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Lambic Digest V1 #022
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lambic-digest Tuesday, 7 October 1997 Volume 01 : Number 022
gabf lambics
Re: Tripel, GABF lambics
The Dreaded Wyeast Lambic Blend
Re: tripel
more on brett
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: isenhour at uiuc.edu
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:32:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: gabf lambics
Jim asks:
> Can anyone comment on the "lambic" beers that won
The brewer who won the gold was trained in the lambic style by myself, and I
consulted heavily on brewing that particular batch. IMHO it was way young,
not very complex nor sour, but it has potential. Its in oak barrels
and should only get better, time will tell. (However, I dont tell ALL my
secrets, as is in proper alignment with belgian brewing tradition:)
I have about 5bbl left of my last batch of lambic style and I didnt enter
it because I wanted to wait at least another year even though its getting
pretty nice. I'll probably just drink it.
I would not dare to call any of this lambic but this is due to the name
of the catagory, blame GABF.
good luck,
- -john
- --
John Isenhour "unix is not your mother"
Brewmaster/National Judge
Library & Information Science isenhour at uiuc.edu
------------------------------
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:42:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tripel, GABF lambics
> From: <jdcn at acpub.duke.edu> at acpub.duke.edu (James NeSmith)
>
> I am thinking of culturing the yeast from a 750 ml bottle of Affligem tripel
> that I am assured is fresh. Has anyone had experience with this? Is it
> better to use a fresh culture?
I'm not sure if they use a single strain, but due to the osmotic pressure
from the high alcohol level, there's a good chance the yeast may have
mutated, in which case it may behave differently than you desire.
I recommend getting one of the many Belgian yeasts sold by the
Yeast Culture Kit. Co. Standard disclaimers apply.
- --
> From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: lambic at GABF?
>
> Can anyone comment on the "lambic" beers that won a gold and silver at
> the GABF
> in the Belgian Specialty category. I think calling these beers lambics is
> blasphemy but maybe Cleveland and Fremont are now part of the Senne
> Valley. :-)
I tried the Gold winner and found it rather acetic and a bit phenolic.
No brett. character, and IMO, not very interesting. I think Dave
Sapsis found it a little more palatable, but basically agreed with me.
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham 118 Mesa Verde Street
BJCP Exam Co-Director Santa Fe, NM 87501
bickham at trail.com 505-986-1705
=========================================================================
------------------------------
From: Michael.Nemier at ipaper.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:59:44 -0500
Subject: The Dreaded Wyeast Lambic Blend
Fellow funk-o-philes:
I have just recently subscribed to the 'digest, but have already dug
out several very useful informational nuggets. Most curiously, I have
noted several disparaging comments regarding the Wyeast Lambic Blend
culture. This I find very interesting.
I made an attempt at a pseudo-lambic (recall - if it ain't the Senne
valley, it ain't lambic) about a year ago. I cooked up the requisite
mash with DeWolf-Cosyns Pils malt and raw wheat, followed all of the
other "standard" wort production techniques, and pitched with two
(buffered) cultures that I had prepared. One was 700ml of actively
fermenting Wyeast Lambic Blend, the other was a feeble 700 ml culture
from a 1995 Boon Kriek (dead or nearly so). The thing took off quite
well, I racked it once, bottled half as a pseudo-lambic several months
later, then added a load of fresh raspberries to the other half and
carried on the fermentation for another several months. After another
racking, I bottled a very attractive pseudo-kriek-lambic.
Here comes the goofy part, and I suspect that several of you hard-core
types out there already know what I found. After several more months,
both beers were sparkling clear with a minuscule sediment - clearly
ready for consumption. I was disappointed to find that I had
succeeded in producing two slightly out-of-the-ordinary Bavarian
Weizens - one straight and one with a powerful blast of fresh
raspberries. The characteristic lambic acidity and "horsey-ness" was
not present (obvious lack of acid-producing bacteria and
Brettanomyces), with the flavor profile completely dominated by an
intense clovey-ness with some banana. I feel like I could have spared
myself the trouble (and worry of unleashing these nasties in the
brewhouse) and just pitched a Wyeast Weinhestephan Wheat.
A happy ending - my wife, Marie, is a German wheat beer freak (I
despise it) and loves the stuff. She doesn't really care for the
flavor of authentic lambic anyway. Better yet, we have moved since
this attempt, leaving the place infested with Wyeast Lambic Blend for
the next hapless fool who attempts a Bohemian Pilsner there.
