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HOMEBREW Digest #1389
This file received at Sierra.Stanford.EDU 94/04/04 00:31:43
HOMEBREW Digest #1389 Mon 04 April 1994
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Heading Agents (Adam Brockman)
Wort cooler follow-up ("Glenace L. Melton")
Double posts (Kinney Baughman)
Finings at bottling stage? (Richard Nantel)
All-grain, yield (Jack Schmidling)
Request for research information. ("N. S. Miceli")
Bottling from kegs (Greg Bishop)
Re: A smaller airlock (Jim Griggers)
Bad address could not deliv ("MACA")
cider ("Steven C. Boxer")
sparge (John Farver)
Low specific gravities? (Davis)
Low alcohol brews (Phil Bardsley )
Rubber flavor in yeast starter (Phil Bardsley )
Fruit Beers (Dennis Davison)
Yield, GOD (Jack Schmidling)
Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
(Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
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If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
FAQs, archives and other files are available via anonymous ftp from
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message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen@novell.physics.umr.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 1994 21:37:58 -0500 (EST)
From: brockman@sunchem.chem.uga.edu (Adam Brockman)
Subject: Heading Agents
I was wondering if any more knowledgeable brewers/chemist out there could
tell me what heading agents are and how they work.
Also, do you think that they are worth while, especially for brewers who
carbonate using bottle conditioning.
Thanx,
Adam Brockman
brockman@sunchem.chem.uga.edu
------------------------------
Date: 02 Apr 94 02:39:16 EST
From: "Glenace L. Melton" <71242.2275@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Wort cooler follow-up
I did not claim my system of cooling wort was unique; just the best I've
tried with simple equipment. The cooled wort is sanitary "enough" because
I don't get spoiled batches, whereas using the wort cooler in the more
usual way I did. Under- or over-cooling the wort is most unlikely since it
is easy to gauge the temperature of the siphon tube as the wort drains out
and stop it off and make adjustments, if necessary. Thus the hypothetical
re-siphoning one respondent objected to is not necessary. The cold break
takes place in the secondary and settles out before pouring the cooled and
aerated wort into the primary fermentation vat.
"Put brain in gear before starting mouth!"
[END]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 1994 07:51:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR@conrad.appstate.edu>
Subject: Double posts
Sorry about the double-posts yesterday, folks. I tried canceling and reposting
with Jim and Matthew's name which I didn't have on the stuff I clipped to my PC.
In my haste, I sent the cancel request to the list instead of to
homebrew-request--as the whole world has seen!!! What a rookie mistake!
Where's that homebrew? -krb
------------------------------
Date: 02 Apr 94 10:50:18 EST
From: Richard Nantel <72704.3003@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Finings at bottling stage?
I've been adding gelatin finings to the secondary with good success. Due
to a slightly inferior extraction rate, my current batch of ale ended up
somewhat short of 5 imperial gallons. I'm not doing a secondary
fermentation on this batch for two reasons: First, since I use 5 imperial
gallon carboys, I'd have to top up with about half a gallon of water in
racking to a secondary, thus lowering my SG. Secondly, the recipe calls for
a one-stage fermentation. It seems that if I add finings to the primary,
I'll just stir up the sediment.
My question is this: has anyone tried adding gelatin finings at the
bottling stage? I rack from the primary to a carboy in mixing in the
priming sugar at the bottling stage so I could just add the gelatin then.
Any ideas? Will the gelatin added at this stage affect negatively the
conditioning of this batch?
Richard Nantel
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
private email to: rnantel@cam.org
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 94 11:45 CST
From: arf@mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: All-grain, yield
>I asked Kinney: `Can't you brew a better beer using all-grain?'
The answer is basically, Yes. But.....
Interesting comment that should not be lost in this rosy scenario of an
extract brew pub.
I guess my question from a business point would be, "why bother?" It ends up
being an eatery with a half hearted brewery and one might just as well buy
good craft beer as take all the pains to make mediocre beer.
>Kinney suggested that when I make my next stout, I use extract and
specialty grains because the strong flavor would more than cover any
flavor benefits from the pale grain....
Misery loves company?
> I am quite tempted to try this, even though for me, extract is 6 times more
expensive than DWC grain. I am curious as to just how good an extract beer I
can make.
Aside from satisfying your curiosity, I find it hard to understand why one
would be so tempted, particularly in light of his admission that one can make
better beer using all grain.
