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HOMEBREW Digest #1468
This file received at Sierra.Stanford.EDU 94/07/06 00:28:14
HOMEBREW Digest #1468 Wed 06 July 1994
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
St. Pats (Gregg Tennefoss)
A-B ads (R. Keith Frank)
When repling ying , reply to HBD, not privately (RAYMUN)
Beaudelot's (Jim Busch)
starting to culture yeast questions (Todd S. Taylor x4613)
Multiple Hop Additions? Wha's with that? (Spencer.W.Thomas)
Irradiated beer (Domenick Venezia)
Headspace/carbonation (Kelly Jones)
Temp-resistent containers ("Bill Knecht")
Dr. Lewis/Coors Weizen/Gott/Carapils/Caravienne/Kegs (npyle)
Stovetops, syrups (KWH)
How to Convert a Sanke Keg (Jack Skeels)
This and that (GONTAREK)
Q's: Bottling kegged beer. (Jack Skeels)
Darkness enveloped me..... (PSTOKELY)
Brown Sugar (how come you taste so good) (Tom Lyons)
Rubber-bottomed 1/2 bbl Kegs (John P. Curcio)
Brewer's Baby!! (Seth Crosby 8-6999)
carbonation vs. headspace ("Dave Suurballe")
RE: German Stein Lids (ALYON)
Re: Wort Priming (Bryan Dawe)
Re: CO2 inhibition of fermentation. (Erik A. Speckman)
Western Pub System (Kelly Jones)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:31:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: greggt@infi.net (Gregg Tennefoss)
Subject: St. Pats
Yes thread fans - yet another St. Pats post.
I have been useing St. Pats as my sole source of brewing supplies since last
fall. I have never purchased any kegs from them but have ordered lots of
brewing supplies, rhizomes and kegging parts.
The brewing supplies like crushed grain and yeast have alway arrived very
fresh and well packaged. The yeast, for instance, has always been within
one month of the date code. The crush on the grain is always good and their
prices are the lowest that I have found.
The kegging parts are always of good quality and the are actualy cheaper
than my local suppliers.
My orders from St. Pats always arrive in a week which is good considering
that I'm on the east coast of Va.
In all I've been very pleased with St. Pats and hope to see them continue
in the mail order business.
Just my 2 cap fulls
cheers
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:07:38 -0400
From: keithfrank@dow.com (R. Keith Frank)
Subject: A-B ads
Teddy Winstead, winstead%brauerei@cs.tulane.edu asks...
>Does anyone know if the AHA made a statement to Budweiser in regards
>to their Bud Light ad? I realize that there may be some conflict
>here, since the AHA is part of the Ass. of Brewer's, which undoubtedly
>includes the evil Bud ones, but does anyone else think that something
>should be said?
I agree that something should be said. For those HBDer's who haven't
heard the A-B ad in question, allow me to briefly outline it. It basically
goes as follows:
1st guy says, "Hey, try this pumpernickel stout. I brewed it myself."
2nd guy says, "What's that chunk floating in there?"
1st guy says, "Oh just try it. I saved this last bottle just for you."
2nd guy says, "Oh that's ok, I'll just have this Bud Light. You drink
the stout."
The commercial leaves you with the impression that both guys want the
Bud Light.
I recently heard this on a Houston radio station. I wrote a letter to
August Busch III in which I told him that it pleased me that we humble
homebrewers were perceived as such a threat that A-B felt they had to
spend their advertising dollars attacking us. I haven't received a reply
and really don't look for one.
I also wrote a short skit for a local radio station. 101 KLOL in Houston
does a skit every weekday morning @7:25am called Uncle Waldo. They solicit
scripts over the air and there are established characters you must use in
the skits. I submitted this one.
* Uncle Waldo, Homebrewer type person. *
________________________________________________________________________
* Act 1, Scene 1 *
Uncle Waldo is sitting back listening to his stereo, enjoying a nice
frosty mug of his latest batch of homebrew.
* Act 1, Scene 2 *
Big Bruno shows up and asks... "Hey Uncle Waldo, what's that you're
drinking?"
UW: "Oh, this is a mug of my latest batch of homebrewed beer. Would
you like to try one?"
BB: "Oh no thanks. I'm very loyal to my beer, Buttwiper. You would'nt
happen to have a Buttwiper would you ? There's nothing more refreshing
than an ice cold Buttwiper."
UW: "Well no, but I've got something that TASTES JUST LIKE IT. Let me
get you a mug."
UW leaves the room.
* Act 2, Scene 1 *
UW returns with a frosted mug of golden, yellow liquid for BB.
UW: "There you are Big Bruno."
BB takes a sip, then says... "Wow, that's great! That tastes just
like my Buttwiper!"
BB gulps the rest of the mug and smacks his lips and says... "You
would'nt happen to have another one of those would you Uncle Waldo?
I can't believe how much it tastes just like my good ol' Buttwiper!
You actually made that yourself ?"
