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HOMEBREW Digest #0973
This file received at Sierra.Stanford.EDU 92/09/21 01:10:53
HOMEBREW Digest #973 Mon 21 September 1992
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Questions part II (John DeCarlo)
Reducing Sugars (berthels)
Keeping Warm ("Justin A. Aborn")
longnecks'n'yeast (The Ice-9-man Cometh)
Re: reducing sugars (pmiller)
nice timimg, liquid yeast (Russ Gelinas)
Bud ads (ZLPAJGN)
re: keeping lauter buckets warm (mcnally)
Reducing Sugars (STROUD)
Wine Questions (Bob Konigsberg)
draft pilsner urquell arrives in chicago! (Tony Babinec)
Milling on-site (korz)
re iodophor (JLIDDIL)
Mill control (korz)
Why crush your own grain? (Phillip Seitz)
Answers (Richard Childers)
preground vs pre-preground (chris campanelli)
cider/mead forums (chris campanelli)
Dallas Brewpubs? (Brian Bliss)
Yield (George J Fix)
Wyeast #1007 (whg)
Questions about hop vines (Mark N. Davis)
Chimay & banana update... (Todd Enders - WD0BCI)
That Yummy Malt Flavor (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Re: re premilling (slack vs strike temp) (Paul dArmond)
Novice hop farmer's report (Ed Westemeier)
Re: Apple Cider (Garrett Hildebrand)
mass of DME (Robert Schultz)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Friday, 18 Sep 1992 08:52:24 EDT
From: m14051@mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Questions part II
>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 05:00 GMT
>From: Peter Nesbitt <0005111312@mcimail.com>
>- I'm having trouble finding true long-necks. Should I
>absolutely not use twist off bottles? I've asked almost every
>eating establishment in town, but they will not give up their
>returnables.
Some people use twist-off bottles without problem. Still, I
wouldn't unless I got desperate. Do you know anyone who drinks
beer of the type that doesn't come in twist-offs? Like Sam Adams
or Bud Dry? You could also consider using plastic soda bottles
or American champagne bottles--you can usually get the latter
from champagne brunches at restaurants. Not to mention the
ever-favorite IBC root beer bottles.
>- What is the purpose of a secondary fermentation tank. My
>first batch uses this method, but doesn't require me to add
>anything, and doesn't give a reason for doing this.
Here are my favorite reasons:
1) Gets the fermenting beer off of the trub. I get a fair amount
of dead yeast and other things at the bottom of my primary and
I don't use blow-off. Thus, I want the beer off that quickly.
2) Gives the beer an extra settling or clearing, leading to much
less sediment in the bottle than if you went directly from the
primary to the bottling bucket (at least in my case).
3) Allows more flexibility in scheduling the bottling session.
With small children and travel for work/vacation, I have often
left beer in the secondary for months at a time before finding
time to bottle. Since it isn't sitting on all that trub in
the primary, it doesn't get hurt by this.
>- I am writing from MCI Mail, and tried to use the PUCC
>MailServer. They have recently changed to allowing BITNET users
>only. Is there another Server that I can use to access the HBD
>site through Mail FTP. I do not have access to Telnet or FTP at
>this time.
Have you tried the instructions that start every HBD?
Here is a quote:
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
(Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
listserv@sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
>- When the priming sugar is added at bottling time, does this
>"revive" the yeast, or just cause some sort of chemical reaction
>to cause carbonation?
I don't know the technical terms for what the little yeasties in
your beer are doing when they aren't fermenting, but not all of
them die, that's for sure. So when you add more fermentables,
for example at bottling time, all the live yeasties start
fermenting again happily. Of course they start giving off all
that CO2 during this process, which will carbonate your beer
under the right conditions.
Internet: jdecarlo@mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo@f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet: 1:109/131
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 09:00:21 EDT
From: berthels@rnisd0.DNET.roche.com
Subject: Reducing Sugars
For those interested in the technical discription of the antiquated term
"reducing sugar" read the textbook extract below, simply speaking it refers
to a monosaccharide (glucose for example) rather than a di or polysaccharide
>From "Principles of Biochemistry" by A.L. Lehninger
Monosaccharides readily reduce such oxidizing agents as ferricyanide, Hydrogen
peroxide, or cupric ion (Cu2+). In such reactions the sugar is oxidized atthe
carbonyl group, and the oxidizing agent becomes reduced. (Remember that
reducing agents are electron donors and oxidizing agents are electron
acceptors.) Glucose and other sugars capable of reducing oxidizing agents
are called reducing sugars. This property is useful in the analysis of sugars.
By measuring the amount of an oxidizing agent that is reduced by a solution of
a sugar, it is possible to estimate the concentration of the sugar.
I hope this is helpful-S.J.Berthel
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 9:38:10 EDT
From: "Justin A. Aborn" <jaborn@BBN.COM>
Subject: Keeping Warm
An old water heater for brewing! What a concept. Can you say
"volume production". Unfortunately, they usually die by
developing a leak.
