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Lambic Digest #0855
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Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:30:07 -0600
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Subject: Lambic Digest #855 (May 25, 1996)
Lambic Digest #855 Sat 25 May 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Saison color and formulation (Pencil bytes)
Lambic Tasting Results (Pencil bytes)
Saison color and formulation (Pencil bytes)
Lambic Tasting Results (Pencil bytes)
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Date: 24 May 96 13:39:53 EDT
From: Pencil bytes <102373.2076 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Saison color and formulation
I'm planning on making a Saison to be enjoyed in the late summer, and researched
as much as I could on the style including sampling Foret, Dupont, Hommel bier,
Moirnet (sp?) and Dupont's Holiday. There are some implications that these are
small beers. Make no mistake -- a 1.065 beer is not "small" (and the day after
your head will attest to this :-).
I haven't seen much information on the grain bill of these. They must use some
amount of wheat. Jackson suggests that historically they used a turbid mash
schedule similiar to the lambics.
He also claims that Dupont has an "full orange color". The samples we had were
all cloudy, but most were pale. A homebrewed trippel made with all Hugh Baird
ale malt was darker than any of the Saisons. Does anybody know where the
reference to "orange" is coming from?
It seems that historically a wide array of spices are employed. There was hop
bitterness and flavor, but the flavor had melded with the spices making it
difficult to ascertain the variety used -- probably noble, but English or
German?
The head on these was immense. Big and rocky down to the last swallow. How do
they hold a head like that?
Finally, they finish on the drier side, which suggests to me that they employ
sugar, since they don't have the characteristics of a superattenuating
brettanomyces. Since they are pale, it also suggests that they probably would
not use any colored candy sugar. Anybody have any ideas on the use of sugar in
these beers?
Cheers,
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: 24 May 96 13:39:50 EDT
From: Pencil bytes <102373.2076 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Lambic Tasting Results
Last week I had the opportunity to have a small Lambic tasting with
Lanny Hoff of All Saints Brands. I had been promising him a bottle of
Hanssens Kriek that I brought back from Belgium last year. Also present
was a LD lurker who makes BOS Wits as Trippel starters :-)
We had 5 Lambics: 2 Gueuzes, 2 Krieks, and 1 Framboise.
When the Traditional Chapeau Gueuze goes on sale, it will have the same
label as the sweetened variety, and only be available in 375ml bottles.
It will have an additional label identifying it as "Traditional".
The Cantillon Grand Cru is not available in the U.S. It is made entirely
of Old Lambic. It is very similiar to the draft Lambic at the Museum in
Beersel. For those who think the regular Cantillon is too aggressive in
its acidity, I'd recommend two courses of action: 1) Lay it down for 3
to 5 years 2) Try the Grand Cru.
De Troch Chapeau Cantillon Grand Cru
Traditional Gueuze Bruocsella 1900
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottle 750ml bottle. Cork/Crown. 750ml bottle. Cork/Crown.
Inspection: Same label as sweetened
Chapeau.
Appearance: Hazy. Light honey Darker than Chapeau.
Apricot.
Bouquet/Aroma: Wet straw. Slight fecal. Sulphur/Mineral. Brett
Lots of Brett horseyness. not as fecal. More subtle.
Enteric.
Flavor: Strong acetic sourness. Soft acetic. Lemon with
Good barnyard flavor. sweetness. Complex, mineral,
Dry. soft horse-sweat Brett.
Body: A little thin. Fuller than Chapeau
Drinkability: Very good. Much like a Very good. Much softer
"regular" Cantillon. These "regular" Cantillon. Very
will probably soften with drinkable. Not nearly as
age. Nice complexity. sharp as expected, but tons
Excellent with food. of flavor and complexity.
The Cantillon Kriek was hand-carried back by myself when Cantillon
wasn't available in Minneapolis. After I got back, it was. I kept both
the Cantillon and the Hanssens in the refrigerator. I think if I had to
do it again, I would put the Hanssens there -- to help prevent blown
corks -- but I would store the Cantillon at room temperature.
I bought both of these at the Hopduvel warehouse in Ghent. The Hanssens
has no label -- only a pink stripe on it. It was also nasty with fruit
flies all over the bottles. If you plan to pick some up, bring cages,
and a towel or sponge to clean the bottles.