>From: mri10@mfg.amdahl.com (Michael Inglis)
>Subject: Grain Bed Depth
>I was going through some old recipes and I noticed an interesting trend in
my extraction rates. I used to use a 22qt easymasher type setup for my
mash/lauter tun and using an established process I normally got somewhere
in the range of 28-29 pts/lb/gal extraction. I recently swithched to a
33qt easymasher type setup and noticed my extraction rate drop to 24 on my
last 2 batches. My suspicion is that the lesser grain bed depth is the
main culprit. I would estimate that the depth dropped from 6"-7" to about
4".
> Can anyone comment on this phenomenon? What is the optimal grain bed
depth? Thanks for any discussion.
Well, you say "easymasher type" so the real answer might be that all
"easymashers" are not equal.
I have one (EASYMASHER tm) installed in a 6 qt kettle which I call my "pilot
plant". I mash one lb malt with two qts of water and sparge to produce one
gallon of wort and get the same yields as I get in the 33 qt kettle and a ten
gallon Volrath. The grain depth varies between one and about 10 inches in
these tuns.
I really do not believe that grain depth has any effect on the yield
whatsoever. It may effect the efficiency of the filterbed but the EM doesn't
seem to be much affected by that either.
I would suggest that you look elsewhere for the loss. Keep in mind that it
is absolutely essential that you only change one variable at a time when
measuring yield and measure everything carefully. Then do it twice for
redundancy before you even start to think about what is goin on.
js
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 94 11:55 CST
From: "N. S. Miceli" <BA0845@UOKMVSA.BACKBONE.UOKNOR.EDU>
Subject: Request for research information.
I am a graduate student doing a research paper on the brewing
industry, both domestically and internationally.
If it's not too much trouble, could you please suggest sources
containing information like the following:
o Sales volumes by brewer, domestically and internationally,
for recent years, and as far back in the past as possible;
o Product offerings in domestic and foreign markets;
o Diversification strategies (e.g., biotechnology or
fermentation technology spinoffs);
o The effect of technological innovation on the brewing
industry. Related would be infrastructure development (e.g.,
refrigeration, distribution systems, etc.), and effects on
minimum efficient production scale.
Suggestions regarding any sources which you think might be helpful
would be appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Nicholas Miceli
ba0845@uokmvsa.backbone.uoknor.edu
ba0845@uokmvsa.bitnet
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 1994 10:59:49 +0000
From: bishop@magic.geol.ucsb.edu (Greg Bishop)
Subject: Bottling from kegs
I have recently begun kegging my beer. What a headache saver!
Occasionally I'd like to give a bottle of homebrew to a friend and have
questions about bottling from a keg.
Should I turn up the pressure from the CO2 before bottling? Is the loss of
CO2 from the beer significant if I cap the bottles immediately after
filling them? What would be a good pressure to use (I keep my beer in the
keg at about 47 degrees Fahrenheit with a CO2 pressure of about 13 lbs. per
sq. inch).
I would appreciate advice from people with experience bottling from kegs.
Thanks in advance for any tips.
.................................................................
Greg Bishop
Department of Geological Sciences
University of California
Santa Barbara, CA 93106
- -----------------------
Internet: bishop@magic.geol.ucsb.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 1994 22:43:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Griggers <brew@devine.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Subject: Re: A smaller airlock
In Digest 1387 Patricia Doran writes:
=>In my basement I have a small refrigerator (approx. 24"
=>high) which I believe would be ideal for use as a lagering fridge. My
=>problem is this: while my glass carboy fits quite nicely in the fridge
=>on its own, once the airlock is in place (I have a standard airlock,
=>approx. 2" high) the combined carboy-airlock unit is about 1.25" to tall
=>to fit upright in the fridge.
=>My questions are: a) does anyone know of a short airlock that is readily
=>available ; and b) would using a shorter airlock be o.k. as far as the
=>brewing process is concerned? Any info or suggestions would be greatly
=>appreciated.
=>
=>PDoran
I had the same problem. I ferment most of my beers in a seven gallon carboy
sitting inside a 5 ft^3 refrigerator which has a full width freezer at the
top. My normal glass air locks were about an inch too high. What I did was
make an air lock out of 10 mm glass tubing like this:
....................
. ................ . . .
. . . . . .
. . . . . .
. . . . . .
---------- . . . .
******** . . . . <-- Blown out into bulb
******** . . . .
****** . . . .
. . . .