UW: "Yeah, I sure did."
BB: "What do you call it ?"
UW: "Urine-ator."
BB: "Urine-ator ?"
UW: "Yeah, let me drink a couple more of my homebrews and I'll have
the head pressure to *dispense* another pint for you."
_____________________________________________________________________
Mark DeWeese
President, Brew Bayou
Brazosport Area Homebrewers Club
c/o keithfrank@dow.com
"O parlez-nous a` boire, non pas de mariage..."
From a well know tune of the Balfa Brother's repertoire.
**********************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 1994 10:04:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: RAYMUN@delphi.com
Subject: When repling ying , reply to HBD, not privately
Hi all, I've been following the HBD for a while now and have noticed
something that upsets me. I have noticed that when people ask
questions about brewing or anything that relates to brewing in that
matter "YOU" people reply to that message "PRIVATELY".
PRIVATELY meaning you send the reply to the guy who asked the
question! WHY NOT SEND THE ANSWER TO HBD!!!???? Other people might
want to know the answer too, you know! Me being one of them.
HBD is becoming a Questions only newsletter, where only about 15-25% of
the questions are answered in a reply posted directly to HBD.
WHY!????????? I use Threads to search back issues of HBD for answers to
some questions related to brewing I might have, and when I search all
I find mostly is a question by someone asking the same question and
can never find an answer for because it was privately emailed to
the guy asking the question.
I have ALL 1460+ issues of HBD so i'm not missing a thing.
I'm sure some people out there want to FLAME ME or RAG on me, GO RIGHT
AHEAD! I'm sure I'm not the only guy who feels this way, and in fact
I'm doing you all a favor by speaking up like this. It can only
make future issues of HBD better by letting us all in on the answers!
Raymun@delphi.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 10:16:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch@daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Beaudelot's
> I know I've read it somewhere, but I can't find it again.... Can
> anyone tell me about a Bodolet (sp?) cooler. I found a reference to
> one in a very strange room in an *old* brewery around here.
>
Im sure I misspelled this, but it is a copper cooler. Chilled
water is run through the inside of the piping, while hot wort
is run over the outside, falling down the sides and collected
in a trough in the bottom. Aeriation occurs as the wort is
'spilled' over the outside coils. Historically, these were used
often, and can still be found in some Belgian breweries, like
DeDolle, and one of these was also used in the now defunct
Vernon Valley Brewery, in New Jersey.
In practice, the hot, bitter wort is run into a coolship. After
the hot trub settles, the 150ish+ (F) wort is then run over the
Beaudelot cooler and on to another chiller, or directly into the
fermenter. Liefmans used to use enormous versions of these, now
they only use the large copper fermenters as the wort production
and cooling is performed at The Riva brewery.
Best,
Jim Busch
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 10:13:43 EDT
From: taylor@e5sf.hweng.syr.ge.com (Todd S. Taylor x4613)
Subject: starting to culture yeast questions
I know this subject has gone around before here but I decided to try and
culture my own yeast so I have some questions about it:
1. How is it done?
2. Can I buy a starter from my homebrew shop? or where do I get a starter?
3. How much do I use for fermenting?
4. Does the liquid yeast make the beer taste better?
Any information would be appreicated, Thanks ahead of time Todd...
Sorry but when the subject came up before in the digest I was not
interested enough to capture it all...............
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 10:25:43 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas@med.umich.edu
Subject: Multiple Hop Additions? Wha's with that?
Karl Elvis MacRae writes:
> Does it produce some sort of complex layering of hop flavor and
> bouquet?
Yes. Hops boiled for longer than 30 minutes contribute mostly
bittering. From 10-30 minutes, mostly flavor & some bitterness. Less
than 10, mostly aroma, and very little bitterness. Dry hopping gives
a unique aromatic character from the fresh hops that is not attainable
any other way.
Think about it this way: the aromatic compounds must be volatile
(easily evaporate) for you to smell them. Thus, boiling them will
drive them off. Compounds that contribute to flavor are not as
volatile, since they must only travel from your mouth up the back of
your nose, and do so in a warm environment. They take longer to boil
away. The bittering compounds don't evaporate, but are created by
boiling from non-bitter compounds in the hops (technically, alpha
acids (which are not bitter) in the hops are isomerized into iso-alpha
acids (which are bitter)).
Also heat will change some of the aromatic & flavor compounds, so the
aroma you get from a late addition of hops can be significantly
different from the aroma from dry-hopping.
=Spencer in Ann Arbor, Michigan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 07:42:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia@zgi.com>
Subject: Irradiated beer
From: PNEUMAND@delphi.com Date: Sat, 02 Jul 1994 19:02:29 -0400 (EDT)
>RE: Heineken Skunkiness.
>Heinekin irradiates their beer to destroy bacteria in their water supply.
>That is why the beer has that flavor. (Plus a little from the water
>itself)
What is your source for this information? How do you know Heinekin
irradiates its beer, and if it does how do you know it is the source
of the skunky flavor?
Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia@zgi.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 08:49:24 -0600
From: Kelly Jones <k-jones@ee.utah.edu>
Subject: Headspace/carbonation
Subject: Carbonation
In HBD #1467, as a response to one of my posts, Robert Reed lists
several possible causes of overcarbonation.
Sorry if I was unclear, but I was referring specifically to the
phenomena of overcarbonation as a result of excess or insufficient
headspace. Obviously, there are many other easily explainable causes
of overcarbonation, as Robert pointed out.
Kelly
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:42:03 -0700
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271@appenine.ca.boeing.com>
Subject: This bud malt's for you
Jack Dawson asks about some free malt that he received from
a friend, source reported to be Great Wesetern Maltings product.
Could Be!
In march, my homebrewing club took a tour of the GWM plant in
Vancouver, WA. I learned a lot about a) beer malt, and b) large
processing plants. Persuant to this discussion, GW is AB's largest
supplier, and AB is GW's largest customer. The grain is WELL modified,
and is sold to AB by the boxcar. If you have GW malt that is
individulally bagged, then it has gone through another set of hands,
as GW is not in the business of fooling around with bagged malt.
The trains come in, the trains go out.... And the swill just
keeps on comming...
Actually, I preferr Miller Psudo-Draft among the mega breweries.
But my homebrew is still the best!
Rich Webb
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:54:06 -0700
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271@appenine.ca.boeing.com>
Subject: Matching styles
Raymun Delphi asks about matching styles to ingredients. I was going to answer
privately, seeing as how I just diatribed against AB (easy target!), but
he asked to broadcast, so here's my inflated 2 pence.
Beer making is more than just matching ingredients. It's also about process.
Malt is thought of as two types: Pale Ale or Pale malt, and Lager malt. The
differences between these two types is the degree of modification, a
measure of the growth of the seed in malting. In your mash tun, if the
processing is right, the result at the kettle is the same. If the mash
schedule and processing allows it, then the sugar from PA malt in your
kettle will be indistinguishible from sugar from L malt. AB uses well
modified malt to make its lager product. Go figure. Take any malt.
Mash it. If you have the proper gravity, you can make pils, pale ale,
IPA, whatever. If the mash is such that less fermentables are created,
which is to say more unfermentable dextrins are left, leading to more
body, then you have the base of a stout. Of course you'll have to add
something to make the color come out right, and there are roast barleys
to be added for a proper stoutish taste, but in my blasphemical way
of doing things, a pale ale is a good start when making a stout (or a
porter, or a kolsh, or whatever), modified by a) the malting/mashing
process, and b) the other stuff you throw in.
Wild stuff, I know, but the wierd thing is, it could be true!
happy brewing!
Rich Webb
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 11:13:53 CDT
From: "Bill Knecht" <knecht@mind.psych.umn.edu>
Subject: Temp-resistent containers
Could anyone tell me of a brand of wide-mouth plastic containers with lids
that would be able to handle boiling water? The method in my madness is to
make sterile ice cubes to cool my wort. The containers would need to be of
such configuration that I could pop out the cubes after they froze.
I suppose the ideal volume would be about 1/2 to 1 quart per "cube".
If these weren't available universally, please send me the mailing address
of the vendor, plus prices.
Private e-mail is probably best on this. Many thanks.
Bill Knecht
University of Minnesota
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 10:13:35 MDT
From: npyle@hp7013.ecae.stortek.com
Subject: Dr. Lewis/Coors Weizen/Gott/Carapils/Caravienne/Kegs
Re: Dr. Lewis, Mark O'Conner writes:
>1) He instructed us to first master the "pale beer" and use that as a base
>to create higher gravity and darker colored brews with adjuncts. He
This strikes me as absolutely backwards because flaws are oh-so-evident in
paler beers. Why would a beginning brewer want to brew something that will
probably be obviously flawed? I'd recommend something with some machismo, so
even if it isn't good, you can woof about how it is only for real men, etc.
etc. All seriousness aside, I'd recommend the opposite route than that of
Dr. Lewis.
**
Re: Spencer's review of Coors Weizen, I don't think it tastes like a standard
American swill, but it doesn't stand up to a good weizen, either. It will
certainly be overpriced, as are all of Coor's specialty products. The
"stout" on the label is there because it is above some mythical alcohol level
which is heretofore and henceforth called beer, i.e. legal crap. They use
this term on their Winterfest as well, but I can't recall if it is on their
spring "Eisbock".
**
Dan Hays asks:
>1. Is the 5 gallon cooler adequate, or do you outgrow it and wish you
> had bought the 10 gallon size?
I think a 7-8 gallon size is best, but a 10 gallon is fine. A 5 gallon will
limit you eventually.
>2. Is the cooler easy to retrofit with a spigot?
I don't have a Gott, but my Rubbermaid was as easy as removing the old spigot
and pushing a 1/2" Cu pipe through the grommet. Even with the ease of
installation of the Rubbermaid, I believe the Gott is better. It is designed
to handle hot liquids as well as cold, and won't warp as easily as others.
