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HOMEBREW Digest #0800
This file received at Mthvax.CS.Miami.EDU 92/01/13 03:13:51
HOMEBREW Digest #800 Mon 13 January 1992
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
More on Redistribution (rdg)
re:camra (DBA-CRI)" <CRIPRT@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Re: mashing/boiling vessels (Mike Sharp)
Word rappin' (BAUGHMANKR)
*Real* Rad Equipment 8-) (wbt)
chicago brewpubs, bars, stores (semi-long) (Tony Babinec)
Water Treatments (Bob Jones)
Long Tall Lauter Tun (GEOFF REEVES)
Surface oxygen & fermentation (GEOFF REEVES)
WHAT THE HELLES (Charlie Papazian/Boulder)
Re: Radioactive isotopes used in breweries (John Dilley)
glass, crystal, toasted (Bob Fozard)
Radioactive isotopes and breweries (Michael L. Hall)
Homebrew Digest #799 (January 10, 1992) (Michael Mahler)
Weisse vs. Weizen (korz)
storytime (fermenter blowups) (Arthur Delano)
Sour Mash Answers (Bob Jones)
New Brewer (kbrunell)
Historical Homebrew ( no. 2) (Robb Holmes)
copper (chip upsal)
Homebrew Malt Qualities (joshua.grosse)
How to put caffeine and anise in beer? (Jacob Galley)
Send submissions to homebrew@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib@mthvax.cs.miami.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 16:32:46 MST
From: rdg@hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Subject: More on Redistribution
Thanks to all who offered to set up redistribution points to reduce
the network traffic caused by the digest. I've saved all your letters
and will contact you if and when I decide that it's really necessary.
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 12:47 CET
From: "R.P.M. Tebarts (DBA-CRI)" <CRIPRT@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re:camra
A dutch organisation like CAMRA is
PINT (promotion and information on traditional beers) which spells
PINT in the dutch lanquage . Pint is also slang for a lager in the
pub.
the adress : PINT
P.O. box 3757
1001 AN Amsterdam
the Netherlands
They public a magazine in the dutch lanquage 6 times a year.
Dutch membership costs DFl. 30,- per year .
A belgium organisation is
De objectieve bierproevers
P.O. box 32
2600 Berchem 5
Belgium.
Botch organisations and CAMRA work together on european rules for
brewers. They are all consumer organistions.
I hope this information will help.
Rob Tebarts
mail : CRIPRT@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 7:20:50 EST
From: Mike Sharp <msharp@cs.ulowell.edu>
Subject: Re: mashing/boiling vessels
Bob Jones <BJONES@NOVA.llnl.gov> writes:
> I tried your idea on a recirculating mash tun, al la R. Morris/Zymurgy.
> I screwed around with it for about a year, and had BAD luck. The problem
> most likely is with the mash tun geometry. Too tall a mash tun will cause
> too much grain compaction therefore slowing the flow thereby burning or
> overheating the liquid.
I think you have the wrong picture. The mash tun is ~1.5' high with a
diameter of 2'. I don't expect to use it at anything near its capacity.
If anything I thought this would be a bit on the short side. The boiler
is the tall skinny vessel. I couldn't see any reason why it couldn't be
(& kegs are cheap too).
FWIW, the boiler (made of two kegs welded one on top of the other) won't
be used at capacity either. Since my targetted batch size will be about 15.5
gallons (the oak casks I use are 15gal) post boil, I wanted enough room
for the initial wort (figuring a 4-6 hour boil -- traditional for lambics)
as well as a little room left over for the inevitable attempt at boil over.
> Also there is a problem with just how much heat
> or energy you can get from household voltage.
Yes, I'm somewhat concerned about this. I'm going to have to experiment.
The area in which I brew has a 40A 220V line. I'll just keep adding more
water heater elements to the boiler until I can get ~18-20gal to boil.
I don't have any delusions about doing this quickly. Current plan is to
wire the heaters to run at 110 so I don't go scorching everything during
the boil. I'm not sure if I'll wind up running them at 110 or 220. Time
will tell.
> You can get much more energy from a burner of any sort.
Quite true, however I believe my landlord would be quite upset when I ran
this in my appartment. Not to mention there is the problem of not melting
through the flooring and the in-flow/out-flow of air. I've worked out
numerous burner designs, but having to run ducting through the apartment
as well as the noise of a burner running full blast has lead me to scrap
the idea. Then there is the general danger of a 200KBTU burner running
in a 10x12 room...
Trivia question for the physically capable: Hot water heater elements are
sold with ratings like 9KW. Does anyone know how I'd go about figuring the
BTU output (assuming that its running full blast for an hour)? I'm sure
I could figure it out if I dug out Halliday&Resnick, but someone out there
must know...
ARF -- ??why??
