produced. Adding a
wine/champagne yeast at this point gives you an alcohol-tolerant little
worker, but I wouldn't expect it to make your beer taste like a dry wine. I
have brewed a total of 1 high-gravity beers, so I'm obviously just doing some
guessing here. On that one, I finished it with a wine yeast and now have a
wonderful, stable, barley-wine that tastes and acts like barley-wine. It has
not lost any of its beer character due to the wine yeast. May not be
traditional, but it is practical. Comments?
**
Regarding automated RIMS, maybe I'm just jealous that I don't have the
time/money/etc. to do one myself ;-)...
Cheers,
Norm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 13:43:16 EST
From: dipalma@sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: First All-Grain
Hi All,
In HBD #1655, Thomas Aylesworth writes about his first all grain batch.
>Anyway, my questions are:
> - Water treatment: I merely boiled all the water (10 gallons) the
> night before. I guess this is one of the next areas I should work
> on. Can someone point me to a good book or article(s) that describe
> this? Miller goes into this somewhat, but not a great deal.
"Brewing Lager Beer", by Greg Noonan, has an excellent chapter on water
chemistry. Pre-boiling the mash and sparge water won't *hurt* anything,
though you may find it's not necessary. I do recommend that you obtain a
water analysis before treating your water with anything.
>- Protein rest: From what I have read (mostly books and articles by
> Miller), the protein rest is necessary if using "high-protein" grains,
> such as wheat and oats. It should not be done if using British Pale
> Ale Malt. Beyond that, he seems to waver, seeming to say that it is
> a good idea anyway, but not necessary. Does this sound right?
British pale malt is a highly modified European malt, much of the protein
has already been degraded by the malting process. It is not necessary
to do a protein rest when using such malt. In fact, it has been shown
that excessive protein degradation can reduce body and head retention.
> Also,
> what, exactly, is meant by "high-protein". My homebrew shop labels
> the protein content of all the grains they sell on the bag - what
> numbers should I be looking for to tell me that I should do a protein
> rest. I am planning on doing a basic pale ale next, using mostly
> Klages and some Crystal malt. Should I bother doing a protein rest?
Protein content is stated as a percentage on the malt spec sheet, not on
the bag. Your supplier should be able to get a copy of the malt spec sheet.
A typical analysis will show that highly modified European malts such as
DWC Belgian malts or British pale malt average about 10% protein content,
malts grown in North America, such as Klages, average around 12%-13%.
A good rule of thumb is that highly modified European malts will not require
a protein rest, domestic malts will. I've read that the widespread use of
nitrogen-based fertilizers in North America is responsible for the higher
protein content of domestic malts.
My own experiences with Klages was that it converted readily with a single
infusion mash, but the resulting beers had a serious chill haze problem.
If I were to use Klages again, I'd use a temperature step mash that included
a protein rest.
> - Sparge water: From a few posts here, it doesn't sound like the fact
> that my sparge water was a little hotter than it should have been is
> necessarily bad. True or not?
This is one of the more forgiving aspects of the process, though you can
still get into trouble if you ignore it. The key point here is grain bed
temperature, not so much sparge water temp. While the two are clearly
related, *everybody's* system loses some heat in the lauter tun. If the
grain bed gets over 170F, you run the risk of increased tannin extraction.
If the grain bed gets over 190F, granules of insoluble starch will burst and
leach unconverted starch into the wort. OTOH, if your sparge water is too
cold, extraction efficiency suffers and the risk of a stuck sparge increases.
For my system, I keep the sparge water around 170F, the temp at the top of
the grain bed is ~155F-160F. This seems to be a happy compromise between too
hot and too cold, I get 32-33 pts/#/gal with single infusion mashing, and
have only once had the brewer's nightmare of a stuck sparge. That unhappy
occasion was while brewing a weizen with too much wheat malt, ground way
too fine.
