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Lambic Digest #0943
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:30:13 -0600
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From: lambic-request at engr.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at engr.colostate.edu
Reply-to: lambic at engr.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription requests here)
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Subject: Lambic Digest #943 (September 19, 1996)
Lambic Digest #943 Thu 19 September 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
proposal for unwanted mail (Rick Kessler)
Re: Lambic Digest #942 (September 18, 1996) (Todd Gierman)
Yeast propogation (George De Piro)
Acid of the non-mind altering type (Jim Liddil)
Rose de Gambrinus and related topics (Espourteille, Francois)
Proposals (Brian Coble)
Re: Lambic Digest #942 (September 18, 1996) ("Nancy R. Mollette")
Etiquite and Mail crashing (wyatt)
Send article submissions only to: lambic at engr.colostate.edu
Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
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Note that the request address is not an automated server. It forwards
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Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to:
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Start with the help message above then request the index.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed Sep 18 08:46:22 1996
From: <rick at NJ06mon.house.gov> (Rick Kessler)
Subject: proposal for unwanted mail
For what it's worth, I'm opposed to restricting access to the forum (that
includes disbanding it, which is the ultimate in restricting access).
This idea runs counter to the whole idea of the internet and the Lambic
Forum: the free exchange of ideas and information (yes, I'm feeling
rather academic today). And while I'm emotionally into the Tolstoy idea,
my recollection is that even he would agree that revenge has its costs as
well as its benefits.
Let me propose something a bit more moderate:
I would be willing to type up and keep on file a very diplomatic, if
somewhat pointed and direct message to send to those who don't read the
unsubscribe message. The message would be posted on the forum in advance
for all to see and comment on. I would then volunteer to be responsible
for sending that message to each person who improperly addresses an
unsubscribe request.
Does this, or some variation of it, sound reasonable? If not, I would
support option #1, although it sounds like even more work for Mike.
Rick
(rkessle1 at hr.house.gov)
Ps. Doesn't anyone have any further thoughts on how best to age bottled
lambic and other belgian beers?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:54:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #942 (September 18, 1996)
On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, subscription requests only - do not post here wrote:
> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:30:16 -0600
> From: subscription requests only - do not post here <lambic-request at engr.colostate.edu>
> To: lambic at engr.colostate.edu
> Subject: Lambic Digest #942 (September 18, 1996)
>
>
>
> Lambic Digest #942 Wed 18 September 1996
>
>
> Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
> Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
>
>
> Contents:
> Re:subscription proposals (christopher tweedy)
> Syracuse, NY Competition, Nov 23 (fwd) (Scott Bickham)
> Rose de Gambrinus/opinions (korz)
> Re: a call for proposals (Norman Dickenson)
> Re: a call for proposals (to reduce improper reply postings) (Steve Dempsey)
> Proposals, My Funny Lambic (Russell Mast)
> Etiquette (Richard Ransom)
>
This not an unsubscribe request - just fanning flames and tempting fate
(if anyone has the time to transcribe the works of Tolstoy, then go ahead
and send them). Having subscribed to the LD for several years now, I
have noticed that the frequency of these "unsubscribe" versions of the LD
sort of ebbs and flows inversely with the frequency of legitimate
digests. That is to say, they seem to appear most frequently during long
stretches of time in which legitimate digests are absent or content is
exceptionally low. So, it may be that unsubscribers just don't have the
staying power to get them through the dry periods. It also may be divine
retribution from the lambic gods (see Jim Liddil's Lambic Page) being
delivered upon us for a lack of contribution. Alternatively, it may be
that the frequency of unsubscribes is fairly uniform, but that they only
seem more noticeable during low traffic periods, in which case we would
have to consider that there are no true lambic gods. Consider also that
were it not for the unsubscribe versions of the digest we might even forget
occasionally that we are still subscribed. It could even be argued that
the unsubscribes stimulate discussion (case in point, and see Jim
Liddil's recent response to unsubscribe reposts of July issues).
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 10:02:01 CDT
> From: korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com
> Subject: Rose de Gambrinus/opinions
>
> Last night, my wife and I shared a 75cl bottle of Cantillon's
> Rose De Gambrinus (1995 bottling). It had virtually no raspberry
> aroma or flavour. Hmmm... I recall this nectar having a faint
> raspberry aroma, but none? It basically smelled and tasted like
> Gueuze. I loved it, but was expecting at least a little raspberry.
