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Lambic Digest #0711
Subject: Lambic Digest #711 (October 13, 1995)
Author: lambic at lance.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription
requests here) at Internet
Date: 10/13/95 3:53 AM
Lambic Digest #711 Fri 13 October 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Dubbel (Alan Folsom)
Re: Orval clone in SoB II (Scott Bickham)
my first p-lambic (Nikolaus Matheis)
pLambic Culture Photos (Jim Liddil)
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
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Phil Seitz' series on Brewing Belgian Beer is available; the index
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 16:24:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Salt City Competition
Although this doesn't specifically relate to Belgian beers, here is
a message from Kieran O'Connor announcing his club's competition.
He promises to be ensure that the Belgian styles are accurately
judged by qualified people.
Scott Bickham
- --------------- forwarded message-------------------
Announcing the Salt City Brew Club's (Syracuse, NY) 10th annual contest.
We hope you'll enter and/or judge at our annual competition. here's why
you should do so:
1) Best fo Show First prize earns a $200 gift certificate to a local shop
(he also does mail order)
2) ****We'll take any size bottle, any color bottle, and even carbonators
(which will be returned).*****
3) We have nifty prizes for each category.
4) We'll be having a mini pub crawl after the event
5) There are spiffy extras for those who judge/steward.
6) Meads and ciders will have their own best of show. The Best of Show
prize is a $50 gift certificate, and 3 bottles of commercial mead.
If you'd like a competition packet, please email me, or call (315)
449-2844. Write to Kieran O'Connor, 313 Cooper Lane, DeWitt, NY 13214.
The contest date is November 11, deadline for entries, October 28.
Kieran
koconnor at syr.edu
- --
====================================================================
E-Mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil 7507 Swan Point Way
Columbia, MD 21045
FAX: (202) 404-7546 (410) 290-7721
====================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:55:39 -0500 (EDT)
From: rgmail at ekman.unh.edu (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: Het Elfde Gebod
I was just given a bottle of Het Elfde Gebod, 11th Commandment ale.
The label appears to be in Flemish, brewed by Arcense brewery in Arcen.
It has this terric front label of a devilish red Pan-like creature offering
a cup to a fair-skinned naked reclined maiden.(!)
Can anyone tell me more about this brew?
/-----------------------------------------------------\
Russell Gelinas
Experimental Space Physics/Ocean Process Analysis Lab
University of New Hampshire, Durham NH (USA)
gelinas at ekman.unh.edu
\-----------------------------------------------------/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 09:07:15 +0100
From: etmtvop at etm.ericsson.se (Ton van Opstal)
Subject: RE: Het Elfde Gebod
Russel Gelinas asked information about Het Elfde Gebod, 11th Commandment ale.
> The label appears to be in Flemish, brewed by Arcense brewery in Arcen.
> It has this terric front label of a devilish red Pan-like creature offering
> a cup to a fair-skinned naked reclined maiden.(!)
This brew is made in The Netherlands since 1991 (I belief). It was brewed by
"Verenigde Bierbrouwerijen Breda-Rotterdam" (VBBR), situated in Breda. Later
this brewery changed its name to "Oranjeboom Bierbrouwerij BV". When Oranjeboom
took over the Arcense Bierbrouwerij in Arcen (The Netherlands), production was
moved to Arcen which is specialized in high fermentation beers.
It is an amber colored beer, 7% (?), but rather strong when you drink it. Quite
a nice beer. It is exported to England, maybe other countries as well.
The 11th commandment is made up for marketing purposes. It states "Gij zult
genieten" (You shall enjoy).
Enough information?
Ton van Opstal
Dutch Beer Lover
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:30:51 -0500 (EDT)
From: rgmail at ekman.unh.edu (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: Het Elfde Gebod - thanks
Thanks to all for the info. on Het Elfde Gebod. I apologize for
asking about a non-Belgian beer on this list. I guess I figured that
that "devilish" label could only originate from Belgium. Yes, it is
7% alcohol, btw.
Russ
gelinas at ekman.unh.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 16:41:02 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Wort Similar Sugar
About a year ago their was talk of wort similar sugar at the Spirit of Belgium
comp. Based on the notes I got from the talk and some investigation I think I
have found a like product here in the US. It is corn syrup. Now corn starch
can be hydrolyzed to smaller dextrins with enzyems and acid. The degree of
hydrolysis determines the product. Taken to completion we end up with glucose.
WSS is around 35% glucose, 30% maltose 15% trisaccharides and the rest polymers
of 4 glucose units or more. Corn syrup is designated by its dextrose
equivalency. Anyway DE 62 corn syrup has this make up. One source is
Northwestern Extract and the get it from ADM. It is called brewers corn syrup.
I have found that many shops don't carry it and are reluctant to order "corn
syrup" Not just any corn syrup will do. It needs to be DE 62. Maybe if their
is interst shops will be more likely to carry it. It is sure cheaper than
belgian candy sugar.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 95 10:18:13 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: sugars
Jim writes:
>can be hydrolyzed to smaller dextrins with enzymes and acid. The degree of
>hydrolysis determines the product. Taken to completion we end up with glucose.
