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HOMEBREW Digest #1010
This file received at Sierra.Stanford.EDU 92/11/11 00:38:48
HOMEBREW Digest #1010 Wed 11 November 1992
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Yeast Culturing and Storage Question. (Greg_Habel)
racking after respiration (Rob Bradley)
Candi sugar experiment (Phillip Seitz)
re:celis wit (jim busch)
Re: efficiency (Victor Reijs)
Pumps for boiling wort (Alexander R Mitchell)
St. Louis Beer (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Swedish Nightmares!!!! (rizy)
Wyeast Bavarian Lager fermentation temp (CW06GST)
Colorado Blue Laws (Jon Binkley)
Zima ?? (Jimmy Patrick)
Texas-style wheat beer?!?! (korz)
gravity/trub ("Knight,Jonathan G")
Re: BRF (Robert Schultz)
Another Dry Malt Extract source is.... (BRANDO QUARLES 264-3827 10-Nov-1992 1326)
NA, Titans (Jack Schmidling)
First Time Brewing Jitters (Gerald_Wirtz)
NJ Brewpub News (gcw)
Brettanomyces in Porter (Mark Gryska)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 08:28:50 est
From: Greg_Habel@DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: Yeast Culturing and Storage Question.
I recently received an Advanced Yeast Culturing kit for my birthday.
I am concerned about running out of the pre-poured wort agar plates.
The plates are used for propogating and purifying yeast cultures.
The plates are made out of plastic and are not reusable. In the
future I would like to continue using plates. I have contacted a
medical supply company for a catalog listing glass plates and culture
tubes. Now the big question: How does one make the sterile brewers
wort agar? As you can see, I am trying to avoid purchasing the
pre-poured slants and plates. I would rather save the money for
other brew-related purposes (all grain goodies). Greg.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 08:58:50 -0500
From: bradley@adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley)
Subject: racking after respiration
I posted the following on Monday morning; it seems to have ended up
in Tumbolia:
"B followed A, therefore A caused B."
This fallacious form of reasoning is very common, and I plead guilty
your honor, with an explanation. Peter Maxwell and I have had the
following back-and-forth in #1007 & #1008:
>> ....then I got a
>> batch with an INCREDIBLE, UNDRINKABLE amount of diacetyl. End of
>> experiment. Back to racking on day 4.
>
>Was this diacetyl produced BECAUSE you racked off earlier? What happened?
>How could racking earlier than day 4 result in this?
I never claimed a causal connection, although I had hoped to get some
evidence one way or another from other HBDers. I'd love to find the
time and patience to test scientifically the effect of racking at 24
hours on diacetyl production.
My 1990 experiment came to an end based on laziness, not scientific
method. Brewing a batch of beer requires so much work that I
hesitate to take a _chance_ on an experimental method that ended
in failure -- even once -- when I've successfully brewed scores
of batches another way. Unscientific, but in keeping with a hobby
I view as being 45% art, 45% science and 10% magic.
Here's my experience racking within 12-24 hours of pitching. All
batches are full-mash, using only malt and specialty malts.
Batch Style When racked Comments
- ----- ----- ----------- --------
187 Pale Ale Morning after (12-16 hrs.) Up to my usual standards.
188 Mild Ale " " " " " " " "
189 Pale Ale 24 hours after pitching Overpowering diacetyl.
190 Stout planned at 16 hours Was fermenting too
actively to siphon.
After being unable to rack #190, I bottled #189 and discovered the
diacetyl. I have never since attempted racking after respiration.
>When the weather gets colder here I intend to try a
>lager and would like to know if there are any other gotchas regarding
>racking off trub.
Me too, except that mine will be a steam beer. Advice, fellow HBDers?
++++ In HBD1009, Peter told us how a batch that was racked
9 1/2 hours after pitching apparently died. +++++++
When I racked off the trub in batches 187-189, I seem to recall
that it also had the apparent effect of halting the fermentation.
Temporarily, in my case, as it always re-started itself.
