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HOMEBREW Digest #1467
This file received at Sierra.Stanford.EDU 94/07/05 00:33:19
HOMEBREW Digest #1467 Tue 05 July 1994
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Metal Fusion Burners (Don Put)
Scrounging for parts in NJ (Art Steinmetz)
Misc. (PNEUMAND)
It's been a BAD day. (David Draper)
honey peach recipe (Victor Franklin)
MARKETING RESEARC (douglas.kerfoot)
Re: Coors "Weizen" (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
My King Kooker has a solid stand! (03-Jul-1994 1501 -0400)
Headspace and carbonation. (Erik Speckman)
CO2 inhibition of fermentation (Erik Speckman)
Re: St. Patricks Kegs (David)" <mbarber@hsv23.pcmail.ingr.com>
rental of kegs (Sean MacLennan)
Carbonation (Robert H. Reed)
Loose Caps - CO2 purge? (Domenick Venezia)
Keg Crimes #5 -- the neverending story (Louis K. Bonham)
hqx files/beer labels ("Corey W. Janecky")
Re: Filters and sub-micron filtering (Dion Hollenbeck)
Membership in ASBC (Jim Javenkoski)
(WIRESULTS)
Trivial reply to question.. (m.bryson2)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 08:44:48 -0700
From: Don Put <dput@csulb.edu>
Subject: Metal Fusion Burners
>From: Sean.Rooney@uic.edu (Sean Rooney)
>Subject: King Kooker - which one?
>I just received a catalog from Metal Fusion, the King Kooker manufacturer,
>and I'm overwhelmed by all the different models. Does anyone have insight
>as to which is the ideal brewing stove? Basically, there are 170,000 btu
>"cast burner" models and 200,000 btu "jet burner" models, and each comes on
>3 or 4 different stands. I've read on HBD of problems with adjustability,
>efficiency, and stability, and I remember somebody saying that a keg fit
>perfectly on their stove. Please help.
I recently bought one of the cast burner models as a result of seeing it
mentioned on the digest. When I called Metal Fusion, the guy was very,
how shall I say, disturbed because of all the calls he got regarding
a $15.00 burner (the price mentioned in the HBD post). He said that only
included the burner casting with propane orfice with NO stand. He asked
what I wanted it for and I told him, and he described what was available.
When I questioned him as to the strengh of the stand the cast burner was
mounted in, he said: "Man, I weigh 260lbs and I can jump up and down on
it all day without breaking it." Not being one to argue with a 260lb
man, I ordered one (they call it a ring burner, but it's really not as
ring-like as most of the ring burners I've seen). However, it works very
well and is sturdy enough to support my keg/boiler without any problems.
It also has a adjustable regulator that controls the flame along with an
adjustable air baffle. I find that once I get the wort boiling (I usually
do 10 gallon batches) I have to turn the flame WAY down to keep it there,
and it provides for a nice, roiling boil.
My three-tiered brewery now contains a modified hot water heater burner
for sparge water, a very nice 3-ring burner for mashing (all three burners
are independantly adjustable which is very nice for mashing), and the
Metal Fusion cast burner/monster burner for the boiler. I'm very happy
with the setup. If I was to redesign and build another 3-tiered setup, I
would get three cast burner assemblies from Metal Fusion (just the casting
and propane orfice) and build my own stands. But, hey, I'm not looking
that hard for projects at the moment :-) Besides, I have to beat js to
the market with my motor/paddle assembly ;-)
don
dput@csulb.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 12:13:45 -0400
From: Art Steinmetz <asteinm@pipeline.com>
Subject: Scrounging for parts in NJ
I live in the northern, NJ Morristown area. I see a lot of
ATT/Bellcore types posting here and I'm hoping to get some
local tips from you folks. Any recommendations on where to
scavange "cool stuff." Scrapyards, surplus auctions, etc.
Thanks! Private or public replies welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 1994 19:02:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: PNEUMAND@delphi.com
Subject: Misc.
Here's my 2 cents n some recent threads;
RE: Contamination. Here in Forida (Bacteria Central)
RE: Contamination. Here in Florida (Bacteria Central) I have never had a
problem. I use a mild bleach solution to soak everything
that contacts the beer.