> From: arf@gagme.chi.il.us (jack schmidling)
> Subject: ADS
> Subject: STUFF
Jack! Get a clue! I've never seen such an utter waste of bandwidth.
Please do a quick reality check and realize that these postings were
made quite a while ago. I'd rather not read your tirades that time forgot.
As far as using this as a tool to redeem yourself in the eyes of HBD
and for besmirching those that opposed/offended you, it just makes you
look like a fool. (said in a moderate, instructional, matter of fact
voice, NOT a beligerant, ranting, attacking one).
ARF -- his grain mill
FWIW, I did like the review of your grain mill. sounds like an interesting
unit. Did you make the supporting castings yourself or were they left-overs
from something else? I've wound up going the route of welded plates due to
casting costs. Did you wind up using stainless for the rollers or some
form of tool steel? I've been thinking about a tool steel approach but
I'm somewhat worried about someone trying to clean the unit (mine) by popping
it in the dishwasher. Perhaps I just need a big sticker on the side
that says 'Dont even think about getting this wet.'
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1992 10:29 EDT
From: BAUGHMANKR@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: Word rappin'
>(Kinny, is this more readable? This is using hard returns instead of word wrap.
>I too have problems with some posts running off the edge, although I think it's
>people with word wrap who go beyond column 80 that bug my machine, such as it
>is.)
Thanks, Lee. I had no problem reading your post. The first two lines
above went right to column 79. With the quoting '>'s, they go to
column 80, which completely fills my screen--a point of comparison
for you guys. I've never had problems reading Lee's posts so
evidently the problem isn't word wrap but, as he suggests, margin
settings that extend past column 80.
Thanks for all the helpful responses. I'm still working on a fix from
my end. Anyone know the command to force carriage returns within
specified margin settings on a VMS system running on a Dec VAX?
Cheers ya'll,
Kinney Baughman | Beer is my business and
baughmankr@conrad.appstate.edu | I'm late for work.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
For all you guys into beer lappin'.
There's a new rage now... word rappin'.
Rap that terminal, tap them keys.
But set those margins at 75 please!
"Hey! Somebody get him outta here!"
<Enter long cane from stage left...>
My apologies to Bob Devine, head poet of this society.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 10:25:59 EST
From: wbt@cbema.att.com
Subject: *Real* Rad Equipment 8-)
> From: Peter Karp <karp@cs.columbia.edu>
> Subject: Radioactive isotopes used in breweries
>
> But also mentioned were breweries that apparently
> used radioactive isotopes for measuring the level of beer in bottles.
> Does anyone know how this method works?
I've never seen these used for beer bottling, but the technique is probably
to pass the bottle through a "gage." On one side of the bottle is a chunk
of radioactive isotope as a radiation source; on the other side is a
detector. The radiation is attenuated (i.e. partly blocked/absorbed) as
it passes through the beer, so if the radiation level "dims" far enough you
know there is beer between the source and detector; and thus that the
bottle is full to the height of the detector.
Similar methods are used for things like measuring the thickness of paper
or coming off a mill.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker AT&T Network Systems - Columbus cbema!wbt
Quality Engineer Network Wireless Systems wbt@cbnews.att.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 10:25:13 CST
From: tony@spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: chicago brewpubs, bars, stores (semi-long)
Here are some Chicago area brewpubs and bars.
The Goose Island Brewery is at 1800 N. Clybourn, which is north of North
and west of Halsted. On tap are a Kolsch (the only one in America?),
a Pilsner, and a Pale Ale (very good, with slight biscuit and
diacetyl notes). You'll also find seasonals and specialties.
Recently, they've had an IPA. There's ample parking nearby. You can
also eat there, the food's pretty good. I'll plug it again: if
you're in town on the first Thursday of the month, there's an informal
homebrew get-together too!
The Berghoff Brewery is on west Ontario past Orleans and the
expressway ramp. Recently, they've featured a light (dort), a dark
(American dark), Octoberfest, as well as several ales (amber ale,
porter, stout). You can also get Berghoff beer at the Berghoff
restaurant in The Loop. Go to the standup bar on ground level.
The Weinkellar is in Berwyn, and therefore not accessible to downtown
stayers without a car. Take the Eisenhower to Austin, exit and go
south to Roosevelt Road, then go west on Roosevelt for a mile or two.
It's on the south side of the street. Their own beers on tap include
an amber ale, several wheat beers (filtered Weizen, hefe-Weizen, and
Berliner Weiss), and I don't remember what else. Some of their
specialty beers (Doppelbock, Octoberfest) have been very good. They
also have hundreds of brands of beers for sale in the bar and an
adjacent store. It's an interesting ethnic neighborhood bar.