I saw a note about someone's lauter tun cooling too fast. I wrap
an old insulite camping pad around my two bucket tun and clip it
in place using clothes pins. You could use any insulating wrap
though.
I do a similar thing when I mash. After getting my brew pot up
to conversion temperature, I set it on the floor on the
aforementioned insulite pad and wrap an old electric blanket
around it. The five gallons of liquid gold drops only about two
degrees over two hours!
Justin
Brewer and Patriot
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 8:43:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: SMITH@EPVAX.MSFC.NASA.GOV (The Ice-9-man Cometh)
Subject: longnecks'n'yeast
>From: Peter Nesbitt <0005111312@mcimail.com>
>Subject: Questions part II
> - I'm having trouble finding true long-necks. Should I absolutely not use
> twist off bottles? I've asked almost every eating establishment in town,
> but they will not give up their returnables.
I've never found a place that would just give me their bottles, but (at
least in the states I've lived in) most places will sell you a case of
longnecks for the deposit money ($1.10/case in AL).
> - When my fermentation is nearing completion, does the yeast go into a dormant
> state or just die?
They go dormant. If you wait too long before priming you won't get
carbonation, because once the yeast go dormant, they need things that
finished beer lacks in order to wake back up. Carbonation is done by
the yeasties that haven't gone dormant yet at bottling time; there are
still a bunch of them in suspension even when the beer looks clear.
| James W. Smith, NASA MSFC EP-53 | SMITH@epvax.msfc.nasa.gov |
| "Come with us, we'll sail the Seas of Cheese!" -- Les.Claypool@Primus |
| Neither NASA nor (!James) is responsible for what I say. Mea culpa. |
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 09:17:12 CDT
From: pmiller@mmm.com
Subject: Re: reducing sugars
Spencer Thomas asks about reducing sugars:
> I started reading Belgian Ale last night, and came across a term
> in the "profiles" that is not explained (as far as I can see)
> anywhere in the book [snip] The term is "Reducing sugar" (or
> sugars?), as in
> Reducing sugar (as maltose): 1-2.5%
> What the heck is he talking about?
Reducing sugars are the additives that are put into sweets to help
people lose weight. I'm sure you've seen tabloids tout diets such
as the "Ice Cream Diet" with claims like "eat all you want and
still lose weight". Well, now you know how these diets work:
reducing sugars.
;-) ;-) ;-)
Phil Miller
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 10:25:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS@UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: nice timimg, liquid yeast
Hmmm, interesting placement of articles about Wyeast #1007 in the last
digest, dontcha think?
Someone mentioned that their brew fermented with Wyeast 1056 tasted thin.
I've noticed that any brew fermented with Wyeast *seems* thinner than those
done with other (ie. dry) yeast. First, the Wyeast is usually going to be
more attenutative, leaving a dryer beer, which can seem thinner
than what you're used to. But I think more importantly, the Wyeast will
ferment *cleaner*, meaning there are a lot less Funky Flavors(tm) and a much
smoother feel and taste, so the beer might seem watery (that's the word),
again compared to what you're used to. Drink a few liquid yeast fermented
brews, then go back to a dry yeast brew, and compare. What was once
"watery" will now be "smooth".
Russ
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 09:38 CDT
From: ZLPAJGN%LUCCPUA.bitnet@UICVM.UIC.EDU
Subject: Bud ads
Dear Brewers,
Has anyone seen the latest series of (Oh, no! they're going to be made
into "Info-Soaps"... to-be-continued types) advertizements from Bud?
They almost seem to be taking their cues from Miller light (admirable
product that it is...NOT!) It starts with a "tastes great / less
filling" type of psudo-debate, only they're arguing over whether "its
the rice! / It's the hops!"
When I saw this, I gaffawed! RICE?! And they're advertizing it?!
I've always thought that rice was added to beer to stretch it - "cut"
it, if you will. I think I remember Papezian addressing this as well
in reference to the history of Beer in America, especially in post-
WWII modernity. (Sit tight, critical theorists, this is the HBD, not
the PSN :-)
Just an observation...
John
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 08:56:32 -0700
From: mcnally@wsl.dec.com
Subject: re: keeping lauter buckets warm
Here are two techniques I use to keep my grain warm in the lauter
bucket:
* I bought some nifty "insulation" stuff at a local hardware store
(Minton's for those in the South Bay or Mt. View). It's composed
of two layers of plastic bubble wrap---the stuff you use to pack
fragile things for shipping if you can resist popping all the
bubbles---coated on both sides with reflective mylar film. It's
very light and reasonably cleanable. A layer of that stuff wrapped
around my lauter bucket works great.