Question - is my experience typical with this culture, and why?
Mike Nemier
------------------------------
From: Marc Hugentobler <MARHUG at mdls.usu.edu>
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:31:02 -0600
Subject: Re: tripel
James:
>I am thinking of culturing the yeast from a 750 ml bottle of Affligem
tripel
>that I am assured is fresh. Has anyone had experience with this?
I cultured the beautiful affligem yeast just by pouring the dregs into
a fresh starter. The results were very "Affligem-ish"-excuse me:->. It
is however a high gravity brew so, ahem, there are no rules. Maybe one
of the veteran yeast ranchers will chime in on that. The same triple
did however win a gold medal for belgians at the march mashfest in ft.
collins. Awarded I might add in part by an affirmed belgian nut brian
walters.
So take that for what it is worth.
Marc
------------------------------
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:26:10 -0700 (MST)
Subject: more on brett
Rob wrote:
> >Do Rob and Liz use it?
> not yet, but very soon (Jim?)
What? :-) I would know a thing about getting this strain.
> Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at qc.bell.ca>said:
>
> >I wouldn't mind getting a bit of lactic "tang" like Guiness, but I'm not
> >sure how I would control the Ped.'s growth.
> Brett (Jim: see below) will give a lactic acidity
I have never read about brettanomyces of any type producing lactic acid. Acetic
yes, lactic no. Baloney is my impolite response.
> yes. But that's my point. The Dekkera Anonmalus (cbs76) is reported in two
> separate papers (well before Vreachtert was a twinkle in his parents eyes)
> to produce a tight lingering head.
>
I'll have to do some bottle conditioning wiht this yeast. But again brett has
the enyzmatic ability to degrade all the dextrins in the beer. And how does
what a yeast does have anything to do with a lingering head. I thought the
beer foam was related to proteins. Historically silliness?
>
> Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU> wrote further:
> >I looked some stuff over this weekend. I looked at the Van Oevelen and Kumara
> >dissertations. Accordong to their studies no one yeast dominates the whole
> >time. Van Oevelen reported that of the total chx-reistant yeast 15.6% were b.
> >anomalus, 13.8% b. brux., 28.3% b. custersianus, 15% b. intermediud and 20% b.
> >lambicus.
> >
> >Kumara showed that 12% were b. brux., 20% b. lambicus, 6% custersianus, 8% b.
> >claussenii, and 3% b. abstinens.
> OK, here it is:
> brett months
> 0-1 1-4 5-8 9-12 13-18 19-24
> abstin 0 0 0 0 0 0
> anomal 3 6 8 2 2 6
> brux 0 0 12 9 3 0
> cust'us 1 0 2 1 1 3
> cust'ii 0 0 6 15 14 14
> interm 0 0 8 11 4 3
> lamb 0 0 8 19 3 5
> naard 0 0 0 0 0 2]
>
> From this I would conclude, that anomalus is prevelent throughout,
> but that there are significant (population wise) blips of other
> types. A Blip in population, however does not imply a greater
> importance in the final product. (compare Sacch to Brett concentrations,
> and we all know Sacch is irrelevant)
>
Again this is from one set of data. If you combine all the Phd.s that have
ever sampled lambic casks it still would not be that many and the sampling
techniques a fraught with all kinds of error. and this data is for anomala
and it may or may not be the same as the strain you are interested in. And the
classification is based on the fermentation and assimlation data you already
poo pooed. :-)
> Now to my ne input:
> N.H.Claussen, J. Inst. Brewers 10:308-331 (1904)
>
> I'm quoting randomly from this seminal paper to support my argument;)
>
> the action of brettanomyces is absoluteley neccesary to bring English stock
> beers into proper cask and bottle condition, and to impart to them that
> peculier and remarkably fine flavour which in a great measure determines
> their value.
>
This sounds like michael jackson waxing poetically. Science? Objective?
> ... to pasturised beer ...added a slight portion of Brettanomyces, .. store
> at 75-85 F for 14 days, a slight deposit will be observable and at the same
> time the beer will assume an unmistakable English character, both in regard
> to its content of carbonic gas and to its taste and flavour
Oh yea that quantitative measure called "Englsih character" ugh. Some people
might call the character "infected".
Much of this is in jest. Rob and I have been discussing this issue offline
also. I deleted a dsicussion of taxonomy until I get some genetic info
together. Real science.
Jim
------------------------------
End of lambic-digest V1 #22
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