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Lambic Digest #0840
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:30:07 -0600
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Subject: Lambic Digest #840 (April 30, 1996)
Lambic Digest #840 Tue 30 April 1996
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Titanic (April 27, 1996) (Stephen D'Arcy)
competition reminder (Robert Paolino)
phenolic Dekk/Brett (Rob Lauriston)
Pasteurization (Norman Dickenson)
To Cuve'e or not to Rene (DAVE SAPSIS)
Traditional De Troch (SaintAle)
Brett/Dekkera and phenolic character (Algis R Korzonas)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:02:30 +0200
From: arcyste at dg1.cec.be (Stephen D'Arcy)
Subject: Titanic (April 27, 1996)
> In # LD837, Andrew R. Ruggles wrote:-
>Belgian Red, Titanic=20
>Titanic [terrible name -- and the marketing spiel on the label doesn't=
help]
>is brewed and bottled by Brasserie Le Cheval Blanc, inc. in Montreal.
>Basically, it is a Chimay Red clone. It is a fine example of it ...
Well, that's one beer that the Titanic Brewery Co. of Stoke-on-Trent,
United Kingdom, DOESN'T yet brew! They brew White Star (the name
od the shipping company), Premium, Captain Smith's (a native of=
Stoke-on-Trent),
Wreckage strong ale ... they don't yet brew a lager but when they do, it
will surely
be named Iceberg!
Don't suppose that the UK brewery will mind about the name - imitation =
being
the sincerest form of flattery, and all that ...
Stephen D'Arcy
67 rue des Atrebates, boite no. 5
B-1040 Brussels Belgium
Tel. (day) (02) 299.2.49; (eve) (02) 736.72.18
Fax: (02) 296.36.49. E-mail: arcyste at dg1.cec.be
Stephen D'Arcy is the author of "A Selective Guide to Brussels Bars",
available for =A33.00 UK bank cheque (payable to "CAMRA Brussels") /$US5.00
dollar bills, for non-British readers. It's a 40-page A4 (8.5 x 11 for
Americans)
publication, continually updated, with information on beers, breweries and=
bars;
not only in Brussels but also Pajottenland, Ghent, Bruges, Ostend, Antwerp,=
=20
Mechelen, Namur and elsewhere.
Mr. D'Arcy is also a major contributor to "The Good Beer Guide to Belgium &
Holland", by Tim Webb (2nd. edition - 1994) available as above:=
=A315.00/$US25.
____________________________________________________________________
Thought for the day: "The most happy marriage I can picture would be the
union of a deaf man to a blind woman" - Samuel Taylor Coleridge.
___________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 07:40:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Paolino <rpaolino at execpc.com>
Subject: competition reminder
Reminder!
The Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild
presents the
Tenth Annual Big and Huge Homebrew Competition (BJCP)
for higher gravity beers
Big=[1.050-1.060]
Huge>=1.060
11 May 1996
shipped entries due 4 May 96
(if you plan to be in town to judge, hint, hint... we will accept timely
preregistrations mailed to us: MHTG, P.O. Box 1365, Madison, WI
53701-1365 (not the shipping address)
rules are available by sending the message:
GET HUGE
to: madbrew-request at aviion.persoft.com
Bocks and doppelbocks accounted for the largest number of entries in a
style, but Belgian styles were 2nd or 3rd most prevalent, so send us those
dubbels, tripels, strong ales, and other big or huge Belgian brews (even
lambics) to be judged by our resident lambicheads and other Belg-o-philes
(including "Brewmaster Mitch," at least if he doesn't enter any of his
own....)
Now go have a beer,
Bob Paolino
Madison rpaolino at earth.execpc.com
You may now go back to your regularly-scheduled beer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 07:48 PDT
From: robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: phenolic Dekk/Brett
Al writes,
>Yikes! This is the *first* time I've ever heard phenolic character being
>attributed to Dekkera (Brett). I've never tasted or smelled anything
>phenolic in any of the Lambics/Lambieks I have had... Comments?
Over the course of a couple of years I made beers with what I grew from a
bottle of Cantillon. Goat, horse and soap were my preferred descriptors,
but I can imagine phenolic creeping in there. It's hard to avoid sliding
down the slippery slope of subjective definitions. I agree that it's
probably not phenolic in an analytical /chemical/scientific sense, but it's
sensory _impression_ that matters here, and that is very difficult to
standardize because of the very different range of experience of different
tasters.
And how can a lover of lambics espouse any sort of standardization <g>?
