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Lambic Digest #1085
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Subject: Lambic Digest #1085 (June 11, 1997)
Lambic Digest #1085 Wed 11 June 1997
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Timing of Pedio and Brett Additions (korz)
addition times, one guy's opinion (Jeremy Bergsman)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:27:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Timing of Pedio and Brett Additions
John writes:
>1) We brewed this beer in a public park on National Homebrew Day. Though
>the water was filtered, it had a very high sulfate content. We had to
>add mucho phosphoric acid to get the pH down. What effects positive or
>negative could this have on the finished beer?
I suspect you mean it had a lot of carbonate, not sulphate. Maybe it
did have a lot of sulphate too (which means that you will get a lingering,
dry bitterness in the finish unless your hop additions were very small
or the hops very old), but it's carbonate/bicarbonate that causes the
pH to stay high. Don't worry about the phosphoric acid... even if you
misread the pH and overdid the acid, the beer is supposed to be acidic,
right?
>2) We fermented the beer using Wyeast 1007. After two weeks we added our
>pediococcus culture. After 2 additional weeks we were going to add our
>brettanomyces. This was according to Guinard who obviously is dealing
>with accelerated schedules and an incomplete list of bugs (i.e., we had
>no enterics or kloeckera apiculata). We have tasted the beer in its
>current state and do not feel that the pedio has had an opportunity to do
>its job yet. It's souring but not intensely so. Is there a problem in
>adding the brettanomyces before the pediococcus has finished its phase?
>Ignoring Guinard, how do we know when it is time to add the brett? Would
>a pH reading and taste test be a better methodology? If so, what should
>the pH be at the end of the pedio phase?
Pedio takes about 6 months to add significant sourness and I felt that for
my batch it didn't really start to taste properly sour for 8 months. I
added the Saccharomyces, Brettanomyces, and Pediococcus all at the same time
(at the beginning).
>3) We hoped to make 3 different fruit lambics and a gueueze out of the 22
>gallons. The gueueze aside, we would like to use fruit when it is in
>season (i.e. August-September). We brewed the beer on May 3. My
>assumption is we can add the fruit when it is ready with no ill effects.
> Is this a correct assumption? If not when should the fruit be added?
>Should it have been added already?
That should be spelled either Gueuze (French) or Geuze (Flemish), incidentally,
but the fruit is added to casks when it is in season and then Lambic is
siphoned onto the fruit. The Lambic was made earlier in the year, so at
the least, it is 3 months old and more likely, it is 5, 6, or 7 months old.
You wouldn't want to add the fruit at pitching time because fermentation
CO2 scrubs out aromatics and you want to minimize that. There will already
be some scrubbing when the fruit sugars are fermenting (and believe me, it
will be quite violent), but you can at least avoid the scrubbing from the
malt sugar fermentation.
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:05:02 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: addition times, one guy's opinion
John Sullivan <sullvan at anet-stl.com> wrote:
> 1) We brewed this beer in a public park on National Homebrew Day. Though
> the water was filtered, it had a very high sulfate content. We had to
> add mucho phosphoric acid to get the pH down. What effects positive or
> negative could this have on the finished beer?
I wouldn't think high sulfate would cause the high alkalinity you saw,
sulfate is a fairly weak base. The sulfate may affect any hop
bitterness
as I'm sure you know. Hopefully your hops were well aged. I can't
imagine you added much phosphate as phosphoric acid since it is such a
strong acid. In any case it is a pretty neutral (flavor wise) ion.
The only thing I can think of is that possibly it might be limiting
as a nutrient normally and now you will upset some balance of
microorganisms?
I think malt is pretty rich in phosphate so this probably isn't a worry.
> We have tasted the beer in its
> current state and do not feel that the pedio has had an opportunity to do
> its job yet. It's souring but not intensely so.
I don't think you can expect sour beer in 2 weeks, depending in part
on the size of the pedio innoculum. Get back to us in a year :).
> Is there a problem in
> adding the brettanomyces before the pediococcus has finished its phase?
That's how the real thing is made. There is no consensus on how to add
the bugs for pure culture lambic.
> We brewed the beer on May 3. My
> assumption is we can add the fruit when it is ready with no ill effects.
Again, to look at how the real thing is made, fruit isn't added until
the
beer is > 1 year old. I wouldn't add the fruit until you have enough
Brett flavor since the simple sugars in the fruit might favor other
bugs.
************************
Had some Boon Kriek on tap at the Toronado this weekend. Yum! Too bad
they're not bringing in the gueuze. Also all 3 Rodenbachs, Lindemann's
framboise, Blanche de Bruges, Maredsous 8, ... and many more all on tap!
- --
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb
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End of Lambic Digest
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