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Lambic Digest #0578
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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #578 (April 06, 1995)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 00:30:18 -0600
Lambic Digest #578 Thu 06 April 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Lambic Digest #577 5/5/95 - Anarchic p-lambic (rdh1)
The Anarchist's p-Lambic (Todd Gierman)
De Troch (brewing chemist Mitch)
Re: Anarchist's p-Lambic (Todd Gierman)
De Troch Number (Aaron Shaw)
Wyeast Brett and Anarchy (Jim Liddil)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 9:48:29 EDT
From: rdh1 at ctt.bellcore.com
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #577 5/5/95 - Anarchic p-lambic
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:25:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: The Anarchist's p-Lambic
The header alludes to an "underground" publication that has been in
circulation for many years. Perhaps you, like I, have seen it in
passing. In any event, it is definitely oriented to the extreme
Do-it-yerselfer and those desiring complete self-sufficiency/autonomy.
Many of the procedures entail the cobbling together of reagents from
unlikely sources to achieve more conventional (or unconventional)
results: like obtaining opiate substitutes from baked bananas.
With all the questioning of commercial sources of p-lambic cultures going
on, it seems the The Anarchist's p-Lambic is an idea whose time has come
(pardon my immodesty). If you feel that buying cultures from
commercial vendors is a crap shoot, try this approach (at least you'll
have only yourselves to blame; don't blame me I haven't tried this, I am
only advocating it).
Here's the idea. You really only need three things to accomplish a
passable p-lambic: Sacchromyces cerevisiae for the main ferment, a
souring bug for lactic acid production, and Brettanomyces for secondary
fermentation (superattenuation and production of funk). How do you get
these on your own? Simple. You need two non-lambic Belgian beers that
appear to be widely available: Dentergem's Wit and Orval.
Dentergem's seems to come with a nice souring bug (L. delbrueckii) - just
ask Scott Bickham who has used it quite successfully. I know from
tasting one of Scott's wits that this bug is capable of some intense
souring. The Dentergem's yeast will work fine as the primary fermenter.
Use the dregs to make a starter. Making the starter well in advance of
brewing day will likely improve the souring ability, as it appears that
the levels of the bug vary from bottle to bottle. However, with time
they seem to increase in number. Be a big culture pitcher on this one.
Now for the Brett culture. The dregs of Orval generally contain several
strains of yeast. One appears to be an ale yeast used for primary
fermentation. There may also be some slight contamination with a yeast
that is probably a brewery contaminant (but don't worry about it).
Finally, the dregs appear to contain a really nice Brett culture consisting
of several strains of Br. bruxellensis. Again, grow this culture well in
advance of pitching. Grow a large starter (1 qt) and let it sit for a
month or two. You should then be able to detect the Brett by its odor
(vinous, cidery and acetic).
Make the wort in a fashion similar to that of a Belgian wit (leaving out
the oats, coriander and orange peel), or like a lambid - I am talking
30-45% on the unmalted wheat. Use conventional hops, but shoot for
<18 IBU (you may not need hops, but hey it's hard to completely break
with tradition). The low IBUs allow you to get around aging and/or
baking. Forget the turbid mash, you don't want to spend months waiting
for the Brett to break down starches and converting polyphenols.
However, shoot for a more dextrinous wort than you would with a wit and
maybe a slightly higher SG (1050?).
Pitch the dentergems and allow for a relatively warm fermentation
(low-mid 70's), as this may help the lacto do its work. Once the gravity
gets down to the mid 1020s, pitch the Orval culture (which should by now
have a very distinct odor that is atypical of S. cerevisiae). Conduct
the secondary fermentation as an open fermentation (or semi-open) in a
food grade plastic bucket.
My bet is that the beer will be sufficiently sour within 3 months (but
we'd have to ask Scott to be sure). I think that the Brett will form a
pellicle sooner with a good wort/air interface. This may also improve
acetic acid production and aroma qualities.
There you have it: a p-lambic fit for Rube Goldberg! It may seem like a
real crap shoot, but at least you've gotten to drink about $10-worth of
really good beer - something you don't get with commercial cultures. Moreover,
you will probably end up with a p-lambic that may be no worse than what many
homebrewers produce using commercial cultures.
Todd
- ------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:05:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: gellym at aviion.persoft.com (brewing chemist Mitch)
Subject: De Troch
We too started receiving the De Troch plum lambic recently. Never wanting to
pass up something new I grabbed a couple of bottles. By itself it is quite a
nice beer with a great fruitiness to it, but like Lindemanns and Timmermanns
it does fall short of the lambic mark.
