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Lambic Digest V1 #099
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Subject: Lambic: The Lambic Digest V1 #99
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Lambic: The Lambic Digest Friday, June 22 2001 Volume 01 : Number 099
Berliner Weisse
Re: Berliner Weisse
Re: measuring sourness
Re: Berliner Weisse
Re: Berliner Weiss
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:05:13 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Berliner Weisse
Howdy,
Mike Sharp says he's not heard about using Brett in a Berliner
Weisse. I've got a couple of M Jackson's books that indicate this. Brian
Nummer published an article "Brewing with Lactic Acid Bacteria" in Brewing
Techniques some years ago that corroborates this, and I believe the article
on Berliner Weisse in the current issue of Zymurgy also confirms
this. Kindl is entirely soured with Lactobacillus but Shultheiss is the
brett fermented one.
I'm in the process of putting together a sour brown ale with
Lactobacillus. So far so good....I'm tempted to pitch some Brett at
bottling, but not sure yet.
Who out there has stories (successes and not-so-successes) in brewing
Berliner Weisse and Sour Brown (or Red) ales? Bring 'em on.
nathan in madison, wi
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:12:31 -0700
From: Mike Sharp <mike_sharp at pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Berliner Weisse
Nathan Kanous wrote:
> Mike Sharp says he's not heard about using Brett in a Berliner
> Weisse. I've got a couple of M Jackson's books that indicate this. Brian
> Nummer published an article "Brewing with Lactic Acid Bacteria" in Brewing
> Techniques some years ago that corroborates this, and I believe the article
> on Berliner Weisse in the current issue of Zymurgy also confirms
> this. Kindl is entirely soured with Lactobacillus but Shultheiss is the
> brett fermented one.
I don't doubt that such things have been published. What I'm curious about
is if any of you would use the words 'horsey/mousey/barnyard' (typical
characteristics resulting from brettanomyces cultures) to describe either
beer. I'm trying to get beyond the vague (and often misunderstood) phrase
'brettanomyces character' and get to a description thats a little better
understood by the populus. Certainly 'brettanomyces character' on the
BJCP style guide says little to inexperienced judges and there is room
for improvement here.
What is it that people perceive as 'brettanomyces character' in a Shultheiss?
Is
this perception the only basis for the statement that they're using such a
culture,
or is their direct evidence (microbiological, brewery's statement, ??) that
such a
culture is being used?
I'm 100% willing to beleive everything about brett. fermentation in
Berliner weisse. Hey, its not a style I know much about and I'll
admit that right now.
I really am just curious, not trying to cause trouble. :)
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:23:53 -0700
From: Mike Sharp <mike_sharp at pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: measuring sourness
Steven Parfitt asks:
> Is there a way to measure sourness, other than subjectively?
Well, I've got this HPLC (read: fancy lab equipment) and a procedure
that will tell you exactly how much lactic, acetic, etc. acid is in a given
sample. Its not really something to carry around to club meetings though.
:)
What I'd suggest is that you find a source for food grade lactic and acetic
acid (maybe others too?) and make known dilutions into an otherwise
uninspiring beer. Essentially this is what does/did(?) happen in the Dr.
Beer seminars. There are three advantages to doing this. The first is
you can learn to distinguish the different acids, the second is it gives you
a basis for comparison, and finally, its a good way to determine your own
threshold levels for these compounds.
...and just to stir the pot a bit, I've always found beers which were doctored
with pure lactic acid to lack complexity. Sure, the acid is there but the flavors
of the beer aren't well blended/integrated. I've always wondered if the addition
of a little acetic would help this.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:03:24 -0700
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Berliner Weisse
Ah, Mike Sharp asks about the proverbial "brett character". He's also
using the "horsey / mousey / barnyard" character (no offense intended by my
reflection).
I believe that SOME brett strains can produce that "horsey / mousey /
barnyard" character but I don't believe it's required / ubiquitous / truly
describable. Some brett strains do, some don't.
Think Orval. Some have described it as having a "lemony" character after
the brett fermenation. My current trial with bottle culturing would agree
with this and is also producing some rather fruity, almost cherry-like esters.
Bottom line? I don't think you can always expect all Brett yeasts to be
"horsey / mousey / barnyard" in nature....some may be different. I would
be more inclined to expect more mixed acids (acetic / lactic / other) from
Brett. I've never been across the big pond to Schultheis so I'm just guessing.
nathan in madison, wi
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:04:10 -0400
From: "Spencer Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Berliner Weiss
Mike Sharp asks:
> Hmmm. We're talking about aromas that could be described as horsey/mousey
> and 'barnyard' here?
>
> It wasn't until last week that I'd heard someone claim that a 'Berliner Weiss'
> could have these characteristics. I was a little surprised since I'd only ever
> had Kindl and I remember that being very clean (biologically :) and quite sour.
Yes, Mike, that's exactly what I mean. It's not as assertively so as (some) Lambics,
but it is there.
=Spencer
------------------------------
End of Lambic: The Lambic Digest V1 #99
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