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Lambic Digest #0686
Lambic Digest #686 Tue 05 September 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
loose ends (Dan McConnell)
loose ends (Dan McConnell)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 09:34:22 -0500
From: danmcc at umich.edu (Dan McConnell)
Subject: loose ends
>From Jeffrey Ziehler:
>ok, so when you did this Kombeerka (sorry, it was screaming at me).
It screamed at me too, but I tried to ignore it.....
>Did
>you use the 1/3 volume old tea as the starter as per the usual kombuka
>propagation directions?
I used about 1/4, but for the same reason, to keep the pH low.
>
>Also in the beer wort batch, did the culture produce a new daughter
>'shroom? From what I've read on the subject, the yeasts and bacteria
>will grow fine under a lot of conditions, but it's the symbiosis that is
>fragile. It's the symbiosis that produces the misnamed mushroom.
>
It looks like a normal daughter (maybe darker than normal due to the amber
malt extract). I have not continued to propogate the wort grown daughters
so they have only gone one generation in wort. Everything appears normal.
The beer of course has trub on the bottom unlike the tea, so it is much
uglier. I have not made a habit of drinking the stuff, just tasting, but I
think it is ok. A side by side fermentation of tea-based and malt-based
ferments reveals a MUCH more complete fermantation with the malt in the
same period of time. I suspect that this is because of the nutrients in
the malt.
BTW, I am not advocating the use or the fermentation of beer with Kombucha.
I'm just reporting on what I feel is an interesting symbiotic culture of
yeasts and acid producing bacteria. This is, after all, the nature of
Lambic.
An interesting side note. Early on I plated this culture out. Cone shaped
colonies were produced that were hard and could be pushed around the
surface of the plate intact. (Imagine pushing chocolate chips across the
table top with a pencil and you've got the idea).
DanMcC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 10:19:37 -0500
From: danmcc at umich.edu (Dan McConnell)
Subject: loose ends
>From Jeffrey Ziehler:
>ok, so when you did this Kombeerka (sorry, it was screaming at me).
It screamed at me too, but I tried to ignore it.....
>Did
>you use the 1/3 volume old tea as the starter as per the usual kombuka
>propagation directions?
I used about 1/4, but for the same reason, to keep the pH low.
>
>Also in the beer wort batch, did the culture produce a new daughter
>'shroom? From what I've read on the subject, the yeasts and bacteria
>will grow fine under a lot of conditions, but it's the symbiosis that is
>fragile. It's the symbiosis that produces the misnamed mushroom.
>
It looks like a normal daughter (maybe darker than normal due to the amber
malt extract). I have not continued to propogate the wort grown daughters
so they have only gone one generation in wort. Everything appears normal.
The beer of course has trub on the bottom unlike the tea, so it is much
uglier. I have not made a habit of drinking the stuff, just tasting, but I
think it is ok. A side by side fermentation of tea-based and malt-based
ferments reveals a MUCH more complete fermantation with the malt in the
same period of time. I suspect that this is because of the nutrients in
the malt.
BTW, I am not advocating the use or the fermentation of beer with Kombucha.
I'm just reporting on what I feel is an interesting symbiotic culture of
yeasts and acid producing bacteria. This is, after all, the nature of
Lambic.
An interesting side note. Early on I plated this culture out. Cone shaped
colonies were produced that were hard and could be pushed around the
surface of the plate intact. (Imagine pushing chocolate chips across the
table top with a pencil and you've got the idea).
DanMcC
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 1995 07:52:54 -0400
From: "Rodney L. Boleyn" <boleyn at scr.siemens.com>
Subject: Re: culturing cantillon
>Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 8:30:39 -0700 (MST)
>From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
>Subject: Culturing-various
>
>% Mold is not a usual participant in my "regular" yeast starters.
>% Where is this mold coming from? Can it be in the bottle already,
>% or did I just get unlucky with this starter, and got some mold
>% spores in it?
>
>Molds come form the air silly. :-) Luck has nothing to do with it.
>Skill is the key and careful technique.