It does have a slight tartness to it, but cannot be called sour. The fruit
component lends a certain complexity to it, but it is unfortunately also
missing that funky 'bretty-ness' I enjoy so much.
These are the people that do other wild things such as strawberry and banana
lambic, no ? Although heretical, I would like to try them out.
A fun beer, and I enjoyed it much. For a good lambic though, I will have to
stick to the Boon.
plambic question: Have any of you Midwestern plambic types ever used Door
County (upper WI) cherries ? Good results ? From my 10-month old batch of
plambic I plan on racking about six gallons onto these cherries when they
come into season. By then that batch will be over a year old, and should be
ready for fruit by then.
Cheers,
Mitch
- --
-- Mitch Gelly -- owner/brewmaster of the ManOwaR nano-Brewery
software QA specialist, unix systems administrator, Usenet admin,
zymurgist, BJCP beer judge, president of the Madison Homebrewers
-- gellym at aviion.persoft.com -- QC is OUT, QA is IN ! Deal with it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:56:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Re: Anarchist's p-Lambic
I realized too late that I was extremely vague in my allusion in
yesterday's post. Having received a question from a European
subscriber, I was also reminded that this forum is international.
I should elaborate briefly. I was referring to the _Anarchist's
Cookbook_, a very non-mainstream publication, first published nearly 20
years ago (I think). I believe that it is from a small publishing house
whose wares are often advertised in the back of para-military-type
magazines. I saw the _Anarchist's Cookbook_ once in college. I am not
an anarchist, nor do I advocate anarchy - though I do enjoy a little
chaos now and then :-)
Essentially, I was alluding to the _Anarchist's Cookbook_ with a sense
of irony. However, I do believe that the scheme for brewing a p-lambic
is plausible and would be interested in trying it myself when I have
time. Right now I am still enmeshed in the long-term fermentation,
aging, and blending process (I have 5 gallons that I will age for at least
1.5 years).
Realizing that such things require not only commitments of time and
space (which are in my case extremely finite), but also the ability to
acquire the proper cultures, I wanted to offer up an alternative to some
of the methods that get tossed around in this forum. Afterall, I seem
to recall some desire to speed up the process.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:22:04 -0400
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: De Troch Number
>From: "DEV::FVH" <FVH%DEV.decnet at mdcgwy.mdc.com>
>Subject: Number for De Troch
>Can anyone provide the number for the De Troch Brewery? I had the fortunate
De Troch Brewery
Langestraat 20, 1741 Wambeek
Belgium
02/ 582 10 27
- --
"Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
Aaron Shaw
Ottawa, Canada
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:25:06 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Wyeast Brett and Anarchy
%
% Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:25:20 -0400 (EDT)
% From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
% Subject: The Anarchist's p-Lambic
Well the only thing I can say is bag the mashing step and use extract :-)
And on a lighter note as if you thought I had crawled under a rock forever and
some of you wish I would, I give you this.
The following are my opinions and my opinions alone.I have done a good deal of
culture work on ONE package of Wyeast 3278 dated1-25-95. The data I have in no
way represents a statistically significantsample or represents Wyeast products
overall.I have talked to Dave Logsdon at Wyeast about the 3278. He told me
that when they leave the factory they contain 90% saccharomyces cerevesiae and
the other 10% is a blend of brett bruxellensis and brett lambicus. Wyeast does
this as they feel it is the right blend to produce the best flavor.Now my
testing on ONE package involved various selective medias and
complete assimilation testing using single carbon sources. Yeast, in order to
grow need a complete nitrogen and carbon source. Each strain of yeast has
a different assimilation pattern with regards to what sugars (carbon source)they
will grow on. So I isolated the saccharomyces and a "wild" yeast.
The saccharomyces has an odd pattern of assimilation which I have traced
to European origin. Even a recent Belgian high temp fermenter I recieved
does not have a similar aassimilation pattern.The wild yeast is indeed brett
bruxellensis, but only 1 in 10e4 cells is abrett not 10%. But this was in a
package at two months of age. I have been unsuccessful at isolating any brett
lambicus from the yeast slurry. If anyoneis interested in seeing complete
assimilation data and the system I used contact me privately.Wyeast I am told is
currently looking at reformulating the yeast mix to provide better viability.
The package labeling will not change due to the cost of having new printing
screens made.
Jim
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End of Lambic Digest
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