- -- Rob Lauriston in Vernon, B.C.
(B.C. is Buy Cuban, to hell with Jesse H.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 09:11:44 -0700
From: Norman Dickenson <norman.dickenson at sonoma.edu>
Subject: Pasteurization
Subject: Time: 8:32 AM
OFFICE MEMO Pasteurization Date: 4/29/96
In LD #837 Ed Harstead commented about a discussion of
pasteurizing plambics to achieve bottle stability.
>What is this American obsession with pasteurization?
>Am I missing something here?
While I now suspect that the traditional approach to
producing a pGueuze will probably work just fine, I see
no problem with discussing or even utilizing "artificial"
(read non-traditional) processes to achieve any brewing
goal (blasphemy, you say?) I personally don't want to
invest 60 gal. of pLambic in oak for two years and not
talk about options. If I can nail the narrow flavor profile
I'm shooting for by pasteurizing and can figure out how
to do it at the scale I'm working, I will not let
traditionalism stand in my way.
This is not to say I am not a great fan
of bottle conditioning beer. I am, but have been quite
happy with my practice of aging in kegs and counter
pressure filling bottles when I want to lay something
down for a couple of years or enter a competition. I
find I'm much happier drinking most beers on draft as God
intended:-)
Of note: I came across a DeTroch Chapeau Gueuze the other
day. It was the first time I had seen any but the sweet
fruited DeTroch products here in California. Despite it's
label claims of being bottle conditioned and the fact that
there was some sediment at the bottom, this product was
absolutely still! It had been corked and capped. It was also
cloyingly sweet and not to my liking. It's underlying lambic
character was interesting leaving me wishing that someone
would suggest to the brewer to tone down the sweetener.
-norman-
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 09:31:58 -0700
From: DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov (DAVE SAPSIS)
Subject: To Cuve'e or not to Rene
In LD 887, Jeremy writes of being dissapointed with Cuvee Rene. As
the Jim reponsible for stockloading Northern California beer geeks
with the cases he alluded to, and the proud owner of a (sadly
shrinking) stockpile myself, I gotta say I find his comparisons to
Boon quite baffling. Now, I am of the opinion that the Boon products
indeed show quite a range of variation, but in terms of overall trend,
they seem to be becoming distinctly less "aggressive" shall we say. A
few years ago, when I first had them, they struck me as intensely
sour, quite goaty/cheesey, and barnyard top to bottom. Over time,
they seem to have become less sour, distinctly less complex, but still
lots of Brett. Of course during this same period, my exposure to
lambics has undoubtedly led to a change in point of reference, so my
observations are confounded. However, numerous other local
lambicophiles have come to the same contention, namely, that Boon is
concertedly trying to make a more approachable product.
A few weeks ago, me and few folks got together and we did a straight
up comparison of Boon with the C R. Tasted the Boon first, and it came
across as a good traditional geueze. All the necessary stuff there--
quite pleasing. Being the first beer of the day, pretty assertive
overall character. Then had the C R. Woah nelly! No comparison.
The complexity of the beer was an order of magnitude higher. More
sour, more sweet toastiness, more brett, more fermetation complexity
-- basically more of everything. All five of us were in agreement
that not only was the C R considerably more challenging, we preffered
it ;->. Thats not to say that the Boon isnt nice, its just there's
not as much there there. Its quite possible that Jeremy has been
getting different character Boon than I (older?) but my suggestion
would be to do a side-by-side comparison. The difference was much
more pronounced than I would have expected based on past experiences
drinking the two beers at different times.
One other note concerning comments regarding the sweetness that Norm
spoke of and the dryness that Jeremy detected. I think both are
right. Namely, dryness in traditional lambics is relative, and when
Norm spoke of sweetness I think he would agree that C R is quite dry,
just that it has a beautifully delicate malt sweetness that rounds off
the assertive acidity. Compared to a Cantillon I had recently, C R is
absolutely sweet. However, if you are looking for something that is
really sweet, better stick with Belle Vue or somesuch. Those of you
that like traditional unsweetened lambics, however, should indeed seek
the C R out. And don't expect a Boon diluted with "blond ale".
--dave sapsis
dave at cdf.ca.gov
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:32:21 -0400
From: SaintAle at aol.com
Subject: Traditional De Troch
Fellow Lambic Digesters,
About six months ago, I made an announcement that De Troch would be
introducing "Traditional" Gueuze and Kriek on the US market.
As you know, that did not come to pass.
I have better news for everyone now.