* I have one of those little Rival electric burner elements. I keep
it on "high" and rest the collection pan for recirculation on top
of it. Thus, the wort does not drop in temperature during the
recirculation phase. These burner elements cost about $15 and are
available at any "drug store" (Walgreen's, Long's, Pay Less, etc.).
With these two additions to the normal setup, I can easily keep the
grain bed at about 165 degrees. Neither the insulation nor the
burner were (what I consider) expensive.
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally mcnally@wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 11:10 EST
From: STROUD <STROUD%GAIA@leia.polaroid.com>
Subject: Reducing Sugars
In HBD 972 <Spencer.W.Thomas@med.umich.edu> asks:
>I started reading Belgian Ale last night, and came across a term in
>the "profiles" that is not explained (as far as I can see) anywhere in
>the book (yes, I looked in the glossary, but I can't remember if I
>consulted the index, so be gentle if it's in there). The term is
>"Reducing sugar" (or sugars?), as in
> Reducing sugar (as maltose): 1-2.5%
>What the heck is he talking about?
Chemically speaking, reducing sugars are carbohydrates that reduce Fehling's
reagent (alkaline cupric ion solution complexed with tartrate ion) or Tollens'
reagent (a solution of silver ammonia ion).
The important thing here is that all monosaccharides are reducing sugars and
most disaccharides (including maltose) are reducing sugars. Sucrose (table
sugar) is a notable exception. It is a non-reducing sugar.
Looking at Rajotte's "Belgian Ale" book, it is not clear to me whether the
line
Reducing sugar (as maltose): 1-2.5%
means that 1-2.5% of the reducing sugars left are maltose or whether the final
composition of the beer contains 1-2.5% reducing sugars. I suspect the latter.
Just another example of where a little better editing could help this book.
Isn't it too bad that Pierre isn't connected to HBD like George Fix is? :-)
- --
Steve Stroud <stroud%gaia@polaroid.com>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In heaven there is lots of good beer, but that won't stop me from getting a
head start as long as I'm here
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 08:59:27 -0700
From: Bob Konigsberg <bobk@NSD.3Com.COM>
Subject: Wine Questions
I'm posting because all mail to mgx@soild(or solid).ssd.ornl.gov is
bouncing. If you'd like to "talk" more, email me @ bobk@nsd.3Com.com.
No experience with asceptic grape juice in bags, since we make ours starting
with grapes.
As for fermentation, we do the wine fermentation in covered plastic barrels,
but not airtight. I'm not sure what analogy to draw, since ours has grape
skins (red wine) and seeds in there. My neighbors do Chardonnay in carboys,
but they're in an ice water bath to slow the fermentation down. My guess is
that at ambient temperatures in the 70's a 6.5 gallon carboy would safely
hold 5 gallons, but much more and you're pushing your luck. It would be
better to buy and sterilize a covered plastic garbage pail of about 10 gallons
capacity. Prior to using it, wash it very thoroughly with chlorinated TSP
for both sanitation, and to remove any oils left from the manufacturing
process.
Wine yeasts are more robust than their beer cousins, and will do just fine.
You would also need to do at least a 1 quart starter prior to pitching
or breaking the seal on your bag of grape juice. A 1 day start is ok,
2 days is better. Use concord grape juice for red wine, apple juice for
white wine. The frozen concentrates in the grocery store are fine. By
the way, some stores carry a RED concord, so you get a better color
match in that respect.
Peter Nesbitt asks questions regarding:
1) Longneck Bottles => Don't use twist-offs; The thin lip is fragile,
and can break during capping. In addition, if you don't have the
right capper, you may not get as good a seal on the bottles. As
far as obtaining them, around here, some liquor stores will "sell" you
cases of longnecks.
2) Secondary Tanks => the purpose of a secondary is to allow the
initial fermentation to finish gracefully while not on the trub from
the fermentation. Allowing the beer to sit on the trub can allow
autolysis (east digesting its spent cousins), and does terrible things
to the flavor of the beer. It is really not a "second" fermentation per
se, since there has been no added sugar at this point. The bottle priming
is a true second fermentation.
3) Fermentation Completion => The yeast go dormant, but there are enough
of them in suspension to do the second fermentation for bottle conditioning.
BobK
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 11:13:12 CDT
From: tony@spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: draft pilsner urquell arrives in chicago!
Yes, it's true. A number of us were sampling the beer lineup
at Berghoff's Festival, and we were discussing rumors we had heard.
We headed to O'Callahan's, in the River North area, and sure
enough it was on tap. Needless to say, we drank a few rounds.
My need to catch a train saved me from a long night :-) ! Of course,
I'll be back.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 12:21 CDT
From: korz@iepubj.att.com
Subject: Milling on-site
I don't know what percentage of brewpubs buy their grain pre-milled,
but of the four in the Chicago area that I know do all-grain, the two
Winekeller's buy their grain pre-milled, Berghoff's has a mill (Seiben's
used to mill their own, but I don't know for sure if Berghoff's, who
bought Seiben's, still does) and I don't know if Goose Island mills
their own (Tony? Steve?).
