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Lambic Digest V1 #035
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lambic-digest Thursday, 8 January 1998 Volume 01 : Number 035
Various Lambic Yeast Questions
Fun facts about Celis
Boon ingredients, appellations
Wyeast. mashing, bottling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Wayne_Kozun at otpp.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:03:20 -0500
Subject: Various Lambic Yeast Questions
In digest #34 Dan Fox gave a clarification of what exactly is in Wyeast
3278 (as an aside - we don't they tell us this on their web site).
What is people's opinion here of Wyeast 3278? Have people had good results
with it? Is it better than using the indiviudal pure cultures?
I have a few bottles of Boon Geuze which is bottle-conditioned. Would I be
better off using the Wyeast 3278 to brew a lambic or should I attempt to
culture Frank Boon's yeast? Have people been successful at harvesting
yeast from bottle conditioned lambics?
------------------------------
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at stanford.edu>
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 15:46:44 -0800
Subject: Fun facts about Celis
I wrote to Celis via their web site (http://www.celis.com) a few months
back and received some nice replies from Lenzie Kinyon, the operations
manager there. I asked him for permission to post his comments here,
but he hasn't responded so I have taken the time to summarize the vital
info he wrote me. As most of you know, all comments from Belgian
brewers must be taken with a grain of salt, especially from Celis.
(Who was it who coined the term "Belgian Waffle?")
Celis Grand Cru has an OG of 1.076. It doesn't taste this high to me,
I was surprised. Lenzie stated that originally the recipe called for
1.080 but that fermentation was not always complete, due to what he
called alcohol poisoning of the yeast. (I think this shows the
difficulty of making excellent Belgian-style beers, that such a small
difference can be significant.)
I asked him what this meant since I thought most strains could ferment
to 8% with no trouble and he replied that this was not a single batch
problem, but that yeast asked to ferment to this level over and over as
is required in commercial settings are less consistant and that they
"weaken" over time, with problems including slower and less complete
ferments and high dead cell counts. They expect assimilation of
diacetyl with 24 hours of completion of attenuation. He said that most
yeast have problems with continuous repitching with EtOH levels above
6-8%. The yeast used in the GC is more alcohol tolerant than this.
They use 11% sucrose in the Grand Cru, and he implied that they also use
a low temperature mash to keep fermentability high. (The sucrose seems
to be regular granulated sugar from what I saw when I toured the
brewery.)
I was surprised when I toured the brewery a few years back when I was
told by the tour guide (who didn't seem too up on her brewing knowledge)
that Celis used 3 yeasts. When I asked about bacteria, she said they
don't use bacteria. Lenzie confirmed this and said that they use acetic
acid to achieve the sourness in their beers. He seemed to feel that
using bacterial ferments was difficult to control and pointed to the
need some breweries feel to pasteurize and sweeten their products as an
example. He said that he has never heard Pierre talk about using lactic
or acetic acid-producing bacteria in any of his breweries (i.e. before
Celis).
I posted a little about my tour in Digest 504.
- --
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb
------------------------------
From: isenhour at uiuc.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:08:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Boon ingredients, appellations
Steve's post about Frank Boon using a turbid mash schedule reminded me of
something I intended to post a while ago. My grain supplier was in
Belgium over the summer and hung around with the DWC people extensively
while there. After an evening of drinking they were talking about what
brewers purchase what grains. Turns out that Boon buys a large amount of
malted wheat. Thought that was kind of interesting.
About the cross posting by Hubert= Smith= (brewboy= at cdsnet=.net=;-)
Seems to me that adding the term "style" after the name makes a lot of
sense in terms of consumer awareness. For instance I call my stuff
"lambic style" even though its not made in the traditional place or using
ancient methods - its a flavor descriptor. What else are ya gonna call
it? Well, when the farm boys come rolling in and asked what the hell is
this stuff I told em it was "Belgian Lemonaid" and they loved it (but
people wouldnt drive in from Chicago and St. Louis for Belgian Lemonaid).
For me its a matter of communication, so people know what they are
getting. Now I despize going into a pub where they are selling beers with
names that do not in any way remind one of that style - seen too many
"frambozen" that are just wimpy ale with a shot of rasberry extract. OTOH,
in Belgium, there are "Scotch" (style) ales and you dont see the Scot's
getting all P.O'd.
I do think that terms like "Trappist" should be protected, you can always
call it a "Triple Style Belgian Ale" (IF thats what it tastes like) and
people will know what you are selling.
Just have the toads, er lawyers stop by any old time...
- -john
- --
John Isenhour "unix is not your mother"
Brewmaster/National Judge
Library & Information Science isenhour at uiuc.edu
------------------------------
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:10:44 -0000
Subject: Wyeast. mashing, bottling
> From: Steelbrew <Steelbrew at aol.com>
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:37:16 EST
> Subject: Wyeast Lambic Blend
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> A couple of months ago I asked the collective what cultures
> were present in Wyeast 3278. Well, I just got a definitive
> (hopefully) answer from Wyeast Labs, so I am posting it
> for everyone's information. I welcome any comments.
>
> The 3278 contains S. cerevisiae, S. delbruckii, B. bruxellensis,
> B lambicus, L. delbruckii, P. cerevisiae. It generally requires 6
> months or more for the fermentation profile to be near complete.
> Residual fermentation will continue indefinitely.
Definitive and Wyeast are oxymorons. :-) Nice mix of stuff and remember
boys and girls this blend is being made at the same facility where more
than 30 strains of "normal" yeast are being propagated and sold. I
certainly hope the qc/qa is rigorous. According to their web page: Bacteria
; < 1 cfu / ml. This is not zero.
>
> From: Steve Piatz <piatz at cray.com>
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:18:23 -0600 (CST)
> Subject: Lambic tour trip report
>
>
> Cantillon does have a little bit of stainless steel tankage for use in
> the bottling process. The filtration system is old but still
> functional. The barrel/cask cleaning system is an amazing mechanical
> device. Cantillon does an infusion style mash rather than a turbid
> mash.
>
This is interesting in light of his calling other brewers less traditional
and all the information he gave mike sharp about turbid mashing. I guess I
should check my sources more carefully since this sort of invalidates the
stuff I wrote in BT.
>
> The Boon Kriek is made from 75% young lambic and 25% old lambic while
> the Mariage Parfait is made from 100% old lambic. Young lambic in this
> context is from 6 to 8 months old.
How does he get carbonation in the bottle from 100% old lambic? The
fermentable extract has to be close to zero.
------------------------------
End of lambic-digest V1 #35
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