>3. False bottom or Phalse bottom? I've even read that a folding steamer
> basket works well. What do you think?
I recommend a manifold, either the slotted pipe type or the easymasher. They
are simple to make and easy to use.
**
Al Korzonas writes:
>Note that CaraPils is very high in moisture in terms of malts (twice as
>high as some malts by the same mfgr), so this effect is most profound
This might explain why the Carapils I milled this weekend actually caused my
Maytag-powered roller mill to bind up (a belt started slipping). The air is
very dry here in CO and I think the moist Carapils (DWC) dried and hardened.
When I got the mill going again, I fed it small amounts at a time. Some of
grain actually popped back out of the mill as it was being poured. It was
like milling rocks (well, actually more like hard red winter wheat).
**
Jim Busch writes about pale ales:
>Dextrin malt is useless, or at least not required. I love to use
>7-10% CaraVienna, it works fine in conjunction with other malts,
Tell that (the dextrin malt comment) to the people who brew the classic
American pale ale, Sierra Nevada. A recent trip to the local HB store
brought the following comment: "the 30L crystal is the same as CaraVienne".
Of course, the dextrin malt was labelled "Dextrin", the carapils was labelled
"Carapils", the munich was labelled "Munich", but the caravienne was labelled
"30L crystal". Hmmm.
**
Re: the great keg rental/purchase debate, I like this thread. Please
continue your discussion, as I'd like to see this concluded. Also, consider
this twist: a local liquor store (the largest around) "sells" empty kegs to
anyone who asks for them. In at least one instance they were told "you're
NOT going to get this back" and they didn't have a problem with it as long as
the deposit is paid. I know of several homebrewers who've gone there and
"bought" empty kegs from them. This certainly sounds like a "BFP" to me,
although it is clear the people working at this store don't realize the
implications of their actions.
Cheers,
Norm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 94 13:13
From: KWH@roadnet.ups.com (KWH)
Subject: Stovetops, syrups
Sometime during brewing last weekend, I scorched my stovetop beyond
recognition in the area between the two burners that my 33qt pot sets on.
I tried a few different cleaners on it - 409, softscrub, etc., but it
didn't budge. I looked through the index of old digests and got a few
suggestions, including using oven cleaner or baking soda. Does anybody
have any foolproof methods that could get me out of the dog house?
Secondly, I have tried the 4oz bottles of fruit flavorings that are in most
brewshops and been very disappointed in the results. The flavor is almost
nonexistent. I saw a bottle of blueberry pancake syrup in the grocery
store the other day, and I was wondering what it would be like in
beer/mead/wine. It has only natural ingredients, no preservatives, and
only costs $1.79 for 12ozs. This stuff has a BIG blueberry flavor and
aroma, and the price can't be beat. Any thoughts?
Any suggestions, etc. by private email would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Kirk Harralson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 12:20 EST
From: Jack Skeels <0004310587@mcimail.com>
Subject: How to Convert a Sanke Keg
Thanks to all who helped with advice in the various stages of my Big Keg
Project. The approx 14 gals of SNPA clone tasted wonderful and were enjoyed
by all, both homebrewers and non-.
A couple of people have asked direction for converting a Sanke Keg, and
while the way we did it certainly isn't the only way, IT WORKED PRETTY DARN
WELL. There were many responses, but the concensus was the approach that we
followed.
The only other one that I considered seriously was using a Plasma torch. I
don't own one, tho I do know how to use it (or did once upon a summer-job
time). If you know somebody who can do this for you it is probably the most
elegant approach. Properly adjusted, a plasma torch would do it as easily
as drawing your cut line, and leave a very nice bead on the cut that you
could buff out with some emery cloth.
Aside from the torch the other approaches seemed harder or even ridiculous,
as in: drill and hacksaw (uggggh!), a zillion 1/2" drill holes (clean that
edge up!), and a circular saw with a metal-cutting blade. The circular saw
idea seemed pretty feasible, but I respect the power of a circular saw when
it gets jammed, and didn't want to see what would happen with a material
less forgiving than wood.
As to how we did it, I'll try to give you a reasonably detailed summary....
0) Use these instructions at your own risk.
1) Get some earplugs, eye protection and gloves.
2) Equipment needed: 1 Milwuakee-brand Sawsall
1 End Grinder w/ 6" dia hard disk, approx 1/4" thick
4 Sawsall 18TPI Bimetal Blades (min.)
I recommend renting industrial-quality stuff. You will trash the bearings
on a sabre saw trying to cut 18 ga. SS. I paid about $22, and it was worth
it.
3) Do this work somewhere/sometime when nobody will notice or be bothered
by the Bat-Screaming-out-of-Hell kinds of noises that you (the saw really)
are about to make.
4) The basic plan: Cut the top off, leaving the handles behind.