>WSS is around 35% glucose, 30% maltose 15% trisaccharides and the rest polymers
>of 4 glucose units or more. Corn syrup is designated by its dextrose
>equivalency. Anyway DE 62 corn syrup has this make up.
and:
>syrup" Not just any corn syrup will do. It needs to be DE 62. Maybe if their
>is interst shops will be more likely to carry it. It is sure cheaper than
>belgian candy sugar.
I agree that the sugar profile of DE 62 is much more similar to wort than
straight glucose (dextrose, i.e. the granular corn sugar we usually see at
HB supply stores), so it would be a better protein dilutant if that's what
you're looking for. However, if you are looking for belgian candi sucre
substitute, my suggestion would be cane sugar. White candi sucre is almost
all sucrose and so is white table (cane) sugar.
Simply from tasting, my guess regarding dark candi sucre is that it is
caramelized a little. Therefore, brown sugar, as many have suggested as
a substitute is absolutely the wrong flavour. If indeed it is simply
caramelization, I think that the easiest way to get a substitute for dark
candi sucre would be to mix up some table sugar and water in a beaker or
flask and boil it till it gets dark. No acids or anything -- we're not
trying to make invert sugar here. Can anyone check on the production of
dark candi sucre? Is Philippe still a subscriber?
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 95 08:26:00 PDT
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: What do with an empty cask
I just recently emptied my wooden cask of Belgium nectar and since it
will be several months before I can fill it again with wort and I won't
be able to tend to it, what is the consensus for how to store them long
term?
thanks
martin
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:19:02 -0400
From: drbeer at tiac.net (drbeer)
Subject: Het Elfde Gebod
Can't say anything about the beer but it does share its name with an
excellent bar in Antwerp. The place is jammed full of religious icons and
is directly across from one of Antwerp's main churches. Perhaps the beer
takes its name from this bar. I vaguely recall the bar had a house beer but
I'm not 100% sure without checking my tasting notes and who knows where
those have gotten to :-)
Jay
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalt's
This is a key free document, no keyboards were harmed in its creation.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 07:55:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: ejk at bselab.bls.com (Evan Kraus)
Subject: DE 62
Didn't get this in in the last post.
Who Mail orders it ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 07:53:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: ejk at bselab.bls.com (Evan Kraus)
Subject: DE 62
Since the DE 62 was brought up.
Has anyone got any places that might sell it ?
Evan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:22:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Spirit of Belgium II
Hello:
This is advance notice that a second Spirit of Belgium Homebrew
Competition that be hosted in February by Brewers United
for Real Potables (BURP). There will not be a conference this
time around, but we feel that the competition is A Good Thing
and something we can do on an annual basis. In addition to
the competition, we will also host a Belgian beer tasting
and plenty of free beds for out of town judges. The style
guidelines will be the ones written by Phil Seitz with the
help of the readers of the Lambic Digest: Belgian Ale, Belgian
Strong Ales, Doubles, Triples, White Beers, Oud Bruins, pLambic
and pGueuze, pLambic with fruit.
This should give you plenty of time to fire up those brew kettles
and/or get some of your latest lambic into bottles. The details
of the competition will be posted here as they develop. Organizers
will be Rick Garvin, Tom Cannon and myself.
Cheers, Scott
- --
====================================================================
E-Mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil FAX:(202) 404-7546
Office: Naval Research Laboratories Home and BJCP:
Code 6691, Complex Systems 7507 Swan Point Way
Washington, D.C 20375 Columbia, MD 21045
(202) 404-8632 (410) 290-7721
====================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:36:19 -0600
From: Shawn Steele <shawn at aob.org>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #708 (October 10, 1995)
The list of Great American Beer Festival Professional Panel Blind
Tasting winners is available by sending e-mail to info at aob.org and
including the key word "WINNERS" somewhere in the body of the text.
- shawn
Shawn Steele
Information Systems Administrator
Association of Brewers (303) 447-0816 x 118 (voice)
736 Pearl Street (303) 447-2825 (fax)
PO Box 1679 shawn at aob.org (e-mail)
Boulder, CO 80306-1679 info at aob.org (aob info)
U.S.A. http://www.aob.org/aob (web)
Note: When replying to my messages, please include enough of my
message so that I know what you're replying to! :-)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 17:45:27 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: DE 62
Evan asks about DE 62.
Currently, as far as I know, nobody retails DE 62. I have investigated
the possibility of carrying it at my store (and, subsequently taking
mailorders for it), but the problem is that I can't buy a small amount
and if I buy 675 pounds of it, would I end up throwing 625 of it out?
Given that I have pointed out in a previous post that while DE 62 may
have it's place in brewing, sucrose is what you want for sucre candi.
Is there really enough interest in DE 62?
Sorry about the commercial nature of this post, but I am trying to answer
Evan's question.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:20:32 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Commercial Break?
Al K. writes about DE 62.
> if I buy 675 pounds of it, would I end up throwing 625 of it out?
Pretty likely.
> ... sucrose is what you want for sucre candi.