A container with approximately 250 cases of Traditional De Troch Gueuze has
left Belgium, and will be in the United States within three weeks.
Since supply is very limited, I suggest that everyone that wants to get a
hold of some let me know directly, and I'll use that information to approach
our distributors and retailers across the country.
Wherever possible, make mention of a specific retailer, and be sure to let me
know where you are e-mailing from.
We are intending to bring at least 200-300 cases of this beer on each
container, so this is not a one-time deal. The beer is packaged in 375ml
bottles and will sell for the same price as the fruit beers.
If you have any questions, please let me know.
Yours,
Lanny Hoff
All Saint's Brands, Inc.
Saintale at aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 11:38:39 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Brett/Dekkera and phenolic character
I don't believe that it is likely that I am not sensitive to phenolic
characters such as clovey and smokey. You will recall a recent post of
mine in which I pointed out that a wild (mixed) culture that I picked
up in my kitchen had a definite clovey character for a few weeks and
then the character disappeared only to be replaced by lactic and
horsey aromas and flavours.
I also don't think that it is a case of my not having enough lambieks/
lambics... but just in case, I'll have a few in the next week or so
and see if perhaps I missed something. Alas, I have but Cantillon,
Drie Fonteinen and Boon in my cellar at this time, so it will be a rather
limited sample. Oh yes, I do have those three bottles of Oud Beersel,
but I'm not going to open one of them! I'm waiting for them to get ouder ;^).
Todd writes:
>Sift through the archived LDs and you'll see what you've been *missing*, or
>just forgotten about. Many wild yeasts contain an enzyme that can
>convert polyphenols (tannins) from one form to another. The converted
>compounds can be perceived as clove-like, smokey or medicinal. Surely,
>Dan McConnell must have discussed some of these compounds in his Spirit
>of Belgium Brett talk.
Been there... don't recall Dan saying anything about this. Furthermore, I
would suspect that there would be little point to yeasts producing enzymes
that broke down things and then just left them in the beer, right? If the
enzyme is there, then the organism is probably going to use up whatever it
has disassembled, right?
I did do a search for "phenols" in the 1995 Lambic archives and found several
people who were contrasting phenolic character with what they expected from
a good Lambi(c/ek) one post from Dave Klein regarding "perfumy phenols" in
Boon (???), a post from Scott Bickham in which he says that he tasted the
character of oxidative yeasts in `86 Boon MP in which they lent a character
that some may find "winey or phenolic" and one post from you, Todd in which
you suggest (in passing, mind you) that Brett breaks down starches and
polyphenols.
The search for "phenols" in the 1994 Lambic archives proved more fruitful,
but again, only Todd was suggesting that Brettanomyces had the capability
to convert anything to phenolic compounds. I did, however, find some
interesting information and something that may clarify this discussion.
Todd wrote:
>The turbid mash is probably important for producing Brett character in
>that it results in higher extraction of polyphenols from husks (does it
>not?) in addition to starch. Brettanomyces has the ability to convert
>these to even more aromatic compounds such as 4-vinyl guaiacol and
>4-ethyl phenol. The latter produces that oh so oaky aspect that the
>barrel owners seek (when it is at the right concentration). Higher
>amounts make it smoky and medicinal.
Okay, so the first part is speculation on Todd's part, but if he's right
about the 4-ethyl phenol, that would explain why I tasted oak in Jim's
BOS pGueuze despite it's being fermented in plastic. Ever since that
tasting, I had suspected that something in Lambic/Lambiek was creating
the oakiness and it was not the wood. Admittedly, I had forgotten about
Todd's post back in Dec of 1994.
Please also note that none of you except Jeremy have posted "oh yes, I get
lots of clovey character in Cantillon" or "Boon Geuze has a significant
medicianl note." You all pointed to literature or to common sense, not your
taste buds. I agree with John that there are certainly a lot of sources
for polyphenols in the production of Lambics/Lambieks, but the chemical
reactions that take place in these beers are probably an order of magnitude
as complex as those in "normal" beer production and there are said to be
over 200 chemical reactions taking place in the making of "normal" beer.
Given that complexity, nothing at all would surprise me even organisms that
simply remove all of a particular character from a beer.
Todd -- If you could post your reference for the creation of 4-ethyl phenol
by Brettanomyces, I would be most grateful.
I still stand by my assertion that what most of us would agree are "good"
Lambics/Lambieks simply do not have significant levels of "clovey," "smokey"
or "medicinal" aromas or flavours.
Al.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
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