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Lambic Digest #0899
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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 00:30:05 -0600
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Subject: Lambic Digest #899 (July 19, 1996)
Lambic Digest #899 Fri 19 July 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Cultures/Oak casks (korz)
esterification and such (STROUDS)
wyeast (Brian Bliss)
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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 11:48:06 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com
Subject: Cultures/Oak casks
Francois writes [responding to someone suggesting the use of Wyeast Lambic]:
The third one you *really* need is the Pedioccoccus bacteria to provide
sourness.
Although I have not tried it and would do a few small test batches before
commiting 50 gallons of wort, Wyeast Labs *claims* that their "Lambic Blend"
package contains Saccharomyces, Brettanomyces and Lactic acid bacteria.
What I have done quite successfully is to culture the dregs
from Lambic bottles (gueuze as well as the various fruit versions) and
add that to my secondary fermenter. I only use bottles that are
relatively young and pass the taste test. It seems to add complexity
to the Lambic by, I assume, building a bacteriological population
closer to the real thing.
This worked very well for me. I used four- or five-year-old Cantillon Gueuze
dregs and they soured the beer marvelously.
If you have long term goals for your lambic production, you can
perform a long secondary fermentation in wood and thus offer a surface
for your population to inhabit; subsequent batches of lambic put into
such a barrel (provided the correct population has infected it; it's a
bit of a crapshoot) will then be affected by the entire population. I
do add cultured bottle dregs from time to time to my cask in the event
some organisms die. Expensive oak casks can be replaced by oak chips.
Although it sounds like Francois is implying here that the oak is used
as a place for the microbiota to hide, it may be mininterpreted by some
that the oak is expected to provide some flavour/aroma. I'll get to the
character imparted by the oak soon, but first, I'll like to address the
issue of fermenter permiability. I believe it was Martin that first
indicated that some oxygen permiability may be necessary for the Lambic
microbiota to work at their best. This is the reason that I chose to use
HDPE for my primary and then glass for my secondaries (yes Jim, making
sure to pick up much of the dregs during transfer).
Secondly, I'm quite confident that the oakiness that many Lambieks have
is probably NOT due to oak itself. Here's why:
1. Jim Liddil's Best of Show pGueuze had an oaky character and was made
in plastic with NO oak chips.
2. Oud Beersel is made in all chestnut casks.
3. European oak (the type that oak Lambic casks are made of) is far less
oaky than US oak.
4. Most of the casks used in Lambic production are old and certainly after
two or three uses most of the oaky flavour will be gone. Some casks at
Cantillon are over 100 years old!
It is for these reasons that I believe that the oaky character we get in
Lambieks is probably made by the microbiota.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 13:16:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: STROUDS at cliffy.polaroid.com
Subject: esterification and such
> > I don't know whether or not the above scenario plays any part in the
> > reduction of acidity of lambics over time but it does seem plausible.
> > How likely is it that the brewing yeasts are still viable and active
> > enough after three years that their enzymes could catalyze the
> > esterification?
>
> You would be surprised.
I'm convinced :-). Robert Putnum of Eylenbosch gave a talk at the craft
brewers' conference here in Boston in April. I remember that he put up a slide
which showed acetic and lactic acid levels in lambic peaking, then dropping
with time (on the order of years). I don't recall that he said anything about
where the acid went, but I may have missed it. Does anyone know if the AOB has
or is going to publish the talks from that conference?
> > It is also possible that the lambic acidity is reduced due to chemical
> > reactions other than esterification. Surely this has been studied and
> > published somewhere?
>
> It has. The research shows that little esterification occurs when one simple
> mixes acid (acetic, lactic) with ethanol. The reaction does indeed seem tobe
> catalyzed by enzymes in the brettanomyces and lactobaccilus.
Yes, simply mixing a carboxylic acid and an alcohol will not yield any
appreciable amount of ester. In the lab, tricks to drive the equilibrium to
the ester side are performed. However, lambics are acidic enough (pH of the
harder lambics is what? low 3's?) that I do wonder about some conversion to
esters.
As for other reactions to reduce acidity, I was suggesting decarboxylation,
reduction, etc. I wonder if any of the more scientific-oriented lambic brewers
and Belgian universities have done any sort of isotopic experiments to
determine the fate of the acids in lambic beers?
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 12:27:52 CDT
From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com>
Subject: wyeast
>If I use purchased cultured yeast (ie Wyeast) what particular strains
>do I need? I'm currently using liquid belgian ale and brettanomyces
>bruxellensis. I know I need more buy more but how many more?
>>The third one you *really* need is the Pedioccoccus bacteria to provide
>>sourness. What I have done quite successfully is to culture the dregs
>>from Lambic bottles (gueuze as well as the various fruit versions) and
The latest wyeast 3278 packages (correct #?), which used to be labelled
"brettanomyces bruxellensis" are now labelled "lambic blend*", where
there is a *subnote "includes lactic culture". any pediococcus in these?
bb
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End of Lambic Digest
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