I'd like to point out that simple square footage is not the issue in
whether a brewpub has a mill or not. Milling should be done in a room set
aside for milling, which is isolated from the rest of the brewery (for
sanitation reasons -- grain dust is a great source for lactobacillus
- -- this is true for us homebrewer's too!) and equipped as an explosive
environment.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 10:44:58 -0700 (MST)
From: JLIDDIL@AZCC.Arizona.EDU
Subject: re iodophor
Sherrill writes:
> % Date: 17 Sep 92 14:14:00 +1700
> % From: SHERRILL_PAUL@Tandem.COM
> % Subject: Using Iodopher for sanitizing
> %
> % - ------------ ORIGINAL ATTACHMENT --------
> % SENT 09-17-92 FROM SHERRILL_PAUL @CTS
> %
> % I bought a little bottle of the above and was told to use 1 TBS per
> % 5 gallons and a 2 minute contact time. Doe sthis sound right. I
> % don't have a breakdown of the ingredients of the stuff with me but
> % if need be I'll bring them in.
> % Other questions:
> % 1. Should I rinse? I have been only out of worry. I was told to
> % not rinse.
> %
> % 2. Is this stuff ok for my plastic hoses?
> %
> % 3. How long would a bucket of this diluted in water still hold
> % it's magical cleaning powers?
The iododphor you bought should list the percent "available" iodine" .
Typically it is 1 %. This is 1 gram/ 100 milliliters. 10000mg/L or 10000
ppm
.
You want to use a solution of 12.5 ppm. This is a dilution of 1:800. This
is
1.25 ml/L. A gallon is equal to 3.785 liters. So you add 4.73 ml/gallon or
23.7 ml/5 gallons. A tbs is equal to half an ounce. An ounce is typically
about 30 ml so maybe your solution is more than 1% available iodine.
You should not rinse the level of 12.5 ppm is the recommended concentration
for
bars and resteraunts to use to rinse dishes and glasses with no rinsing. I
use
this amount or even 25 ppm to be safe and notice no taste problems. The FDA
allows up to 25 ppm in food. After things drain you have even less present.
It is safe for all your brewing equipment though your plastic may take on ab
rwon tinge with time. If you find it asthetically unpleasing soak your stuff
in bleach and the color will be gone.
I only make a gallon at a time. I did a test and found a 15.5 ppm solution
to be stabel fro only 30-40 hrs. I make it fresh each time I use it. You can
get
iodine test paper through a pharmacy sometimes or Williams Brewing in
California (510)895-2739 carrys it. Also the hardness of your water effects
stability. If you have more questions e-mail me.
___________________________________________________________________________
James D. Liddil Voice (602) 626-3958
Arizona Cancer Center
Tucson, AZ jliddil@azcc.arizona.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 12:44 CDT
From: korz@iepubj.att.com
Subject: Mill control
Paul writes:
>The plus of having your own mill is that it's just one more variable you
>get to control/goof up. How much is that worth?
It can also be one less variable that your suppliers can goof up. Of the
seven or so homebrew supply shops that I've bought from, one owner is
more experienced than I am (it's Tim Norris, btw), one has been a homebrewer
longer that I have, but he brews all extract and he always asks me for my
advise on how to improve his beers, and all the rest had little or no
brewing experience. I wouldn't trust them to mill grain for my bread let
alone my beer. Quality control is worth a lot.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 16:03 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571@mcimail.com>
Subject: Why crush your own grain?
There's been a good bit of discussion regarding the necessity of having
one's own grain mill, and as a (lame) beginner in the mash department
I've noticed one factor that hasn't been mentioned yet.
I've done two partial mashes so far. For the second one I ordered my grain
pre-crushed at a very reasonable price from a leading East-Coast homebrew
supply house. The problem was that even a beginner like me could tell
that the crush was much, much too coarse. Having read that it's better
to go too coarse than to turn the stuff to flour in a blender, I decided
to brew anyway. Well, the yield was about 30%, and if I hadn't had
lots of DME and candi sugar it would have been a total loss. Fortunately
a friend with a Corona mill helped me grind the remaining malt to the
proper consistancy.
While it's obviously going to take a long time to pay for a mill at
$0.10 per pound, and on the other hand it's nice to have the equipment,
the fact is that one reason to have the mill is to have the control you
need. Have I bought one yet? No--I'm trying one more supplier, and if
this doesn't work out, I'll take the plunge.
By the way, I don't mention the name of the poorly-crushed grain supplier
because I've yet to call them to complain; this may have been an aberration,
and I hate for anybody to get a bad rep if they don't deserve it.
