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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:30:12 -0600
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Subject: Lambic Digest #842 (May 03, 1996)
Lambic Digest #842 Fri 03 May 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Reference for Brett. and Dekkara (Scott Bickham)
Blending (Jim Liddil)
lambic FAQ's (Jeremy Bergsman)
second attempt ("Dave Suurballe")
Re: Lambic Digest #841 (May 01, 1996) (EDM)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 07:01:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Reference for Brett. and Dekkara
Todd wrote:
> I'll have to dig it out. However, it is an article about the effect of
> Brett/Dekkera on wine spoilage. It is a chapter in a series about
> chemistry and society. This particular year (1993 or 1994) was devoted
> to brewing and fermentation. I believe that George Fix may have posted a
> review in the HBD 2 years ago. I'm certain that others who participate
> in this forum are familiar with it.
Thanks for jogging my memory. It was in a book called Beer and Wine
Production, edited by Barry Gump and published by the ASBC in 1993. The
article itself is "Brettanomyces and Dekkara" and was written by
Fugelsang et al. from Cal State Fresno. A few quips: 'Various sensory
descriptors have been used to characterize Brettanomyces/Dekkera
tainted fermentations and their resultant wines. These include "cider"
and "clove-like", "spicy", "smokey", "medicinal" and "mousey". Other
frequent descriptors include "horsey", "wet wool" and "burnt beans."'
On page 123, there is a proposed pathway for the formation of volatile
phenols such as 4-vinyl phenol, 4-ethyl guaiacol and 4-ethyl-phenol.
Obviously I can't reprint the article here, but I know that when I
offered to send copies last year, only Jim Liddill, Todd Gierman
and maybe a few others took me up on it. I don't have the time
to make such a generous offer again, but the book can probably be
found in the library of any university with a food science department.
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 7:58:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Blending
Al Folsom asks:
> As I see it, there are three basic techniques. Just expose my wort to
> whatever wild creepy-crawlies are in the air, try to culture stuff from
> the dregs of a real lambic, or buy some cultures. Brewer's Resource
> has a Brett and a Pedio culture, so that's probably the way I'll go.
Yeast Culture Kit Company also sells stuf and it is a lot closer to you. Do
you want brett shipped all the way across the US in the summer?
>
> My gut feel was to make up something along the lines of a Wit wort,
> about 50% malt, and 50% flaked wheat, with maybe a little crystal.
> Ferment this with some normal yeast, maybe the Wit yeast I'm currently
> using, and then when it calms down, pitch the pedio and brett. Then,
> wait months on end and hope. Any suggestions on technique? Any clues
> on how to reliably sanitize this stuff out of my carboys when I'm done?
>
> Thanks in advance for any references or hints.
Read the FAQ and check the lambic pages. Get Guinard's Lambic.
Norman says:
> Now, I know the literature says that young lambic (4 months to
> one year old) is blended with old lambic for a refermentation
> in the bottle. Has anyone logged comparative gravity readings
> of lambics of various ages?
At Leuven they have done this.
One would assume that traditional
> bottle conditioning practices would apply here and that the
> gravity of the lambic to be bottled and refermented would need
> to be raised by 4 gravity points in order to achieve adequate
> carbonation.
I guess. Cantillon uses a 30/70 of young and old. Boon "claims" to use 5%
young and 95% old. Do the numbers. He must be using some pretty hihg gravity
"young" beer to get 2.5-30 volumes or even 2.
It might equally be true that this blending
> practice began with another goal in mind, that being to make
> something greater out of two lesser things. I can't really say
> as my current plambic had ANY malty sweetness left in it after
> 4 months. I'm wondering if in the real world of Lambic production,
> sugar for bottle conditioning isn't added in precisely measured
> amounts of fresh wort or ??? rather than from what
> to me seems like a massive blending process (2 parts young lambic
> to 1 part old lambic for example?)? Comments?
I feel because the innoculation concentration is relatively low and the
tmeperatures cold that real lambic attenuates slowly. This is also due to the
inhibitory effect of enteric bacteria. Thus real lamibc at 4-6 months is only
down to 1.018 or so. Blending is a hassle. But who said making lamibc was
easy. Porbably another reason why most lambic brewers have gone to using
forced carbonation etc. The traditional method is a pain. I did a belnding,
did all the gravity calculations and ended up with what is still a flat
product. Adding easily fermentable sugar to a lamibc is probably not done.