RE: Isinglass and Irish Moss. Why? Why add these bizarre thingsto your beer?
Just to make it clear? Like Bud? I know my beer
is better than Bud's and it is a little cloudy.
So what? Better than adding fish guts or seaweed
to it. I've never had anyone turn down a 2nd.
mug of slightly cloudy homebrew :)
RE: German Stein Lids. After consultation with Germans in our company, the
consensus is that it is for head retention. By keeping
the air off the beer, the head stays longer.
RE: Heineken Skunkiness. Heinekin irradiates their beer to destroy bacteria
in their water supply. That is why the beer has that
flavor. (Plus a little from the water itself)
RE: Flame(pissing) contests. Go to town. This type of thing really gets down
to the truth. I've seen a lot of BS go across
this digest and appreciate someone addressing it.
The flame approach makes people think before the
post.
RE: Stuck fermentations. Warm that beer up (Brrrrrrrrrrr.)
Dave Pneuman Siemens Nixdorf Boca Raton, FL
Too busy fishin' to all grain.....
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 09:24:15 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper@mq.edu.au>
Subject: It's been a BAD day.
Dear Friends, today I had my worst-ever brewing experience. I publicly
describe this humiliating ordeal only in the hope that it might befall no one
else. The executive summary is: NEVER walk away from a boiling brewkettle
with a lid even PARTIALLY on it.
I was brewing an extract IPA. I do partial boils in my 12-litre (or so)
brewpot. After dissolving my extract, adding the juice of my steeped
specialty grains, restoring the boil, and popping in my first dose of hops
(some Pride o'Ringwood flowers) in a hop bag, it emerged that, because of the
particular geometry of the way the hops were in the bag, a persistent blurping
bubble near one rim of the pot was sending small spatters of wort onto the
stovetop (a glasstop, 4-burner affair mounted into a rectangle cut into the
countertop). Not wanting to deal with this inconvenient mess, I placed the
lid to my kettle on the pot in an askew fashion, leaving about 1/4 of the area
of the pot's opening uncovered in order to avoid what we all know befalls a
covered pot of boiling wort--boilover. For the next 30 minutes or so I went
about my usual business of putting away my grains, getting my finishing hops
bagged up for the T-minus-10-minute addition, etc. No problems. What I
usually do is close my kitchen door, leaving the fan in the adjoining laundry
room on to help draw out the steam, and have the window open, all to minimize
the aroma effect for the benefit of the neighbors and, especially, my long-
suffering wife. I have never before today left a lid on the pot; my burner is
sufficiently robust that a full rolling boil is easily maintained. For the
last half of my boiling, things always (except--guess when) have quieted down
so that very little attention is required. I very often vacate the kitchen by
this time, leaving the door shut, and go do other things. Today when I
re-entered the kitchen at T-minus-10, I was greeted by a most horrific sight.
Seems that the jiggling of the pot while it boiled had shimmied the lid over
so that it ended up covering the entire pot. This apparently happened not too
long after I had left the room, judging by how little wort was left in the
pot. The Mother of All Boilovers had sent wort over the top of the pot, onto
the glasstop stove, which, being mounted in a rectangle cut in the countertop,
provided a nifty access to the cupboard below the stove. What remained on the
stove top was baked to a wonderful brownish black color and had the
consistency of Super Glue (tm). There was a huge puddle of wort (which, being
a partial-boil IPA-in-waiting, probably had a gravity of 1.2 or even higher--
I'm too despondent to calculate what it would have been) dripping off the
countertop onto the floor. I had that mostly sopped up when I opened the
cupboard door to wipe it off--only to discover that both shelves of the
cupboard were awash as well--including every pot and pan we own, less about
two. This from the nifty access provided along the edges of the rectangle in
which the stovetop is mounted. Needless to say the batch was a writeoff. For
the next three hours I cleaned and cleaned and cleaned--I had to literally
disassemble the cupboard in order to get to all the wort-soaked parts. Then I
had to wash every pot and pan we own, less about two, in addition to my usual
brew gear. And I don't even have the consolation-prize of knowing that yeast
are busily procreating in my fermenter.
So friends, take it from me. DON'T leave a lid on your pot. Even partially.