Anyway, my new motto is: LAME, AND PROUD OF IT!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 11:27:35 PDT
From: Richard Childers <rchilder@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Answers
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 05:00 GMT
> From: Peter Nesbitt <0005111312@mcimail.com>
> Subject: Questions part II
>
> - I'm having trouble finding true long-necks. Should I absolutely not use
> twist off bottles? I've asked almost every eating establishment in town,
> but they will not give up their returnables.
Twist tops work for me, in emergencies. Others ( Jack Scmidling ) have used
plastic bottles. Experimentation is indicated, your mileage may vary, etc.
> - What is the purpose of a secondary fermentation tank. My first batch
> uses this method, but doesn't require me to add anything, and doesn't
> give a reason for doing this.
The transfer of liquids leaves a lot of sediment ( trub ) behind, making for
a clearer, cleaner beer. Also, beer in a secondary fermenter can be left there
and will be fairly stable, for lack of these aforementioned sediments.
> - When my fermentation is nearing completion, does the yeast go into a dor-
> -mant state or just die?
Both. There will always be living yeast cells in your solution, unless you
boil it or filter it. These cells can be recovered and recycled into your
next batch, incidentally.
> - When the priming sugar is added at bottling time, does this "revive" the
> yeast, or just cause some sort of chemical reaction to cause carbonation?
It revives the yeast. They eat it, excrete CO2 and ethanol, and multiply.
> Thanks again for helping a new guy out!
Welcome to the peerage ... (-:
- -- richard
=====
- -- richard childers rchilder@us.oracle.com 1 415 506 2411
oracle data center -- unix systems & network administration
Klein flask for rent. Inquire within.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 11:07 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc@vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: preground vs pre-preground
There's alot of discussion about preground malt versus whole malt.
Obviously there are advantages and disadvantages to both, some trivial,
some not so trivial. I think your decision should be based on which type
of malt fits into your brewing procedure best. Some people prefer
preground while others prefer to grind their own. What ever flips up
your skirt. I have had great beers from both.
I feel the more pressing issue is not which form of malt to purchase but
how to store the malt. Long term shelf life will adversely affect malt
regardless of form yet preground suffers sooner.
An air-tight container, in conjunction with some form of desiccant, is
probably the best way to go. For small amounts, I have found that old
plastic containers are great for the 1 - 5 lb range. Clorox bottles,
milk and water jugs all work great. A recent addition has been the new
type of cat litter containers. They hold about 5 lbs and have wide
mouths.
For larger amounts of malt some homebrewers prefer containers large
enough to hold 100 lbs. Myself and other indolent ectomorphs prefer
smaller containers. I have found that the 5 gallon plastic buckets with
snap-on lids answer the call with gusto. They are designed to be stacked
and 100 lbs of malt can be split up into 4 or 5 buckets so that while
using one bucket of malt, the other portions of malt stay sealed. These
buckets are usually free for the asking and can be obtained through
numerous sources.
Extract breweries are a good place to start as their buckets are the most
prized. Their extract comes in buckets with notoriously tenacious
snap-on lids that have built-in o-ring seals. They hold 25 lbs of grain
and have no residual odors.
The local bakery. Most wet ingredients a bakery uses are shipped in
buckets. My local bakery, small by comparison, generate about a dozen
buckets a week. Slightly smaller, these buckets hold 20 lbs of grain and
sometimes have rather pleasant residual odors. Of the buckets I have
received, one smelled of chocolate as it held chocolate filling, another
smelled of raspberries as it held red raspberry preserves and another
smelled of marzipan (yum!). These smells didn't scrub out, bleach out or
dissipate in sunlight so I reserved the stronger smelling buckets for
dark malts. It's kind of a game to try to marry malts with buckets that
have complimenting smells. Chocolate malt and the chocolate filling
bucket. You get the picture.
Lastly, restaurants are a good source but at times supply can be spotty.
They are similar to the malt extract buckets. And talk about residual
smells. I've received a bucket that smelled of kosher pickles, another
of sauerkraut and another of squid (blech!). As these odors didn't come
out with conventional chemical weapons and I obviously had no malts of a
complimenting aroma, these buckets now hold tomato(e) plants.
Gee honey, I haven't a clue why that cats hang around that one tomato
plant.
chris campanelli
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 11:08 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc@vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: cider/mead forums
I understand there are forums for cider and mead. Could someone please
email me the addresses? Thanks in advance.
chris campanelli
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 13:39:26 CDT
From: bliss@csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: Dallas Brewpubs?
Can I have a Brian Treat?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 16:51:15 CDT
From: gjfix@utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Yield
Yield as it is normally defined is the percent of a grains weight
that is converted into wort sugars (both fermentable and nonfermentable).
Most barley malt familiar to me typically has a carbohydrate concentration
which ranges from 80 to 85% of its weight, with the lower end being more
common. This means that using a malt rate of 1 lb. per gallon would result
in at most .8 to .85 lbs. of wort sugars per gallon of wort. Converting to
to metric, this is equal to 9.6 to 10.2 grams extract per 100 ml. of wort.
