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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 00:30:08 -0700
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Subject: Lambic Digest #977 (November 08, 1996)
Lambic Digest #977 Fri 08 November 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Lambic Digest #976 (November 07, 1996) (Clay Irving)
Mould in wooden barrels? (Mikael Larsson)
RE: Fresh lambic (George De Piro)
Re: Lambic Digest #976 (November 07, 1996) (Mike Sharp)
Dextrins and lactobacillus (Scott Bickham)
web site (Brian Coble)
Re: Dextrins and lactobacillus (Scott Bickham)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 07:18:30 -0500
From: Clay Irving <clay at panix.com>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #976 (November 07, 1996)
> Mike writes (quoting Matthias Neidhart):
>> The stock out in the trade was imported and sold by World Wide
>> Imports/The Brickskeller Washington DC some years ago. Besides MA you
>> will find this old stock in Illinois, Ohio, and other states. By the
>> way, we advised World Wide Imports to have their very old inventory
>> destroyed as the cork is already floating in the bottle.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Destroy old lambic? What? I'll destroy it for you! I'll pay the
> shipping too! Since when is fresh lambic better than old? I know
> that J-P has told me that the fruit lambics are meant for consumption
> young, but given that all the Cantillon products are unfiltered,
> I'll take old lambic over fresh anyday!!! Do these people really
> know what they are selling?
Yee-uck. Al, the corks are bad -- I imagine the stuff could be pretty
foul...
- --
Clay Irving
clay at nycbeer.org
New York City Beer Guide
http://www.nycbeer.org
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:01:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Mikael Larsson <Mikael.Larsson at idt.ntnu.no>
Subject: Mould in wooden barrels?
Hi folks,
Earlier this year, I started my first attempts with lambic brewing
in wooden barrels (and one of my first attempts with lambic BTW).
Some time ago, I read the "Liddil lambic lesson". The author claims that
wooden barrels could be ruined by mould unless they are kept properly
filled.
Now, I would like to hear YOUR opinions. How bad is the mould problem?
How do I detect a mould infection? Could the mould pose a health hazard
(by mycotoxins and the like)? Is it possible to get rid of the mould or
is the barrel permanently damaged, when it has become infected?
Thanks in advance,
Mikael Larsson
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:02:47 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: RE: Fresh lambic
Al asks if Matthias Neidhart knows what he is selling. I feel I
should respond that, yes, he does.
He is a frequent guest at the Malted Barley Appreciation Society
meetings (one of my clubs). He does occasionally say some stuff about
the beers that makes you scratch your head, but in general he is quite
knowledgeable.
He is very concerned about the quality of the beers he distributes,
and annoys many retailers by shipping small quantities of product,
while keeping his stock in a temperature controlled warehouse. He
doesn't want beer to be improperly stored, lest it deteriorates with
age.
This is probably why he believes that the Cantillon should be taken
off the market. Beer stored improperly, even lambic, will not be in
peak condition. I would bet a lot of $$$ that bottles sitting in a
retail shop for a few years have not been treated very nicely.
In my neck of the woods, most retailers are pretty brutal to the beer.
It is common to see beer displayed in southern and western facing
windows, at temperatures in the 90's (F, of course) all summer long,
and in very dry, warm air in the winter (bad for corks).
Just my .02.
Of course, the bottles could be fine. Perhaps they could send them my
way for inspection...
George De Piro (Nyack, NY)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 96 09:12:28 PST
From: msharp at synopsys.com (Mike Sharp)
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #976 (November 07, 1996)
> Mike writes (quoting Matthias Neidhart):
> > The stock out in the trade was imported and sold by World Wide
> > Imports/The Brickskeller Washington DC some years ago. Besides MA you
> > will find this old stock in Illinois, Ohio, and other states. By the
> > way, we advised World Wide Imports to have their very old inventory
> > destroyed as the cork is already floating in the bottle.
Al writes:
> Destroy old lambic? What? I'll destroy it for you! I'll pay the
> shipping too! Since when is fresh lambic better than old? I know
> that J-P has told me that the fruit lambics are meant for consumption
> young, but given that all the Cantillon products are unfiltered,
> I'll take old lambic over fresh anyday!!! Do these people really
> know what they are selling?
Al does have a valid point that some may have missed in previous posts.
The handling is much more important than the age. I've had excellent
lambics that have been 25+ years old. I've also had lambics of a
few years in age that were flat and just downright undrinkable
because of mishandling. (unfortunately the one time I _really_
remember was when I was giving a tasting for ~30 and almost an entire
case of one of the beers was dead-on-arrival)
Since I'm not in any of the markets where this beer is available
I can't comment on it in specific. I know at least a few folks
on the digest can. So, what do you think???
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:56:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Dextrins and lactobacillus
To my hypothesis that Lactobacilli (specifically L. delbrueckii) drops
the gravity by approximately two points due to its ability to metabolize
trisaccharides, Jim responded with the answer to all questions, namely
that L. brevis is the only lactobacillus that is able to reduce dextrins.
Actually, most brewing scientists classify dextrins as oligosaccharides
formed from four or more monosaccharide groups. So to clarify my original
posting, most ale yeasts are not able to ferment raffinose (a disaccharide)
and can only partially ferment melibiose (a trisaccharide). They do
ferment other di- and trisaccharides, but the reduction in the terminal
gravity when L delbrueckii is added to a witbier is due to the ability
of the bacteria to utilize raffinose and melibiose as carbon sources.
These are NOT dextrins and are generally present in sufficient amounts
to explain the 0.5 Plato reduction. L. brevis should be able to reduce
these sugars, as well as some of the ones classified as dextrins.
Note that adding the lactobacillus early in the fermentation accelarates
the acid production and produces very tart witbiers. These are a pleasure
to drink, but generally do not do well in competitions.
- -- Scott
========================================================================
Naval Research Laboratory, Code 6691 E-mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil
Complex Systems Theory Branch Home or BJCP: 7507 Swan Point Way
Washington, DC 20375 Columbia, MD 21045
(202) 404-8632 FAX: (202) 404-7546 (410) 290-7721
BJCP Web Page: http://www.execpc.com/~ddavison/bjcp.html
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 17:01:20 -0800
From: Brian Coble <azfool at cris.com>
Subject: web site
Forgive the "noise" if this is old news but I've run into a very
interesting web site dealing in Belgian,Netherlands and Luxenburg beer
and brewing. The BeNeLux Beer Page.
http://www.dma.be/p/bier/beer.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 20:45:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Dextrins and lactobacillus
My previous posting was meant for the ATIB forum - sorry for the
non-sequitur.
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Naval Research Laboratory, Code 6691 E-mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil
Complex Systems Theory Branch Home or BJCP: 7507 Swan Point Way
Washington, DC 20375 Columbia, MD 21045
(202) 404-8632 FAX: (202) 404-7546 (410) 290-7721
BJCP Web Page: http://www.execpc.com/~ddavison/bjcp.html
=========================================================================
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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