>Also, how big a problem is it that I
>didn't acidify the sparge water? Miller claims that both of these
>problems can lead to extracting unwanted tannins from the grain husks -
It depends on your water. If it's reasonably soft and pH neutral, the pH
in your lauter tun will not rise much during the sparge. Provided the
pH in the tun does not rise much over 6.0, tannin extraction should not be
much of a problem. If you have water like mine, hard and with a pH of over
8.0, acidification of sparge water is necessary. Left untreated, the pH
in my tun would quickly rise to > 6.0 while there were still significant
sugars left. What I do is use acidblend to acidify to 5.7 - 5.8, ensuring
that the pH stays under 6.0 for the duration of the sparge.
>- Sparge: My sparge only lasted about 25 minutes. Numbers I've seen
> here before seem to be much longer than this. Should I slow down the
> rate, or does it not matter?
This is another aspect of the process that seems to allow considerable
leeway. In general, sparging faster will result in diminished extraction,
though I've sparged batches of this size in anywhere from 30 - 60 minutes,
without noticing any huge difference in extraction. If you got 30 pts/#/gal
with a 25 minute sparge, you don't need to change the procedure much.
> - Efficiency: At what point exactly is this measured? After the boil,
Ah well, this is something of a religious issue around here. FWIW, I've
always considered extraction efficiency to be a measure of how well the
mashing and lautering procedures are working, so I take this measurement
after the sparge. This allows me to extrapolate the final volume at which
the desired OG will be hit, and make minor adjustments to hopping levels
accordingly. Others believe in taking the measurement after the boil, as you
did. Whatever method you choose, the important thing is that you find the
extraction that your system consistently delivers, and use that number as
a guide in designing and replicating recipes.
>Well, sorry for such a long post and for rehashing questions
IMHO, posts like these that describe initial all grain brewing experiences
are very useful, as there must be a lot of interested people reading who are
considering trying their hand. Hopefully, these discussions help de-mystify
the process, and encourage these brewers to take the plunge.
Cheers,
Jim dipalma@sky.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 06:40:30 +1100 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper@mq.edu.au>
Subject: Cask & barrel ideality, isinglass, judging issues
Dear Friends, a few comments on today's digest.
Gilad Barak outlines the physical chemistry (or is that chemical physics?)
of dispensing from a cask or barrel, pointing out the applications of
Dalton's and Henry's Law. All perfectly true; but I would submit that
most homebrewers' casks or barrels are far from being perfectly closed
systems. When I used a pressure barrel in the UK, I made every
conceivable effort to keep O2 out of the barrel, by purging with the CO2
injector while I was affixing the top and goosing it periodically as well.
Nevertheless, in every single instance of non-rapid consumption (i.e. beer
surviving longer than a couple weeks), once about 3/4 of the beer was
gone, it began to taste strongly of oxidation--cardboardy, sherry-like.
As my brewpal Ken Willing says, "That's all very well in practice; but
will it work in *theory*?" :-}
Jim Cave describes the preparation of isinglass. Surely it is available
as a pre-made gel? Even if it is more expensive that way (as it
undoubtedly would be) it would be worth it. Again, my only use of it was
while in the UK, and I bought couple-hundred ml bottles of premade gel,
which was enough for about 3 batches if memory serves. One simply
withdrew a half-cup or so of the beer to be fined (I always did it in
secondary), added isinglass *slowly* so that mixing would be thorough, and
then put this back into the beer. I would usually rock the secondary back
and forth to mix. 3-4 days later the beer was usually pretty clear.
Pat Babcock takes Lee Bussy (no "e" in there) to task for asking that
detailed discussion of the AHA/BJCP split take place in the Judgenet
digest. I don't think Lee is guilty of the arrogance Pat accuses him
of. I'm sure he doesn't need me to come to his defense, but I think his
post was entirely reasonable. OTOH, as Pat and another poster (sorry)
mention, brewers not interested enough in judging issues to subscribe to
the judgenet should be kept abreast of at least the basic facts. So at
the risk of offending all concerned in an attempt to be diplomatic, I'd
say that Pat and Lee are both right. I'm sure the HBD can be updated on
the situation every week or two in a brief way, without a big hashing out
of the whole thing, which frankly *does* belong on Judgenet. HBD space is
precious, and we have all seen threads that refuse to die despite their
irrelevance. I don't think Lee or anyone else is trying to control who
gets to read what where.