Tap and Growler is on Jackson, two blocks west of Halsted, in the old
Greektown neighborhood. They get Chicago Stadium traffic (Da Bulls,
Blackhawks) coming and going. The neighborhood is definitely "urban,"
so don't wander off too far in any direction. T&G got a bad
reputation a few years ago for, shall I say, indifference to the
quality of its beer, but appears to be making amends. On tap recently
were an Irish ale and a stout. *Chicago-area homebrewers and beer
aficianodos note*: the 1992 Chicago Beer Society membership meeting
will be at Tap and Growler on Sunday, February 2, early afternoon.
Sam's Liquors on North Avenue just west of Halsted has a great
selection of U.S. and imported beers, not to mention wine, single
malt scotch, etc. Stock up!
Quencher's, at Fullerton and Western, has 15-20 taps and a couple
hundred brands of beer in the cooler. Those of you on the coasts
(especially Pacific) are used to this, but we're only just beginning
to see the many-taps phenomenon here.
An old German neighborhood, roughly at Lincoln and Damen, has a number
of German bars, including Lashett's, Riese's, and Von Stuke's (I'm not
sure about any of those spellings). You'll find multiple beers on
tap at any of these, plus get a sense of what Chicago and dozens of
other cities must have been like years ago.
Chicago and area micro beers to look for include:
Chicago Brewing Co.--Legacy Lager (won European Pilsner category
at 1991 Gr. Am. Beer Fest), Legacy Red Ale, and seasonals (Heartland
Weiss is the only one so far, and probably the best bottled
American-made German Weizen I've tasted, with some of that "clove"
character).
Baderbrau, a dark-ish pilsner.
Kalamazoo Brewery beers, including Bell's Beer, Bell's Amber,
a good porter, a very good Third Coast Old Ale, and others.
(Larry Bell does multiple homebrew-size mashes to fill his
fermenter, and in the end bottles or kegs it!)
Capital Brewery (Madison, Wisconsin) beers.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1992 08:37 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES@NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Water Treatments
When making water treatments to try and match typical brewing styles,
what water should one treat. This concern mostly is for grain brewers.
I usually treat only the mash strike water, but then a sparge with twice
as much untreated water. Is it adequate to only try and duplicate the
mash environment or should we try and duplicate the water in sparge?
Did anyone know of a common source for calcium chloride, like at the
grocery store.
Bob Jones
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 09:55:02 -0700
From: 105277@essdp1.lanl.gov (GEOFF REEVES)
Subject: Long Tall Lauter Tun
> Having read about the A-B coffee can lautering system experiment
> (I can`t remember whether it was here, Miller, or Papazian, oh well)
> where they taped a bunch of coffee cans into a 4-5' column makes me
> wonder about doing somthing of the sort myself. Anyone have any
> insight on the benefits/drawbacks of a tall skinny lautering system?
>
> Carl
>
The problem I can see here is over-lautering of some grain and/or
possible under-lautering of some of the rest. The ideal lautering
system will wash all the grain with equal amounts of water so that
the leaching of sugars is optimal everywhere. It would also have
a filtering system that let all dissolved solids through and left
all undissolved solids behind. Normally we use the grain itself
for this which is why we require a 'sufficient' bed. If you have a
good enough mesh screen to do the filtering then it would be
better to have a short wide lauter tun along with some way to
deliver water evenly distributed over the surface. I'm pretty
unhappy with my current lauter tun (two plastic food buckets)
so I'm thinking about building a new one.
Geoff Reeves
Atomic City Ales
Los Alamos NM
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 10:01:52 -0700
From: 105277@essdp1.lanl.gov (GEOFF REEVES)
Subject: Surface oxygen & fermentation
>
> The reasoning seems sound, and it is true that oxygen-deficient wort
> will cause your yeast to have trouble reproducing, but 2 gallons of
> air sitting on top of your 5 gallons of wort are not going to enter
> the wort unless you shake. I think the rate that the air will dissolve
> into the wort, if it simply sits quietly, is very slow and aeration
> during the filling of the carboy would be several orders of magnitude
> more than aeration from the air sitting quietly. Comments?
> Al.
>
My guess is that the volume of air above the fermenting brew is less
important than the surface area. I would agree that little new oxygen
would enter the wort once it starts to ferment but the much of the
yeast could still have contact with air at the surface (remember the
little snorkelers?). This is especially true as the beer starts to circulate
due to bubbles forming below. Since a CO_2 layer gets built up on
the surface fairly quickly then "head space" as in height of air above
the surface is probably not important. Once again short and fat beats
tall and skinny :-)
Geoff Reeves
Atomic City Ales
Los Alamos NM
------------------------------
Date: 10 Jan 92 12:29:41 EST
From: Charlie Papazian/Boulder <72210.2754@compuserve.com>
Subject: WHAT THE HELLES
With regard to this bit of message that showed up in the Compuserve Forum
> A bit of info for those of you who subscribe to Zymurgy mag. and
> do not also recieve the Beverage People news from GFSR. It seems that the
> special issue on beer styles has some errors(besides Paddy Giffens
> picture). The munich helles article contains some gross mis- information.