>From the Balling Tables we see that this is equivalent to 9.3 to 9.8 grams
extract per 100 grams of wort (i.e., percent by weight or degrees Plato
if you like). The Balling Tables also show that this is equivalent
to a specific gravity of 1.037 to 1.039. Thus, it would appear that a malt rate
of 1 lb. per gallon could give at most 37 to 39 gravity points, and that this
is equivalent to a 80 to 85% yield.
In my system I get nowhere near the maximum rate. In a step infusion mash I
typically get around a 65% yield, or what is the same, 30 gravity points per
unit malt rate . I am getting a bit more with the Belgium malts. By the
way, this drops to a 60% yield (or 28 points) in a single stage mash.
I believe the difference lies in the action of alpha-amylase enzymes in
their role as liquifying enzymes, which is to be distinguished from their
role as starch converters. In particular, they seem to do better in the former
role at temperatures below 60C (140F), and this leads to better yields. Having
said this I have seen no other differences between the these two mashing
techniques vis-a-vis beer quality, assuming of course that everything else is
equal.
I have often been asked about the yields reported in Dave Miller's books. I
consider him a good friend (we have each dedicated books to one another), but
I must say that Dave's mashing procedures are unorthdox. In particular, as a
homebrewer he did a massive amount of mash recycling (to use Micah's term), and
that with a step infusion mash will give the high yields he quotes. He is now a
commercial brewer using a BRD system, a company for which I consult. He
uses a single step mash in his St. Louis brew pub, but retains his preference
for high extraction rates through extensive recycling. In fact, in a company
site visit last April, he wowed one and all with a full 2 hrs. of recycling.
I do not happen to brew this way, and my ideas about these matters are much
closer to Micah's. However, this is Dave's style, this is the way he likes
to brew beer, and I feel that each of us get to call our own shoots about
such matters. The brew pub (St. Louis Brewing) is doing very well by the way.
George Fix
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 11:43:01 CDT
From: whg@tellabs.com
Subject: Wyeast #1007
My limited experience with 1007 was definatley similar, thinkkk
kraeusen that floated on top forever. I racked off this after a
week o a little less. Both beers I made with this yeast cleared
quickely after racking. The beers were clean but frankly boring.
This is the "cleanest" fermenting yeast I've every used. So clean
that it IMHO beats all the character right out of the wort. I've
been told the same thing by other very reputable sources
(tony@ssps.com (can't say I personally know of any more reputable
source)). FWIW the #1338 European is my yeast of choose for
Kolsch and Alt's.
Walter Gude || whg@tellabs.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 19:51:51 PDT
From: Mark N. Davis <mndavis@pbhya.PacBell.COM>
Subject: Questions about hop vines
Greets Brew-brethen,
I've been reading quite a bit about all of you hop vine growers and your
experiences in the past 10 or so HBD's. It wouldn't happen to have anything
to do with harvest season, now would it? But it got me to thinking...
There's a spot at my house on the way to the front door, where the previous
owner, for some unknown reason, erected a sort of awning frame, which extends
over the walkway. It occurred to me that if I could find some sort of vine
(see the connection?) to grow up from the planter next to the house, up the
wall, and across the framework, it would make sort of a vegetation tunnel.
The questions are:
1) Do hop vines make for attractive plants? Are different species more or
less attractive than other?
2) My planter is just a 1' wide strip of dirt next to a concrete walkway. Its
about 15' long. Is this enough ground to support enough hop vines to form
a nice wall o' cones?
3) How will hop vines react to being corralled horizontly once they reach the
framework, which is about 10' high?
4) Do the fresh cones give off such an aroma that guest walking into my house
will demand at gunpoint that I serve them homebrews until they drop?
Thanks in advance for any answers. Hoppy harvest to all of you farmers.
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1992 00:31:15 -0500
From: Todd Enders - WD0BCI <enders@plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: Chimay & banana update...
Well, the latest sampling of the banana trippel is most promising! The
banana flavour and aroma is subsiding nicely, and the spice and some bubblegum
are coming through after 4 weeks in the bottle. Another month or two, and
it'll be so good I'll hardly be able to stand it! :-) I suspect that one
has to have Benedictine patience to wait for something brewed with Chimay
yeast to come around. :-)
One thing, though... I think the banana ester production is highly
dependant on the SG of the brew. I didn't notice any high levels of esters
in my starter (about 1.025 OG). A dubbel at about 1.060-1.065 will come
together faster than a trippel starting at 1.070+ I don't know just how
long they condition Chimay in the bottle before they ship it, but I suspect
it's longer than 4 weeks.
