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Lambic Digest #0836
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:30:08 -0600
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Subject: Lambic Digest #836 (April 26, 1996)
Lambic Digest #836 Fri 26 April 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Wild stuff, CR (Jim Liddil)
Phenolic Dekkera (formerly Brett)? (Algis R Korzonas)
New Glarus Brewing Co.? (Scott Bickham)
Pasteurizing Wild Beers (Kinney Baughman)
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 7:59:37 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Wild stuff, CR
> The DeDolle products that I have had have been examples of very good
> Brett beers. Again I have not bought in volume, but the half dozen or so
> that I have had have been consistently "good". I'd like to know more
> about how they structure their fermentations. These are high gravity
> beers that seem pretty stable in spite of Brett in the bottle. They tend
> to have Brett character that is not overly phenolic. I think that they
> are more enigmatic than Orval from a microbiological/fermentation
> standpoint. How'd they do that?
Yea. who cares about orval.
As far a spontaneous fermentation goes well it is not surprising the Kinney
gets such a fast fermentation. I bet the air in your brewery is loaded with
yeast and microorgansisms. All that sweet wort and high concentraions of yeast
present. Regardless of how well brewers "think" they clean their breweries
they really are quite infected. Get a YM plate and leave it out for an hour
and see what grows.
Norman says:
> While sipping on a 750 ml bottle of Lindeman's Cuvee Rene recently
> (you haven't lived until you've sucked down a whole bottle of this
> by yerself), I focused on the residual sweetness left in this product
> which very nicely balanced it's sourness. This bottle was dated 1994.
> My personal experiences with Pediococcus and Brettanomyces in producing
> plambics is that the product goes bone dry and becomes quite sour.
> I too can appreciate what blending can do.
Been there done that. Based on input from a knowledgable person it can be
suspected that this beer has a majority of young beer and a little old beer.
It is not pasterized. I have gotten yeast and a great slime producing bacteria
that sours wort really well out of the bottles. Maybe in a few years it will
dry out.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 11:49:22 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Phenolic Dekkera (formerly Brett)?
Todd writes:
>young beer it is very good. Frequently what we get here is bad in that
>the phenolics can be very objectionable, so much that you really have to
and:
>beers that seem pretty stable in spite of Brett in the bottle. They tend
>to have Brett character that is not overly phenolic. I think that they
Yikes! This is the *first* time I've ever heard phenolic character being
attributed to Dekkera (Brett). I've never tasted or smelled anything
phenolic in any of the Lambics/Lambieks I have had (and I've probably
had nearly a hundred glasses over the years, probably 15 or 20 varieties,
including a 5-year-old Drie Fonteinen Gueuze and a 17-year-old Cantillon
Gueuze).
Comments?
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:16:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: New Glarus Brewing Co.?
I was doing some web browsing today (during my lunch hour, of
course ;-) and ran into the following on the Breworld page:
Brewing Industry International Awards
22 April 1996
Theresults the most prestigious brewing competition held within the industry
world-wide, held at Burton on Trent in Febraury were announced at an Awards
ceremony at the Royal Hall on the first night of the 6th Brewing Technology
Conference.
The Competition is organised into nine Championships.......
.
International Speciality Beers Competition - Bottles
and Cans
The Bell-Vue Brewery, Belgium Belle-Vue Frambose (sic) Bronze Medal
The Hoegaarden Brewery,
Belgium Hoegaarden White Silver Medal
New Glarus Brewing Co, USA Belgian Red Gold Medal CHAMPION
...
The other categories had some top notch beers in them, but has anyone
heard of the New Glarus Brewing Company?
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Naval Research Laboratory, Code 6691 E-mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil
Complex Systems Theory Branch Home or BJCP: 7507 Swan Point Way
Washington, D.C 20375 Columbia, MD 21045
(202) 404-8632 FAX: (202) 404-7546 (410) 290-7721
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:48:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at conrad.appstate.edu>
Subject: Pasteurizing Wild Beers
Norm writes:
> My question is, how does one stabilize such a blended beer so that it
> doesn't continue to ferment out dry. The obvious answer is
> pasteurization. Anybody out there know anything about how Lindeman's
> achieves this flavor profile or have other ideas about stabilizing
> a sour beer? Any comments about what is blended in? Given their extensive
> experience with sweetened framboise and kriek, I suspect C R is pasteurized
> as well. Anyone out there developed a process to pasteurize beer
> at the homebrew level?
This is the big question in my mind these days. Ever since the GABF, I've
been hounded by people who want to know what it would take to put these
kinds of beers out on the commercial market. Pasteurization seems to be
the only avenue. I have no idea what it would take to pasteurize a beer,
though, much less one with a healthy culture of pedio in it. As long as
I'm brewing these kinds of beers in a brewpub, it really isn't necessary
for us to consider pasteurizing. I blend 'em, put 'em on tap and sell 'em.
It's a concern if I ever wanted to put them on the shelf -- and I'd like to
think I'd do that one day.
But pedio is a hardy little critter if there ever was one. From experience
I can say he laughs at boiling water and snickers at clorox. Peracetic has
been an effective controlling measure for us. But a couple of months ago,
it snuck into a batch of stout out of nowhere - the first time in a year
and a half it's showed up in a beer I hadn't intended it to be in.
(Fortunately, I know exactly what to do with it when I see it!)
The only data point in this regard comes from what I've read about Celis.
They evidently pasteurize to arrest the souring activity of the lacto bug I
presume they use in their Wit. Lacto is one thing. But pedio seems to be
much more tenacious. Or put it this way. If there is anything more
tenacious than pedio, I don't want to deal with it! :-)
There are others here that can speak from a more scientific point of view
on these matters. I've only been to the school of experience on this one.
And what an experience it's been!
A final note. Ironically, I haven't been brewing any of these beers since
the GABF. I have to fight my brewing staff (all the extra labor and effort
involved in keeping these beers where they belong) and the wait staff at the
restaurant (they don't understand them). But I reinoculated a stout with
an eye to produce the Black Framboise again a couple of months ago. It
went on tap last week and is currently out selling the Golden Ale and the
Stout. (The Amber Ale continues to be the best seller.) Now this is
Boone, NC, folks! It's been a long, educational haul for us but we
evidently have some believers down here now.
Long live the sour beers!
___ ----------------------------------------------------------- ___
| | Kinney Baughman | |
| | baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu | |
\ / \ /
| "Beer is my business and I'm late for work" |
---------------------------------------------------------------
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End of Lambic Digest
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