Actually, I was looking through Guinard's "Lambic", and back in the
section on lambic brewers, there is a note re: Cantillon Gueuze that
bottles with a "moldy odor on the cork" are defective. I would say
mine fall in this category, so maybe the mold *was* in the bottle. I
think in my next attempt, I will get a small tube, and siphon the
dregs off the bottom of the bottle *before* I pour anything through
the neck of the bottle.
>Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 10:00:33 -0500 (CDT)
>From: isenhour at alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (John Isenhour)
>Subject: lambic starters
>
>Jim comments:
>
>> %The cantillion starters I've had in 0.5 L flasks developed a
>> %largish flat yellow/orange growth about the size of a slug that
>> %floated just below the surface of the liquid starter.
>>
>> I don't know but I still don't think pigmented forms are "normal"
>> lambic organisms.
>
>I've never seen this outside of Cantillion dregs. I'd like to know
>what it is, it didnt seem to affect the flavor in any way I could
>tell.
This pretty well fits the description of what I saw in my starter.
Definitely orangish in color (but not a real bright orange), large,
and floating just at/below the surface.
-Rodney
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 95 10:00:55 PDT
From: cr at humphrey.com (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Corny Costs, Customs
From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
>> Another splash into the corny, a rather large bar tab to settle, and
>> Dave was the proud owner of 5 gallons of straight lambic. After the usual
>> hassles with airline agents and customs officials, the precious cargo
>> settled happily into San Francisco.
>Just out of curiosity, how much do 5 gallons of lambic cost? I suppose
>that 5 gallons + corny keg can get on the plane without exceeding the
>weight limits imposed on luggage, but were there any extra handling fees,
>like an extra bag fee? Or was this taken as "carry-on" luggage?
As I recall, Dave was unable to get any kind of break on the price, and
was charged the same price as if he'd purchased it one glass at a time.
This worked out to about BF2000, or~$80.
The baggage was checked without much ado, but Dave was pulled off to the
"little room" for a customs check. The corny was padded by some old grimy
sweaty socks, which apparently deterred the customs agent from digging
any deeper. The agent looked inside, wrinkled his nose, and sent Dave on
his way. A good trick to remember!
CR
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 15:51:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Killing and Starters
% I've never seen this outside of Cantillion dregs. I'd like to know what
% it is, it didnt seem to affect the flavor in any way I could tell.
Seek out a micorbilogist. :-)
%
% > But remember starter size is not of major importance in making lambic with the
% > right flavor.
%
% This is true, but with slower growing organisms (or most ones used for
% fermentation) isnt it better to start with a larger quantity of healthy
% ones?
Not necessarily. Real lambic brewers do not use "big" starters. In my opinion
it is important to make sure that the various organisms are alive and grow in
the wort to produce the metabolic by products necessary for the flavor of
lambic. In real lambic the pedio generally reaches fairly high levels and
produces a lot of lactic acid before the brett starts to reach any appreciable
numbers. I used a big starter to make "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing" and had
a reasonable beer in 3 months but it still alcked the overall complexity that,
in my opinion, only comes from slow metabolic processes and time. Research
shows that the lambic in real breweries reaches the acid and other levels in
about a year and the rest of the time allows for "flavor maturation".
And if your logic is correct then the W3278 is way off mark since it contains a
little brett with a bunch of saccharomyces.
% Sorry, why I did this was because the brewery has an open trough that runs
% the length of the place then into a drain hole. Dumping the dregs amounts
% to pouring this stuff on a large portion of the brewery floor - it was a
% little intimidating for the head brewer. I felt lucky the guy even let
% me in the brewery with the starter! The amount of quat added was the
% suggested amount on the product container for an estimated 1.5 bbls of
% liquid. I did not test for viable organisms. I said a "bunch" because
% it was a larger quantity than I normally mix up for sanitizing equipment.
