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Lambic Digest #0898
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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:30:08 -0600
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Subject: Lambic Digest #898 (July 18, 1996)
Lambic Digest #898 Thu 18 July 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Traditional De Troch (Pencil bytes)
Re: Lambic Digest #897 (July 17, 1996) (Espourteille, Francois)
esterification (korz)
Various (Jim Liddil)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 17 Jul 96 07:15:36 EDT
From: Pencil bytes <102373.2076 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Traditional De Troch
John Carlson writes:
jc>>Several folks have mentioned tasting the Traditional De Troch recently.
Where were you able to find this product? I understand only a limited
amount was imported to the states. Was it packaged in a 750 ml bottle?
Contact Lanny Hoff of All Saints Brands Importers to find the retail chain in
your area that stocks it.
SaintAle at aol.com
The bottles I had came in a 750ml bottle, but the only ones available for public
sale come in 375ml bottles. Prices are similiar to the sweetened versions of De
Troch.
Cheers,
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 08:21:26 EST
From: fespourteille at mmt.com (Espourteille, Francois)
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #897 (July 17, 1996)
On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:40:11 +1000 "Craig Jones." wrote<
4) If I use purchased cultured yeast (ie Wyeast) what particular strains
do I need? I'm currently using liquid belgian ale and brettanomyces
bruxellensis. I know I need more buy more but how many more?
The third one you *really* need is the Pedioccoccus bacteria to provide
sourness. What I have done quite successfully is to culture the dregs
from Lambic bottles (gueuze as well as the various fruit versions) and
add that to my secondary fermenter. I only use bottles that are
relatively young and pass the taste test. It seems to add complexity
to the Lambic by, I assume, building a bacteriological population
closer to the real thing. Especially when finding bugs other than the
three basic ones (Saccharomyces, Brettanomyces and Pedioccoccus) is
difficult, this seems to be a good way to build your culture. These
boosters are only to be added in the secondary fermenter after the
primary fermentation with Saccharomyces is completed. If you can't
find Pedioccoccus you can still introduce it in that fashion, but it
might a while to sour your beer; possibly a year.
If you have long term goals for your lambic production, you can
perform a long secondary fermentation in wood and thus offer a surface
for your population to inhabit; subsequent batches of lambic put into
such a barrel (provided the correct population has infected it; it's a
bit of a crapshoot) will then be affected by the entire population. I
do add cultured bottle dregs from time to time to my cask in the event
some organisms die. Expensive oak casks can be replaced by oak chips.
Hope this helps; good luck.
Francois Espourteille
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 09:36:46 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com
Subject: esterification
Steve writes:
>AlK> My experience has shown that the acidity increases for a
>AlK> year or three and then decreases. I believe the process
>AlK> by which this occurs is esterification where acids and
>AlK> alcohols join to form esters. I believe that yeast is
>AlK> necessary for this to occur (can anyone confirm/deny?).
>
>An organic chemist would tell you that all is needed for
>esterification to occur is a carboxylic acid, an alcohol, and an acid
>catalyst, not yeast. The components would be in equilibrium:
>
> H+
>ROH + R'COOH <---------> R'COOR + H2O
>
>Exactly where the equilibrium lies depends on several factors,
>including the concentrations of the various components.
Thanks. The part of the puzzle still missing for me then is the
acid catalyst. What might this be? There have been some very
detailed analyses of the chemical composition of Lambics/Lambieks
so we could look for these types of compounds.
My suspicion that yeast is involved is primarily because I have
noticed very little change (other than perhaps oxidation) in filtered
beers. Then again, if these catalysts are proteins (as I would expect
them to be), the pasteurization that many filtered beers go through
would probably denature them right? (just speculating)
>How likely is it that the brewing yeasts are still viable and active
>enough after three years that their enzymes could catalyze the
>esterification?
I have revived yeast from 5-year-old Lambic and 3.5-year-old Orval.
In my experience, Brettanomyces are powerful ester producers... any
chance that this could be a measure of their esterification enzymatic
power?
>It is also possible that the lambic acidity is reduced due to chemical
>reactions other than esterification. Surely this has been studied and
>published somewhere?
I certainly would be interested. I've got to shell out some cash and
get copies of many the papers in this field that I still don't have (which
is virtually all of them).
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 7:40:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Various
Steve Stroud said:
> An organic chemist would tell you that all is needed for
> esterification to occur is a carboxylic acid, an alcohol, and an acid
> catalyst, not yeast. The components would be in equilibrium:
>
> H+
> ROH + R'COOH <---------> R'COOR + H2O
>
> Exactly where the equilibrium lies depends on several factors,
> including the concentrations of the various components.
>
> I don't know whether or not the above scenario plays any part in the
> reduction of acidity of lambics over time but it does seem plausible.
> How likely is it that the brewing yeasts are still viable and active
> enough after three years that their enzymes could catalyze the
> esterification?
You would be surprised.
>
> It is also possible that the lambic acidity is reduced due to chemical
> reactions other than esterification. Surely this has been studied and
> published somewhere?
It has. The research shows that little esterification occurs when one simple
mixes acid (acetic, lactic) with ethanol. The reaction does indeed seem to be
catalyzed by enzymes in the brettanomyces and lactobaccilus.
If we accept definitions then gueuze is mixture of old and young lambic that
has been refermented in the bottle. And again if we accept definitions then
once it becomes gueuze then it can not become something else even if it is old
etc.
The bacteria such as pediococcus require various b vitamins and favor growth
under conditions of yeast autolysis. This is a reason why one should not rack
their plambic during the whole period. But at the same time as a brewer one
should do what one feels comfortable with.
Rodenbach and the process of it's production is very interesting. The research
into it's production has provided me a new view on how to make such a beer as
well as how to make other sour beers including plambics. When I further digest
this material I'll post some of the findings.
Jim
Just say no to Wyeast.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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