Cantillon Kriek Hanssens Kriek
(hand-carried from Belgium) (hand-carried from Belgium)
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottle 375ml bottle. Cork/Crown. 375ml bottle. Cork.
Inspection: These will blow if handled
roughly. Bring cages.
Moldy cork.
Appearance: Deep red. Pink head. Russet. Burnt orange.
Bouquet/Aroma: Cherry/Acetic. Vanilla. Sweeter than Cantillon.
Cherry stones. (not really Slight lactic acid. Toasted
an electrical fire :-) Sesame seed oil.
Soft brett.
Flavor: Very acetic/sour. Dry. Sweeter than Cantillon. Oaky.
Very smooth. Good Brett. Fresh sweet cherry flavor.
Sour cherry flavor. Subtle brett flavor.
Lactic tartness well balanced.
Body: Thin but flavorful. Full for style.
Drinkability: Very drinkable. "The first Richly complex with subtlety.
one that cleans the teeth." Wonderful cherry flavor.
Intense. Nice balance of acid/sweet/
cherry/brett.
At a recent BJCP class on Lambics, someone couldn't find the regular
Boon Framboise and brought the Mariage Parfait. I had it last year, and
enjoyed it tremendously, but this year was even better. As far as I can
tell, it is the same price as the regular Framboise. It is much more
enjoyable than Champagnes that I've had at 2 to 3 times the price. A
real gem in commercial lambics today.
Boon 1986 Mariage
Parfait Framboise
- ---------------------------------------------
Bottle 750ml bottle. Cork/Crown.
Inspection:
Appearance: Apricot.
Bouquet/Aroma: Fruity raspberry/bosenberry
Very soft brett characteristics.
Flavor: Rich fruit flavor.
Soft. Some brett.
Lasting fruit flavor.
Body: Nice medium body for style.
Drinkability: Extraordinary.
This is the Lambic that
best demonstrates that it
should be laid down for period
of time.
All 5 of these were superb for their style, and their individuality.
When the night came to a close with a request for best of show, we
couldn't come up with a clear winner. The Cantillon Grand Cru came
closest due to the rareness of it and how complex and drinkable it was.
The Traditional Chapeau was an excellent example of gueuze and will be
my first choice to serve with mussels. But then you go back and start
thinking of the Hanssens and the Boon, and ratings seem pretty damn
insignificant. As an Austrian friend recently remarked, "you are
competing, and we are enjoying -- just like life."
Cheers,
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: 24 May 96 20:35:19 EDT
From: Pencil bytes <102373.2076 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Saison color and formulation
I'm planning on making a Saison to be enjoyed in the late summer, and researched
as much as I could on the style including sampling Foret, Dupont, Hommel bier,
Moirnet (sp?) and Dupont's Holiday. There are some implications that these are
small beers. Make no mistake -- a 1.065 beer is not "small" (and the day after
your head will attest to this :-).
I haven't seen much information on the grain bill of these. They must use some
amount of wheat. Jackson suggests that historically they used a turbid mash
schedule similiar to the lambics.
He also claims that Dupont has an "full orange color". The samples we had were
all cloudy, but most were pale. A homebrewed trippel made with all Hugh Baird
ale malt was darker than any of the Saisons. Does anybody know where the
reference to "orange" is coming from?
It seems that historically a wide array of spices are employed. There was hop
bitterness and flavor, but the flavor had melded with the spices making it
difficult to ascertain the variety used -- probably noble, but English or
German?
The head on these was immense. Big and rocky down to the last swallow. How do
they hold a head like that?
Finally, they finish on the drier side, which suggests to me that they employ
sugar, since they don't have the characteristics of a superattenuating
brettanomyces. Since they are pale, it also suggests that they probably would
not use any colored candy sugar. Anybody have any ideas on the use of sugar in
these beers?
Cheers,
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: 24 May 96 20:35:17 EDT
From: Pencil bytes <102373.2076 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Lambic Tasting Results
Last week I had the opportunity to have a small Lambic tasting with
Lanny Hoff of All Saints Brands. I had been promising him a bottle of
Hanssens Kriek that I brought back from Belgium last year. Also present
was a LD lurker who makes BOS Wits as Trippel starters :-)
We had 5 Lambics: 2 Gueuzes, 2 Krieks, and 1 Framboise.
When the Traditional Chapeau Gueuze goes on sale, it will have the same
label as the sweetened variety, and only be available in 375ml bottles.
It will have an additional label identifying it as "Traditional".
