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Lambic Digest #1033
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:30:07 -0700
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Subject: Lambic Digest #1033 (February 14, 1997)
Lambic Digest #1033 Fri 14 February 1997
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Correction: Ferment Temp (Thomas Wolak)
Re: Stille Nacht and casks (Spencer W Thomas)
De Dolle Brouwer (Evan Kraus)
Re: Bacterial growth in wort (Clostridiu (Lynn Ashley)
Duvel (Conn Copas)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:39:37 -0500
From: Thomas Wolak <tjwo at lubrizol.com>
Subject: Correction: Ferment Temp
The fermentation temp should read 66F not 66C!!
- ---Tom Wolak
Mentor, OH
> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:56:26 -0500
> From: Thomas Wolak <tjwo at lubrizol.com>
> Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #1031 (February 12, 1997)
>
> The primary fermentation was done at 66C and lasted 12 days. We
> fermented an additional 7 days in the secondary. I must say the
> Westmalle yeast is low flocculating. Anyhow, our final gravity was
> 1.022 and while not a duplicate of the Westmalle Tripel, it was very
> clean and definately had the Westmalle flavor profiles. Very
> gratifying.
>
> Happy brewing!
> - ---Tom Wolak
> Mentor, OH
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:25:36 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Stille Nacht and casks
My understanding is that De Dolle Brouwers get their yeast from
Rodenbach.
>From an old posting:
Posting 1: Extracted from file: 277
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 10:14:51 EDT
From: wslack.UUCP!wrs at mv.mv.com.MV.COM (Bill Slack)
Subject: Arabier and Oerbier
... I am told that the Oerbier yeast
is actually the fermenting yeast used by Rodenbach. When [my]
bottles where acquired at the De Dolle brewery in Esen, some
people came by and where given large yeast cultures. The brewer
said they were from Rodenbach and they came in regularly for the
yeast. ...
Bill
__
wrs at gozer.mv.com (Bill Slack)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:00:53 -0500 (EST)
From: ekraus at ain.bls.com (Evan Kraus)
Subject: De Dolle Brouwer
My wife ani visited the brewery a couple of years ago.
I would think that the Bret or whatever comes from the cool ship
that the wart is run into before it goes to the frementer.
The place is quite old and possibly everything in the place could lend
to the infection. All in all the brewers are 3 brothers and the mother
who rools the roost.
The beer atthe brewery was possibly the best of any the beers they
brewed the bottles I have gotten in the US were quite sour almost
undrinkable.
The brother I met is an architcht who not only
brews but also does illustrations ie. the labels and a yearly
callendar.
We were given the tour by the mother which was a real treat.
I have some pictures ofthe brewery on my web page.
- --
Evan Kraus
BellSouth Wireless INC.
Voice - Fax Phone
(404) 713-1111
ekraus at ain.bls.com
http://bwiwww.bls.com/~ekraus/
------------------------------
Date: 13 Feb 97 14:50:26 EST
From: Lynn Ashley <73744.3234 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Bacterial growth in wort (Clostridiu
To: INTERNET:lambic at engr.colostate.edu
On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, George De Piro posted to the Lambic Digest:
> Can Clostridium botulinum grow in wort?
..
> If Clostridium could survive in wort, then why isn't it a concern
> early in lambic fermentation?
The following is not a complete answer. I suspect that multiple
factors contribute to botulinum not being a problem.
________
>From "Disinfection, sterilization, and preservation", edited by
Seymour Block, 4th ed. ISBN 0-8121-1364-0. Chapter titled
"Antimicrobials in Food Sanitation and Preservation", page 807:
"Low pH values prevent or delay spore germination and growth of
spore-forming bacteria. To prevent growth and toxin production of
Clostridium botulinum, a pH value of 4.6 or less is required."
The pH of my own non-plambic worts has been:
original pH (after boil): 4.7 - 5.5
final pH (at conditioning): 4.2 - 5.0
________
>From "Cecil Textbook of Medicine", edited by JC Bennett & F Plum,
20th ed. WB Sanders Co. Section 288 BOTULISM, Page 1636:
"The disease may be prevented by destroying spores in the original
food source, inhibiting germination or destroying pre-formed toxin.
Specific measures are as follows:
1. Destroying spores with heat or irradiation. Spores of types A
and B may survive boiling for several hours, especially at high
altitudes" ... "Spores of type E are most heat-labile and are killed
with heating at 80 degrees C for 30 minutes.