> Is there really enough interest in DE 62?
Pretty unlikely.
> Sorry about the commercial nature of this post, but I am trying to answer
> Evan's question.
The rule of thumb that I have heard on other lists is that commercial
"announcements" are acceptable, whereas commercial "advertisements" are not.
I think that should apply here as well. Basically, any information that is
relevant to my lambic brewing, I want to read, even if someone might make
a little money from it.
Speaking of which - Al, what's the word on the soft winter wheat? Do we have
to wait until winter? (I guess that would explain the name...) Are you still
planning to carry it? (Do you already have some?)
-R
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 16:28:15 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: DE 62
Geez, I'm sure glad some people have more science background than I do;
credit to Jim Liddil for figuring out that this stuff exists.
As I recall it from SOB (no notes at hand), Eric Tofte said
wort-similar sugar was needed when the amount of sugar added to the
wort exceeded a certain percentage of the available fermentable sugar.
I believe this was 20%. The reason to switch from candy sugar to
wort-similar at this point had to do with yeast's metabolic needs.
Presumably this would allow for digestion of a greater portion of the
sugar into alcohol, rather than having all those embarassing stuck
ferments and high terminal gravities.
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 16:28:16 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: SofB II
Scott writes:
>The style
>guidelines will be the ones written by Phil Seitz with the
>help of the readers of the Lambic Digest: Belgian Ale, Belgian
>Strong Ales, Doubles, Triples, White Beers, Oud Bruins, pLambic
>and pGueuze, pLambic with fruit.
Ok, so which category should be used for an Orval clone?
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 05:35:21 -0700
From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
Subject: Dubbel
OK, so this is not lambic related, but the title does say "other
Belgian Styles" or something to that effect...
I am hoping to brew a Dubbel soon, and have procurred some Dark Candi
sugar, and will be getting a hopefully appropriate yeast strain from
BrewTek (unless someone has strong recommendations otherwise), but am
looking for some help in formulating a good recipe. Any suggestions,
ranging from hints to complete recipes, would be appreciated.
On a tangentially related note, does anyone have any comments on the
"Belgian Ales" book in the beer style series? (I forget the author).
It readsd well, but the recipes frequently call for unusual
ingredients. Is there any experience out there with this book and it's
recommendations?
As usual, thanks in advance for any help.
Al Folsom
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:52:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Orval clone in SoB II
Al asked:
>
> Ok, so which category should be used for an Orval clone?
>
>From last years descriptions:
2) Belgian strong ale
Guidelines: 1.062-1.120, 6-12% ABV, 16-30 IBU, 3.5-20 SRM
Pale to dark brown. Low hop bitterness and aroma ok, should blend with
other flavors. Medium to high esters in flavor and aroma. Phenols ok.
Often highly aromatic. Spices or orange ok. Strength evident, but alcohol
flavor subdued or absent. Medium to full body, sometimes with a high
terminal gravity. Medium to high carbonation. No roasted flavors or
diacetyl.
Description: Should be formulated to show off yeast character, with all
other ingredients playing a supporting role. The flavor may be subtly
complex, but should not be crowded. Body is comparatively light for beers
of this strength, due to use of brewing adjuncts or of pilsner malt only.
High carbonation also helps; these beers should feel like mousse on the
palate and have an impressive head. The best examples may be noticeably
strong but still have no alcohol flavor. Flemish examples tend toward
higher terminal gravities (1.025-1.050). Trappist and Saison clones should
be should be submitted in this category.
Scott
- --
====================================================================
E-Mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil FAX:(202) 404-7546
Office: Naval Research Laboratories Home and BJCP:
Code 6691, Complex Systems 7507 Swan Point Way
Washington, D.C 20375 Columbia, MD 21045
(202) 404-8632 (410) 290-7721
====================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:42:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nikolaus Matheis <psu04289 at odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Subject: my first p-lambic
In the beginning of September I brewed my first p-lambic. I made ~5
gallons with 70% Belgian Pils & 30% wheat flakes. I used my own special
version of the turbid mash. I used the basic time/temp intervals
descibed in the LD as a guide. However, when it came time to boost the
temp, I decocted all the liquid I could get, brought it to a boil, and
added it back. It worked swell. I attained the temps I wanted and
didn't have to worry about not having a big enough boiler or fussing with
two boilers. Also a surprise was that my extraction rate was just about
as good as my normal extraction rate (~80% vs ~85%). I sparged with
~200F water, accumulating ~7 gallons. I boiled with 4oz 2.5 year old
noble hops. Ilet it cool overnight on my stovetop with the lid very
slightly ajar (a la Jim Liddle). The next morning, I split the batch
between a 6 gallon carboy and a 2 gallon new Am. oak cask and pitched
with Wyeast Scottish (it was on hand), Brewtek's Pedio and B lambicus,
and the now dubious Wyeast S cervisae w/trace amounts of B brux(it's
strange how quickly it took off, but still formed a pellicle - film
w'growing bubbles trapped underneath).