5) The cutting plan: Ten cuts. Four parallel to the top seam, four that
go from the rim through top seam at about a 60 degr angle, and two to remove
the rest of the top.
I'll try some ASCII-art:
____________________________/____________\___________________________
__________________________/________________\_____________rim_________
/ \
/ /---------------\ \
/ ( handle-hole ) \
/ \_______________/ \
/ \
==========================================================seam=========
............./ \..............
The periods and slash lines are the cut lines for cuts 1-8
6) Preparation. No beer 'till afterwards.
a) Remove the valve from the top of the keg
b) Fill the keg about 1/2-way full of water (sound deadener)
c) Get somebody to help, this isn't a one man/person job
d) Relax, don't worry, DON'T have a homebrew :-)
7) First cuts -- the handles
a) lay out your cuts using a ruler, a carpenter's square and a
permanent marking pen. You will want to cut to about 1/8" below the top
seam (the seam that joins the top and the sides of the keg).
b) If you look at the top of the keg you will realize that the blade
will never get all of the way into the keg -- to get to the seam, you'll
have to angle the saw body towards the keg, reducing the blade's attack
angle on the top. You will however be able to cut into the top as you reach
the seam. You need to leave about a 1.5 inch cut in the top when you're
done with the cutting.
8) Second cuts -- the seam body.
a) Make a starter notch halfway between the handles, about 1/8"
below and parallel to the seam. Use the grinder like a circular saw to cut
the notch.
_______\___________________________________________________________/______
________\________________________________________rim______________/_______
\ /
(handle) \ / (handle)
\ /
============\===============================seam==============/============
\..blade cut.....(**grinder cut**)...blade cut../
b) Use the saw to cut out from the middle, below the seam, until you
reach the handle cuts.
9) The last two cuts -- removing the top
a) for the last two cuts you will be connecting the notches that you
left in the top of the keg during the "handle" cuts.
b) the hard part is that you need to make a arc-shaped cut to
connect the two notches. the way to do this is think of the cut is much
like turning a corner on a bicycle; you must lean the saw to the side that
you would like to turn to. This will effectively reduce the axial rotation
that the saw must do, just like banking into a turn reduces how much you
turn the handlebars. In this case you will lean the saw OVER the handle
that you are cutting around. try it, you'll like it.
10) Grinding the edges.
a) Clean up all of the edges by doing at least three passes, one at
a right angle to the metal (to flatten the cut), and one on each side at
about 20 degr to the stock.
b) AFTER you have done the three passes, THEN you can take your
gloves off and check for the less-sharp burrs that remain.
11) Beat the lid-tabs down.
a) Using a hammer (heavier the better) beat the leftover lid
material down into the keg to make a rounded sort of handle should you want
to grab it with your fingers pointing into the keg bottom.
12) Put the tools away, take the earplugs out, and RDWHAHB.
Good Luck,
Jack Skeels
JSKEELS@MCIMAIL.COM
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 14:59:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: GONTAREK@FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV
Subject: This and that
Greetings to everyone! Hope your Fourth was filled with good beers and
relaxation.
I will be in Madison, WI at the end of this week for a meeting, and
I would appreciate private email from anyone regarding fun bars/brewpubs/
microbreweries, etc. Thanks in advance.
Secondly, I am interested in buying fresh whole hops from a supplier,
and I have a few questions. I am told that it is a good idea to store unused
fresh, whole hops in a CO2-purged jar. How does one normally do this?
Also, I am used to recipies using hop pellets, and I'd like to know if
fresh, whole hops can be used ounce for ounce like pellets. I am eager to
try fresh hops.
I rented Michael Jackson's video "The Beer Hunter" this weekend.
I want his job! If anyone has access to this vid, it's pretty cool.
I can't wait to go to Europe to drink beer.
This past Saturday, my wife and I picked 12 pounds of blueberries
at a local farm. Of course, I spent a rainy Sunday making my annual
Summer Fruit Beer, this year a Bluebeery Ale. I'll let you all know how
it turns out, and I'll post the recipie if its any good.
Well, enough rambling. Happy brewing to you and yours.
Rick Gontarek
gontarek@ncifcrf.gov
PS- Gotta feel sorry for that poor guy Dave Draper. There's nothing that
can push a tolerant brewer's wife over the edge quicker than a boil-over!
Yes, I speak from experience.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 14:22 EST
From: Jack Skeels <0004310587@mcimail.com>
Subject: Q's: Bottling kegged beer.
Greetings!
I have a few questions for your collective wisdoms.
1) I have some beer left in a Sanke keg that I would like to bottle. It is
at 10-12 PSI. How do I bottle this? Do I add a little priming sugar, or
might I overcarbonate and then bottle?
2) Does anybody know where to get cheap used Corny Kegs in the LA area?
TIA,
Jack Skeels
JSKEELS@MCIMAIL.COM
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 15:22:07 EDT
From: PSTOKELY@ea.umd.edu
Subject: Darkness enveloped me.....