So my personal advice is not to worry alot about the banana ester level
at bottling or shortly (1-2 weeks) thereafter. It just takes time for a
strong brew to come together. Brew it and stash it away for a couple months
or so, and prepare to be rewarded! :-) IMHO, Chimay yeast, obtained from
whatever source, does a fine job, and the taste is worth waiting for! :-)
Now, if I can isolate the proper strain from the 5 strain melange that
is Orval...
===============================================================================
Todd Enders - WD0BCI ARPA: enders@plains.nodak.edu
Computer Center UUCP: ...!uunet!plains!enders
Minot State University or: ...!hplabs!hp-lsd!plains!enders
Minot, ND 58701 Bitnet: enders@plains
"The present would be full of all possible futures,
if the past had not already projected a pattern upon it" - Andre' Gide
===============================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 09:19:51 EDT
From: joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Subject: That Yummy Malt Flavor
This is a thread I've been pushing on r.c.b for a while now. I thought
that some of you Digest readers, in particular George Fix, might have
some more authoritative answers for me, considering the thread on
Belgian malts etc. that has gone on here for a while.
I'm looking for the right combination of ingredients needed to produce
the BIG, round, caramely, yummy malt flavor found in (for example)
MacAndrews Scotch Ale, Ayinger Celebrator, Ayinger Oktober-Fest, even
Pilsner-Urquell. I believe that the missing ingredient is British
or Continental 2-row pale and/or crystal malt.
I've gotten replies from brewers in the UK and Europe who have said,
"What's the big deal?" and have given me recipes that use 10-15% crystal
.. just like my recipes. Sorry, but the malt I've used (with at
least 1/2 dozen different ale yeasts, and several lager yeasts) just
doesn't work the same! This includes British 2-row, some British
crystal, lots of Klages, American crystal, etc.
I tried a friend of a friend's brew that used 30-40% crystal (!).
It was indeed round and caramely, but had some other troubles.
I don't believe that the yeast is directly responsible for this character.
Certainly the choice of yeast can affect body, dryness, fruitiness,
etc., but I don't think that yeast makes or removes much of the deep
caramely flavor that I am looking for. Those of you with some sophisticated
knowledge of sensory perception are welcome to agree with or correct
me.
If someone out there has made, say, a MacAndrews clone that tastes
truly similar to the real thing, I'd appreciate a recipe, along with
the name of the maltster, mashing details, yeast used, etc.
My next step will be to get my hands on some more British crystal
(which Fred Eckhardt claims affects the flavor of beer much more than
American crystal), and some German Pilsner malt, and try brewing with
that. Unless, of course, some of you have better ideas. (Please?)
uunet!joebloe!joseph (609) 273-8200 day joseph%joebloe@uunet.uu.net
v v sssss | Certified Guru: all-grain brewing,| 2102 Ryan's Run East
v v s s | C, synthesizer comp & arranging, | Rt 38 & 41
v sss | photography. Also not a bad cook. | Maple Shade NJ 08052
- -----My employer isn't paying for this, and my opinions are my own-----
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1992 07:44:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf@henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: re premilling (slack vs strike temp)
On Fri, 18 Sep 1992, Chip Hitchcock wrote:
> slack grain has a higher mass due to absorbed water, hence you need more
> energy to raise this mass from room temp to mashing temp, hence higher
> strike temp. (you might need even higher strike temp in order to use less
> water at mash-in, since there's already more water in the grain than
> expected by standard recipes).
Absolutely. The part I don't get is on p. 259 in Malting and Brewing
science, where "slaking heat" (gram-cals/degree) is used to figure strike
heats. I don't get it, so here's the formula and table:
Paraphased from _Malting and Brewing Science_ by Hough, Briggs and Stevens
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Initial heat = St + RT + 1/2H
--------- ------
S + R S + R
S - Specific heat of malt
t - temperature of malt
R - ratio of liquor to grist by weight
T - temperature of the liquor (strike heat)
H - slaking heat of the malt in gram-cals/degree temperature
The expression is applicable to both centigrade and fahrenheit providing
terms are expressed in the appropriate units.
Table 10.1:
Specific heat and slaking heat of a malt at various moisture contents
slaking heat (gram-cals) at
% moisture specific heat mashing temp of 150F
0 0.38 33.5
1 0.38 29.0
2 0.39 25.0
4 0.40 18.8
6 0.41 14.5
8 0.42 12.4
[from the accompanying examples, it appears that these figures are
appropriate for degrees F.]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-end of plagiaristic paraphrase
I still don't get what going on, nor do I see why slack malt should have a
huge effect on yeilds. There is no mention of reduced yeilds for slack
malt, either here or the other places I've looked. I frequently grind the
day before, or sometimes earlier, so this enquiring mind would like to know.
paul
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 1992 15:40:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: homebrew@tso.uc.EDU (Ed Westemeier)
Subject: Novice hop farmer's report
Hop Farming for Fun
Let me start off by explaining that I'm nowhere even close to thinking of
myself as an expert. In fact, I really don't know beans about hops,
except that I like 'em in my beer -- lots of 'em!