Standard drilled . . . .
stopper . . . .
. ...... .
. .
.........
I had the tubing laying around since I make neon sculptures, but any sign
shop should have this size. The 10 mm fits snuggly in a 3/8" drilled stopper.
I would think that the tubing could be bent fairly easily in a standard
propane torch flame, however I used a 5-point crossfire intended for neon
tubing. Be sure to flame polish the tubing ends where they were cut. The bulb
parts allow bubbles to burst and prevents the water from being blown out or
sucked into the carboy.
I would be willing to make a FEW of these for people that need them, no charge.
You furnish the stopper and shipping costs.
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
|\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/|
|Jim Griggers jdg@devine.columbiasc.ncr.com Columbia, SC|
|______________________________________________________________|
------------------------------
Date: 3 Apr 1994 10:00:52 U
From: "MACA" <maca@maca.sarnoff.com>
Subject: Bad address could not deliv
Mail*Link(r) SMTP Homebrew Digest #1388 (Apri
!!!! Original Message >= 24K; See following enclosure. Preview follows !!!!
HOMEBREW Digest #1388 Sat 02 April 1994
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
>Re: Regulators for Kegging (William Nichols)
RE: SB# 040194 (GNT_TOX_)
Saving face (GNT_TOX_)
Is Decoction Worth It? (George Kavanagh O/o)
Warming up a fermenter in a cold basement. ("J. Frisbie")
Re: Irish Moss (Jeff Frane)
Re: DWI on the Information Super-highway (John D. Pavao)
RIMS basket case (Bob Jones)
Slow Ferment (BUKOFSKY)
early foam? (Tobey A Nelson)
Competition results (Spencer.W.Thomas)
RE: DWI on the Info Super Hiway (Murray Knudson)
beer recipe formulator (chris campanelli)
The economics of Tumbleweed (Kinney Baughman)
Sterilizing chillers (Kinney Baughman)
Light/Fruit (Keith MacNeal 01-Apr-1994 1247)
(Kinney Baughman)
(Kinney Baughman)
Fridge too small or airlock to large. (Fred Waltman)
The economics of Tumbleweed (Kinney Baughman)
Sanitizing chillers (Kinney Baughman)
beer in huntsville (Chuck Mryglot)
Dryhopping/Copper+Vinegar/fruitSanitation/Oops!/ShortAirlock (Algis R
Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
(Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
to homebrew-request@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L@UA1VM.UA.EDU),
then you MUST unsubscribe the same way!
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
FAQs, archives and other files are available via anonymous ftp from
sierra.stanford.edu. (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via
mail from listserv@sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen@novell.physics.umr.edu
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 22:30:36
From: bnichols@mlab.win.net (William Nichols)
Subject: >Re: Regulators for Kegging
Dion Hollenbeck quotes Andy
>
>>>>>> "Andy" == GNT TOX <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU> writes:
>
>Andy> Question about regulators for kegging. We have this regulator sitting
>Andy> here at work. It was used to dispense argon and is now sitting around
>Andy> doing nothing. It's a rather big one, made for a 2o pound tank. Can
>Andy> it be used to keg homebrew?
>
>Andy> Andy Pastuszak
>
>NO, NO, NO. CO2 in the tank is mostly a liquid with a layer of gas on
>top of it in the "headspace" of the cylinder. As such, it is at a
>pressure of from 600 to 800 psi depending on ambient temperature.
>Argon, like oxygen and other "normal" gases is just compressed into
>the cylinder and does not become liquid. Therefore, you are dealing
>with somewhere in the range of 2000 to 3000 psi.
I disagree Dion, I think that 800 PSI on a 3000 PSI regulator
leaves quite a nice safety factor.
The only thing one has to do is change the CGA fitting on the
regulator to one that will mate with tho top of a CO2 tank (all
sizes are the same)
>Fortunately, trying to use an argon regulator for CO2 will probably
>just result in it not working because there is not enough pressure
>to open the high pressure circuit.
As for the it not working at such a low pressure, a regulator does
not stop dispensing as a tank is emptied, but will empty the tank
to atmospheric pressure.
I was looking for a deal like that when I was setting up a kegging
system, but none were available.
Cheers,
Bill Nichols <bnichols@mlab.win.net)
- ------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 94 08:29 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: RE: SB# 040194
If you're as outraged as I am about the senate bill that was in
yesterdays HBD, send E-Mail to Bill Clinton at:
PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV. Go crazy people! I want to be able to read
the HBD AND have a homebrew at the same time!
