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Lambic Digest #0832
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Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:30:06 -0600
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Subject: Lambic Digest #832 (April 21, 1996)
Lambic Digest #832 Sun 21 April 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
mystery of Orval (Todd Gierman)
Brett in Orval (Kurt Schilling)
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Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 10:14:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: mystery of Orval
Steve Stroud wrote:
> 1) At the SOB conference in 1994, Phillippe Perpete, in his presentation,
> explicitly said that Brett went into Orval at bottling, along with a S.c. This
> is according to both Spencer Thomas and Tim Dalton.
>
I've always found this assertion very contradictory. I mean I don't
understand the logic of just adding it at bottling. I've always (well,
ever since I unexpectedly cultured Brett from a bottle) believed that it
is added at the secondary.
Evidence/reasoning:
1) Paul Edwards' official information
2) Michael Jacksons' less than complete, and in some ways erroneous,
description of the process.
3) Rajotte - yes, the much maligned Rajotte. He was way ahead of
everybody on this one and gave clues about it without giving the whole
thing away - some people are more respectful of trade secrets than others
are.
All three make the case for an extensive secondary "lagering" that
probably uses Brett.
What is the final gravity of the Orval primary? Anybody? I would guess
1010-1012. Maybe higher, but I can't remember how much sugar they use
(do they add sugar?). Anyway 1010-1012 is a fairly conservative guess. Add
priming sugar and a yeast mix. What happens when the Brett drops
the gravity to say 1004-06? Realistically the Brett could drop it down
to 1000-02 - I am certain. Now, the Orval bottle is very heavy. Anybody
ever witnessed an exploding bottle of Orval or a gusher for that matter?
Neither is associated with Orval. They seem to have it under control. I
think that a good Brett secondary attenuates the beer to the point that
it can be safely bottled and still allow continued fermentation.
If you are planning an Orval clone, I would advise against going from
primary to bottle with a Brett mix. Your 1015-1018 primary will last
about 1 month in the bottle. After that you'll need a mop to retrieve
the remnants of your homebrew.
Regarding the aging and its effect on character: true young Orval is not
overly phenolic, but it does have some detectable winey sharpness that is
very likely due to the Brett. OTOH, bandaid-like phenolics are commonly
associated with the Orval that we get here. Temperature was particularly
emphasized in Paul's post. High temperatures encountered during handling
may account for the increase in phenolics.
So, I vote for secondary. Maybe, the primary yeast and Brett are all
added at bottling, as well. Hmmm... that would make it more of a Belgian
half-truth than a true waffle.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 96 10:59 EST
From: kurt at iquest.net (Kurt Schilling)
Subject: Brett in Orval
Howdy folks :
Steve Stroud asked for comments regarding when Bret was added to Orval in
digest 831. I suspect that it is added at bottling rather than the primary
or secondary fermemtation processes.
About 4 years ago, I obtained some relatively fresh bottles of Orval (dated
Feb 1992) with the idea of culturing the yeast for making some Belgain style
ales. I was fortunate in that I did get a viable culture started from the
dregs of the first two bottles that I opened. At that time I had no idea
that there was any Brett present in the beer. To make a long story shorter,
I used my "Orval yeast" to brew an abbey style beer. After bottling and
aging for a month or so, the beer was sampled. It had a bit of sourness that
I had not expected, but had no sign of infecton (no ring around the neck),
great carbonation with tiny,tiny bubbes, and a lacy head that out lasted the
beer in the glass. I stored the beer away thinking that I'd get back to it
after a few months. Ha! Three years later, whilst browsing thru the cellar,
I decided to try one again. Well, it still had a great deal of carbonation,
but it tasted "odd". I chocked up the off taste to oxidation.
Put the beer back in the cellar until Feb of this year. Tried one again.
Yuck! the taste was now reminescent of one of George Patton's old polo
ponies. Hum? Self, sez I, what have we here? Then it came to me, horsey,
sour, odd flavors, well, I'll be darned, I think that there must have been
some Brett in the Orval bottles. Couldn't have been anything else.
In retrospect, the development of the "off flavors" in my abbey beer does
suggest that the slow, fastidious growth habits of Brett took a while to be
expressed. Has anyone encountered this before, or was I simply the victim
of foolish ignorance and blind luck? BTW. I' still have about 10 bottles of
this stuff. Is there any hope of getting anything viable out of it after 4
years or should I hold my nose and just swallow?
Slainte Mhor!
Kurt
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End of Lambic Digest
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