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Lambic Digest V1 #020
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lambic-digest Monday, 6 October 1997 Volume 01 : Number 020
Mold ?
24 hours of the Belgian Beer
tripel
Re: lambic-digest V1 #18
lambic at GABF?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chuck_R_Hanning at sbphrd.com
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:44:54 -0400
Subject: Mold ?
To: lambic-digest at realbeer.com at INET
cc:
From: Chuck R Hanning at SB_PHARM_RD
Date: 02-Oct-97 01:44:54 PM
Subject: Mold ?
Categories:
Fellow plamicquers,
I just started another batch of lambic this past weekend. Following
Jim Liddl's suggestion for starting your lambic in the Kitchen to get the
necessary enteric bacteria, I allowed it to sit open for two days before
pitching the yeast last night. Some observations and questions:
1. It looks pretty ropey already. I'm surprised that it could be
infected with pedio this early. Comments ?
2. I did observe (and skimmed off) some mold-like fuzz. How does one
avoid mold ? Is it even a problem by the end ?
3. Is mold aerobic or anaerobic ? Perhaps the ensuing anaerobic
atmosphere will prevent further growth ?
I am interested to hear people's comments.
Chuck Hanning
------------------------------
From: Peter <73671.1554 at compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:44:55 -0400
Subject: 24 hours of the Belgian Beer
Hi,
OBP organises for the 10th time the 24 hours of the Belgian Special Beer on
Saturday 16 November and on Sunday 15 November 1997.
More than 80 different beers will be available on tap. More than 40
breweries will present their beers and at least 30 brewers will be present
themselves.
Where is the activity located:
Feestzaal Meir
Meir 78
Antwerpen
Belgium
Europe
This is located in the center of Antwerp in Belgium. Very easy to get there
by train.
Open on Saturday from 2 pm. until 2 am. that night. On Sunday from 10 am.
until 10 pm.
The entrance is free and you pay 30 Belgian francs for each consumption (15
cl.)
For more information contact OBP at tel. nr. +32 (0)3 / 226.85.32
or visit their Website at:
http://www.dma.be/p/obp/
Peter
The geuze pages:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pvosta/pcrbier1.htm
------------------------------
From: <jdcn at acpub.duke.edu> at acpub.duke.edu (James NeSmith)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:08:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: tripel
Hello,
I am thinking of culturing the yeast from a 750 ml bottle of Affligem tripel
that I am assured is fresh. Has anyone had experience with this? Is it
better to use a fresh culture?
Thanks for you consideration,
James
------------------------------
From: user at fenland.source.co.uk (Rob & Liz Thomas)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:56:14 +0100
Subject: Re: lambic-digest V1 #18
Hello all,
First the replies:
Dave Suurballe <suurb at apple.com> said:
>This is the first I've heard of this. Is it also in lambics?
oh, yes.
>What does it taste like?
difficult, but see later
>What does it do?
similar to other bretts (Jim: see below)
>Do Rob and Liz use it?
not yet, but very soon (Jim?)
Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at stanford.edu> said:
>I have one pure culture of B. anomalous and I find that it emits a
>pretty foul aroma, one that my 2.5 year old lambic has too much of.
Well, the review paper I mentioned seems to be the latest, what can I say.
>> Certainly the x (15?) year old cantillon Mike Sharp
>> and I tasted bore evidence to that.
>
>How so?
tight highly lingering head (see below)
Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at qc.bell.ca>said:
>I wouldn't mind getting a bit of lactic "tang" like Guiness, but I'm not
>sure how I would control the Ped.'s growth.
Brett (Jim: see below) will give a lactic acidity
>character. There are so many conflicting opinions, it's hard to say. :-)
hmm?!?
>Yes, this is what I'm planning to do. I'm still not clear about the
>sulphuring procedure though.... Do you light a sulphur stick, suspend it
>inside an empty barrel, seal it up (how long do I wait?), and fill it
>with cold water w/o rinsing?
yes (ok, I've not done it either)
Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU> said:
>You made a reference to this before. So from the brewery did they show you
>laboratory data indicating what does grow in the wood of the "sour beer" vats.
>Or is this all a momily? The Lewis Stout book shows guiness to have quite a
>bit of lactic acid. Please be explicit.
following up on what I said to you directly, they "claim" "no" brett.
>Please do. Brettanomyces is nto even taxonomically correct. It is Dekkera.
>Just becauase there is one strainof Dekkerra anomala that was isoalted from a
>beer barrel does not prove anything. There is also Dekkera Bruxellenis that
>was isoalted from belgian Stout.
