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Lambic Digest V1 #018
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lambic-digest Wednesday, 1 October 1997 Volume 01 : Number 018
Re: lambic-digest V1 #17
Re: lambic-digest V1 #17
Oak Barrels / Recreating Old Ales
Ok let's debate the issue
barrels
Beer in Brussels
lambic yeast content
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dave Suurballe <suurb at apple.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:46:12 -0700
Subject: Re: lambic-digest V1 #17
Uh-oh. What is B.anomalus?
This is the first I've heard of this. Is it also in lambics?
What does it taste like?
What does it do?
Do Rob and Liz use it?
Suurballe
------------------------------
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at stanford.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:35:40 -0700
Subject: Re: lambic-digest V1 #17
> From: user at fenland.source.co.uk (Rob & Liz Thomas)
> Thirdly, I think we are all missing the point with B Brux and B. Lam.
> In Verachterts simbiotic paper, he notes the continuous presence of
> b anomalus throughout fermentation. The others are merely blips in the
> readings. I suspect that B anomalus is the most important of that
> species present.
I have one pure culture of B. anomalous and I find that it emits a
pretty foul aroma, one that my 2.5 year old lambic has too much of.
I've never tasted it in a commercial lambic. So, mine may have followed
the trends you describe, but I don't think I want to repeat it.
> Certainly the x (15?) year old cantillon Mike Sharp
> and I tasted bore evidence to that.
How so?
- --
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb
------------------------------
From: Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at qc.bell.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:04:34 -0400
Subject: Oak Barrels / Recreating Old Ales
> From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:01:42 -0700
>
> Where are you getting the barrel(s) and how much are they? I'd like to
> pick up some barrels, either french or american oak but don't want to have
> to spend $100 or more for them.
I'd suggest you stay away from American Oak. The information I've found
indicates that American Oak imparts a harsher/stronger taste than French
Oak. You can also find used wine barrels, but I'd rather not impart wine
tastes to my beer. As for price, my new French Oak Barrel cost me 155$ +
shipping from Demptos Cooperage (707-257-2628).
> From: user at fenland.source.co.uk (Rob & Liz Thomas)
> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:19:28 +0100
> Subject: Re: Recreating Very Old Ales...
>
> Hello all,
> what a coincidence, just as I start talking about
> old ales etc, so does Jean-Sebastien Morisset
Though it looks like you've got a good head start on me... :-)
> >I'm working on a little project to give some of my Old Ales, Stouts,
> >Porters, etc. a bit of a sour/horsey character.
>
> Be afraid, be very afraid. This is a very touchy subject.
> There shouldn't be significant sourness in these ales, however
> "authentic" you would like them. As for horsey, who knows.
> I may know more soon, but the major advantage (if that's the word)
> to using non Sacch bugs in English beers is the secondary fermentation
> and condition which is induced (by B. anomalus). I'm still checking back
> on some obscure literature which may tell me what the overall effect was.
My plan is to completely ferment an Ale in glass carboys, rack to the
oak barrel, and innoculate with a still unknown Brett. yeast. I
wouldn't mind getting a bit of lactic "tang" like Guiness, but I'm not
sure how I would control the Ped.'s growth.
> >My plan is to purchase a
> >new Oak Barrel (French oak, med. toast, 7.5 gals), innoculate it with a
>
> toast is inappropriate
Yes, but to select the toast and forest, I'd have to wait another 3-4
months! I'll just try and leach out as much flavour as I can before
using it. In the long run, I think the toasting will lessen the oak
character. There are so many conflicting opinions, it's hard to say. :-)
> Yes. If you leave the cask with no beer in it, either sulphur it or fill
> with sulphite solution. At the Smiths, Marsdens and Theakston breweries,
> the barrels are cleaned with cold, hot, steam water, and then sulphured.