I was looking for a cute, useless gift for an anniversary (not mine),
when something caught my eye. A disturbing thing. I'm no H.P.
Lovecraft, but I will describe it as best I can.
It was a plastic sack with a pressure release cap towards the top and
a plastic spigot towards the bottom. It bore the word "Brewking" in
large letters and pictured a pleasingly heady mug of ale. It was
several moments before I realized what I beheld.
It was a start-up brewing kit. Four simple steps and you too can be
a homebrewer. 1) Add hot water through cap. 2) Shake bag to moisten
and dissolve spray malt and hop extract [already in bag!]. 3) Allow
to cool before adding yeast packet [included!]. 4) Wait 10 to 14 days
and start drinking [pressure release cap automatically keeps beer at
proper carbonation level].
I had trouble believing what I read. How could I have wasted all
those years reading Miller and Papazian and Fix? All those brewing
sessions that stretched into the night and further, all the careful
notekeeping! A darkness enveloped me, I heard and knew no more until
a smiling clerk roused me back to sensibility.
"Yeah, we sell a lot of those. Do you know someone who brews their
own beer? Only $39.95!"
To which I replied, as I always do, "You speak in strange whispers,
friend, are you not of The Body?"
Paul S. in College Park,Maryland
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:32:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: tlyons@netcom.com (Tom Lyons)
Subject: Brown Sugar (how come you taste so good)
Greetings, oh travelers on the fermentation superhighway!
I have been afforded the opportunity to receive a large amount of
brown sugar, as in several hundred pounds, for free.
Can anyone tell me if there is a reasonable use for massive
quantities of brown sugar? What would be the outcome of using
this product to constitute, say, 50% of the fermentables in
a batch of beer? What styles of beer might benefit from a
(smaller) dose of brown sugar in their recipe?
What about other uses? I can't eat enough oatmeal in my lifetime
to use that much brown sugar, but I was wondering, since
my inquiring mind wants to know, what would happen if
someone fermented out a bunch of brown sugar and then
distilled the resulting liquid? Of course, I would never
be tempted to do such a thing. Please let me know so that
I won't be tempted to try it on my own.
I'd offer this stuff out to other folks but I'm not sure that
the money it would cost to pack and ship it wouldn't be more
than you could buy it in the store for.
Thanks for replies, email is fine and I'll repost a summary
here (if anything interesting comes of it).
tlyons@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 94 16:23:58 -0400
From: John P. Curcio <jpc@philabs.Philips.COM>
Subject: Rubber-bottomed 1/2 bbl Kegs
I have the opportunity to obtain a 1/2 bbl keg with the intent of
using it as a brew kettle. My source has a keg with the rubber top
and bottom (similar to a Cornelius keg), which would make it necessary
to remove the bottom rubber. Has anyone done this?
I assume that I will have to fabricate some type of support for the
bottom, since the keg is probably not flat-bottomed under the rubber.
-JPC
-<=>- Just say NO! to Budmilloors... Support your local MICROBREWERY -<=>-
John P. Curcio (jpc@philabs.philips.com) (914) 945-6442, 6159
Philips Laboratories 345 Scarborough Road Briarcliff Manor, NY 10510
"If nothing beats a Bud, given the choice, I'd take the nothing..."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 15:45:25 +0600
From: crosbys@ugene1.abbott.com (Seth Crosby 8-6999)
Subject: Brewer's Baby!!
Happiest congratulations goes to Tim Fahner, long-time Homebrew Digest
correspondant and St. Louis home-brewers institution, on the pending addition to
his family.
Seth Crosby,
former collegue of the Big-guy
------------------------------
Date: 5 Jul 1994 14:09:35 -0700
From: "Dave Suurballe" <suurb@farallon.com>
Subject: carbonation vs. headspace
I have been reading the thread on over/undercarbonation vs. headspace with
fascination, because some of what has been said contradicts my intuition on
this matter.
For example, it just doesn't make sense to me that a low-fill bottle could be
more highly carbonated than a high-fill one.
There are two ways to prime beer for bottling. In one, some sugar is dissolved
in the beer, and the beer is put in bottles. In this case, one bottle which is
full to the top has twice as much sugar in it as a bottle which is only half
full. The half-full bottle will generate only half as much CO2, therefore, as
the full bottle. After carbonation, the half-full bottle will have half its
gas in the headspace and half in the beer. Simple arithmetic shows that the
beer is half as carbonated as in the full bottle.
This is contradictory to several people's experience that low-fills are more
carbonated, not less. So what is wrong with my explanation?
One possibility is this: it has been posted here that at equilibrium there is
more gas per unit volume in the beer than in the headspace. That makes my
statement ,"After carbonation, the half-full bottle will have half its gas in
the headspace and half in the beer" wrong, but it still doesn't explain
overcarbonation. If ALL the carbonation in the half-full bottle were in the
beer and NONE in the headspace, then the carbonation of the two bottles would
be the same. There just isn't enough CO2 to overcarbonate, because there
wasn't enough sugar to begin with. And the premise is ridiculous (no
carbonation in the headspace) so this doesn't explain the overcarbonation.