Anyway, it's only been about 1.5 months, and I'm already seeing
small white colonies forming on top of a clear film under which large
bubbles are forming and being trapped. I'm assuming that the film is
Brett's pellicle (it looks like the one on the Wyeast starter). But what
iare the small(~1mm dia) white colonies on top of it? This wouldn't be
Pedio would it? Also, for my aeration technique - I did nothing. I
thought that this would ensure a slooow Sach ferment and allow Brett,
Pedio, and anyting else that got in a fighting chance at getting going.
Is this reasonable thinking? Also, how many of you out there aerate your
p-lambics? How many of you that do have had trouble with Pedio and/or
Brett? I haven't seen this topic in the archives, but have noticed that
many of you have had problems with Pedio and Brett - maybe it's because
tou treat your p-lambics like normal beers and aerate the hell out of them.
Sorry about the looong post, but it has been quiet(!) around here
lately.
TIA,
Nikolaus W. Matheis
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:57:01 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: pLambic Culture Photos
On my web page (http://radon.gas.uug.arizona.edu:80/~jliddil/) I now have an
Adobe Acrobat pdf file that has some photos of yeast colonies, pedio colonies,
a pellicle etc. These are at 72 dpi to keep the file small so it loads
relatively fast. I have each image as a 24 bit jpeg (~2000 x 2000 dpi) and can
send the uuencoded to those who want to really see detail. When I get things
worked out these may be on my page also. For now I lack drive space. If you
have any input on these let me know. In time I will probably get more photos on
line when we debug the whole process.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 09:20:38 EST
From: tfields at relay.com
Subject: Re: Belgian Ales book
In #711, folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom) writes:
>On a tangentially related note, does anyone have any comments on the
>"Belgian Ales" book in the beer style series? (I forget the author).
>It readsd well, but the recipes frequently call for unusual
>ingredients. Is there any experience out there with this book and
>it's recommendations?
There is a fairly sizable document in the archives that lists what are
described as "corrections" (and comments I believe) or some such for
this book. If memory serves, some of these relate to recipe
ingredients. I'll try to figure out exactly which archive doc it is
in and repost when/if I do.
-Tim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"reeb!"
Tim Fields ... Fairfax, VA
74247.551 at compuserve.com _or_ timfields at aol.com (weekends)
timf at relay.com (non-brewing time)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 14:09:51 -0400
From: bhall at sparc.ecology.uga.edu
Subject: Orval clones
>2) Belgian strong ale
>Guidelines: 1.062-1.120, 6-12% ABV, 16-30 IBU, 3.5-20 SRM
>Pale to dark brown. Low hop bitterness and aroma ok, should blend with
>other flavors. Medium to high esters in flavor and aroma. Phenols ok.
>Often highly aromatic. Spices or orange ok. Strength evident, but alcohol
>flavor subdued or absent. Medium to full body, sometimes with a high
>terminal gravity. Medium to high carbonation. No roasted flavors or
>diacetyl.
As a lover and occasional imitator of Orval, the style description for Belgian
strong ale still leaves me unsatisfied. While I read at the bottom that
trappists and saisons should be submitted in the strong ale category, Orval and
saisons are really different than these descriptions. Orval has high hop aroma,
high bitterness (is it over 30 IBU?), low OG (for a trappist). In short it is a
very non-trappist trappist style.
I suppose what has to happen is that a knowledgeable judge recognizes that it
is an Orval clone, and thus judges it as such, even though it significantly
deviates from the style guidelines.
What if there were a catch-all Belgian subcategory for idiosyncratic beers
(akin to the specialty category) where an entrant identified to the judge the
intended match, for example Orval, saisons, Ara, etc.? Obviously a judge will
have to know about these beers, but that is true for all categories.
Just a thought....
Bob Hall
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 15:47:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Specialty Belgian beers
Regarding Al's question about where to put his Orval clone.
Spencer pointed out that it doesn't necessarily fit the
Belgian strong category because of its strong hop character,
so we'll probably add a specialty beer category to catch
anything that falls through the cracks.
Now the good news - I'll finally be able to brew my first lambic
since we moved to Maryland. I plan to pitch 50 ml mini-starters
of Kloeckera, Wyeast 1056, Brett. Lambicus and Brux., Pediococcus,
Lactobacillus and Candida Lambicus. I also have starters for
a weizen and an American wheat, so hopefully I can keep
everything straight.
Cheers, Scott
- --
====================================================================
E-Mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil FAX:(202) 404-7546
Office: Naval Research Laboratories Home and BJCP:
Code 6691, Complex Systems 7507 Swan Point Way
Washington, D.C 20375 Columbia, MD 21045
(202) 404-8632 (410) 290-7721
====================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 06:15:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: isenhour at alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (John Isenhour)
Subject: SoB belgian strong, lambic questions
I have a few questions about the strong ale catagory. I have a strong
belgian ale that is alcoholic tasting and super estery in a pleasant
way. It began life as a tripel, but has probably dried out too much to
be perfect for that style and I was wondering where it might fit. This
made me look at the strong catagory.