I think it may be something like this: until high krausen, even our
top-fermenting friends tend to sit on the bottom, along with the
trub. If you rack too early (9 1/2 hours, in your case), there's
not enough yeast in suspension. If you wait until high krausen,
it's too late, because the furious bubbling makes siphoning impossible.
Someone like George Fix can probably tell us if this is accurate.
If so, then the whole procedure is like toast: "...just cook it 'til
it burns, and 20 seconds less."
>In future I'm leaving it alone.
A good piece of advice I read in _Northern_Brewer_ (the CABA quarterly)
about six years ago: "don't bugger with the beer". Once the yeast
has been pitched, leave it be until you're ready to bottle/keg/rack
to secondary. As a lapsed Catholic, I have a residual belief in the
efficacy of ritual, and always say a "domine" when I pitch my yeast.
Then it's out of my hands, at least until the krausen falls. I wonder
if there's a suitable pagan deity whom I can invoke instead? Perhaps
this Sumerian beer goddess mentioned in #1008-9, or some ancient Celtic
fermentation "spirit" :-)
Cheers,
Rob (bradley@adx.adelphi.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 14:37 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571@mcimail.com>
Subject: Candi sugar experiment
I'm planning to conduct a kitchen experiment to determine just what it is
that candi sugar contributes to beer. However, I'm no scientist and my
supplies of candi sugar are limited, so I'd welcome any comments on the
following "experimental design":
3 test batches of 1 quart each
Each batch will have 1/4 lb DME (+/- 1.040), plus 100 grams of sugar
Batch 1: Corn sugar (the "control")
Batch 2: White sucre candi
Batch 3: Brown sucre candi
Ferment each batch with 50 ml starter from plated Sierra Nevada/Narragansett
yeast (the idea being to use something healthy but neutral in flavor)
Ferment to terminal gravity and bottle with 1/2 tsp corn sugar per bottle
(hard to rack and bulk prime with such small quantities)
Does this sound like the right way to go about it?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:15:20 EST
From: jim busch <busch@daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: re:celis wit
According to recent information from Hoegaarden Wit brewers,
they do not gelantize the raw wheat prior to mashing. What
I was told is that they imploy very long rests (45 min each)
at protein stage (123-ish F), beta rest (144F-ish) followed
by saccharification rest (60 min? 152?) and a mash off.
Normal lautering follows, without a special lauter tun.
I realize this differs with the information from the Celis
post. One would assume similar techniques in each brewery,
but since they are owned by different interests, anything
is possible. I did find it quite interesting that the Celis
information claimed a simple one step infusion. Note that
the Celis post claimed using 6 row malt, not two row. As
someone who has brewed a Wit using 45% raw spring soft wheat
and 5% raw steel cut oats, I can attest to the difficulty
of working with the grains. Now maybe my mistake was using
soft wheat, since the Celis post indicated hard wheat. I
also gelatinized the grains, but I believe the temp got too
low, resulting in a hardened mass. My next go at this
style will follow the multi-step mash bill, keeping the
consistency loose and skipping the grain boiling step. Since
this is a very low gravity beer, it may not be necessary.
Any comments/experiances with the pros & cons of hard versus
soft wheat????
Jim Busch
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 16:29:23 +0100
From: Victor Reijs <Victor.Reijs@SURFnet.nl>
Subject: Re: efficiency
>At the risk of beating this to death, let me try again. We must first
>agree that different types of malt have different "theoretical maximums"
>of extraction. For instance, 2-row pale malt may be 36pts/lb/gallon,
>whereas 6-row lager may be 31pts/lb/gallon, and wheat may be 39ppg.
Oke, there is a theoretical maximum of extraction. We define extraction as
being the amount of stuff which can be extrated out of the grains. So this
includes (un)fermentable sugars and of course all other kind of stuff. Is this
interpretation of extraction oke??? If yes, then ...
>So if someone makes a batch with all 2-row, and gets 30ppg, he has a
>percent efficiency of 83% (30/36).