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Precedence: bulk
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1388 (April 02, 1994)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 1994 12:48:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Steven C. Boxer" <scb15@columbia.edu>
Subject: cider
Can anyone help with an english style cider recipe. I am uncertain if I
should use concentrated juice in combination with juice. Any ideas about
sugar and/or honey? Lastly, what is the best yeast to use to get the
english cider taste. Thanks in advance.
STEVE BOXER
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 1994 10:12:29 -0700
From: John Farver <bruticus@hebron.connected.com>
Subject: sparge
Yesterday I brewed 10 gal of IPA, target grav was 1.063
I completed my sparge getting 13 gal of wort to the kettle as
is normal for me, and noticed that the remaining liquid from the
sparge was sweet. I took a grav on this and it was 1.035. WOW
Well I checked the grav in the kettle and calculated a finish grav
which was 1.060 +-, at the end of the boil I had a 1.063. My
questions are what happened, why and what should I do? I have a
theory but would really appreciate some input. I would not expect
to hit my target grav with that much sugar left behind. I might
mention here that my system has been consistent for 4 years
now and I changed nothing for this batch.
Thanks in advance. E-mail replys ok.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 1994 13:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Davis <sekearns@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Low specific gravities?
I have been getting low specific gravities lately. For example; last
batch had 9 lbs of 6-row and 1 lb of crystal, mashed at 154-156 for 1hour
and then at 165-170 for 10 to 15 mins. My original gravity was 1.032..??
This was for a 5.5-6 gallon batch. This has happened before. Is
this characteristic of a mash problem? Not enough grain (10 lbs seemed
sufficient).? Do I simply add sugar of some sort?
Any thoughts please e-mail, Thankyou very much.
Matt
sekearns@ucdavis.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 94 16:49 EDT
From: Phil Bardsley <UPHILB@UNCMVS.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Low alcohol brews
Several questions have come up recently about low-alcohol brews. I've
been experimenting with the methods Jack Schmidling posted a few months
ago for non-alcohol brews. I have a few answers and a few more
questions myself.
Jack's method, basically, is to brew a normal batch of beer, then heat
it to about the boiling temp of alcohol (145F) until the alcohol is
gone, and bottle. I've found this method works fairly well, and is
low-tech enough for the average home brewer. Here are a few points
worth adding/emphasizing:
1) The alcohol boils off into the air you're breathing (over the
kettle), so use adequate ventilation.
2) You lose some water along with the alcohol, seemingly about the
same volume of both, depending on how long you heat the beer.
It's somewhat difficult to judge the volume lost, which is
critical for priming before bottling (my first batch was over-
carbonated). You can calculate the volume of alcohol to boil off
by estimating the alcohol content from the original and final
gravity. Add 2 or 3 times that much water back in before bottling
to maintain the same volume (or just measure the final volume)
before priming.
3) I hold the beer at 145F for about 30 min, then heat to 160F and
hold for another 10 min to sanitize.
4) The beer takes on a mild "cooked" flavor from heating. It also
turns a bit darker. Both the color change and the cooked flavor
dimish substantially after a few weeks in the bottle.
5) I stir the beer while heating it, but only gently, to minimize
oxidation.
6) Stronger flavors in the original beer (like hoppiness) are reduced
by heating. So, it's good to start with a strongly flavored beer.
I haven't yet tried a hop-back during chilling, or steeping hops
during heating, or adding essential hop oils to the bottling
bucket, but all seem like reasonable ways to add back at least the
hop flavors the heat drives off. My latest N/A started from a
dry-hopped Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone, which retained much of the
hop flavor and aroma after heating.
7) Heating kills the yeast, so to condition the beer you need to add
both priming sugar and yeast. Use the same type you used for
fermenting, or you risk overcarbonation from adding a more
attenuative bottling yeast. I start some leftover wort fermenting
with a sample of beer from the fermenter a couple days before
heating/bottling the N/A beer. It's at high krauesen when it's
time to bottle. I mix in the fermenting wort, or just the yeast
from the bottom of the starter bottle, along with priming sugar.
8) It's difficult to judge how much alcohol is left in the kettle
after heating. I use my nose to judge when it seems most of the
alcohol is gone. The bottle conditioning adds a bit back in. If I
recall, Jack tested his for alcohol content, but I suppose my
methods yield a beer with less than 1%. This is NOT non-alcohol
beer, but it is very light alcohol compared with the 4-5% of the
starter beer.