> Byron Burch claims to have written and submitted it as a sort of joke,
> after mailing it in he says that he called the AHA editor to inform them
> of the nature of the article in question. But many months later it
> appeared in the '91 special issue, errors and all, and the best part is
> the author credited is CP. So read this article about helles for its
> humorous value and not its brewing advice.
I am the author of that article (that's me, Charlie Papazian). I wrote it and
believe that it is accurate. It is based on information and observations I got
when in Germany. I also consulted with German brewmasters and Weihenstephan
Graduates. The point about Munich having hard water is a superficially correct
observation. But just because a city's water is hard that does not mean
breweries will use it untreated. In fact for light lagers such as Helles and
even Weissbiers (the lighter ones, especially) they DO treat their water in a
way to reduce the hardness. If you were to use very hard water in a light
delicate lager like Munich Helles the hop character would become harsher on the
palate. The same principal applies when brewing Pils. Brewers in Munich brew
Pils, but they don't use the water right "out of the tap." For many reasons.
Brewing Munich Dunkels, dark beers, with hard water is another story and is
more steeped in tradition. The darker malts help acidify the liquor to begin
with, etc. etc.
The claims that "errors" were brought to editors attention and we did not
reply, are baffling to us.
The lesson here, I believe, is that you can't take water data at face value.
You have to research and see how the water is used and treated.
Hope this clarifies this issue. I can be reached on Compuserve mail at
72210,2754 until Monday the 13th of January, when I'll be out of town for a few
weeks. I'm going in search of the oldest brewery in the Americas
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 10:37:40 -0800
From: John Dilley <jad@aspen.iag.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Radioactive isotopes used in breweries
> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 92 09:44:35 EST
> From: Peter Karp <karp@cs.columbia.edu>
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #799 (January 10, 1992)
>
> On the news last night there was a piece about low-level radioactive
> waste disposal. The usual sources of this waste were mentioned;
> medical and nuclear power plants. But also mentioned were breweries
> that apparently used radioactive isotopes for measuring the level of
> beer in bottles. Does anyone know how this method works? Are isotopes
> mixed into the beer and then detected when it reaches a specified
> height in bottle or is beer bombarded and detectors sense some change
> when the bottle is filled?
I've heard of using radioisotopes for detecting levels of
fluids, cracks in bottles, etc. The isotope emits particles that are
picked up by a detector on the other side of the sample. Somehow they
figure out if everything's OK. It's like using an X-ray except that it
can penetrate metal. The isotopes are absolutely not mixed with the
beer. (They'd only do that if they wanted to figure out who was
drinking their beer -- we'd all have to walk by their detectors :-). My
guess is that this technique is used only for statistical sampling; not
every can is tested.
> Is there a different isotope for ale and lager?
Nope. (There might be a different isotope (or isotope density)
for Real Beer (tm) as opposed to American mass-brew, though :-)
Another use of radioactive isotopes is neutron bombardment of a
sample for sterilization purposes. The neutrons kill all life in
whatever it is you bombard, so it'll "live" forever (in its lifeless
form, of course :-).
-- jad --
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 10:25:42 PST
From: rfozard@slipknot.pyramid.com (Bob Fozard)
Subject: glass, crystal, toasted
I planned on making a batch this weekend, but since my Wyeast was
anxious to get at my great tasting beer wort, I decided to go at it
after work last night. There are a couple points of interest I'd
like to share.
Be it the "power of suggestion", or just fate, all the recent sharing
of glass carboy disasters got to me. As I was lifting a carboy full
of sterilant to my deep sink, a thought of the "Oz Incident" came to
me, and I mentally said "I should be very cautious with this". At
that very instant, slip! A mere 2 or 3 inches drop to the edge of
the metal deep sink was followed by an angry crash of glass and splashing
chlorinated water. Man, if you want to empty a carboy quickly, this
works :-) Luckily, I suffered only a very minor cut on my thumb.
I donned a pair of leather gardening gloves to clean up the extremely
sharp shards, and noticed that the gloves, while not only protecting
my hands from cuts, also provide a very "sticky" grip on the wet
glass. I'll definately wear them while handling carboys from now
on. I've been looking at kegging equipment for a while now, and this
incident will speed up my buying decision. I plan to use 5 gallon
soda kegs for fermenting, racking, and serving. This is outlined in
an issue of Zymurgy (not sure which), and seems like a simple, safe,
and efficient method.