> 2) Belgian strong ale
> Guidelines: 1.062-1.120, 6-12% ABV, 16-30 IBU, 3.5-20 SRM
> Strength evident, but alcohol flavor subdued or absent.
How does one get 12% abv and have subdued alcohol flavor?
Would Scaldis do well here? Would you put a Duvel clone here?
What a grab bag this makes for - I was just at the MN brewfest where my
gueuze took second against a wit, but beat out a tripel - gad.
Also, we kegged some of the summer gueuze made at the brewery, it has
been stored (for lack of space) in the cheapswill serving area at 38 deg
f. I tapped some to show Jackson at the above brewfest, and it tastes
like its loosing acid! This is really wierd, anybody know whats up
and how to fix it?
I got some fresh Hansens recently and want to scale that up and maybe mix
with my Boon starter - anybody had luck with Hansens?
cheers,
-john
- --
John Isenhour "unix is not your mother"
National High Energy Physics Network Management isenhour at hep.net
Library & Information Science isenhour at uiuc.edu
Brewmaster - Joe's Brewery, Champaign IL (gueuze, framboise, wit, tripel)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 95 10:07:00 EDT
From: Rick Garvin <rgarvin at btg.com>
Subject: Re: SoB Belgian Strong
John Isenhour asks:
>How does one get 12% abv and have subdued alcohol flavor?
In my experience, the key with a Belgian Strong is balance. The easiest
thing to get out of balance are alcohol and body. I want a strong to be
seductively drinkable with noticable alcohol warmth without the fusel heat
that is too often present. I think that yeast selection is key.
See you at SoB, Rick
=====================================================================
| Rick Garvin (RG79) BTG, Inc. |
| Senior Systems Engineer Information Systems Group |
| Internet Systems Architect 1945 Old Gallows Road |
| rgarvin at btg.com Vienna, VA 22182 |
| rgarvin at burp.org 800-548-7544 x6630, 703-761-6630 |
| http://www.btg.com/~rgarvin FAX 703-761-3245 |
=====================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 7:34:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Loss of Acidity
John writes:
> Also, we kegged some of the summer gueuze made at the brewery, it has
> been stored (for lack of space) in the cheapswill serving area at 38 deg
> f. I tapped some to show Jackson at the above brewfest, and it tastes
> like its loosing acid! This is really wierd, anybody know whats up
> and how to fix it?
The process is called esterification. When you combine an acid and it's
coorsponding alcohol you get ester formation. Mainly ethyl acetate and lactate.
It is not weird it it was happens in casks in Belgium.
You can fix it by stopping the reaction. Filter the sutff down to 0.2 micron
to remove all micro-organisms.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 95 10:44:20 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: losing acid
John writes:
>Also, we kegged some of the summer gueuze made at the brewery, it has
>been stored (for lack of space) in the cheapswill serving area at 38 deg
>f. I tapped some to show Jackson at the above brewfest, and it tastes
>like its loosing acid! This is really wierd, anybody know whats up
>and how to fix it?
Not weird at all... expected. That 17 year old Gueuze I tasted at
Cantillon was not very acidic at all. I asked Jean-Pierre about this
and he confirmed that lambiks lose acidity as they age. I believe that
the yeast takes it and, along with the alcohols, turns them into esters
or something like that...
The same was even more obvious in a 5 year old Gueuze from 3 Fonteinen.
Fresh, their Gueuze is harshly acid - burns the throat. The 5 year old
was soft and much less acid.
As if we needed more complexity in this "Homebrewing of Lambieks" grail...
How to fix it? Make more!
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 13:19:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nikolaus Matheis <psu04289 at odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Subject: pellicle
I recently wrote in about my first p-lambic. I described the trnsparent,
CO2 catching pellicle that formed on top of the p-lambic in my carboy.
What might this be? I also think I forgot to mention that I have the
hose coming out of my carboy in a jar plugged with cotton wool. I hope
this will give the beasties the small amounts of Oxygen they seem to
love.
The surprising thing, however was the thick white pellicle formed in my 2
gallon oak cask. The fermentation is going much faster in that small
vessel. I wish I had a 5 gallon cask so that the volume difference would
not be a factor. The carboy is quite murky, but the liquid I pipetted
from the cask was quite clear after only one month. It tasted sour and
quite clean. It seems not to have much Brett in it yet. Th surface
inside the cask is covered with a thick(3-5mm) creamy white pellicle very
much different than the one in the carboy. This pellicle stuck to my
pipette, and so I was able to observe it close-up. It looked like the
mold covering brie, only thcker. It was quite soft, kind of like cream
cheese. What might this be - Brett? Pedio? something else?
Anyway, whatever they are, the p-lambic in the cask seems to be coming
along, well...GREAT! I just hope the p-lambic in my carboy does as
well. Thanks for providing a forum with so many helpful comments and
discussions. I feel that without this forum, I would be stumbling around
in the dark concerning my p-lambic. Instead I feel well armed with
curiousty and knowledge.
Thanks,
Nikolaus W. Matheis
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Spirit of Belgium Homebrew Competition
Brewers United for Real Potables (BURP) is proud to announce
that there will be a second Spirit of Belgium Homebrew Competition,
to be held in the Washington, D.C area on February 10th, 1995.