Cheers and Happy Valentine's Day, Dave in Sydney
- --
"Life's a bitch, but at least there's homebrew" ---Norm Pyle
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper@mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
....I'm not from here, I just live here....
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:43:44 -0500
From: Weirup@aol.com
Subject: Gott cooler/all-grain setup
Please bear with me on this, my first post to this digest. I have gotten
plenty of information off this forum and I appreciate it.
I actually have a request. I have been getting more into making the move to
all-grain brewing and I am in the process of getting together equipment. I
want to do my mashing and lautering in a 10 gal. Gott cooler that I already
have. I know that many people use this system and I have sort of seen one in
use. But I'm not exactly sure on how to set this up. If anyone could e-mail
me information about this setup I would very much appreciate it. I also have
seen some bandwidth about use steam to heat the cooler for mashing and I
would like some info on this if anyone has it. Any help at all would be
appreciated.
E-mail can be sent to either address below.
TIA!
Christopher Weirup
cerevis@panix.com
or
Weirup@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 14:20:55 cst
From: billj@mails.imed.com
Subject: Seattle Area Brew Clubs?
Greetings Fellow HBD'ers
A friend wants to start brewing in the Seattle area but there is only so much
that I can help him with over the phone. I need to get him connected with
experienced brewers in his area. Could someone within about 30 min. drive of
Redmond Wa. contact me via email with brew club info (meeting dates, locations,
typical agenda, cost, etc) that I can forward to my friend.
TIA
Bill Joy
billj@mails.imed.com
------------------------------
Date: 13 Feb 95 14:12:00 -0600
From: korz@iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: 2-row or not 2-row?/aeration in 2ndary
Michael writes:
>Is there a great difference in the size of the kernels or some obvious
>way to tell 2- from 6-row?
The size of both can vary quite a bit, so although 6-row is generally a bit
smaller than 2-row, it's sometimes hard to tell. One way to distinguish
them is that all 2-row malt kernels are "straight" whereas 6-row kernels
have a slight "twist" to them (a slight spiral twist). I hope this is
clear -- I'm not sure how to explain it better.
***
Patrick writes:
>-=> In HBD #1654, Cap'n Kirk asks about aeration during fermentation (that's
> effectively what dropping the beer is, right?)...
>
>Oxidation of the beer, and the associated 'off' flavors, are the traditional
>concerns (in the U.S, anyway). This is not intended as a flame against Brian;
>just a simple statement!
Yes, but the off flavours assocated with oxidized *finished* beer are
primarily aldehydes produced from the oxidation of alcohols and "wet
cardboard" aromas (the true source of which I don't know). It is important
to note that what Brian wrote originally mentioned that this aeration during
transfer occurred only after (if I recall correctly) 2 or 3 days in the
primary, while fermentation is still going on. Aeration during fermentation
will cause elevated diacetyl production, but will not necessarily ruin the
beer. Anyone who has been to the Tadcaster Brewery in Tadcaster, Yorkshire
(Samuel Smiths), will never ever again doubt that great beer can be made
despite aeration during fermentation. You see... the yeast strain that they
use there is so incredibly flocculent that they must use mechanical means
to get the yeast back into suspension. To do this, they use pumps and
sprayheads to pump beer from the bottom of the tank and spray it onto the
top of the open fermenter, generating lots of foam and definately aerating
the (unfinished) beer. Since Samuel Smiths is widely available in the US,
you can taste for yourself that this method does make a fine brew. Note
the diacetyl...
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:30:03 -0600
From: umbollma@mira.cc.umanitoba.ca (P. Bollman)
Subject: need help saving a batch!!