Oke, this figure (Eff) will presumable be the same for that method of brewing
a single brewer is using. This figure will be quiet constant to the brewer and
type of malt, in my opinion. (real breweries will have high efficiency,
perhaps 100% and beginners lower).
This TM*Eff gives a figure for the OG, correct??? (be aware I do not have the
custom of using pts/lb/gallon, but I am trying to get the Papazian book [what
is the ISBN-number?]).
To get an idea about the FG one needs to know how much of the extract is
fermentable. This figure (Fer) is also different percentage for every malt.
E.g. lager malt 65% of the extract is fermentable, for white sugar this is of
course 100%, for crystal (the European term!) it is 60%, brown sugar it is
95% and dark malt it is 60% (I have more info, but just as example;-) .
Using thus TM*Eff*Fer for every ingredient in the recipe, it is possible to
get a figure for the amount of fermentable sugar and thus a figure of the
amount of Alcohol. Furthermore having the a figure of UNfermentable stuff and
the amount of alcohol, one can calculate the FG.
All the best,
Victor
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:58:21 EST
From: Alexander R Mitchell <ARMITC01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Pumps for boiling wort
*** Resending note of 11/10/92 09:05
To: HOMEBREW--CMS
From: Alexander R Mitchell
Prog/Analyst II C & T
Phone: (502)588-5626
A while back some one mentioned that they used an electric pump to
recirculate mash liquid and for transfering hot (boiling) wort. I
would like information/advice on using a pump for brewing. Please
E-mail me directly, and I'll post compiled info if people are
interested.
Thanks in advance.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:47:09 -0600
From: trl@photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: St. Louis Beer
Hi Estes --
Unfortunately, there is only *one* brew-pub in St. Louis. Fortunately, they
make good beer. The brewmaster is none other than Dave Miller, author of two
books on homebrewing, and all-around nice guy.
Anyway, the pub is called "The Tap Room" and it is two blocks south of
Washington Avenue on 21st Street. As for landmarks, there really aren't any.
This is not particularly close to the hotel -- maybe 16 blocks. Any cab driver
should be able to get you there from the Adams Mark. It helps to approach the
pub from the north, because 21st Street is one-way south. Expect to spend $10
on a big hamburger, plate of spicy fries and a pint of brew. Just north of the
hotel is an area called "Laclede's Landing". There are bars, dance clubs,
restaurants, etc (but no brew pubs) up there. The Hotel desk should be able to
direct you. I'm not much of a "night life" person, so I really can't make any
specific recommendations. If you like jazz music, one of the lounges in the
Adams Mark itself has a reputation for bringing in good players. If you like
live Rock & Roll, check out Mississippi Nights. The Riverfront Times newspaper
is the best place to look for information about Laclede's Landing entertainment.
It'll probably be available (free) in the hotel lobby.
Hope this helps.
=============================================================================
Tom Leith InterNet: trl@wuerl.WUstl.EDU
4434 Dewey Ave. CompuServe: 70441,3536
St. Louis, Missouri 63116
"Tho' I could not caution all
314/362-6965 - Office I still might warn a few:
314/362-6971 - Office Fax Don't lend your hand
314/481-2512 - Home + Infernal Machine to raise no flag
atop no Ship of Fools"
=============================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 17:51:19 +0100
From: rizy@eel.sunet.se
Subject: Swedish Nightmares!!!!
HELP!!!
I'm stuck in a non-brewers land full of watery lager and can't find the
ingredients for a good Stout!!!
Chocolate malt has now become (temporarily?) impossible to get in
Sweden and I'm dying to brew a good Stout for some friends.
Does anyone out there have any ideas for suitable alternatives??
Anyone tried Cocoa or real chocolate??
I've got 10 kilos (20 lb) of crystal malt if anyone has any ideas on a
conversion process (have plenty of pilsener / normal malt as well)
I hope someone out there can help me out !