The Cantillon Grand Cru is not available in the U.S. It is made entirely
of Old Lambic. It is very similiar to the draft Lambic at the Museum in
Beersel. For those who think the regular Cantillon is too aggressive in
its acidity, I'd recommend two courses of action: 1) Lay it down for 3
to 5 years 2) Try the Grand Cru.
De Troch Chapeau Cantillon Grand Cru
Traditional Gueuze Bruocsella 1900
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottle 750ml bottle. Cork/Crown. 750ml bottle. Cork/Crown.
Inspection: Same label as sweetened
Chapeau.
Appearance: Hazy. Light honey Darker than Chapeau.
Apricot.
Bouquet/Aroma: Wet straw. Slight fecal. Sulphur/Mineral. Brett
Lots of Brett horseyness. not as fecal. More subtle.
Enteric.
Flavor: Strong acetic sourness. Soft acetic. Lemon with
Good barnyard flavor. sweetness. Complex, mineral,
Dry. soft horse-sweat Brett.
Body: A little thin. Fuller than Chapeau
Drinkability: Very good. Much like a Very good. Much softer
"regular" Cantillon. These "regular" Cantillon. Very
will probably soften with drinkable. Not nearly as
age. Nice complexity. sharp as expected, but tons
Excellent with food. of flavor and complexity.
The Cantillon Kriek was hand-carried back by myself when Cantillon
wasn't available in Minneapolis. After I got back, it was. I kept both
the Cantillon and the Hanssens in the refrigerator. I think if I had to
do it again, I would put the Hanssens there -- to help prevent blown
corks -- but I would store the Cantillon at room temperature.
I bought both of these at the Hopduvel warehouse in Ghent. The Hanssens
has no label -- only a pink stripe on it. It was also nasty with fruit
flies all over the bottles. If you plan to pick some up, bring cages,
and a towel or sponge to clean the bottles.
Cantillon Kriek Hanssens Kriek
(hand-carried from Belgium) (hand-carried from Belgium)
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottle 375ml bottle. Cork/Crown. 375ml bottle. Cork.
Inspection: These will blow if handled
roughly. Bring cages.
Moldy cork.
Appearance: Deep red. Pink head. Russet. Burnt orange.
Bouquet/Aroma: Cherry/Acetic. Vanilla. Sweeter than Cantillon.
Cherry stones. (not really Slight lactic acid. Toasted
an electrical fire :-) Sesame seed oil.
Soft brett.
Flavor: Very acetic/sour. Dry. Sweeter than Cantillon. Oaky.
Very smooth. Good Brett. Fresh sweet cherry flavor.
Sour cherry flavor. Subtle brett flavor.
Lactic tartness well balanced.
Body: Thin but flavorful. Full for style.
Drinkability: Very drinkable. "The first Richly complex with subtlety.
one that cleans the teeth." Wonderful cherry flavor.
Intense. Nice balance of acid/sweet/
cherry/brett.
At a recent BJCP class on Lambics, someone couldn't find the regular
Boon Framboise and brought the Mariage Parfait. I had it last year, and
enjoyed it tremendously, but this year was even better. As far as I can
tell, it is the same price as the regular Framboise. It is much more
enjoyable than Champagnes that I've had at 2 to 3 times the price. A
real gem in commercial lambics today.
Boon 1986 Mariage
Parfait Framboise
- ---------------------------------------------
Bottle 750ml bottle. Cork/Crown.
Inspection:
Appearance: Apricot.
Bouquet/Aroma: Fruity raspberry/bosenberry
Very soft brett characteristics.
Flavor: Rich fruit flavor.
Soft. Some brett.
Lasting fruit flavor.
Body: Nice medium body for style.
Drinkability: Extraordinary.
This is the Lambic that
best demonstrates that it
should be laid down for period
of time.
All 5 of these were superb for their style, and their individuality.
When the night came to a close with a request for best of show, we
couldn't come up with a clear winner. The Cantillon Grand Cru came
closest due to the rareness of it and how complex and drinkable it was.
The Traditional Chapeau was an excellent example of gueuze and will be
my first choice to serve with mussels. But then you go back and start
thinking of the Hanssens and the Boon, and ratings seem pretty damn
insignificant. As an Austrian friend recently remarked, "you are
competing, and we are enjoying -- just like life."
Cheers,
Andrew
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
-------