> Note that this beer is mostly raspberries with some cherries. J-P
> told me that one year the raspberry crop was so bad that he had to
> add blackberries to get a little rosy colour in the beer. Comments?
>
I recall that the best Cantillon RGD that I have tasted was very similar
to this: virtually no color or fruit flavor, but exceptional lambic
qualities. I don't think that this was 1995 bottling as I think that I
sampled this in Feb. 1995.
>
Russell writes:
>
> Oh, another thing, as far as damaging the pellicle. I mentioned that this thing
> had a scary pellicle that I was considering making a lampshade with? Well, it
> got totally wrecked when I brought it upstairs 2 or 3 weeks ago. It's back, and
> it's mad as hell. Little balls of powedery looking stuff on there, too.
For Godssakes, Man, don't antagonize it! I've never seen one angry and I
am sure that I don't want to. When you notice it growing on the dog,
that's when you know that you are in trouble (you'll never brew a
non-plambic beer in your house again).
>
> My main worry now is that I'm basically just making fancy malt vinegar. Maybe
Well, this is a real possibility. But consider what a hit your "lambic
vinagrette" could be at dinner parties. I have a two-year old p-kriek that
has from the beginnig been exceptionally hard with strong acetic
overtones. It had a very "rough" character, very much like some bottles
of Cantillon Kriek or RDG. For a long time I wondered what I could do
with it. Adding sugar before drinking helped. I considered putting some
in a pot, reducing it and adding it to a homemade ice cream (black
cherry?)- sort of a p-Kriek-swirl. Basically, I haven't done anything
with it except to let it sit and sample it from time to time. I've
noticed that it is mellowing, as it no longer requires a Tums chaser. I
also detect an improvement in the flavor: a far more delicate and true
lambic-like flavor. I am certainly pleased to have a couple of
gallons of this beer left. Lambic brewing is one example where time is on
your side.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:26:08 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Yeast propogation
Hi all!
This isn't really a lambic question, but I figured this was the best
forum for a microbiology question.
When culturing yeast from a bottle I have had little (no) success by
just pouring out the beer and pouring in sterile wort (SG ~1.050),
shaking, and waiting.
After a few weeks, something will finally start to ferment in there,
but it isn't sacchromyces!
I have had success by smearing the dregs of bottles onto agar plates,
though.
What's the deal? Should I be using a lower gravity starter? Is the
yeast just too tired after a long and uncertain life in the bottle to
just pop back into a wort? Why should a plate work any better?
It would be nice if I could get going from bottle dregs, rather than a
plate. Any help is appreciated.
Have fun!
George
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 8:04:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Acid of the non-mind altering type
Russell wrote, in repsonse to me:
> Haven't gotten around to trying this yet. What is the difference? I've been
> told there's none, except for the smell. The odd thing is, also, I don't smell
> any acetic smells, and I know the scent of acetic acid. (I've worked with
> vinegar, of course, but also 90% pure glacial stuff. Yowza.) A couple other
> people I've had smell it also smell no acetic, but one guy said it smelled like
> silicone caulk, which I guess uses acetic acid. (He's in construction, so he's
> more likely to say "caulk" than "vinegar".) Well, I still don't smell it.
Lactic and acetic acid do have different flavor (NOT TASTE) qualties. Do the
experiment. All the silicone and silicone based caulks have acetic acid in
them these days. I work in a lab and routinely use all the various acids
(except benders)
I say go elitist. There is already one elitist beer forum digest why not
another. So what if I don't make the cut. Then it would be a kinder gentler
forum.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 11:50:49 EST
From: fespourteille at mmt.com (Espourteille, Francois)
Subject: Rose de Gambrinus and related topics
Al Korz wrote:
Last night, my wife and I shared a 75cl bottle of Cantillon's
Rose De Gambrinus (1995 bottling). It had virtually no raspberry
aroma or flavour. Hmmm... I recall this nectar having a faint
raspberry aroma, but none? It basically smelled and tasted like
Gueuze. I loved it, but was expecting at least a little raspberry.
Note that this beer is mostly raspberries with some cherries. J-P
told me that one year the raspberry crop was so bad that he had to
add blackberries to get a little rosy colour in the beer. Comments?