P.S. Is there many other folks out there in Sweden with the same
problem? So far I've tried ringing around both here in Stockholm and in
Goteborg.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions
Rick Zydenbos.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 12:28:04 EST
From: CW06GST <CW06GST%SJUMUSIC.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Wyeast Bavarian Lager fermentation temp
Last Wednesday I tried to brew an extract/specialty grain
marzen loosley based on Papazian's Winky Dink Marzen. OG was
around 1.050. I cooled to around 70 degrees F and pitched Wyeast
Bavarian Lager yeast. I then placed the fermenterin a refridgerator
at 45 degrees F. No action for the first 12 hours. I then raised the
temperature to around 50 deg. Still no action. Then I turned of the
fridge which is outside and the temperature stablized at around 55 deg.
After 72 hours there were no signs of fermentation. At this point
I brought the fermenter inside in hopes that warmer temperatures
would activate the yeast (73 deg.) Still no action :(
It is now going on the 6th day and my concern is growing with
each passing minute. Is the yeast dead or is it dormant? As far
as I can see I have 4 choices: 1) Keep waiting in hopes that
fermentation starts. 2) Pitch more yeast. 3) Add some kind of yeast
nutrient. 4) Give up. I would rather not choose option 4 as I was
looking forward to drinking some good beer.
Has anyone experienced this problem with this yeast (or any
other lager yeast)? Should I have waited for active fermentation
to start before chilling? or should I have just left it alone in the
fridge? I know that some lagers are brewed over the course of many
months, but how long does it take for the primary fermentation to take
place?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Erik Zenhausern
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:31:36 -0700
From: Jon Binkley <binkley@beagle.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Colorado Blue Laws
Brian Walter writes:
> The mention of CO brews being weaker is left over from
>an old law, to best of my knowledge. I know CO at one time
>sold 3.2 beer, but do not know if this was a ruling for all beer,
>or just for 18 - 21 year olds, or ...
Before the drinking age became 21 for everything a few years ago,
3.2% alcohol by weight (about 4% by volume) beer was the only
alcohol 18-20 year-olds could buy. There were no other restrictions
on alcohol strength. 21 and older could then and still can buy
any kind of beer, from Miller Lite to Samichlaus. We don't
even have to call the stronger stuff "Malt Liquor," as many (most?)
other states do.
3.2 beer is still around, though, because it's the only kind of
alcohol grocery stores and convenience stores are allowed to sell
in Colorado. This is a bit annoying. Since 21 is now the age for
everything, I would like to be able to buy all types of beer and wine
in grocery stores. Two factors prevent this from happening. First,
the political climate is such that no law making drinking more
convenient is going to get passed, no matter how much sense it makes.
Second, the liquor stores will lobby hard against such a change, as
they are now the only source of wine and good beer.
Other blue laws in Colorado are nothing stronger than 3.2% beer can
be sold to anyone on Sunday (except in bars), and nothing at all
can be sold between midnight and 6 am (bars can sell 'til 2 am)
every day.
Jon Binkley
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:43:40 -0800
From: Jimmy Patrick <jimmyp@well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Zima ??
Hey,
Check out the Wall Street Journal from tuesday, there is an article
talking about the advertising for Zima malt-beverage from COORS.
No Suds. Light Clear Taste. Is Coors going against the trend that we
are a prime example of, (people moving towards better beer?) Anyway
some feel that Coors may be making a beverage to sell to younger
people who might not like *real beer* (is coors real beer?)
Jimmyp
well.sf.ca.us
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:14 CST
From: korz@iepubj.att.com
Subject: Texas-style wheat beer?!?!
Just because the world's formost authority on Belgian Wit beer has
taken up residence in Texas doesn't suddenly change the name of the
style does it? Just kidding. No, really -- Wit beer is a recently
-revived style (by Pierre Celis at the DeKluis Brewery in Belgium before
the Belgian industrial-brew giant Interbrew bought him out) that has
been around probably longer than Texas has.