Anyway, on the Saturday pub crawl through Boston after the 1991 AHA
conference, my group got the grand tour of the Boston Brewing Co. from
none other than Jim Koch himself (Mr. Sam Adams). Jim also likes hops,
and he talked a lot about the benefits of fresh hops as well as (much to
my surprise) the benefits of _aged_ hops (that's another story). So I
started taking a more serious interest in them.
I had called Freshops in Oregon early last spring and ordered four
rhizomes: Cascade, Hallertauer, Northern Brewer and Saaz. The rhizomes
came through in fine shape, well packed and marked: four slightly damp
scraggly roots, each about five inches long and the thickness of a pencil.
I planted them according to directions, and waited.
Last year they all grew pretty well, and I just let them go pretty much
where they wanted. I actually harvested about 1/3 of an ounce (dried
weight) from the Cascade, about a dozen cones from the Hallertauer, and
nothing from the others.
This year, I did it somewhat closer to right. First, I trimmed off all
but two shoots from each variety (the trimmings were delicious, but that's
another story). I planted poles and let the vines climb up some twine. I
got over four ounces (dried) from the Cascade, a little over an ounce from
the Hallertauer, about a dozen cones from the Northern Brewer, and nothing
from the Saaz. Th Cascade and Hallertauer grew to almost 20 feet, the
Northern Brewer 12 feet, and the Saaz less than 10 feet.
OK, some varieties do better than others. I can handle that. But nothing
from the Saaz two years in a row? I asked a couple of people at the AHA
conference in Milwaukee this year about them, and one person told me that
I shouldn't expect anything from the Saaz before the third year. Well,
maybe so, but I decided that I knew better. Since the Saaz vine gets a
bit less sun than the others, I decided that was the problem so I resolved
to dig it up and transplant it to another location. After digging down a
little, I got a real surprise. The Saaz main taproot is now as thick as
my wrist! Obviously, it's putting all its energy into growth below ground
level, and I have high hopes for it next year.
By the way, I should mention that I haven't fertilized any of them, just
dumped a little compost around the roots from time to time. The
conventional wisdom is that hops don't grow very well below 40 degrees of
latitude (I'm at 39) but some of them seem to like this area just fine.
I don't know what the alpha acid percentage is in my homegrown hops, but
then I don't really need to know. I can buy hops for bittering and the
supplier will tell me down to a tenth of a percent. I can use my own for
dry hopping where the percentage doesn't matter much, and I'll know that
I'm using the freshest hops around.
- -- Ed Westemeier Cincinnati, Ohio
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 92 14:37:24 PDT
From: mdcsc!gdh@uunet.UU.NET (Garrett Hildebrand)
Subject: Re: Apple Cider
Hard apple cider is not particularly hard to make. I have been using
the following simple method with great success. Beer making veterans
may be aghast at the lack of controls, but it does work just fine.
1 Gallon bottle of pure apple cider, no sugar added.
1 small can of apple cider or apple juice concentrate, frozen
1 packet of champagne or ale yeast.
- square of saran wrap
- rubber band
Open the apple cider and pour out enough to leave headroom down to
where the bottle is no longer curved in. Drink what you pour out or
save it for something else.
Add in 1/2 of the frozen concentrate. If you have lost the headroom,
you did not pour enough out, so pour out some more.
Shake it up real good, then add in the yeast and shake it up some
more.
Put the saran wrap over the bottle mouth, wet, so it slips around a bit
and is not making an air-tight seal. Place a rubber band around the
neck near the top. The idea is to keep things from getting into the
bottle, but act like an air-lock thus letting blow-off out. Don't make
a big deal out of this step.
Put the bottle in the sink or on a place on the countertop and let it
sit out for two to three days, then put it in the refridgerator.
*** At no time should you cap the bottle or it will explode ***
Beginning with the third day you can start drinking the stuff. It will
change in character from day to day. The longer you let it sit the less
sweet and the more alchoholic it gets. If you leave it long enough it
will clarify.
Mine never lasts that long.
You can play around with sterilization and pasturization and air-locks
and what-not, but it never made mine taste any better. Stay loose.
Garrett
- ------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1992 13:06 CST
From: Robert Schultz <SCHULTZ@admin1.usask.ca>
Subject: mass of DME
I'm sure this has crossed the HBD, but I can't seem to find it ....
Can anyone tell me the weight of 1 cup of DME?
Is there any/much weight difference in light to dark DME?
Thanks, please email replies.
Robert Schultz.
p.s. Thanks to all who responded wrt to my posting on cider information,
the wealth of information and those willing to share it are an
invaluable resource! How can people brew without the HBD???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'm going off half-cocked? I'm going off half-cocked? ...
Well, Mother was right - You can't argue with a shotgun." - Gary Larson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #973, 09/21/92
*************************************
-------