The style listing are the same as those used last year and are listed
at the end of this message. Of course, not all Belgian-style beers
fall into one of the nine categories, but additional information
such as "Orval clone", "Cherry Wit" may be specified on the
entry form. Each judging panel will be chaired by a National
or National BJCP judge and/or someone who is experienced at
judging and very knowledgeable about the styles.
For those interested in judging, there are some other activities
planned:
- Tim Artz will conduct a Belgian beer tasting the evening before
the competition. We are hoping to have the support of the Belgian
embassy, since the were disappointed to have missed last years
event. In any event, we will line up sponsors so that only a
nominal fee will be required to pay for the room rental.
- After the competition, there will be a banquet featuring Belgian
food and beer. Depending on the turnout, this could possibly
take place at the Belgique Gourmande, a local restaurant that
should be experienced, not described.
The judging will be done closed session, but entrants are encouraged
to attend the awards ceremony and/or the banquet. Entry forms and
judge registrations should be ready sometime next month. Contact me
with your name, phone number and e-mail address to have them mailed
to you.
The Competition Registrar is Rick Garvin, the Judge Coordinator is
Tom Cannon and as a penalty for willing last year's competition, I
will be the organizer.
Cheers, Scott Bickham
E-Mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Categories and Guidelines (thanks to Phil Seitz)
The Spirit of Belgium competition will accept entries in the categories listed
below. The contest coordinator reserves the right to combine categories in the
case of insufficient numbers of entries in any category. Beers will be judged
on the basis of overall quality and appropriateness to style as detailed below.
Commercial examples available in the U.S. are listed.
1) Belgian ale
Guidelines: 1.044-1.054, 4-6% ABV, 20-30 IBU, 3.5-12 SRM Pale to brown.
Bitterness, hop flavor and aroma should be noticeable, with noble or classic
types preferred. Low to medium esters. Low malt aroma, restrained caramel or
toasted malt flavor ok. Medium body. No diacetyl or alcohol flavors. Medium
carbonation. Description: An easily drinkable everyday beer. These are
generally beers of standard strength that combine subtle Belgian-tasting yeast
flavors with noticeable hop character that is frequently pilsner-like, leaving
a pleasant lingering bitterness in the aftertaste. Subtlety, finesse and
balance are the most important factors. Commercial examples: Rubens Blond,
Celis Pale Bock
2) Belgian strong ale
Guidelines: 1.062-1.120, 6-12% ABV, 16-30 IBU, 3.5-20 SRM Pale to dark brown.
Low hop bitterness and aroma ok, should blend with other flavors. Medium to
high esters in flavor and aroma. Phenols ok. Often highly aromatic. Spices or
orange ok. Strength evident, but alcohol flavor subdued or absent. Medium to
full body, sometimes with a high terminal gravity. Medium to high carbonation.
No roasted flavors or diacetyl. Description: Should be formulated to show off
yeast character, with all other ingredients playing a supporting role. The
flavor may be subtly complex, but should not be crowded. Body is comparatively
light for beers of this strength, due to use of brewing adjuncts or of pilsner
malt only. High carbonation also helps; these beers should feel like mousse on
the palate and have an impressive head. The best examples may be noticeably
strong but still have no alcohol flavor. Flemish examples tend toward higher
terminal gravities (1.025-1.050). Trappist strong ale and Saison clones should
be should be submitted in this category. Commercial examples: Corsendonk blond
(8% ABV), Corsendonk brown (8% ABV), Saison Dupont (6.5% ABV), Gouden Carolus
(7% ABV), Scaldis (12% ABV), Duvel (8.5% ABV), Brigand (9% ABV), Oerbier (7.5%
ABV), Arabier (8% ABV), Bos Keun (7% ABV), Stille Nacht (8% ABV), Pauwel Kwak
(8% ABV), Celis Grand Cru, Mateen (9% ABV)
3) Double
Guidelines: 1.060-1.070, 6-7.5% ABV, 18-25 IBU, 10-14 SRM Dark amber to brown.
Sweet malty aroma. Faint hop aroma ok. Medium to full body. Malty, plum-like
flavor. Very low bitterness, no hop flavor. Medium to high carbonation. Low to
medieum esters. No roasted flavors or diacetyl. Description: Doubles should be
malty and sweet with a noticeable plum character. Modest alcohol flavor is ok,
as are low levels of esters, but the malt flavors should predominate. Doubles
are usually lighter in body than their maltiness would suggest, with a fairly
moussy carbonation that produces a very nice head. Commercial examples:
Westmalle Dubbel (6.5% ABV), Affligem Double (7% ABV), Grimbergen Double (6.2%
ABV), Steenbrugge Double (6.5% ABV)
4) Triple
Guidelines: 1.080-1.095, 7-10% ABV, 18-25 IBU, 3.5-5.5 SRM Light or pale color.
Low ester, malt or hop aroma ok. Low hop bitterness or flavor ok. Malt
sweetness in flavor ok. Low esters ok. Medium to full body. High carbonation.