Another possibility is this, and please don't take this personally, you guys.
Maybe the low-fills are NOT overcarbonated. Maybe you just thought they were
for some reason. A low-fill makes more noise when you open it, because there
is a lot more gas that has to escape. I think a natural reaction to the bigger
hiss is to assume that this bottle is way gassier. But did the beer FEEL more
fizzy in the mouth?
Like I said, I'm confused by this whole thing, so maybe you could answer two
questions:
1) How was the over-carbonation of a low-fill bottle perceived?
2) How can it be that there is more CO2 per unit volume in beer than in the
headspace? How much more is there?
Suurballe
suurb@farallon.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 15:07:09 PDT
From: ALYON@IOSSVR.gm.hac.com
Subject: RE: German Stein Lids
In reply to a recently posted comment
> RE: German Stein Lids
> After consultation with Germans in our company, the
> consensus is that it is for head retention. By keeping
> the air off the beer, the head stays longer.
What is the advantage of keeping the head a few minutes longer?
Germans like to have a large beer (500ml) and drink it slowly.
I lived in the town of Bamberg, in South Germany, for some time.
The population of 70,000, including over 10,000 university students,
supports over 140 breweries. They have a long beer making tradition
and many speciality beers including Bamberger Rauchbier (smoked beer).
I frequented the Kneipe (pubs) to enjoy a few beer and practice my
German. I never did manage to try all of the beers. Anyway, to avoid
further digression, let me get to the point ...
Summer is the time for the beer garden. You can sit outside under the
sky and enjoy beer, company, and fresh air. Summer is also the time
for wasps, and wasps just love beer. They almost fight over who gets
to drown first. Anyway you need to have something to cover your beer
glass to keep the wasps out. Placing a coaster on the top of the
glass works well but a mug with a lid works even better. Raise the
mug to your lips, snap open, drink, snap shut. No wasps to chew,
very practical, and no time to admire the head.
Prosit.
Andrew Lyons --- MacDonald Dettwiler --- Richmond, BC, Great White North
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 16:08:45 MDT
From: Bryan Dawe <bryand@gr.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Wort Priming
DBLAKE1037@aol.com writes:
> I have saved the 3 cups of raw wort (sg=1.072) because I thought that it
> would be a good idea to use it to prime when bottling time comes around.
> With that, I air the following questions:
> 1) Do I have enough (volume-wise and sugar content-wise) to prime
> adequately? (I am brewing a weizen).
No. Not even close for a weizen, IMNSHO. See below.
> 2) I can assume that nuking the "starter" 'till it boils is a good
> idea to kill any nasties. Am I correct?
It is a good idea. Be careful using a microwave oven for this task. I
have found that it is difficult to prevent severe "boil-overs" when
attempting to boil wort in this fashon.
> 3) Can someone furnish the formula to determine the approximate sugar
> content of the "starter" so I (and others) may be able to find out how
> much wort to use in the future? I figure that planning on making a little
> extra wort at brew time might be a good idea.
Now for the good part. I have been waiting for a good excuse to present
this article for quite some time. What follows is probably more than
that for which you asked. Oh well.
Lets define some variables:
P Percent "sugar" by wieght in priming solution. This
quantity is often measured as degrees Plato; roughly
equal to 1000 x (Spec. Grav. - 1)/4
B Liters (or any convenient volume measure) unprimed beer.
S Liters (or convenient volume measure, must be the same
as volume measure of B) priming solution.
D "Volumes" CO2 pre-disolved in unprimed beer. If two liters
CO2 are disolved per liter of beer, the beer is said to
have two volumes of disolved CO2.
G Specific Gravity of Priming solution.
F Fermentability of priming solution. This topic is
interesting. See below.
V Desired volumes of carbonation.
The following approximation can be used as a guide when priming your beer:
S V - D
--- = ----------
B 2.4PFG - V
This relation specifies the volume (not weight) ratio of priming
solution to unprimed beer. This characteristic explains why the actual
volume units employed for the beer and priming solution are unimportant
as long as they are the same. Note also that the relation is independent
of batch size.
It is useful to work through an example to see how this relation is
used. Fortunately Don has provide us with a nice foundation for an
example. I will fill in missing details as needed with reasonable
assumptions.
Assume Don wants to carbonate his weizen at 3 (V) volumes. He plans to use
malt based priming solution having gravity 1.072 (G) or (roughly) 18 (P)
degrees Plato. Assume the fermentability of the priming wort is 0.65 (F).
(Fermentability for most all malt worts varies between 0.60 and 0.65)
Assume further that Don plans to ferment the beer at 68F at sea level
implying that 0.75 (D) volumes of CO2 will be disolved in the beer
following a "reasonable" secondary fermentation. Then:
S 3.00 - 0.75
--- = ------------------------ = 0.083
B 2.4*18*0.65*1.072 - 3.00
So if Don had 20 (B) quarts (5 gallons) of beer to prime he needs to use
0.083 * 20 = 1.66 quarts = roughly 6.5 cups (S) of 1.072 priming solution.