OK, here we go. I KNOW Brett is now Dekkera. I just don't agree with it.
In the same way that no one would liken THeakstons yeast with Bass, I think
the original descriptions contain more information (that is potentially
relevant to us) than the new taxonomic (presumably via GC data) ones. For
me it seems relevant to know if the Dekkera I am using is sporulating or
not.
(ok, that's flippant, but the fermentation and assimilation data have been
generalised to reduce the number of types).
>Are you refering to only one paper. I'll have to review ALL the papers and
>disserations to see if this is correct. Sometimes lambic is well
this paper was the most recent review by Verachtert on his own groups work.
Surely he wouldn't lie ;)
>carbonated.But I had a '83 Boon Kriek with no head and I could culture nothing
>but bacteria from the dregs. My point? I still don't think there is an
>absolute right yeast strain/method. I'll read up on it this weekend and follow
yes. But that's my point. The Dekkera Anonmalus (cbs76) is reported in two
separate papers (well before Vreachtert was a twinkle in his parents eyes)
to produce a tight lingering head.
Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU> wrote further:
>I looked some stuff over this weekend. I looked at the Van Oevelen and Kumara
>dissertations. Accordong to their studies no one yeast dominates the whole
>time. Van Oevelen reported that of the total chx-reistant yeast 15.6% were b.
>anomalus, 13.8% b. brux., 28.3% b. custersianus, 15% b. intermediud and 20% b.
>lambicus.
>
>Kumara showed that 12% were b. brux., 20% b. lambicus, 6% custersianus, 8% b.
>claussenii, and 3% b. abstinens.
OK, here it is:
brett months
0-1 1-4 5-8 9-12 13-18 19-24
abstin 0 0 0 0 0 0
anomal 3 6 8 2 2 6
brux 0 0 12 9 3 0
cust'us 1 0 2 1 1 3
cust'ii 0 0 6 15 14 14
interm 0 0 8 11 4 3
lamb 0 0 8 19 3 5
naard 0 0 0 0 0 2]
>From this I would conclude, that anomalus is prevelent throughout,
but that there are significant (population wise) blips of other
types. A Blip in population, however does not imply a greater
importance in the final product. (compare Sacch to Brett concentrations,
and we all know Sacch is irrelevant)
>This brings us to a taxonomy disucssion. Previously there was only
>brettanomyces bruxellensis and lambicus.
Previously in the digest?
>b. anomalus is now called Dekkera
>anomala and is the perfect form of b. lambicus.
uh hu
>whether a yeast is perfect or
>imperfect has to do with whether or not it will sporulate. In discussions with
>a number of mycologists it was tated that the ability to get a yeast to
>sporulate is simple a matter of finding the right media and conditions.
In a similar way that a yeast will produce a good beer if it is in the
approprioate wort (see below)
>It is intersting to note that brettanomyces anomalus (which is now Dekkera
>anomalus) was originally called b. dublinensis.
well, one of the type strains was :)
>All the info I have shows
>these strains were isolated from beer or stout.
yes indead
>WRT the importance of one strain or another I would suggest that identical
>worts need to be fermented under identical conditions before any absolute
>conclusions can be drawn.
almost certainly
Now to my ne input:
N.H.Claussen, J. Inst. Brewers 10:308-331 (1904)
I'm quoting randomly from this seminal paper to support my argument;)
the action of brettanomyces is absoluteley neccesary to bring English stock
beers into proper cask and bottle condition, and to impart to them that
peculier and remarkably fine flavour which in a great measure determines
their value.
... to pasturised beer ...added a slight portion of Brettanomyces, .. store
at 75-85 F for 14 days, a slight deposit will be observable and at the same
time the beer will assume an unmistakable English character, both in regard
to its content of carbonic gas and to its taste and flavour
...when Brett is added to beer femented with a yeast of feable attenuative
power in common use in Danish topfermentation breweries, the beer thus
fremented possesses a peculiar impure and sweet mawkish taste.
There is more, but I'm now worn out, not being a typist, and having
barrelled nearly 600 gallons of beer today!!
Cheers, Rob
------------------------------
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:45:15 -0700 (MST)
Subject: lambic at GABF?
Can anyone comment on the "lambic" beers that won a gold and silver at the GABF
in the Belgian Specialty category. I think calling these beers lambics is
blasphemy but maybe Cleveland and Fremont are now part of the Senne Valley. :-)
Jim
------------------------------
End of lambic-digest V1 #20
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