I had a couple bottles of the Rose last spring (purchased in the
Boston area). It did have a light raspberry aroma and faint flavor.
I found it to have an excellent ballance of lambic character and
fruitiness. An I was so glad to have been protected from an indecent
label by the BATF or whatever paranoid agency was involved. A couple
of weekends ago I tried a kriek from Oud Beersel. The bottle was very
young and had surprizingly little fruit flavor or aroma. It did have
lots of lambic character, was quite sour, and I should have brought
more back. The lambic character was somewhat reminicent of that found
in the Boon Mariage Parfait kriek (1989). All in all a superb kriek.
- ------------------------------
On a different topic, from: Norman Dickenson:
Dave Sapsis, while singing his "gimmie sour" song laments the
fact that his 9 month old plambic isn't sour. I experienced
the same situation in a 60 gal. oak barrel a group of us did in
July 1995. Up until June of 1996 this
beer was only vaguely and mildly sour and I was very disappointed.
Being more artistic than scientific, I thought, "what the hell"
and re-pitched it with Pediococcus. Now it has turned a very
pleasing moderately aggressive sour. Was it just the additional
time, or was it repitching the Pediococcus?
It has been my experience that Pediococcus is very temperature sensitive
and the bulk of the souring occurs in the summer. As basement
temperature climbs, so does the acid level in the brew. Typically,
after a full summer of warm storage the lambic has acquired enought sour
character for my taste. The subsequent storage occurs in a 55-60 F
temperature control room. A couple of batches left out for two summers
have become painfully sour.
Cheers,
Francois.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:57:48 -0700
From: Brian Coble <azfool at cris.com>
Subject: Proposals
I hope proposal #5 wasn't really a consideration.
Individual message screening is probabley the prefered solution over
"auditioning" to get on the membership list.
Folks that don't read the instructions at the beginning are probabley
looking for hot links that will automatically take them to the proper
place aka the internet. I know I was amused by a recent nasty-gram
concerning one persons inability to comprehend simple instructions.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 13:15:07 EDT
From: "Nancy R. Mollette" <NRMOLL00 at UKCC.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #942 (September 18, 1996)
Good Afternoon!
Mailbombing is all well and good, so far as it goes; but
pray consider what our little forum and indeed our own mailboxes would look
like should these people learn to use their machines and happen to save our
addresses.
We are also an Elite group...not insomuch that we are better, but in that
we are specialized in our particular views and goals in brewing. We would be
of little interest to the members of alt.Glug.Bud, but I think that there is
room in the wire for people from other brewing forums who have an interest in
" our " type of beer, or even those who wish only to be exposed to different
brewing styles.
The idea of a moderator is fine, as are all similar "bell-the-cat" ideas.
Simply judging from peoples' Sigs, I would be hard pressed to imagine someone
who would have the time.
MY PERSONAL OPINION is that some form of manual response will end up
replacing the auto-reply, and that auto-reply will go straight to the
cancelation address. It will not be the best solution, but may well be the
most practical.
Michael Wilcox
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 11:35:26 pst
From: wyatt at ccmail.Latitude.COM
Subject: Etiquite and Mail crashing
Hello all,
I have been following the recent "etiquite" thread and I have another
question that affects me to a much larger degree.
It seems that the lambic digest almost always crashes my mail program
(about 96 percent of the time). I have a work around that kind of
works so that I can usually at least read it , but it corrupts the
mail program such that I have to restart the mail program before I can
read anything else. Can you imagine getting on of these junk digests
that only repeats the previous posts, going through all that trouble
to open it only to realize that it was all just to crash your program?
Does anybody else have this problem? The Lambic digest is the only
thing that does this and I get several other newsletters. I haven't
unsubscribed because I am still very interested in the digest but it
is rather frustrating. I would be happy to just be able to delete the
bogus ones without creating havoc for myself. Anyone have a clue
what's going on?
On a more mainstream issue, does anyone know where to get large
quantities of aged hops? I have about 50 lbs that are in the process
but they sure take a long time. I tried all the quick aging
techniques but I'm just not satisfied with the results. I have been
told many times that I'm "picky" so I guess I already know that but I
also know that you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear (in case
you didn't figure it out I consider the lambic the silk purse although
I have friends who would claim that it's the other way around).
Thanks.
Wyatt Jones
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
-------