No diacetyl. Strength should be evident; alcohol flavor ok. Description: This
is a strong, very pale beer with a relatively neutral character. These beers
should have low esters (by Belgian standards), and comparatively light body and
flavor for their strength. Frequently they are slightly sweet. Alcoholic
strength should be evident, followed by a subtle mix of yeast products and hop
and malt flavors. Some commercial examples are well hopped, but most are not.
Some spicy (phenol) character is ok. High carbonation levels are the norm.
Commercial examples: Brugse Tripel (9.5% ABV), Affligem Tripel (9% ABV),
Grimbergen Tripel (8.13% ABV), Steenbrugge Tripel (9% ABV)
5) White beer
Guidelines: 1.044-1.055, 4.5-5.5% ABV, 15-22 IBU, 2-4 SRM Yellow/gold, cloudy
when chilled. Coriander flavor and mild acidity essential, but flavors must be
well blended. Wheat and bitter orange peel flavors desirable. Mild hop flavor
and aroma ok. Low to medium bitterness and esters. Low to medium body, medium
or higher carbonation. No diacetyl. Description: These beers should be average
in gravity with a hazy yellow color and a dense, dazzling white head. May or
may not have a slightly orangey aroma (due primarily to the coriander), or mild
hop aroma (preferably floral rather than spicy). Body should be medium or a bit
lighter, and the carbonation should be reasonably aggressive. Bitterness should
be low, mild acidity is essential, no alcohol flavor. Esters are ok, but
shouldn't predominate. Should be very drinkable. Commercial examples: Celis
White (4.7% ABV, 50% raw wheat, 50% malted barley), Riva Blanche (5% ABV, sold
as Dentergems in Belgium), Blanche de Bruges, Blanche des Neiges
6) Oud Bruin
Guidelines: 1.045-1.060, 4.8-6% ABV, 15-25 IBU, 10-20 SRM Red, deep copper or
deep brown with red tints. Acidic aroma with some fruitiness. Flavor sweet,
sour and fruity, esp. cherry-like with some caramel malt character. Lactic,
acetic and oak flavors ok. Attenuation low to medium. Medium carbonation, body
medium to full. Low bitterness, no hop flavor or aroma. No diacetyl.
Description: Richly colored with a fruity, acidic aroma and an intensely
fruity, sweet and sour palate. Sourness varies in commercial examples, many of
which are filtered and sweetened. Color and body should come mostly from
caramel malts. Commercial examples:Liefmans Goudenband (5.1% ABV), Rodenbach
Grand Cru (6.5% ABV)
7) Oud bruin (with fruit)
As above in category 6, with addition of raspberries, cherries or other fruit.
Fruit character should be clearly defined and prominent but blend well with
other flavors. Fruit may provide additional acidity. Commercial examples:
Liefmans Framboise (5.7% ABV), Liefmans Kriek
8) pLambic and pGueuze
Guidelines: 1.044-1.056, 5-6% ABV, 12-16 IBU, 6-15 SRM Clean sourness. No hop
bitterness, flavor or aroma. Very low carbonation for lambics, high carbonation
for gueuze. Light body and high attenuation. Brettanomyces and lactic character
predominate in aroma and flavor. Mild enteric and acetic flavors ok. Cloudiness
ok. Pale, dry. No diacetyl, alcohol or rancid flavors. Description: Lambic is
unblended and has gone flat due to ageing (up to 3 years). Gueuze is a blend of
old and young lambic, and is carbonated. Gueuze is similar to champagne in body
and head: very high carbonation contriburtes to light body, as does wheat
content. May or may not have ahead. Color varies from straw to fruit-colored.
Often dry and quite sour with prominent brettanomyces character in both palate
and aroma, including aromas like horse blanket, straw, sweat, barn, and
enteric. Some sourness usually detectable in aroma. Should taste bright, not
spoiled or rotten. Commercial examples: Cantillon gueuze (5% ABV), Boon gueuze.
Filtered, sweetened versions include Lindeman's gueuze and Gueuze St. Louis.
9) pLambic (with fruit)
Guidelines: 1.040-1.072, 5-7% ABV, 15-21 IBU, no color specs As above, usually
carbonated. Should have noticeable color from fruit adjunct. May or may not
have fruit aroma. Intensity of fruit flavor varies, but a lingering, pleasant
fruitiness is an asset. Brett and sourness should still be very noticeable.
Often very dry. No alcohol flavor. Commercial examples: Cantillon kriek,
Cantillon Ros de Gambrinus, Boon kriek, Boon Marriage Parfait, Boon 1986
framboise (6.2% ABV). Filtered, sweetened versions include Lindemans'
Framboise, Kriek and Peche.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 14:13:51 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Enteric?
> 8) pLambic and pGueuze
>
> Mild enteric ... flavors ok.....
> No ... rancid flavors....
What other flavors are enteric? Or am I misunderstanding what's considered
rancid? The flavor I most closely associate to "enteric" is the horrible
stench of rotting carnations or an impacted molar.