It is not obvious what values to use for two of the variables defined
above. Fermentability (F) and pre-disolved CO2 (D) can be problematic
for a variety of reasons.
Many readers of HBD are familiar with the notion of fermentability but
I think a brief review is in order for those who are not. Fermentability
can be found simply by multiplying apparent attenuation by 0.82. So:
F = 0.82 * (OG - FG)/(OG - 1)
Where OG is the gravity measured by a hydrometer prior to pitching the
yeast and FG is the gravity following fermentation.
So, a 1.054 gravity wort that ferments down to 1.012 is 64% fermentable.
Note that fermentability depends on a lot of factors, the most important
of which are the yeast used and the composition of the wort. Fermentability
usually falls in the range 0.6 to 0.65 for most beers.
Seems simple enough, "What's the problem?" you ask.
The problem is that the yeast, having spent an extended period of time
in the fermenter prior to bottling, has lost some of its vitality, and
you do not know how much. The yeast may be able to ferment 65% of your
priming solution or, if the yeast is "tired," it may only be able to
ferment 30% or less of your priming solution.
This issue can be minimized to non-existance with ales and their relatively
short fermentation and aging times. Lagers, on the other hand, pose a
significant problem with consistent carbonation using this method. The
best solution is to pitch a small amount of fresh yeast with your priming
solution at bottling time. Fermentability then becomes quite predictable
as indicated above.
It is not obvious how much CO2 is disolved in the beer at bottling time.
It is reasonable to assume that CO2 is supersaturated in solution and is
the only gas present shortly following fermentation. If the beer is
allowed to remain in secondary for an extended period, however, air
will diffuse through the airlock and the property of partial pressures
will complicate estimation of disolved CO2. Fortunately, I don't believe
that this process occurs anywhere near quickly enough to have any
meaningful effect with reasonable homebrewing procedures.
I created the table below by setting pressure equal to "standard"
atmospheric pressure in an equation created from a quadradic curve fit
to data from force carbonation tables used for kegging. The table is
*not* based in *any* empirical data and as such is quite suspect. The
table is a useful starting point, however, to estimate the amount of
disolved CO2 in your beer. I am keenly interested in any more accurate
data that someone (anyone) else has found.
To use the table you must know the highest temperature the beer reached
for a "significant" period of time *after* fermentation completed.
The "significant" period of time is the time required for the CO2 to
reach equilibrium at the temperature and pressure (altitude) in question.
This time period depends on, among other things, the "smoothness" of the
interior surface of your fermenter and the amount of agitation to which
the beer has been subjected. The easy answer is just use your fermentation
temperature. If you used a diacetyl rest for a lager, use the diacetyl
rest temperature. If you lagered the beer in secondary *without* a
diacetyl rest (where a small but significant amount of fermentation
continued at the lagering temperature), I would just use the fermentation
temperature and maybe slightly reduce the amount of priming solution.
Remember, if the CO2 has not reached equilibrium, there is probably
more CO2 disolved in the beer than indicated by the table. I have found
in my process that I need to *add* about 20% to the disolved CO2 values
shown in the table to get carbonation levels with which I am happy.
You should *expect* to have to modify slightly the amount of priming
solution needed to meet your individual taste. The table below just
isn't that good.
Temperatures measured in degrees F.
Disolved CO2 measured in Volumes.
Disolved CO2 Disolved CO2
Temp at Sea Level at 5000 feet
40 1.38 1.15
45 1.24 1.03
50 1.11 0.92
55 1.00 0.82
60 0.90 0.73
65 0.80 0.64
70 0.72 0.56
75 0.63 0.49
Once again, if someone has better data on this topic, please post.
> Thanks,
> - --- Don ---
> >DBLAKE1037@aol.com<
- --
Bryan P. Dawe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 15:52 PDT
From: especkma@reed.edu (Erik A. Speckman)
Subject: Re: CO2 inhibition of fermentation.
In Tuesdays hombrew digest there was a post from me explaining that CO2
could inhibit fermentation based on a very simple model.
I did not mean to send it out! Dooh!
The model was probably a bit too simple, as some people have pointed out
in e-mail.
In anycase, even if the model is valid, it seems quite likely that @the CO2
pressures encountered in a bottle of carbonating beer, the energy
released by fermentation will drive the reaction to near completion,
dispite the buildup of endproducts, namely CO2.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 17:08:41 -0600
From: Kelly Jones <k-jones@ee.utah.edu>
Subject: Western Pub System
Several times, I have heard microbrewers/brewpubs describe their
brewing equipment as being of the "Western Pub System" type. Does
anyone know exactly what this means? I don't think it's a brand name.
Thanks,
Kelly
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1468, 07/06/94
*************************************
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