A few digests back, someone discussed the damages crystal malts suffer
at mash temperatures. This intrigued me, and I gave it a try in last
night's brew. I rested all but the crystal at 155F, did an iodine test
which showed no remaining starch, and then added the crystal and
began the raise to 170F. An iodine test after the crystal addition
also showed no starch. Could this mean that there is very little/no
convertible starch in crystal malt? I believe Miller recommends
mashing it to extract the remaining starch and the full goodness of
it. What about other specialty malts? For instance, do the sugars
in chocolate malt need only be steeped, as in extract brewing, or
are there benefits of giving them a full mash?
After having the smell of toasted pale malt described to me with
utter excitement, I was encouraged to give this a try also in last
night's brew. I put .5# Klages on a cookie sheet in the oven at 350F
for 15 minutes. I rested this at 155F with the rest of the mash,
but would this possibly be better just steeped like the crystal too?
cheers and thanks,
bob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 12:03:58 MST
From: mlh@cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov (Michael L. Hall)
Subject: Radioactive isotopes and breweries
Peter Karp writes:
>On the news last night there was a piece about low-level radioactive waste
>disposal. The usual sources of this waste were mentioned; medical and
>nuclear power plants. But also mentioned were breweries that apparently
>used radioactive isotopes for measuring the level of beer in bottles.
>Does anyone know how this method works? Are isotopes mixed into the beer
>and then detected when it reaches a specified height in bottle or is
>beer bombarded and detectors sense some change when the bottle is filled?
First of all, to gain a little credence, let me state that I hold a
Ph.D. in Nuclear Engineering. Secondly, let me add the caveat that
radiation gauges were not my specialty, although I do know more about
them than 99% of the people you would meet on the street. I don't know
anything in particular about how breweries use radioisotopes. What
follows is purely an educated guess.
A common way to use radiation to determine the level of something is
called a "transmission gauge". Basically, the idea is to have a source
of radiation (a small amount of a radioisotope) on one side of
something and a detector on the other side. The detector measures the
amount of radiation that gets through the material, which is a function
of how much material is there. If you put a transmission gauge at a
certain desired fill level on a bottle of beer, the difference between
transmitting radiation through a little glass and air (if the fill is
low) and transmitting radiation through a little glass and some beer
(if the fill level is high) could determine whether or not the fill was
above the level of the gauge. Here's a diagram:
/ \ __________
\|/ | | _______ | |
-.- - - - | |- - |_______|---------------| Output |
/|\ |^^^^| |__________|
| | detector
source +----+
bottle
with beer
Another common radiation gauge is called a "backscatter gauge". It uses
a similar principle to the transmission gauge, except the detector is
on the same side of the sample as the source. The detector is shielded
from the source so that no direct radiation is detected. The radiation
that is detected has gone from the source into the sample and
backscattered to the detector. The amount that backscatters (and
sometimes the energy of the radiation) is a function of how much
"stuff" is in the sample, so this method could be used to detect fill
levels also.
I just now looked all this up in a text of mine ("Radioisotope
Measurement Applications in Engineering", Gardner and Ely) and on page
331 there is a diagram similar to the one I've drawn above, except that
there are multiple gauges so that some accuracy in the measurement of
the liquid level is obtained. They generally use gamma rays generated
by a Co-60 source.
Radiation gauges are used in all sorts of places that you might not
expect: measuring paper thickness in a mill, measuring water content
in soil or concrete, oil-well logging, and measuring thicknesses,
liquid heights and densities of anything. An medical X-ray is a type of
radiation gauge (source on one side, transmitted photons detected on
the other side).
But I also wanted to directly answer your questions...
>Does anyone know how this method works?
See above.
>Are isotopes mixed into the beer and then detected when it reaches a specified
>height in bottle?
No, I'm *sure* that no isotopes would be mixed in with the beer. We
have more to worry about with the chemicals they're putting in :)
> or is beer bombarded and detectors sense some change when the bottle is filled?
Yes, this is much closer to the truth. The more I think about it, the
best analog that people would be familiar with is a medical X-ray. Note
that exposing beer to gamma rays does not harm the beer.
>Is there a different isotope for ale and lager?
No. As far as the gauge is concerned, beer is mostly water. There would
be little difference between the transmission of radiation through ale
and lager. Remember, the gauge works on the principle of detecting the
difference in radiation transmission between beer and air (or CO2).
I hope that I have answered all of your questions. There is just so
much bad information being spread by the media on scientific matters
that I felt obliged to respond to your query before it I saw it in the
papers :)
Michael L. Hall
hall@lanl.gov
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 13:26:46 EST
From: mm@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Michael Mahler)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #799 (January 10, 1992)
I also live in a high chlorinated water zone.
I find that my Amtek whole house carbon filter in conjunction
with my Amtek (don't know the model but it's also sold at Sears)
undersink "double barrel" carbon/sediment filter leaves me with pristine water.
You really shouldn't need to boil city/chlorinated water.