That flavor, even in very small quatities, is not "ok" with me, but I guess
it's distinct from what I usually call "rancid".
Is there another "enteric" flavor I'm overlooking?
Thanks,
-R
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 7:45:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Barrel Sruvey and enterics
Russell asks:
> Subject: Enteric?
>
>
> > 8) pLambic and pGueuze
> >
> > Mild enteric ... flavors ok.....
>
> > No ... rancid flavors....
>
> What other flavors are enteric? Or am I misunderstanding what's considered
> rancid? The flavor I most closely associate to "enteric" is the horrible
> stench of rotting carnations or an impacted molar.
>
> That flavor, even in very small quatities, is not "ok" with me, but I guess
> it's distinct from what I usually call "rancid".
>
> Is there another "enteric" flavor I'm overlooking?
In real lambic enterics reach levels of 10e8 in the first few weeks. There
seem to be two type those that synthesized 2,3 butanediol and those that make
acetic acid. They also produce chemiclas that give the vegetal smells and
various sulfur compounds. Also the "stench" aromas. Over the course of a long
fermentation amny of the aromas are scrubbed out by co2.
These various bacterial byproducts add complexity to the overall product.
Some of the various funkiness (for lack of a better term) in real lambic is due
to these enteric byproducts. These byproducts combine in the overall rainbow
of flavors produced by the other yeasts and bacteria and add complexity.
So be adventurous and add some enteric bacteria after you cool the wort.
I am collecting data concerning the use of barrels.
Do you have an American or European oak?
Is it new or used?
Was the first batche(s) oaky in flavor?
What treatment did you perform on it prior to use?
Private e-mail your responses please
Jim
jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:55:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: enteric
Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com> asks:
>
> > 8) pLambic and pGueuze
> >
> > Mild enteric ... flavors ok.....
>
> > No ... rancid flavors....
>
> What other flavors are enteric? Or am I misunderstanding what's considered
> rancid? The flavor I most closely associate to "enteric" is the horrible
> stench of rotting carnations or an impacted molar.
>
> That flavor, even in very small quatities, is not "ok" with me, but I guess
> it's distinct from what I usually call "rancid".
>
> Is there another "enteric" flavor I'm overlooking?
Maybe the resident microbiology experts can help me out here, but I
think this is normally what I call "barnyard". But then again,
I normally associate brettanomyces with silage, so I guess I
did learn something growing up in a small town in the midwest ;-)
Scott
- --
====================================================================
E-Mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil FAX:(202) 404-7546
Office: Naval Research Laboratories Home and BJCP:
Code 6691, Complex Systems 7507 Swan Point Way
Washington, D.C 20375 Columbia, MD 21045
(202) 404-8632 (410) 290-7721
====================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 08:02:35 -0500
From: "Rodney L. Boleyn" <boleyn at scr.siemens.com>
Subject: how looks my wort
Hi folx. Question re: the appearance of my first pLambic attempt,
which has peaches in it.
I started this batch in June (?-I think), and for about the last month
it's been starting to develop what must be a pellicle--white filmy
layer growing in from the sides, and trapping bubbles underneath it.
Until it started the pellicle, it was very cloudy. However, there is
now a clear layer almost 2 inches thick on top of the cloudy wort,
almost as clear as water. Is this normal settling, or ???
-Rodney
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:28:04 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: enterics
You say "barnyard" and I say "fresh country air" or just "oh shit".
I'd prefer that stuff not in my beer, but would much rather that than
the rotting carnation/ abcessed tooth odor. If you know these smells,
you know what I mean. They are absolutely naseuating to me, maybe I
am more sensitive than most.
All that being said, I tasted my fist lambic this past weekend. Quite very
yummy. Only just now beginning to sour, the brett is subtle but noticable.
The color of the beer is a beatiful, um, straw color, maybe a shade darker.
I resisted the urge to take another sample, but I think it's gonna be good.
No enteric flavors, but that's "okay".
A couple of weeks ago, I smelled an experimental batch I started last
February. This was a wild innoculation in pursuit of the elusive
Brettanomyces Illinoisus. This stuff was gaggingly enteric smelling in June,
but smelled pretty okay in October. I'll probably expand it to a full gallon
(it's a half G now) this weekend and taste it again soon. I suspect it will
pale in comparison to pure cultures or even bottle-cultured lambics, but
it's fun to try. Anyway, as Jim pointed out, the CO2 really scrubs a lot of
the funny stuff out after a long enough ferment.
Anyway, thanks for the clarification. My idea of "enteric" was too limited.
-R
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 8:56:39 PST
From: "Mark E. Thompson" <markt at hptal04.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Orval help
I am interested in corresponding with anyone that can give
me help cloneing the orval flavor. I know that there has
be significant discussion on the bottleing yeast vs the
primary fermentation yeast. I started some yeast that
i got from my club and never even made a test batch because
even though it was a strong fermenter there was very little
orval taste in it. i'm sure that i'm going to have to find
some brett, but which one? Grain bill/sugar content i am
willing to play with, but the yeast leaves me somewhat at
a loss.
Mark
------------------------------
