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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 00:30:10 -0700
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Subject: Lambic Digest #732 (November 23, 1995)
Lambic Digest #732 Thu 23 November 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
re: Update: Brett in Scotch Ale (brewing chemist Mitch)
Brett in beer (Todd Gierman)
Liefmans and brett (Jim Liddil)
Brett in Scotch Ale (Norman Dickenson)
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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 08:16:44 -0600 (CST)
From: gellym at aviion.persoft.com (brewing chemist Mitch)
Subject: re: Update: Brett in Scotch Ale
In LD731, Mike Bovee says:
> I added the Brett (I cultured it from draft Liefmans Kriek-in Belgium!) to
> 1/3 of my 3.5 gal batch on Aug 5. Everything has been held at room temp.
> The split with the Brett now has a pronounced lactic-like sourness but is
> also considerably smoother. However, the control without Brett is also
> quite smooth but not sour. I will bottle this batch on the weekend.
Mike,
I know someone else will jump on this, but just in case: You do realize that
your Liefmans culture had more in it than just Brett, don't you ? Pediococcus
and/or lactobacillus are more than likely living in there as well.
The 'Brett in the Scotch ale' idea is an interesting one, and I would
certainly try a bottle of it. But a sour Scotch ale does not sound appealing
to me. Don't get me wrong, I certainly like my beer sour, but in the
appropriate style.
I just wanted to make sure you knew that the sourness was not emanating from
the Brettanomyces. It was not obvious from your post that you were aware of
this.
Regards,
Mitch
- --
-- Mitchell B. Gelly -- owner/brewmaster of the ManOwaR nano-Brewery --
software QA specialist, unix systems administrator, Usenet admin,
zymurgist, BJCP certified beer judge, brewer in the lambic style
-- gellym at aviion.persoft.com -- Existential Void Where Prohibited --
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 10:15:14 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: Brett in beer
Mike Bovee concludes, wrt his Brett/Scotch Ale experiment:
>Todd Gierman's response to my original post was that he did not think the
>Brett would give me what I wanted and he was right. But the experiment had
>to be done! Todd has used Brett in non-lambic beers and has noticed
>chemical/leathery flavors. While I do not have these flavors (just the
>sourness) the sour beer is not bad and I may blend some of it with a
>Flanders Brown that I have aging in glass.
First off, we all applaud your adventuresome spirit. Now...I don't think
you pulled off your experiment as planned and suggest that you will have to
do it all over again :-) The main flaw in the execution of your experiment
is that there is no evidence that Liefmans contains any Brett. So, you may
not have added any Brett at all (great culture acquisition though!). A
noticeable difference between your experimental batch and control batch may
be the result of bacteria that are in the culture.
Okay, back to what I apparently said several months ago. What I am certain
that I meant by saying that you wouldn't get what you wanted from the Brett
was this: the smoky flavors imparted by the yeast may not be very
pleasant as they are very chemical-like, and "industrial" or "toxic waste"
qualities are generally not desired in a drinkable beer. Yes, they can be
very interesting when present at low levels. I would find them somewhat
intrusive in a Scotch ale at anything but very low levels, I think.
I have never used Brett in non-lambic beers (well, not exactly true, but
close enough pending bottling and tasting of a two year old Old Red).
However, I have tasted some of the results produced by others. Generally,
they have been interesting and pleasant. Generalizing heavily, I would say
that roasted grains + Brett seems to give a "leather" emphasis. Without
roasted grains the flavor is much smoother - tart and winy. The higher
gravity DeDolle products (Oerbier and Stille Nacht) are examples of what
Brett can do in high gravity beers [I think that Bos Kuen may also have
Brett but haven't checked]. These beers also probably contain a lactic bug
in addition to a Brettanomyces lambicus culture. A friend pitched some of
this Br. lambicus into a split-batch barley wine and got something that was
a little tarter and a little winier than the controls. No smoke. What you
get may also be dependent on the culture that you use. I think that a lot
of people have experimented with Brett in non-lambic beers, but we don't
hear much about it because they were not very enthusiastic about the
results.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 8:32:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Liefmans and brett
> I added the Brett (I cultured it from draft Liefmans Kriek-in Belgium!) to
> 1/3 of my 3.5 gal batch on Aug 5. Everything has been held at room temp.
> The split with the Brett now has a pronounced lactic-like sourness but is
> also considerably smoother. However, the control without Brett is also
> quite smooth but not sour. I will bottle this batch on the weekend.
Since when does Liefmans contain brett? Did you isolate this yeast on
cycloheximide agar with caco3 and get a zone of clearing? Does it develop
pseudomycelia? Sounds like you cultured lactic acid bacteria to me.
>
> In conclusion I don't recommend Brett as a way to *smoke* a Scotch Ale. In
> the future I intend to *cheat* by using some of HopTech's peat-smoked malt
> until a more authentic means of reproduction can be approximated.
The experiment is far from conclusive lacking proper controls etc.
Jim
jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu Tucson, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 08:52:08 -0700
From: Norman Dickenson <Norman.Dickenson at sonoma.edu>
Subject: Brett in Scotch Ale
Subject: Time: 8:23 AM
OFFICE MEMO Brett in Scotch Ale Date: 11/22/95
On the Nov. 22 Digest, Mike Bovee discussed his use of
Brettanomyces in Scotch Ale saying:
>several folks on this forum cited literature that suggested Brett sp. could
produce *smoky* andmedicinal flavors.>
>I added the Brett (I cultured it from draft Liefmans Kriek-in Belgium!) <
Just as there are many varieties of traditional brewers yeast which
provide a whole spectrum of flavors and values, so are there also
many varieties of Brettanomyces which impart various characteristics.
I suspect that Brett from Liefmans Kriek is not the same Brett
resident in the massive wooden aging vessels of >Old/Stock/Scotch
Ales<.
Brian Nummer in his HEAD START BREWING CULTURES catalogue
lists two Brett strains in his inventory which were isolated from
cask conditioned English Ale and Dublin Stout. They are listed
separately from three strains of Brett found in lambic beers
he also has in inventory. I have not used those two, and so cannot
report on their flavor influences, nor are my comments intended to
be a plug for his business. I have, though, been a satisfied
customer in the past. He is a helpful resource.
Two years ago, a brewing buddy and I blended our Imperial Stouts
(100+ O.G.) to achieve a better product. Mine did not attenuate well,
his attenuated out but was "rough". We bottled. About six months
later, a Brett sourness began developing in the blended bottles.
It was discovered that my buddy's "control" stout had the same
Brett character. While I liked the added complexity, the beer was
badly slammed in two competitions for having Brett sourness
and being out of style (what do judges know anyway?) . After
two years in the bottle, this is the most heavenly exotic and
complex beer I have ever produced. My brewing partner and I are
closely guarding our remaining stash of 5 bottles.
Norman Dickenson
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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