I'm a happy Amtek customer, nothing more filter wise.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 14:13 CST
From: korz@ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Weisse vs. Weizen
As I've noted before, I'm studying for the BJCP exam this sunday
and a question like this may cause a core dump of information,
so if I write too much, excuse me. I should be back to normal
on Monday.
Weisse means "white" in German whereas weizen is "wheat." Both
refer to beers are made from a mixture of wheat malt and barley
malt with top-fermenting yeast. There are two distinct styles of
wheat beers in Germany. In the north, a style called "Berliner
Weisse" is made from a lower percentage of wheat malt than the
Bavarian style of wheat beer (I don't remember the exact percentage),
has a low level of alcohol (around 3% v/v) and is characterized
by a lactic sourness. Often the beer is served with essence of
woodruff which turns the beer green or (I believe) raspberry
syrup which turns the beer red. It is a refreshing drink and
thus often associated primarly with summer. The Bavarian (southern)
style is usually called Weizen and is made from at least 50%
wheat, has a level of alcohol just over 5% v/v and is characterized
by a tart (not lactic), fruity palate with clove overtones which
(contrary to Papazian who blames the yeast and the wheat) I believe
come just from the yeast (S. Delbrucki (sp?)). Paulaner, Ayinger,
Spaten and others from Munich call their wheat beers Weisse, though.
In a related note, Hefe means "yeast" and Hefe-Weizen is wheat
beer with yeast in the bottle. Alas, the yeast added to the bottle
is usually a lager yeast due to better flocculation, so culturing
it won't give you a Weizen yeast. There are also Dunkelweizen
(dark) and Weizenbock (a weizen in bock strength sometimes served as
a Christmas beer).
I brewed a Dunkel Weizen using 100% wheat malt (Ireks) and used
Wyeast's Wheat yeast, but did not get a clove character. I know
that Weihenstephan #308 is recommended by Miller for that clove
character (although it's an Alt yeast) and that Munton & Fison
Ale yeast produces a lot (too much for my liking) of 4-vinyl-guaiacol
if fermented at 68F, which gives a clove-like flavor.
To summarize (which is what Danny wanted in the first place):
Weisse and Weizen both mean it's a wheat beer, but if it's name
also includes Berliner, it should have a lactic sourness, whereas
if its, Bavarian, it should have clove overtones and no lactic
sourness.
Sorry,
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 14:51:41 EST
From: Arthur Delano <ajd@itl.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: storytime (fermenter blowups)
dab@pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard) writes about a gift of Irish Stout
kit that blows up his glass fermenter.
Perhaps Oz had jammed the cork on too tightly. Coincidentally, a friend
of mine (hi, Tim) emailed me around the same time as this message was
posted, saying that ihs first batch of homebrew (also a Christmas present)
blew the stopper/blowoff hose and sprayed the ceiling of his bedroom with
hops. Fortunately, the carboy didn't blow up so he cleaned up and
re-attached an airlock; it seems to be doing well now. I would guess that
if the friction of the stopper can keep it in place while the natural
strength of the glass jar cannot keep itself together, the stopper probably
was in too tightly. (IMU(uneducated)O) More coincidentally, I noticed that
one of my current batches of beer was building up a great head in the glass
but not going up the blowoff tube. I took the stopper off and noticed that
its underside was coated with pellet hop goop, so I guessed that the tube
was stopped; a q-tip solved that problem.
A long-range solution to the problem would be to use larger hose; plastic
tubing comes in diameters large enough to fit the mouth of the carboy
alone. I can't see something that large getting stuck unless you're brewing
with grain stalks (:->).
I have a somewhat related question. Has anybody had beer bottles explode?
When I first moved out here, there was considerable protest by a roommie
who was afraid of blow-ups. I was able to mollify him by saying that none
of my batches (all of two) had exploded. Under what sort of conditions
would a bottle explode? Does anybody know what PSI the contents would have
to be at (roughly, I know, because bottles come in all sorts of
configurations) for the bottle to explode?
Thanks, AjD
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1992 14:57 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES@NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Sour Mash Answers
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Following submitted by Micah Millspaw. I'm just the old conduit.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GENERAL ANSWERS TO SOUR MASH QUESTIONS
DAVE- and many others ask :
Yes it is malted wheat . The 20% barley malt is american grown 2-row
klages, it has an ubundance of enzymes for starch conversion (plus
there is a lot of time available). The wheat seems to present a more
interesting flavour profile IMHO. As for the sour mash contaminating
your brewing environment, I've not had a problem with it.
There are a lot of questions coming in so here goes.
I sour 1/2 (one half) of the mash,the high % wheat half the other
is straight infusion.
Aluminum foil has nothing to do with sour mashing technique, CP is
awfully vague about this and most other topics. I do how ever make
a effort to minimize heat loss by using a ice chest and sealing the
lid with duct tape.