Yes, this is what I'm planning to do. I'm still not clear about the
sulphuring procedure though.... Do you light a sulphur stick, suspend it
inside an empty barrel, seal it up (how long do I wait?), and fill it
with cold water w/o rinsing?
Thanks,
js.
- --
Jean-Sebastien Morisset <mailto:jsmoriss at qc.bell.ca>
Unix Administrator, Bell Sygma Telecom. Solutions
------------------------------
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 8:08:14 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Ok let's debate the issue
Rob wrote<
> Hello all,
> a few more bits of info. (and a bit of bait)
> firstly, Guiness do not use Brettanomyces in thier brewery.
You made a reference to this before. So from the brewery did they show you
laboratory data indicating what does grow in the wood of the "sour beer" vats.
Or is this all a momily? The Lewis Stout book shows guiness to have quite a
bit of lactic acid. Please be explicit.
> Secondly, B. anomalus is (or was) the single most important factor in producing
> British Stock Ales. (for reasons I'll go into if anyone cares)
Please do. Brettanomyces is nto even taxonomically correct. It is Dekkera.
Just becauase there is one strainof Dekkerra anomala that was isoalted from a
beer barrel does not prove anything. There is also Dekkera Bruxellenis that
was isoalted from belgian Stout.
> Thirdly, I think we are all missing the point with B Brux and B. Lam.
> In Verachterts simbiotic paper, he notes the continuous presence of
> b anomalus throughout fermentation. The others are merely blips in the
> readings. I suspect that B anomalus is the most important of that
> species present. Certainly the x (15?) year old cantillon Mike Sharp
> and I tasted bore evidence to that. B. Anomalus when cultured in sealed vessels
> produces a superb head on beer, without too much acetification (cf BB and BL)
> Cheers,
Are you refering to only one paper. I'll have to review ALL the papers and
disserations to see if this is correct. Sometimes lambic is well
carbonated.But I had a '83 Boon Kriek with no head and I could culture nothing
but bacteria from the dregs. My point? I still don't think there is an
absolute right yeast strain/method. I'll read up on it this weekend and follow
up.
Jim asks,
> question is two-fold: 1) is the Wyeast pLambic blend very useful for pLambic
> brewing?
I'm ahsamed to say it but for the person who simply wants to get their feet wet
it is probably and OK start. But I would not ever use it in amillion years.
:-)
> 2) Considering the fastidious natures of P. Damnosus and
> Brettanomyces should my bottles have cleared so soon?
>
Maybe. The stuff could be all dead.
>
> I'm looking for a Brett. yeast isolated by Brian Nummer, of Head Start
> Brewing Cultures, from an old Oak Barrel. Does anyone have this yeast in
> their ranch, or know how I can contact Brian Nummer? A similar authentic
> Brett. yeast would also be acceptable.
>
> Thank you,
> js.
> - --
This is/was most likely the ATCC strain number 36234. This strain is also
available from other yeast collections if you have the right connections and
are willing to pay the fees depositories charge.
Then Rob writes:
> Hello all,
> what a coincidence, just as I start talking about
> old ales etc, so does Jean-Sebastien Morisset
>
> >I'm working on a little project to give some of my Old Ales, Stouts,
> >Porters, etc. a bit of a sour/horsey character.
> Be afraid, be very afraid. This is a very touchy subject.
> There shouldn't be significant sourness in these ales, however
> "authentic" you would like them. As for horsey, who knows.
> I may know more soon, but the major advantage (if that's the word)
> to using non Sacch bugs in English beers is the secondary fermentation
> and condition which is induced (by B. anomalus). I'm still checking back
> on some obscure literature which may tell me what the overall effect was.
I agree that is is likely that wild bugs played a part in old beer. The
literature on traditional english cider making (wood vats) and the stuff from
the Rodenbach brewery show that all kinds of stuff grow in wood even after
extensive cleaning. And indeed these wild yeast would be able to ferment the
dextrins in these high gravity beers via enzyamtic hydrolysis. But I don't
have 100 year old beer laying around to see what it really tasted like. But I
read a book or two on old englsih country hoouse brewing and would not be at
all surprised to see wild yeast (an not just dekkera anomalus) play a role.