I don't know about the cooking of the wheat in Witbier, perhaps Steve
could follow-up, but the wheat in traditional Lambiks (another very old
Belgian style of beer) is not pre-cooked... the only "cooking" of the
*unmalted* wheat that appears to occur is during the decoctions (this
is from memory -- I believe that Martin Lodahl first noted this -- Martin?)
so the extraction is quite low from the wheat.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 11:57:47 cdt
From: "Knight,Jonathan G" <KNIGHTJ@AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: gravity/trub
I recently brewed an extract-based Bass-Ale clone (supposedly) recipe that
was posted here a couple hundred issues ago.
It went like this:
6 lbs. English Light Xtract (William's)
1.1 lbs Demarara sugar
1 lb crystal
Northern Brewer & Fuggles (I forget how much offhand)
3 tsp gypsum, 1/2 tsp irish moss
Wyeast British
I got an O.G. reading of 48. After about a week in the primary I racked to a
secondary last night and got a reading of about 18.
So here's the question: in the past I've used Wyeast California and
American. In both cases after a week or so in the primary I got gravity
readings much closer to the eventual finishing gravity of around 12, even
with a heavy Christmas ale I brewed which had an OG of 60 or so (American
used with that). Does the British work more slowly? Does it generally
result in a higher FG? Is there anything about the recipe design that would
suggest a finishing gravity in the neighborhood of 18?
Not "worrying," just curious.
Also, I've been interested in th thread on yeast nutrients in trub. I
generally rack off the trub into my bucket primary as soon as the wort is
cool (about 30 minutes for me) and then stir in the yeast. I've been using
Wyeast in standard wort starter solutions and I get excellent starts (usually
within 6 hours) and, to my relatively untrained palate, pretty good beer. If
I were to pitch into the cooled wort in the brewpot, wait 30 minutes and THEN
rack into the primary, as I think has been suggested, what specific
improvements could I really expect in my finished product, and would those
improvements be worth the additional risk of infection from waiting the extra
time before sealing up the beer under the airlock?
Wizards of Wort, please advise!
------------------------------
Date: 10 Nov 1992 09:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Schultz <SCHULTZ@admin1.usask.ca>
Subject: Re: BRF
I agree with Philip, but would like to see a Mac version --
is there a MAC BRF available out there?
Robert Schultz
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:28:58 PST
From: BRANDO QUARLES 264-3827 10-Nov-1992 1326 <quarles@mvds02.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Another Dry Malt Extract source is....
Regarding "C. Lyons" entry in HBD # 1008... "Bulk Prices on Dry Malt
Extract".... I offer the following;
I've also found a reasonable source for Bulk Dry Malt Extract. Mitch's
Brew (603-889-6406) in Nashua, N.H., (a Mom and Pop shop) offers Munton and
Fison 55 lb. boxes of Dried Malt Extract for $129.95. I've been very pleased
with Mitch's Brew as they are almost always open (home operated) and have very
competitive prices. Mitch's Brew's hours are M-F 9:00 am to 5:00 pm, Saturday
9:00 to 2:00 pm, and Sunday by appointment. Since this is home operated they
will also open up their store to you during their "off" hours should you need
something.
standard disclaimer - I have no association with this store and am merely
posting this for your information.
Regards,
Brando.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:20 CST
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: NA, Titans
To: Homebrew Digest
Fm: Jack Schmidling
>From: ryan%phmms0.mms.smithkline.com@smithkline.com (Dominic Ryan)
>Dialysis it hardly an obscure process, woudn't it be sufficient to
allow that you are unfamiliar with it?
No.
> I personally have no knowledge of what A-B uses to produce their
non-alcoholic beer, but dialysing out the alcohol makes perfect sense.
It only makes sense if A-B had a tradition of using the best technology to
produce the finest tasting product. In light of the fact they seem to use
what ever technology it takes to produce the cheapest beer no matter how
insipid it tastes, I humbly stick to my accusation that they dilute it as
major part of the alcohol reduction process. Osmotic process such as you
describe are notoriously expensive and I know of no commercial use on the
scale of a major brewer.