If you have to leave the room to take a leak, take the lid off. If you have
to leave the room to answer the phone, take the lid off. You get the idea.
Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University
ddraper@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au NSW 2109 Sydney, Australia
Fax: +61-2-805-8428 Voice: +61-2-805-8347
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 18:32:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Victor Franklin <biker@eskimo.com>
Subject: honey peach recipe
i would like to make a honey peach recipe w/lots of honey and peach
flavor. a good summer beer. i was thinking of the following. any
suggestions?
1 can sun country wheat extract
7 1\2 lbs light clover honey
1 - 1 1\2 oz cascade in 60 min boil
1\2 oz cascade to finish
brewtek cl-32 belgian ale #2
10 lbs of fresh peach puree in the secondary
i would like it at a good 7% alch. very lightly hopped.
any suggestions on any of the ingredients?
especially the yeast and hops.
just as a note i do a full boil. (if it matters)
any help on refining/revamping this would be much appreciated.
Victor Franklin
biker@eskimo.com
** in search of a better beer **
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Jul 94 11:13:59 -0400
From: douglas.kerfoot@sbaonline.gov
Subject: MARKETING RESEARC
I am doing a graduate level marketing project on the homebrew industry. If
anyone has done any similar projects and would be willing to share their work I
would greatly appreciate it! Please send me private e-mail.
Thanks to all who helped me answer the mystery of the stuck fermentation on my
helles bock. CAUTION: Laaglander extra light spray malt has a very high
percentage of unfermentables. Unless you like the taste of mildly alcoholic
wort, do not waste $30.00 of the stuff like I did!
I finally received my three kegs from St. Patricks'. They arrived two-weeks
later than promised and one is missing the cover-bail and had a broken peice
inside of the inlet fitting. I will post a follow on how well they resolve the
issue. As far as I'm concerned, I have only received two kegs right now for a
cost of $46.00 including shipping. 3/$33.00, too good to be true?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 09:52:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: walter@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
Subject: Re: Coors "Weizen"
> picoreview: it's not.
>
> microreview: I don't know why they bothered. Tastes like an american
> lager. No real wheat flavor, definitely no Weizen yeast flavor.
>
> It's also got the word "stout" on the bottle. But I think it's part
> of the size designation: "stout 12 oz" That is, it's a wider than
> normal (longneck) bottle. But I could be wrong.
Well, have you tried the local weizen, or hefe weizen? Some of these are
true German weizens, or approximations thereof; but often what a micro
calls a weizen is just an American wheat. A very pale ale, using wheat,
lacking a lot of hops. If you are going to jump all over Coors for calling
an American wheat a weizen, then you better get on the micros too! Now,
their Eisbock, that is another story ...
As far as the beer goes, it definitely is an ALE. Yes, it was bland, as
any American wheat is. But that IS the style. It is a much better attempt
than the "eisbock", IMHO.
I too would have loved a good German weizen, and thus you will not find
much Coors weizenbeer in my refrigerator. But then I don't think I am the
audience that Coors is aiming at with this beer anyway. But that's a whole
different thread ...
Brian
Brian J Walter
walter@lamar.colostate.edu GO Pack!
Chem Grad Student Homebrewer/Beer Geek RUSH Fanatic (music)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 94 15:03:31 EDT
From: 03-Jul-1994 1501 -0400 <ferguson@zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: My King Kooker has a solid stand!
>Date: 30 Jun 1994 09:26:12 U
>From: "Rich Scotty" <rscotty@denitqm.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>
>Subject: Cookers
>
> Subject: Time: 9:17 AM
> OFFICE MEMO Cookers Date: 6/30/94
>David Hippe writes:
>
>>I have seen the King Kooker for $50 with 170,000 btu but I am
>>concerned with the stability of the tripod. I found a Cache Cooker for
>>$70 rated at about 100,000 btu which looks more sturdy. What btu >rating
>>should I look for? >Does anyone have a distinct preference?
>I have a King Cooker and you are correct in your assessment of the tripod. I
>never trusted the thing. It is poorly designed and doesn't fit well enough to
>be useful. I solved this problem with my trusty Black & Decker Workmate (tm).