Be afraid? me? Isn't this a Monty Python line. :-) Next you'll be telling us
tales of bunnies that atack people.
Jim
------------------------------
From: user at fenland.source.co.uk (Rob & Liz Thomas)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:36:50 +0100
Subject: barrels
Hello again,
I'll put a mail to John in here for general reference::
>by B. do you mean brett. anomalus? I'd like to hear more about this.
yes. er, um. can you hold for a few weeks? I'm in the process of collecting
enough refences for a review paper. However, I will publish this
in the LD.
>> In Verachterts simbiotic paper
OK, Here's what I've got:
H Verachtert, HMC Shanta Kumara, Ensaf Dawoud
Chapt. 14
pp 429-478
1985 or later. Possibly a Soc. Microbiology publication.
You might try Mike Sharp for a ful reference.
It is well worth chasing up; particularly if you are interested in other
indigenous drinks.
I will update on Brett Anonmalus asap.
Further to that, I got a req from Mark Gryska <mgryska at javanet.com>
about the beer barrels I mentioned from Theakstons.
Details are (only because I can't find time to get into the export market:)
36 UK gallon beer casks. Used. In good condition. Unknown quantity.
Likely to go fast. Price ex. works 45pounds Sterling.
Cheers
Rob
------------------------------
From: Peter <73671.1554 at compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:44:09 -0400
Subject: Beer in Brussels
Hi,
For more information about Geuze in Brussels, have a look at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pvosta/pcrbier1.htm
On 19 October several traditional lambic-breweries around Brussels open
their doors for the TOER DE GEUZE. If you are around on that day, you can
join a visit and try some of the finer Belgian beers.
For more information:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pvosta/toerdg.htm
Enjoy the Belgian beer,
Peter
------------------------------
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 9:55:43 -0700 (MST)
Subject: lambic yeast content
Rob wrote:
> Thirdly, I think we are all missing the point with B Brux and B. Lam.
> In Verachterts simbiotic paper, he notes the continuous presence of
> b anomalus throughout fermentation. The others are merely blips in the
> readings. I suspect that B anomalus is the most important of that
> species present. Certainly the x (15?) year old cantillon Mike Sharp
> and I tasted bore evidence to that. B. Anomalus when cultured in sealed vessels
> produces a superb head on beer, without too much acetification (cf BB and BL)
I looked some stuff over this weekend. I looked at the Van Oevelen and Kumara
dissertations. Accordong to their studies no one yeast dominates the whole
time. Van Oevelen reported that of the total chx-reistant yeast 15.6% were b.
anomalus, 13.8% b. brux., 28.3% b. custersianus, 15% b. intermediud and 20% b.
lambicus.
Kumara showed that 12% were b. brux., 20% b. lambicus, 6% custersianus, 8% b.
claussenii, and 3% b. abstinens.
Also they both show the presence of all of these over time. I saw no data to
support a dominance by b. anomalus.
This brings us to a taxonomy disucssion. Previously there was only
brettanomyces bruxellensis and lambicus. b. anomalus is now called Dekkera
anomala and is the perfect form of b. lambicus. whether a yeast is perfect or
imperfect has to do with whether or not it will sporulate. In discussions with
a number of mycologists it was tated that the ability to get a yeast to
sporulate is simple a matter of finding the right media and conditions.
It is intersting to note that brettanomyces anomalus (which is now Dekkera
anomalus) was originally called b. dublinensis. All the info I have shows
these strains were isolated from beer or stout.
WRT the importance of one strain or another I would suggest that identical
worts need to be fermented under identical conditions before any absolute
conclusions can be drawn.
Jim
------------------------------
End of lambic-digest V1 #18
***************************