% I actually prefer 70% ETOH when working in a laminar flow brewery:)
I bring these issues up because simply adding a given amount of disinfectant or
sanitizer (they aren't the same) to a solution of organisms does not mean they
will all be dead due to various factors. Of course if the brewer starts
having infection problems he has a good scapegoat. :-)
EtOH is not all that great a sanitizer unless the surface is very clean to
start with. I work in a room with heating coils and turn the temp to 450 F
when I am done working. :-)
%
% A slightly dated but very useful book on sanitation in breweries (and
% about anywhere else) is _Disinfection, Sterilization and Preservation_.
Got it. There is a newer version the 4 ed. The reason there is not alot new
in this field is because alot of the research is being done by companies and is
proprietary. I found this to be true when I was researching iodophors.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 1995 12:20:00 +1000
From: "Craig Jones. 5099" <Drake_Morgan at caa.gov.au>
Subject: Experienced Brewer Interested about Lambic's.
Help! I'm interested in Lambic Beers (from the article in Charlie Papazian's
New Joy of Home Brewing) and how to make them. Some questions:
1. Where can I buy Commercially made Lambic Beer? (for comparison to any
home brew lambic I might
make)
2. Where can I find some BASIC recipes?
3. Where can I find the yeasts and cultures required.
How for the hitch......I live in Canberra, Australia. We have good liquor
stores and excellent homebrew supply stores but nobody can help me on Lambic
beers or yeasts. I doubt Australian Customs would allow me to import Lambic
Yeasts, so I would have to find an Australian supplier. I am also looking for
lambic recipes that can be documented back in the middle ages. Can anyone help?
Craig Jones.
Drake.Morgan at Caa.Gov.Au
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 95 21:29 MDT
From: rjbourc at nmia.com (Roy Bourcier)
Subject: My first pLambic acquits itself admirably - THANKS!
I've been lurking the LD for about a year(!), but I finally had to post to
thank you all - and ask a quick question. I just got back the results of my
first competition entry (New Mexico State Fair ProAm), and my very first
pLambic framboise (brewed 11/20/94) scored a 34 - good enough for a Silver
medal (got beat out in the Belgian category by ANOTHER pLambic!). This brew
is still very young - I just hope I have the self control to have some left
to enter in upcoming competitions! The only reason I had the nerve to brew
a pLambic in the first place was from reading the LD. And the main reason
this particular batch turned out good enough to get entered in the first
place was the advice I gleaned from this forum. Thanks! I'm presently
getting psyched to start my next pLambic (must wait a few more weeks to
order bugs - it's still pretty hot here!). Nevertheless, it's never too
early to plan - is there a definitive position on the correct pitching
schedule for the various bugs (Saccharomyces, Brettanomyces, Kloeckera,
Pediococcus)? First time out I pitched the Sacch on day 1, a Brett and
Kloeck a week later, a Brett and Pedio four days later, and bottled with a
Brett five months later (I know, I rushed it - I couldn't wait!). Thanks
again and TIA.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy J. Bourcier rjbourc at nmia.com
"Once a guy stood all day shaking bugs from his hair."
A Scanner Darkly, by Philip K. Dick
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 95 11:01:12 -0500
From: "Andrew R. Ruggles" <rugg0002 at gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Beersel
The next leg of my journey around Belgium lead me to Beersel. Well, actually it
wasn't easy to get to. I got lost around the Southwest part of Brussels. I
thought I was going the right way on the street. It didn't really hit me when I
saw a Testarosa driving by. Then when the convertable 911 was at the light next
to me, I started to wonder how much professionals make in Belgium. Another turn
into a residential neighborhood and things started to become clearer. There were
*huge* houses with plush manicured lawns and impressive gates. Even a Yank could
tell we hit the money in Belgium. Nice area, but no bars. Off to Beersel.
I threw away the worthless map I had and decided to follow my beer nose. I turn
up a hill, a sight at a plaza by a church and bam! I was at De Drie Fonteinen!
It felt good after a day of travel to sit down to a beer and a meal. The first
beer I had was the kriek from tap.
Kriek from tap (a blend of Girardin and Lindeman's Lambic -- D'Arcy)
Still. No carbonation at all. Very good strong cherry fruit flavor. A little
horse and acid in the nose. The flavor was sour -- too sour for my traveling
companion. The finish was dry and clean with just a hint of the fruit lingering
- -- went very well with the food I had. 100BF (~US$3.50)
Kriek from the bottle
Very spritzy. Served with sugar and a crusher (the only time I was in Belgium!)