On the contrary, my king kooker's stand is very solid and stable. I do boils
of 10+ gals in a 15.5 SS boiler. never had a problem. the height is nearly
perfect.
jc
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 15:50:29 -0800
From: especkma@reed.edu (Erik Speckman)
Subject: Headspace and carbonation.
About a week ago I explained how the amount of headspace should not have a
large effect on carbonation. Since then I have been trying to reconcile my
explanation with peoples observations that larger headspace gives higher
carbonation.
My first impulse was do dimiss them as "old brewers tales" but now I have a
hypothesis. If the yeast can utilise the O2 in the headspace in aerobic
respiration then, instead of producing 2 molecules of CO2 and two molecules
of ethanol, the yeast will produce 6 molecules of CO2.
This has the potential for 3x as much CO2. However, in practice, this
increace is unlikely to be reached. Let's say we have a headspace of 2 oz
with 12 oz. of beer. The headspce is rougly 20% the voulme of liquid. That
headspace is approx 20% O2. This O2 is converted to CO2 in a 1:1 ratio.
At completion we have an "extra" 20% of CO2 in the headspace. This will
increace the dissolved volume of CO2 by only 0.04 liquid volumes. (20%x20%).
That is about 2% more carbonation in a typically carbonated ale (2 volumes
of dissolved CO2)
Not enough to notice. Back to the drawing board.
Erik
PS. Thanks to the people who pointed out that the headspace will generally
hold less CO2 per volume than the liquid.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 15:55:36 -0800
From: especkma@reed.edu (Erik Speckman)
Subject: CO2 inhibition of fermentation
>Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 9:44:24 EDT
>From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1@columbia.edu>
>Subject: bottle conditioning
>
[CO2 pressure limits fermentation, and therefor carbonation durring bottle
conditioning]
>
>Is this actually a known fact? I was assured by a microbiology professor
>who works on the sucrose metabolism pathway in S. cerevisiae that there
>is NO feedback inhibition by CO2 pressure on the fermentation enzymes.
Even if their is not a separate pathway for feedback inhibition there is
allways thermodynamics. Every reaction has an equilibrium constant that is
dependant on the concentrations of the reactants and reactant products. In
the case of fermentation the equation would look like:
[EtOH]x[CO2]
Keq = ------------
[Glucose]
Unfortunatly I do not know the Keq for the fermentation of glucose to
ethanol. I should be able to come up with a decent approximation if I can
find or figure out an equation to find Keq given the change in free energy
between reactants and products.
When I have the numbers I need, I suspect we will find CO2 pressure does
not play a meaningful roll in determining the endpoint of carbonation.
Until then, it is a possibility to consider.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 94 16:50:00 CDT
From: "Barber, Marshall (David)" <mbarber@hsv23.pcmail.ingr.com>
Subject: Re: St. Patricks Kegs
>Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 10:11:32 CDT
>From: unisql!jonh@cs.utexas.edu (Jon Higby)
>Subject: Re: St. Pats
>I've been watching the posting about St. Pats kegs. Being local to St. Pats
>and a regular customer, I would like to provide some insight.
>There were two bulk shipments of kegs to St. Pats. The number of orders
from
>their advertisements and posting to the HBD & rcb, way outpaced their
>inventory. They had a line on another 1,000+ and bought them. By the time
>they had finally got their second shipment, they were greatly back ordered
>and have been swamped ever since.
No one held a gun to Lynne's head and forced her to accept more orders than
she was able to fulfill in a timely manner. If the kegs are back-ordered,
the customer should be advised of this up-front.
>Points to keep in mind:
>1.) They have wholesale orders for the kegs too (other homebrew shops for
the
>SAME price as you are paying). They place all customers ahead of their
>wholesale orders!
Huh? If "wholesale" orders impose no delays on the orders from the rest of
us, then why should we keep this point in mind?
>2.) The price is/was more than good - in hindsight, it was too good.
Consider
>the price to be offset by the shipping delay (now, it wasn't planned that
>way). If you need your kegs now, cancel your order and go to your local
>homebrew supply store for them.
St. Patricks set the pricing themselves, just like with any of their other
supplies, so I don't see where this excuses unreasonable delays. If I had
known in advance it would take two and a half months to get the kegs, I
never would have placed the order. I never cancelled the order because they
kept stringing me along with promises that the kegs would be shipped
"today".