>I tend to doubt that A-B dilutes their regular beer by about seven-fold in
order to reduce alcohol from 3.5% to 0.5%.
I did not mean to imply that dilution was the only measure taken to get
there, just that it was the most easily overlooked.
My experiments with NA make it abundantly clear that dilution is one of their
secret weapons.
The NA I made simply by heating to 170F and letting cool to 150F reduced the
alcohol in my beer to 1.3% according to mass spec measurements made by Jean
Hunter at Cornell.
By diluting this with equal parts water we end up with .65% and a perfectly
drinkable beer. It is not hard to imagine how they get it down to .5% with a
little more water. Nor is is hard to believe this is their "secret process"
when one considers the insipid taste of their NA beer.
On the other hand, if we start out with a malty, hoppy homebrew and process
it as I have described, we end up with an NA that has far more flavor and
character than even their premium stuff.
>From: akcs.chrisc@vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
>Subject: Godzilla vs Mothra
>A funny thing happened the other night. I went to a fight and a
hockey game broke out..... Who would have believed that a calm, orderly
exchange of ideas and opinions could occur without any trouble whatsoever...
Just a good example of one of the evils of the "electronic revolution". It's
a lot harder to be unfriendly when you're eyeball to eyeball. And it's a lot
easier to be objective about beer when you have a glass of it in your hand
than trying to reconstruct what it probably tastes like based on keyboard
entries.
Nice thoughts, Chris...
js
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 15:27 EST
From: Gerald_Wirtz@vos.stratus.com
Subject: First Time Brewing Jitters
Thanks to all of those who answered my mail on first time brewing
jitters. I drank one at five days, one at seven, and a few at twelve -
WOW what a difference a few days make.
The first was flat and kinda bitter.
The second had more corbonation but still a little bitter.
But the ones at twelve days were well on there way to full
carbonation and surprisingly very smooth. The difference in
just a few days was dramatic.
I will slowly drink these as time goes on as I begin the wait
for another batch, now in the secondary, to age.
Once again thanks - Gerald Wirtz - Stratus Computer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 17:02 EST
From: gcw@granjon.att.com
Subject: NJ Brewpub News
New Jersey brewpub news - the "issue" has been introduced to the state
senate and the bill number is S-614. The bill is now in the Law and
Public Safty Committee and in the People's Republic of NJ, only a select
few bills get out of this committee. Once this is accomplished the bill
must passed by the Senate and then the Assembly and if the Assembly adds
amendments, then it goes back to the Senate - isn't politics fun! To top
this fun off, every time the political process adjourns (I think every 2
years) the bill must be reintroduces again. I believe the homebrew bill
had to be reintroduced 2 times for example.
If anyone knows who we can abuse --- I mean encourage to help this bill
along and if anyone knows what the bill actually says (any political
science majors at Trenton State listening) that would be most helpful.
In other news a brewpub has just opened in the area:
Mountain Valley Brewery
Route 202 (ie Orange Ave/Franklin Turnpike)
Suffern, NY.
914-357-0101
Hours: 11:30 - 2 M - Th
11:30 - 4 F & Sat
12 - 12 Sun
Suffern is located just across the broder from Mahwah, NJ near route 87
and 17. They just opened 2 weeks ago and have a porter, pale ale, copper,
copper light (less malt) and an octoberfest will be up by the end of the
week. Have not made it there yet, but will ASAP.
Geoff
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:12:25 EST
From: Mark Gryska <mark@vicorp.com>
Subject: Brettanomyces in Porter
Hi Gang,
I have come across numerous references to Brettanomyces being one of
the yeasts present in the beers of Old England, notably Porters and Old
Ales. I assume that they are still used in beer such as Thomas Hardys.
If one wanted to make an 'authentic' porter then I imagine that the
process would be similar to making a p-lambic. The question is ... does
anyone have any idea which strain of Brettanomyces to use?
- mg
Mark Gryska
mark@vicorp.com
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1010, 11/11/92
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