2 weeks ago I strated a batch of Elbro Nerkte Brown Ale (pg 195 of the new
complete joy of home brewing). When we put it in the carboy using closed
fermentation, the sg was 1.020. We followed the recipe and added the
optional gypsum. The next day is was foaming and looked normal. After a
week, we racked it over and the sg was still 1.020 and it had a very tart
taste to it. I do not know what went wrong with the brewing, it has been 2
weeks since it was started now and it is in a sealed carboy, is there anyway
to save this batck of beer? Could you please e-mail my at
(umbollma@cc.umanitoba.ca) if you have an suggestions as to what might have
gone wrong, and if there is anyway to correct it. Thank you !!
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. Bollman
umbollma@cc.umanitoba.ca
University of Manitoba Engineering
ap634@freenet.carleton.ca
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:50:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Cary Kiest <kiestc@PEAK.ORG>
Subject: RIMS Temperature Control
As part of the continuing thread on RIMS Temperature Control, Jeff Berton
writes (1656):
> Also, rather than using a dimmer switch, has anyone tried
> to control their electric heaters using one of those variable
> time-delay solid state relays?
I haven't done this with a RIMS, but have employed the basic concept in
industrial control applications. The objective is to achieve smooth
temperature control using only discrete output devices (such as a
time-delay relay). This is possible with electric heating elements
because of their sluggish output response to changes in electrical energy
input.
To do this in software, I have used the following approach. Using
classical PID control (fuzzy logic would work well also), generate an
analog output value that represents the amount of energy you would feed
to the heater. This value is then modified and directed toward a
discrete on/off relay through a simple analog-to-duty-cycle conversion.
For example, define a cycle period of say 10 seconds and set the ratio of
heater on to off time equal to your output value. So if your analog
output suggests a heater setting of 40%, you would cycle the element on
for 4 seconds and then off for 6 seconds. An 80% output would cycle the
element on for 8 seconds and then off for 2 seconds.
Whether you do this with computer control or time-delay relays, you will
want to keep the cycle period fairly short (10 seconds is probably a good
value) so that the element temperature remains stable. Also, be sure to
check the current switching capacity of your relay before you place a
large load on it - certain solid state relays have been known to fail in
the "on" state. Good luck!
Regards, Cary.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:13:46 +0200 (EET)
From: Ilkka Sysil{ <isysila@clinet.fi>
Subject: Re: RIMS-temperature control
> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 6:54:11 EST
> From: Evan Kraus <ejk@bselab.bls.com>
> Subject: RIMS Temperature Control
>
> With all the talk of AI or PID control for say a RIMS system by a PC.
> Has anyone written any code to say read an A to D device such as that
> shown in the Jan/Feb issue of BT and take those readings and say pulse an
> electronic relay or triac and keep the mash temp within a desired range
> and at selected times raise said temp up to complete a mashing schedule ?
In my opinion the fitting and handy tool for this purpose is *Visual
Basic* or *Visual C* programming environment which runs under Windows.
Apart from pc, which acts both as your software development environment
and RIMS-control computer you need S/P converter between your serial pc-world
and parallel RIMS-world. Open collector-drivers or whatsoever would do
the job of driving relays and other power electronics pertaining to the
RIMS-system in question. The sensor boundary data could be read either
on continuous polling basis or interruption basis.
Malty brewing
Ilkka Sysila, Helsinki Finland
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:19:08 -0500
From: Pulsifer@aol.com
Subject: Water Chemistry
I guess that I was not explicit enough with my description. I was really
asking about extract only. I would like to improve my extract techniques a
little more before I move on to partial mash. Is there any particular facet
of water chemistry that is critical to extract brewing? How is hop
utilization affected? What could cause extraction of extra tannins from
crystal malt (high pH)?
The general consensus is the chloramine is best taken care of with a
charcoal filter which would also remove chlorine. Most people suggested the
ones with silver (bacteracide?). I will probably try some with distilled
water and compare them with tap water batches.