>3.) There is a good bit of physical labor involved in shipping the kegs.
This
>includes pressure testing and packaging (taping the kegs together). It
>definitly takes longer to prepare kegs to be shipped than it does an
>equivalent dollar amount of malt, yeast, hops, etc.
So? Again, a common complaint is that St. Patricks promises that the kegs
will be sent "today" or "tommorrow", and then doesn't fulfill that promise.
If they don't know when they'll be able to ship, then I expect to be told
that.
>4.) Kegs are not their primary business. They do a huge mail-order volume
of
>supplies and equipment (both wholesale and retail). This part of the
business
>has to have priority over the shipment of the kegs.
This makes no sense to me. Are kegs not "supplies and equipment"? Why
should a keg customer expect to be discriminated against? Has St. Patricks
stated up-front that kegs are a secondary business, and handled as a lower
priority issue?
>5.) They do not (as someone implied) charge your creditcard before they
ship
>the kegs.
>
>6.) Complaints in general:
>You are buying used kegs. Complaints about syrup still being inside, the
>outside having scratches, small dents, being taped together when shipped,
etc
>are ridiculious. If you want a perfect keg, go buy a new one for $100 plus
>instead of $11! In most homebrew shops, you can't buy a 5 gallon glass
>carboy for $11! Complaints about the lack of an 800 toll-free number -
>how do you think homebrew shops pay for that service (hint - they don't
>just pay it out of their own pocket!)??
Most of the complaints I have seen about St. Patricks kegs have been pretty
major - leaks in the keg body, leaks in the fittings, New O-rings being
shipped inside kegs with syrup in them, the rubber bottom distorted such
that the keg will not stand up. Though my replacement O-rings were taped to
the outside of the kegs, they still reek of syrup - I have no idea why, if
these really are new rings.
>Given the overwhelming response, the complaints, the general hassle - I
>don't expect they will ever offer this kind of deal again. I can't blame
>them. I visited and talked with them this past Saturday (6/25). At that
>time they said they were close to being caught-up in the keg shipments.
>I have absolutely no ties (financial or other) to St. Patricks. I have just
>come to be good friends with the owners and have had long, open discussions
>with them on everything (including the kegs). They are fine, honest people
>attempting to deal (as best they can) with the overwhelming response to the
>kegs.
Honest? Points to keep in mind:
1) I was first sent (and charged for) pin-lock kegs instead of the
ball-locks I ordered. I would have accepted this as an honest mistake had
she handled it differently. She immediately implied that I really had asked
for pin-locks, and tried to pressure me into accepting them anyway.
Interestingly enough, I have since learned that others have been shipped
pin-locks instead of the ball-locks they ordered. Having only
circumstantial evidence, I will certainly not make any accusations here, but
I think the implications speak for themselves.
2) I still have not received reimbursement for the price difference between
the pin-lock and ball lock kegs nor for my shipping expenses in returning
the pin-lock kegs. Lynne promised me these reimbursements back in April.
3) I was promised, at two different times, that kegs would be shipped to me
"today" and "by tomorrow", respectively, and in fact they were not.
4) Lynne claimed that I had not returned the pin-lock kegs to her when she
had, in fact, received and signed for them three weeks earlier!
5) There have simply been too many mishaps with no excuses for this one
simple order!
>Send any flames to /dev/null, I don't care to see them.
I see you share St. Patricks' attitude toward complaints - it's no wonder
you get along so well with them!
>Jon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 01:00:00 -0400
From: sam@gobi.toolsmiths.on.ca (Sean MacLennan)
Subject: rental of kegs
On the kegging issue... In Canada, Labatts or Molsons is coming out with
a key that contains about the same amount of beer as a 24. It is already
pressurized, and needs no tap. There are marketing it to the
party/cottage crowd as being more convenient than a 24.
The kicker is, the deposit will be applied to your credit card. If you
bring it back within x weeks (hey, it's monday morning, can't remember
the detailzzzzz), it costs you nothing. For every week after x weeks,
they deduct $4 rental charge. If you don't return it within y weeks,
they charge you $40? for the key. I believe this last charge is 1/3 its
wholesale value.