Even after two sugar cubes this was still *very* sour. The cherry flavor in this
was more intense than in the tap version. Big pink head! 100BF (US$3.50)
Gueuze from bottle
Very carbonated. Intensely sour, but no sugar served wtih this one. Big Brett
nose and flavor. Nice straw color and very dry finish. 100BF
I stayed at the little hotel nearby. This one had the bathtub and sink in the
room, and the WC was down the hall (~1800BF =~US$63 -- including breakfast). It
was a quaint, but not really very nice. The old lady running the place I a fit
when I leaned next to her to see where we were suppose to park. It seems she
felt I was trying to throw her down the stairs! When we went down to order a
Boon Kriek, she had told her husband what I had done and he replied that it
would have been a *very* expensive night for us.
I don't have any notes on the Boon Kriek, but I remember it being more sour than
a bottled version I recently had in the States. I believe it was on tap there.
We headed out to find the 3 Springs, but went to a smaller place a block away.
Kriek from tap
I don't know what "brand" this was or if it was a blend (Hell, I don't even
remember the name of the cafe!) It was fruity and well balanced. Not too sour
and not too sweet. Small head faded quickly. Very nice and smooth -- sort of the
dessert version of Kriek without all the sugar. 33cl 36BF (~US$1.26) -- There
are some bars in rural Wisconsin where you can't even get an Old Style (in a
can) for that cheap.
The next day we went to the Oud Beersel Brewery Museum (which is really outside
of Beersel from what I could tell) The museum was closed, but the bar was open.
Geuze
Spritzy and *very* sour -- lactic. It reminded me a lot of my own pLambic which
weighed in heavy on the lactic acid side especially compared to Cantillon's
acetic acid side. The soft Brett character was overpowered by the lactic
quality. A small pelicle was floating and gathering at the bottom of the glass.
Dry finish with a slightly sweet aftertaste. It doesn't taste very well with
toothpaste. 65BF (~US$2.30)
Lambik
Still. Not nearly as sour as the Geuze. Very well balanced. Soft. Smells like a
soft cheese. Good body and a clean finish. Straw color. A few locals were
drinking this, the rest were drinking Palm Ale. 35BF (~US$1.23)
Cheers,
Andrew
"You will survive this adventure and continue to brew." - RJR
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 95 15:56:51 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Wyeast Brett
Jim writes:
>And if your logic is correct then the W3278 is way off mark since it contains a
>little brett with a bunch of saccharomyces.
This may be true, from a microbiologist's point-of-view, but not consistent
with my experience. If there is Saccharomyces in there, it is not very
normal. I made a starter from a package of the Wyeast Brett and it started
very slowly and fermented slowly for several weeks. I then pitched that into
5 gallons of wort and again it fermented very slowly. If it is a mixed
strain (incidentally, Jim's post is the first I've heard of this) then
the non-Brett strain *appears* outwardly a lot more like Brettanomyces than
Saccharomyces.
Why do you say there is Saccharomyces in there? Did you plate some out and
some colonies did not grow on cyclohexamide?
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 14:47:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Wyeast's Letter
I bet I won't be the only one to post this:
**************************************
From: jfrane at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Open Letter from Wyeast
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 1995 16:33:23 GMT
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
The following letter is being sent to the retailers who handle
Wyeast's yeast strains.
Sept. 5, 1995
Dear Valued Customer,
re: 3278 Yeast
Please provide this notice to all customers of: Brewers Choice #3278B
Yeast.
This name change reflects the fact that this yeast culture is a blend
of yeasts and not 100% of one particular strain. The product has not
changed; as many of you may know, certain Belgian beer styles require
more than one yeast to make a good beer. For several years we have
produced this blend, because using 100% of one yeast would make an
unapalatable beer. This item will remain available with a modified
label as indicated.