The bacteria would consume it before the yeast and one would end up with little
carbonation since the majority of bacteria are homofermentative. The use of
blending gives one a mixture of polysaccahrides that only the brettanomyces can
utilize (and some lactobaccillus) and thus you achieve carbonation slwoly. Or
at least that is the concept.
>
> Lanny Hoff said in the same issue:
>
> >A container with approximately 250 cases of Traditional De Troch
> >Gueuze has left Belgium, and will be in the United States within
> >three weeks.
>
> I hope this IS different than the De Troch Gueuze I recently
> purchased and commented about.
It is. Quite dry, full of brett character, moderate acidity.
>
> I know this is going to sound like a stupid question but I've only been
> lurking on the digest for a few months and need to know. Why do I often see
> "lambic" spelled "plambic"? Is this some variant of "lambic" I'm unaware of
> or is it simply hasty typing? Thanks.
> Marc
p=pseudo. This is not Belgium and we do not make spontaneously fermetned beer
in a tradional manner. So we make pseudo or pure culture or lambic-style beer.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 13:48:58 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: lambic FAQ's
Apologies if this is a repeat but the first try got bounced:
> From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
> Subject: First pLambic
> As I see it, there are three basic techniques. Just expose my wort to
> whatever wild creepy-crawlies are in the air, try to culture stuff from
> the dregs of a real lambic, or buy some cultures. Brewer's Resource
> has a Brett and a Pedio culture, so that's probably the way I'll go.
- -----
> From: Marc Gaspard <mgaspard at mailer.fsu.edu>
> I know this is going to sound like a stupid question but I've only been
> lurking on the digest for a few months and need to know. Why do I often see
> "lambic" spelled "plambic"? Is this some variant of "lambic" I'm unaware of
> or is it simply hasty typing? Thanks.
- ------------
Both of these issues are addressed in the the old and new lambic FAQs at:
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb/lambic/lambic.html
If you don't have web access drop me an email.
- --
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb
------------------------------
Date: 1 May 1996 16:14:04 -0800
From: "Dave Suurballe" <Dave_Suurballe at quickmail.apple.com>
Subject: second attempt
Mail*Link( SMTP second attempt
All Is Not Nectar in Peyottenland.
Last month I went to a friend's wedding in Amsterdam, and that gave me the opportunity for a short visit to Belgium.
I was in the country for 24 hours only, so I didn't do any beer hunting; I only went to places I already knew, and I only drank and bought beer I already knew. There didn't seem to be time for any other approach.
This was my second time in Belgium. The first was last summer, and the draft lambic was wonderful. This time it was horrible.
At the Oude Beersel, the lambic was only slightly sour and quite hoppy. The combination made the beer taste like a British Bitter gone off. I didn't like it. It didn't stop me from buying some bottles of gueuze, though. (I haven't tasted one yet).
At de Rare Vos, the lambic wasn't even beer yet; it was still wort. There was only the slightest hint of fermentation. In a "normal" sacchromyces ferment, I would guess it was less than a day old, but with spontaneous fermentation, I have no clue. It definitely was not beer; there was no alcohol, no acid, no brett, and no hop either. Just wort. The language incompatability kept me from finding out why this was.
It was a successful trip; I came out with 24 liters of beer. But I think I've also learned that that wonderful lambic stuff is incredibly more variable than I previously dreamed.
Maybe seasonal, too. Has anyone heard of "bad" times for lambic in Belgium? I don't want to plan my next trip during the off-season, if one exists.
Suurballe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 18:19:10 -0300 (ADT)
From: edm at fox.nstn.ca (EDM)
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #841 (May 01, 1996)
For the benefit of subscribers (and not my ego), some information on the
recent success of one of my pLambics in sanctioned competition. At March
in Montreal, late in March 1996, my O'er Framboise won the Belgian
Specialty (sour) Category, and also placed third in BOS. It is a decendant
of a lambic made from cultures given me by Mike Sharp at the AHA Milwaukee
Conf (Cantillon), and smuggled back across the border into Canada. This
one was actually a blend of a three year old framboise made with fresh
picked raspberries and a lesser, Pgueze-like thing made from a culture from
sediment in a bottle of Oerbier and some Brett. Submitting the straight
framboise would only be suitable for educated palattes like those of you
who are here. Last year, at the same competition (and one same judge)
they though my straight framboise was "too sour for a lambic". Such lies
the palatte that only drinks Mort Subite.
Jeff Pinhey, Halifax, NS, Canada
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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