Sean MacLennan
sam@toolsmiths.on.ca
There is no bad beer, only better!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 10:09:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert H. Reed <rhreed@icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Carbonation
Kelly writes:
>
> Back to the subject of overcarbonation: Frankly, I have never
> experienced this phenomena, and feel it might simply exist only in
> peoples' minds. (That should earn me a few flames.) On the basis of
> the physical science of carbonation, there is just no reasonable
> explanation for this phenomena. But since so many people have claimed
> to have witnessed it, perhaps we should keep looking for a reasonable
> explanation.
A very well known homebrew author in his recent book claims that
overcarbonation problems can be explained as "The simple explanation
is that you have added too much corn sugar". Perhaps, but considering
the other fairly detailed aspects of homebrewing, I can't see that many
homebrewers adding two or three cups of dextrose in a fit of confusion.
Several plausible reasons for overcarbonation - assuming no contamination -
are:
1) Bottling too early - especially lagers which tend to ferment more slowly.
If you endpoint your fermentation visually w/o a hydrometer, you may not
always recognize the end of fermentation.
2) CO2 dissolved in your beer - I see this with ales fermented in the low 60s
and with lager fermentations. At colder temperatures, CO2 is more soluble
and this CO2 can throw off your carbonation levels if the beer is not
brought to room temp a couple of days before bottling (unless you are
able to measure your beer's CO2 content)
3) Complex sugars - I have had high-dextrin beers that become marginally
overcarbonated of a period of months (6-9). I have attributed (no data)
this phenomenon to the very slow fermentation of complex sugars during the
storage period.
-Rob Reed
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 07:58:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia@zgi.com>
Subject: Loose Caps - CO2 purge?
>From: Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ@AC.GRIN.EDU>
>question that may be related. Some while back in the HBD it was opined
>that, when bottling, if you leave the bottle cap on top of the bottle
>without sealing it for a few minutes, the CO2 from the yeast will purge
>the headspace of unwanted O2.
>I can't really believe that the yeast is kicking out all that much
>CO2 at this stage.
This is something I have practiced for quite a while. I must agree that
it seems unlikely that the yeast is producing much CO2 so soon after
priming, but I don't think that that is the source of the purging CO2.
When I rack from the secondary into the bottling container there is a lot
of outgassing of dissolved CO2 and as I bottle this outgassing continues -
if you use clear hoses you can see it. Also that sputtering you hear out
of the bottling cane (if you have one of the spring loaded ones) are the
outgassed CO2 bubbles passing through the cane. So as the bottles sit
with the caps only laid on the outgassing CO2 displaces the ambient air.
>(2) If it's true that O2 can migrate back and forth across the cap seal
>anyway, then doesn't that negate the intended effect of the "natural" CO2
>purge described above?
Over time perhaps, but if something as simple as not crimping for 15-30
minutes can increase your shelf life by even a couple months, it's
worth it in my book. In fact this 15-30 minute wait is not a wait at
all if you fill all the bottles, then go back and crimp in the same
order.
Cheers!
Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia@zgi.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 1994 10:52:28
From: lkbonham@beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham)
Subject: Keg Crimes #5 -- the neverending story
I can't resist continuing an intelligent debate.
Todd Jennings makes the following thoughtful observations:
>Property law dictates that unless by written or oral contract (and
a few other particulars like adverse possession), title can only
pass when there is a bona fide purchaser.
Absolutely correct, although I'd note that abandonment is an
especially applicable "particular" in the case of kegs. The key
question, however, is *what* are the terms retail beer contract? If
it's a sale, title passes. If it's a rental, no title passes. My
critique of your logic (explained below) is that you leap to the
conclusion that the contract is automatically a rental (and
therefore there is no possibility of a BFP [lawyerese for "bona fide
purchaser", as I suspect Todd knows] when in fact there may be
nothing manifested in the parties' contract to support this
conclusion.
>In the scenario of the jeweler and the watch, the third party who
the jeweler sold the watch to would be a bona fide purchaser
because the sale of jewelry items is customarily transacted in the
jeweler's shop. This situation is entirely different from the
consumer buying a keg of beer from the distributer. The consumer
would not be considered a bona fide purchaser, mainly because it is
not the distributor's customary business to sell the keg with the
beer.