2. Germination may be inhibited by reducing pH, refrigerating,
freezing, drying, or adding salt, sugar or other inhibitory
substances such as sodium nitrite."
Unfortunately the concentration of sugar and the temperature needed
to inhibit germination was not indicated. Interestingly alcohol was
not listed as inhibiting spore germination?
________
The disease botulism is cause by toxins which are formed during
spore germination.
Botulinum is an antiaerobic bacteria. Shortly after yeast pitching
wort becomes antiaerobic. However the combination of the following
may contribute to botulism not being a problem in beer production:
- Wort boil
- Wort acidity
- Wort sweetness
- Wort temperature
- Lack of spores in the wort.
________
Lynn Ashley
arlington va usa
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:16:26 +1030 (CST)
From: Conn Copas <conn.copas at dsto.defence.GOV.AU>
Subject: Duvel
My mention of Duvel prompted a couple of private requests for a recipe. Sorry,
you've picked the wrong person. I'm one of those who never makes the same brew
twice, is bored by ingredient details, and is more interested in process
details. I guess that means I should put my money where my mouth is. Here goes:
First, Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG> posted a pretty good description to uk-homebrew
of all places on Jan 7/8, so he might be persuaded to share that. I presume we
are all aware of some fundamentals: OG around 75, final gravity around 14, 8.5%
alcohol by volume (with maturity), pilsener malt and noble hops are essential,
bitterness is noticeably less than many triples, a pound of wheat will aid
head retention. Don't have any firm views about whether that should be malted
or not. As I intimated yesterday, I use 15-20% glucose, and I add it after the
start of the ferment. If you pour a highly concentrated, hot syrup into the
brew, watch out for rocks forming (ie, go for an intermediate dilution first).
Mashing: don't want to say much about it. Using wheat, a protein rest at
the upper temperature range is a good idea. Decoction is obviously not
warranted. I mash with rainwater and a dash of CaCl2, which I am careful not to
overdo. Sparge water is acidified with HCl. Adjust to your own circumstances.
Although the gravity figures might suggest otherwise, we don't really want a
low-dextrin mash because (a) glucose is being employed, and (b) we are looking
at a prolonged secondary fermentation situation.
At this point, I get slightly obsessive (which I guess you have to be, to make
a credible Duvel). I let the wort settle in an intermediate vessel before
racking it into the boiler, but that practice is partially a function of my
mashing system. I also rack off from the cold break before pitching the yeast.
If I had the gear, I would investigate chilling the wort overnight before
racking from the cold break. Some 1 gall test trials have proved promising, but
I can't say anything more definite than that.
Of course, pitch loads of healthy Duvel yeast, which effectively means using
most of the primary sediment of a previous brew. The downside is that this may
send the temperature up. I habitually ferment all ales on the cool side and,
given the lager-like characteristics of Duvel, that is less than optional.
Theoretically, a closed ferment will reduce by-products, but I don't do it.
Duvel's bottle yeast (multi-cell culture), although clean, doesn't provide the weird edge I want. A current experiment involves adding a comparatively
attenuative yeast I picked up from De Koninck (draught) to the secondary
fermenter. (If I picked up a wild yeast from the bar, then I like what I
picked up!). In this case, I simply added a 1L starter, but future experiments could involve racking onto a more substantial yeast cake.
Note that I'm not in the US and hence don't have the luxury of
multiple yeast suppliers to choose from. The De Vaete brewery in the
Netherlands reputedly sells Duvel yeast to home brewers, but I haven't been
able to ascertain whether that is a single or multi-cell culture.
I am not a great fan of prolonged, bulk, secondary ferments, unless there are
special circumstances (as in the lambic case). A couple of weeks to stabilise is
enough (although this De Koninck yeast could cause me to change my tune). I
think the realisation is slowly dawning that re-yeasting at bottling time is
not just a means of achieving fast conditioning, but can alter the flavour
profile for the better as well. I haven't tried a side-by-side comparison, but
have made some high-gravity brews that were more disappointing than they really
should have been, and I suspect bottling technique is a factor there. Give the
brew a week or two to come into condition at room temperature, then put it in
the fridge for a couple of months.
There it is, warts and all. Apologies for mingling in some speculation but, like
I said, I don't claim to have got 'there' yet.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
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