Dean A. Pulsifer -- Pulsifer@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 20:05:46 -0500
From: rich@lenihan.iii.net (Rich Lenihan)
Subject: Stout / Gott / ESB update
I've made a few pretty good stouts from all grain but one thing still eludes
me. I can't seem to get my stouts dark enough. I generally use 1 lb of
roasted barley for a 5 gallon batch. This results in a pretty dark beer,
but it's not completely opaque. When compared to bottled Guinness, for
example, it is noticeably lighter. What can I do? I hesitate to use more
roast barley else the beer will be too harsh. I also hesitate to use other
colored malts because I don't want to change the flavor too much for my dry
stouts. I'm using 500L roast barley. I'm also boiling the wort for 60
minutes. Anything else I should try? The first thing that jumps to mind is
an even darker roasted barley (800L?). I've heard such a malt exists but I
don't have a source for it.
- --------
Having recently converted to using a Gott cooler with a Phil's Phalse Bottom
as a mash/lauter tun, I've followed with interest recent discussions
regarding ways to inject steam heat into the system. So far (2 batches)
I've had pretty good results with my Gott. My extraction rates have
improved by about 10% over my old setup (grainbag in a bucket). I also have
to recirculate less to get clear running wort. YMMV. Anyway, one future
modification I might make would be to use the Phil's Phalse Bottom as a
steam manifold, basically connecting my steam generator (tea kettle,
pressure cooker, whatever) to the existing output tube which is connected
via copper pipe to the Phil's Phalse Bottom. The steam would then percolate
up through the mash bed (although I would probably need to stir the mash bed
a bit to ensure even heat distribution). To aid heat reflection, and to
protect my precious Gott, I'd line the bottom of the cooler with aluminum
foil. This is what I'm thinking. Anyone see any flaws with this design?
- --------
ESB update: A short while back I posted requesting help with Wyeast 1068
(ESB) strain. The feedback I got was this: 1. If you want to get the
yeast of to a quick start (under 36 hours), use as much yeast as possible on
the order of one ounce of slurry per gallon of wort. One guy noted good
results when re-pitching with the yeast cake from a previous batch. 2. If
you want to get complete fermentation, aerate the hell out of the wort. 3.
The yeast is highly flocculent and needs to be "roused" occasionally (1 or 2
times per day) to keep it working.
So far, I've tried 2 and 3 but not 1. My experience so far suggests that 2
works but 3 does not. Rousing the yeast is probably unnecessary if you have
enough yeast and enough oxygen. I know from experience that it *won't* help
if you don't. I'll be trying 1 (re-using the yeast cake) this weekend and
I'll report back with a full report in a few weeks.
Thanks again,
-Rich
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:46:47 -0500
From: BrewBeerd@aol.com
Subject: RE:Gravity-tapping a cornelius..
In HBD #1656...
-=> Gilad Barak comments on gravity tapping a cornelius keg...
Part of gravity tapping entails opening the gas in line and (usually) laying
the keg on its side. This way it is, in fact, gravity that drives the system,
as opposed to CO2. This is also why the aeration/oxidation concerns were
voiced.
For those who want to use this technique, I would suggest tapping the gas
inlet, and opening the beverage outlet. Keep the inlet at the 6:00 position,
and slightly (inch or two) elevate the opposite end of the keg. This way, the
air entering the keg does so through the beverage siphon tube which should be
out of the beer in this configuration (if not initially, it will be after
drawing a pint or two!). This helps reduce the rate of oxidation by preventing
the air from bubbling in through the beer.
Another method I've employed to help reduce oxidation in gravity tapping is
the following: Fill a second keg with CO2 (purge all the air out. It is best
to do so through the beverage out fitting with the keg bung in place and the
pressure-relief valve locked open.). Connect a line from the beverage out
fitting of the CO2-filled keg to the beverage out fitting of the beer-filled
keg. Open the gas in fitting or pressure relief valve of the CO2 keg, and tap
the gas out fitting of the beer keg in the manner described above. Since CO2
is heavier than air, your gravity system will now draw CO2 from the second
keg instead of air. This method was successful in keeping a CAMRA-style ale
fresh tasting for the month it took to consume it <G>. It did seem a little
'slower' at the tap than a straight-gut gravity tap, though.
Hope this helps someone!
Live and let brew...
P.G. Babcock
President, Chief Taste-Tester, and Consumer Numero Uno
Drinkur Purdee pico Brewery
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1658, 02/15/95
*************************************
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