Wait. Stop. Time-out. The primary question is whether the
retailer's sale of a keg of beer includes passing title to the
keg. By arguing that it's "not the distributor's customary business
to sell the keg," you're asserting your conclusion as a supporting
argument -- a/k/a circular logic. IOW, your argument presumes that
there can't be a BFP because the transaction isn't a sale. If the
transaction *is* established to a sale, however, then the retailer
*is* in the business and therefore there *can* be a BFP.
>The deposit given is customarily for purposes of insuring that the
keg will be returned (After all, he has an obligation to the
brewery).
As I've noted before, how is this intent manifested in the typical
retailer/customer transaction? The fact that the retailer may have
an obligation to the brewery is irrelevant if his intent is not in
some way manifested in the contract with the consumer. If the
retailer *says* the transaction is a rental (orally, in a form
contract, or even with a highly visible sign at his place of
business), then the transaction is a rental and your logic is
unassailable: in such case, there is no BFP, for the simple reason
that there has been no purchase. Typically, however, there is
*no* outward manifestation of such an intent.
>Some vendors even go as far as saying to the customer that their
deposit will be refunded upon return of the keg. This IMPLIES that
the keg is to be returned. No bona fide purchaser, therefore no
title passes.
Agreed that the parties are covenanting for the return of the keg.
This does not, however, lead inexorably to the conclusion that the
transaction necessarily is a rental and therefore there can be no
BFP. My point is that this transaction bears far more hallmarks of
a sale/repurchase transaction (which also includes an understanding
that the res will eventually be returned to the seller, yet it
involves a passing of title) than a rental transaction. Further,
unless there are some manifestations of the parties' intent that a
contract be a rental, the general default is that the transaction
is a sale. See UCC article 2.
[For those of you watching from the sidelines, we're now into the
realm of fairly esoteric and academic issues that are far more
likely to appear on law school exams and law review colloquies than
in courtrooms <g>.]
Returning to a more practical level, everything I've seen and heard
over the past weeks on this thread (on and off HBD) leaves me
convinced that, at the very least, the assertion in the last issue
of BT that possession / conversion of a keg is *always* a crime is
utter and complete hogwash. Whether by abandonment, the inherent
nature of the retail transaction, or other means, breweries can and
do lose legal title to their kegs, and accordingly possession is not,
ipso facto, a crime. Having said that, SABCO's deal on converted
kegs (stainless fittings expertly heliarced with a sanitary weld)
should not be overlooked. You'll probably wind up with a superior
product in the long run, for only slightly more than the cost of
buying a surplus keg and SS fittings, and paying a competent welder
to do the job.
>From a beer lover's standpoint, I would never use kegs from Sierra
Nevada, Celis, St. Arnolds, or similar smaller establishments even if
I was completely sure of legal title, simply because I appreciate
their product and business methods and don't want to do anything that
might even marginally impact their ability to continue producing. For
the same reasons, it might be interesting if hundreds of legally
obtained kegs from the Boston Beer Company were decapitated, with
their sawed-out tops sent to Jim Koch as a silent gesture of disgust.
Happy fourth of July!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 94 11:27:41 CST
From: "Corey W. Janecky" <cjanecky@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: hqx files/beer labels
Thanks to all of you that replied to my recent post about *.hqx files (they
are Mac files in case you wanted to know) and beer label shareware. Though
I didn't reply to y'all personally, I do appreciate you taking the time to
answer my questions.
Thanks,
Corey Janecky
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Beer, its not just for breakfast anymore!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 94 11:07:08 PDT
From: hollen@megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Filters and sub-micron filtering
>>>>> "Steve" == STROUD <STROUD%GAIA@leia.polaroid.com> writes:
Steve> George put up a chart, showing the effect of different size filters.
Steve> The bottom line is that a *true* 0.5 micron filter will take out _all_
Steve> yeast and probably all bacteria...