If it smells rotten is OK.
The bacteria at work are for the most part aerobic.
If it looks bad its OK.
After 14 hours no matter how bad you think you screwed up, its OK
just see the thing thru, it is worth it. Good Luck. Prost.
SOUR MASH RECIPE ( this one is good )
10gallons
5# 2-row klages mash @ 158F for 14 hours
10# wheat malt
10# 2-row klages infusion mash @ 155F 1.5 hours
2# wheat malt
2oz centennial hops 12 alpha
1/2oz coriander freshly crushed half in each fermenter
OG 15 B FG 2 B
combine mashes for mash out @ 170F 15 min. sparge @ 170F
75 min. boil, after cooled split into two carboys, pitch a Chimay
reculture into one and a chico ale yeast into the other, add 1/4
oz freshly crushed coriander to each. After 7 days fermentation
blend the two batches together in a larger vessel ferment 7 days more
kegged with 1/4 cup corn sugar per 5 gallons. Counter pressure bottled
after 2 weeks.
=======================================================================
As I noted before this mashing technique is not a part of
lambic or sour brown production. Although you could use it. The
lambic's flavour/aroma is a result of a unique fermentation process
involving a host of yeasts and bacteria, I recommend J.X. Guinard's
Lambic book for more info. It is unfortunate that articles in Zymurgy
wriiten by CP lead people to beleive that sour mashing is a part of
lambic, perhaps he could read Guinards book after all isn't he the
publisher!
=========================================================================
THIS IS NOT A SOUR MASH BEER RECIPE. PLEASE DO NOT BE CONFUSED
Dave asked about Flanders or sour brown ales, so here we go.
Making a sour brown type beer is somewhat easier than a
lambic. So here is my recipe for an excellent sour brown kreik beer.
5 gallons
10# 2-row klages
15# wheat malt
2# chocolate malt
1/4oz styrian goldings
2oz cluster hops
OG 1070 FG1020
single temp. infusion mash @165F for 1.5 hours
prise de mousse (S. bayanus) and Pediococus D. in the fermenter
7 day primary/14 day secondary
kegged with 16oz cherry concentrate (68 brix) and Brettenomyces culture.
MICAH MILLSPAW 1/9/92
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 18:29:08 MST
From: kbrunell@NMSU.Edu
Subject: New Brewer
Hi! I'm going to try my first batch hopefully sometime within the
next week. I've been digesting vast amounts of information from HBD
and R.C.B, and have learned a lot so far. Anyway, my question at
present is: Would it be a good idea for me to build a simple
immersion chiller, cool the wort to the 70F range, and then allow the
wort to splash around a bit (pass through the air) on transfer to the
fermenter to be aerated/oxygenated and make the yeast happy, and not
be worried about oxidation?
That's my question for now....
Thanks in advance
-Ken Brunell
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 92 23:53:57 EST
From: Robb Holmes <RHOLMES@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: Historical Homebrew ( no. 2)
This is the second posting containing beer recipes that I received in 1975 or
1976, presumably from the makers of Blue Ribbon malt syrup. The first
installment appeared in Homebrew Digest # 795, and one more remains to be
published afer this. Please note that this recipe is posted here for purposes
of historical interest only. It is not a recommended recipe. The format of
the original has been followed faithfully, except that I have not attempted to
indicate where underlining occurred in the original, and the single quote
character (') stands in for the degree symbol. I am aware of two spelling
errors, which are reproduced from the original. Any others must be mine.
- --------------------
INGREDIENTS FOR A FIVE TO SIX GALLON BATCH
1 can Hop-Flavored Malt Syrup - 6 Gallon Crock or Plastic Container
(Light, Pale Dry, Dark or Extra Pale) Bottle Capper
3 or 4 lbs. Sugar Good Crown Caps
1 Yeast cake or Vierka Lager Yeast Bottles (clean)
Dissolve malt syrup and sugar in 2 quarts of hot water. When dissolved pour
into crock and add about 18 to 20 quarts of cold water. Mix yeast in a cup
of lukewarm water (70'F.) and with a wooden spoon gently stir into the malt
and sugar mixture. Cover with a clean cloth and allow to ferment at room
temperature (about 68' to 70'). Skim off the foam for the first three days.
The fermentation process is completed when no more gas bubbles appear (about
the 4th or 5th day). If tester or hydrometer is used, bottle at the red
line, being certain it is down in the surface. Gelatin may be used to settle
the yeast. Dissolve two small envelopes of Knox Gelatin in hot water. Pour
the gelatin over the top of brew in crock about a day before you plan to
bottle or when tester is around 1/2%.
Bottling: After bottles have been thoroughly washed put a scant 1/2 teaspoon
of sugar in bottle and fill to within an inch and a half from the top. Cap,
then tip upside down once and store upright in a warm place (70-75 degrees).