Now for my questions:
1) Does anyone know a quick method to test for alcohol, akin to the
iodine-starch test, that I could use to tell when all the alcohol
has been boiled off?
2) Does anyone know how the mega-brewers create N/A beer? To get some
motivation for this project, I tasted every N/A beer I could find
on the market. They all taste about the same (light Pils style,
even the German imports) but had no "cooked" flavor. If I could
either remove the alcohol without heating, or remove the cooked
flavor after heating, I'd make a better brew by far.
Thanks in advance. Phil_Bardsley@unc.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 94 17:03 EDT
From: Phil Bardsley <UPHILB@UNCMVS.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Rubber flavor in yeast starter
Hi all,
I use Wyeast liquid yeast for all my brews, and always make up a starter
a day or two ahead of brew-day. The starter is wort I've salvaged from
the bottom of the brew kettle after siphoning most of the chilled wort
into the primary. I filter the hops out of these dregs, bottle it in
mason jars using a hot-water bath, and then use it later to start yeast.
To start the yeast, I pitch the Wyeast package contents into a jar with
the wort and attach an airlock. Regardless of the strain of yeast, how
long the starter has been fermenting (1-7 days), what beer type went
into the starter, and whether I shelter the starter from light or not,
it always has a fairly strong rubber taste. Yet, my beer never has a
rubber taste. I don't really use rubber anywhere in the process, except
the stopper in the bottle, which the starter never touches. So, I don't
suppose it's actually rubber causing the taste. The taste doesn't cause
any real problem - I just pour the starter off the yeast sediment and
pitch only the sediment. But, I figure someday I'll create a
contaminated starter and miss the off flavor because the rubber taste is
so strong. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance. Phil_Bardsley@unc.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 1994 18:11:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Davison <exe01679@char.vnet.net>
Subject: Fruit Beers
With all the talk about fruit in beers in HBD #1388 I feel I should interject
into this conversation as a Vintner not as a Brewer (I do both quite well).
As a vintner the use of Campden Tablets is to prevent the wild yeast from
starting the fermentation. 1 crusched campden per gallon of wine (anywhere
from 5 lbs to 15 lbs of fruit) 24 hours before yeast pitching. For a brewer
this is not practical as the Wort may start it's spoilage and produce very
high levels of diaceytl. Best results would be to pitch the fruit into your
at high krausen. This gives you the best chance that wild yeasts will not get
a foot hold. Once fermented the wild yeasts will not effect the flavor of the
beer.
One thing to remember with some fruits & berries (especially Raspberries)
is that they contain alot of acid. This acid will disapate in time (a few
years), so don't over do the high acid fruits and berries. There is a way to
the acid content in the wine by using potassium bicarbonate (NOT SODIUM
BICARBONATE, baking soda).
For my next fruit beer I intend on making a must (same as a wort but must is
a wine term) very heavy with raspberries (about 20 lbs) in 1.5 gallons of
water. Adding potassium bicarb. to reduce the acid to a tolerable level. Once
compete, I'll add this to a 3.5 gallon beer (brewed with a slightly higher
than normal gravity to compensate for the addition of the must). I'll keep you
guys posted as to the results from this. Sometime this fall.
Dennis Davison exe01679@char.vnet.net Exec-Pc, Milwaukee, Wi 414-789-4210
99 carboys of beer on the floor, 99 carboys of beer. If one of these carboys
should happen to keg, then 98 carboys of beer on the floor.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 94 21:51 CDT
From: arf@mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Yield, GOD
>From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR@conrad.appstate.edu>
>Subject: The economics of Tumbleweed
>Town water departments are notorious for playing with the water.
That translates into wildly variable extraction efficiencies.
Is this just a rhetorical statement to be taken with a large dose of salt?
If not, I would be interested in what you consider "wildly variable" and
just what it is they do to caues this and why I never see this in my "town".
Re: Jeff Frane's view on the REAL diety.
As a born-again Athiest and sometime Agnostic, I can't help but take note of
Jeff's allegation that God is in reality.... Irish Moss.
Never wanting to be accused of being narrow minded, I think I might just
check out this one. I have never worshiped said god and proclaimed I never
would, but elevating Irish Moss to godhood is more than I can resist.
Irish Moss, ora pro nobis.
Amen
js
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1389, 04/04/94
*************************************
-------