I just recently talked to the people who make the Katadyn water
filters and they have a true .2 micron ceramic filter. Most bacteria
will be removed by a .4 micron, all but one will be removed by a .2
micron. The one which won't be removed is .2 micron in diameter but
much longer. That fact coupled with the fact that it is quite rare,
being found only one place in the world, they don't worry about not
getting it out completely.
dion
Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814 Email: hollen@megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 20:56:17 -0500
From: pastaman@uiuc.edu (Jim Javenkoski)
Subject: Membership in ASBC
I'm not a list subscriber, but I would like to provide some information
which may be of interest to a few of you: membership in the American
Society of Brewing Chemists (ASBC). Individual memberships are available
for $85.00 per year, while student memberships are $25.00 per year. If
you would like a brochure and membership form to join ASBC, please send
a request for more information and your complete snail mail address to Mary
Courteau, ASBC Membership Services Supervisor at:
maryc@scisoc.org
For those of you who wish to read further, I've taken the liberty of
transcribing part of the ASBC brochure which describes the organization.
"ABOUT THE SOCIETY AND ITS WORK
The American Society of Brewing Chemists was founded in 1934 to
improve and bring uniformity to the brewing industry on a technical
level. Today, ASBC is represented on nearly every continent, by
over 700 individual members and over 50 corporate members.
The Society is not a trade association or a lobying arm, nor is it
influenced by any specific company. To this day, ASBC's primary
objectives are to resolve technical problems on an industry-wide
basis, keep current on the technical needs of the brewing industry,
and anticipate the industry's future concerns.
ASBC members are primarily employed directly by the brewing
industry at firms thoughout the world. The second largest contingent
are employed by allied industries. Approximately 12 percent of the
ASBC membership work as consultants to the industry, and smaller
percentages work in government and academia...
...PUBLICATIONS
*ASBC Journal*
Included in your ASBC membership, this quarterly refereed journal
concentrates on original research findings, new applications, and
symposium topics, as well as review papers. It also includes
subcommittee reports presented at the annual meeting.
*ASBC Newsletter*
A subscription to the Newsletter is also included with your ASBC
membership. The Newsletter focuses on administrative activities
and changes, section activities, committee appointments, and
technical news. It also includes the annual directory of ASBC
members and their company affiliations...
...PROFESSIONAL MEETINGS
The ASBC usually holds its annual meeting in the spring of each
year. This meeting consists of the presentation of technical
papers, the submission of technical subcommittee reports, and the
transacting of Society business. Members are encouraged to present
papers at the annual meeting; these papers are also published in
the ASBC Journal.
During the meeting there are technical exhibits, a members luncheon,
President's reception and banquet, subcommittee meetings, and
hospitality breaks for relaxing and visiting with old friends and
new acquaintances. There are also a number of sections across the
U.S. which meet on a monthly or bimonthly basis for the purpose of
hearing scientific presentations, discussing technical matters
related to brewing, and exchanging views with other professionals.
You may want to plan ahead for these upcoming ASBC annual meetings:
1995 - April 8-12 San Diego, CA
1996 - May 12-15 Chicago, IL"
Hopefully this information has been enlightening for some of you. Please
contact Mary Courteau <maryc@scisoc.org> for further details and membership
forms.
Disclaimer: I do not financially benefit in any way from new memberships in
ASBC. I am the first student member and, quite simply, I don't care to be
the only one! Thanks for your consideration.
James S. Javenkoski "...Try and engage some conversation,
Graduate Research Assistant but people's teeth grind and hackles rise,
University of Illinois and they get that
Department of Food Science glazed look in their eyes..."
399B Bevier Hall
905 South Goodwin Avenue MOONSHAKE
Urbana, IL 61801-3852 "Right To Fly"
Phone: 217.244.0786 from the LP, *The Sound Your Eyes Can Follow*
Fax: 217.333.9368 1994 Too Pure, Ltd.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 94 22:02:35 -0500
From: WIRESULTS@WINET.mste.org
Subject:
I know I've read it somewhere, but I can't find it again.... Can
anyone tell me about a Bodolet (sp?) cooler. I found a reference to
one in a very strange room in an *old* brewery around here.
rjl
wiresults@winet.mst.org
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 94 05:36:00 UTC
From: m.bryson2@genie.geis.com
Subject: Trivial reply to question..
Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that
it's pronounced WHY-yeast...
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1467, 07/05/94
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