Storing and Handling: Store bottles in an upright position (not on side) to
allow beer to age. The sediment and yeast will settle to bottom and the beer
will become golden clear. In a couple of weeks the beer should be aged suffi-
cently to drink. To cool beer, place bottles in an upright position in the
refrigerator. When handling the bottled beer it is essential they remain in
an upright position. This will allow the sediment to remain on the bottom
and not be disturbed.
To Serve: Open cold bottle of beer and pour into a pitcher or glass that is
large enough to hold contents of bottle. Pour slowly and avoid sloshing the
beer in the bottle. When the sediment starts to flow to the neck opening
stop pouring.
Things to Watch:
1. If beer is cloudy or tastes gritty you have disturbed the sediment by
shaking it up or pouring too fast.
2. If beer tastes "flat" you either bottled it too late or did not allow
it to "age" long enough.
3. If beer tends to foam up or tastes "airy" you bottled it too soon.
Wash crock in plain water, never use soap, detergents or soap pads. A Chore
Girl pad should be used to remove brown ring. By having a large container -
6, 8, 10 or 12 gallons, you can increase the recipe proportinately and it
will avoid foaming over. Soak bottle caps in warm water to soften cork
lining before bottling for easier and firmer capping.
GOOD LUCK!
------------------------------
Date: 11 Jan 92 08:02:15 EST
From: chip upsal <70731.3556@compuserve.com>
Subject: copper
Dave Coombs writes:
>This is the same sort of copper tubing that's used in plumbing, right?
>And we drink the water that travels through it to the faucet. So what
>is commonly done when installing copper plumbing to ensure clean
>water?
Yes, it is the same copper somtimes used for plumbing -- ridgid tubing is
more common. Clorine is reccomonded -- often required -- for cleaning out
new plumbing -- one of the things this does is clear the pipes of any
residual flux.
Chip
------------------------------
Date: Saturday, 11 January 1992 9:30am ET
From: joshua.grosse@amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Homebrew Malt Qualities
Last night, I took my first Beer Judge Certification Program class,
which is being taught by Fred Scheer of the Frakenmuth Brewery. During
a discussion of ingredients, Fred talked about malts that are available
to him and compared them with malts that are made available to home
brewers. He said that most malters will modify malts for home brewers
way beyond what they would do for commercial brewers. His explanation
is that every home brewer uses a slightly different procedure, rests may
be too long or too short, and that homebrewers are concerned with high
extraction rates. The commercial brewers are able to adjust procedures
to match differences in batches of malt, whereas homebrewers may not be
able to do so. This came up during a discussion of diecytl production
due to the level of the amino acid valine (sp?).
He asked us, "How many of you have called your malt supplier and asked
for an analysis?" He said that this is very difficult for homebrewers
to get, as they don't buy malts in commercial quantities.
I mentioned that I'd just obtained a general analysis of various malt
types (thanks, Russ), and he said, "Your supply will vary, you should
get an analysis with every batch." He suggested that we as homebrewers
demand this information be included with every batch of grain. If we
begin to demand this information, our retailers will ask our
wholesalers, who will ask the malt houses, who will eventually supply it
due to consumer demand. Then, along with our Alpha Acid analysis on
every bag of hops, we'll get a malt analysis on every bag of malt.
Of course, we'll need to build HCU (Homebrew Color Units) and HDU
(Homebrew Diastatic Units) and other HxU numbers into all our recipes.
This is going to be an interesting class!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse jdg00@amail.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp. 313-358-4440
Southfield, Michigan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 92 12:51:48 CST
From: Jacob Galley <gal2@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: How to put caffeine and anise in beer?
I'm sorry if this idea offends anyone too much, but this brew I'm
planning has a special purpose. I am planning to make a Sleepout
Caffeinated Doppelbock. Sleepout is a weekend in the Spring when all
us nutty undergrads here at the University of Chicago "sleep" out on
the quads the night before the first day that we're allowed to make
registration appointments. The earlier you arrive, the earlier you can
register for next year's classes, and the less the chance of the
classes you want/need being filled by the time you get there. So
understand, I need a drink that will intoxicate me and my friends, but
"won't slow us down" as some marketroids might put it.
Does anyone have any ideas about how to add caffeine to beer? I don't
want any coffee flavoring -- not in a doppelbock. Would pills be okay?
Do I have to be careful of heating the caffeine too much?
I'm also toying with the idea af adding a hint of anise or fennel
flavor, but I realize that aniseed is fairly oily, and don't want to
jeopardize the head. Can someone suggest a method of adding flavor
without oils?
I plan on pitching trappist yeast. If this works out, I'll post the
recipe. Thanks in advance!
Reinheitsgebot <-- "Keep your laws off my beer!" <-- gal2@midway.uchicago.edu
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #800, 01/13/92
*************************************
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