We are sorry if this has caused any inconvenience. Please call or
write to us if you have any questions or comments.
Sincerely,
Dave Logsdon
*************************************
Well he fails to mention that the two yeast are saccahromyces with some brett.
The statement about one yeast producing unpalatable beer is a way for him to
cover up the fact that he has been decieving the homebrew community for over a
year. Science has prevailed. Of course in how many other ways is Wyeast
decieving the brewers that buy their stuff. Also the fact that it took almsot
8 months for Wyeast to coem clean also makes me go hmmmm. :-)
Remember kids, JUST SAY NO TO WYEAST!
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 18:02:52 +0500
From: bohack at harpo.wh.att.com (Edward E Harstead)
Subject: Brussels/Payottenland bike tour report
I will be heading over to Belgium for a one-week beer-bike tour,
armed with some very good advice from readers of this digest. But
before I go, here is an abridged report of a one-day bike tour of
the Payottenland I emailed to friends last July 1994. (Some of the
facts will be quite familiar to readers of this digest.)
. . . . . . . . . . .
All the major lambic shrines are close to Brussels, so I decided to
make the tour by bike. The first stop was in Brussels itself, the
Cantillon brewery/museum. With few visitors on a hot summer
Saturday, I received individual attention from the Van Roy's
son-in-law, who, at last report (Nov. 1994) may be able to quit
his day-job and come work for the brewery, a result of an
anticipated distribution contract with a large grocery store chain.
Just like I read in MJ's book: there is a large shallow open vat in
the attic for the boiled wort to cool in during the night. The
roof is ventilated so that wild yeasts can have their way with it.
There are huge furchy dust blobs under the vat-- nothing is
disturbed for fear of upsetting the resident yeasts. In the
storage rooms are large ancient wooden casks filled with ageing
lambic, draped with spiders webs, the ones with kriek oozing a red
goo.
At the end of my tour I was offered a glass of gueuze. I asked if
they ever drank the straight, unblended lambic. My host went and
got Mr. van Roy, who took me upstairs, loosened the cork on a cask
of nearly two-year old lambic, and filled my glass with a flat,
brown liquid. It was quite sour.
Among the lambic-iana hanging on the walls was a letter from George
Schultz, U.S. Secretary of State, eloquently praising the
Cantillons for their hospitality and excellent beer. George
Schultz.
I chatted with Mrs. van Roy as well. Since I am American, she had
something interesting to show me. The label on the bottle of the
Rose de Gambrinus has a painting of a naked, big-chested woman
holding a glass of beer, obviously enjoying herself in the lap of a
black, hairy, man-like creature, who is giving her a feel.
Cantillon exports this beer to the U.S. They were compelled to
change the label. On the American label the woman is wearing a
dress. How can Europeans take us seriously?
My cycling trip then took me out of Brussels along the
industrialized and refreshingly unquaint Canal de Charleroi. At
the village of Halle I drank a bottle of the city's Vander Linden
gueuze at the Cafe In de Fazant, then at the Cafe de Sleutal it was
gueuze and kriek from the De Koninck lambic blender (of the nearby
town of Dworp). The De Koninck kriek billowed cherry, and had an
acid finish. It was a fabulous, intense drink. The warm and
motherly waitress gave me a De Koninck glass as a souvenir. [Since
then I have read in Tim Webb's 2nd edition of the CAMRA guide that
the blending of De Koninck was taken over by Girardin in 1990 and was
last made in 1992. It may now be extinct; I'll look out for it.]
Then I downshifted to my lowest gears to ascend hills, and with a
good bit of beer in me. Via Dworp, I made for another lambic holy
place: the town of Beersel. I met my wife and baby at the
lambic brew-pub/restaurant 3 Fonteinen. Both the gueuze and kriek
were intensely acid, start to finish. For the faint-hearted, sugar
cubes are served with the beer. I rejected them and slogged my way
through.
The final stop was the Cafe In 'T Bierhuis Oud Beersel, which
serves beer from the tiny one-man lambic producer next door. They
served a straight draft lambic. It was a murky, flat, and bitter
liquid.
........
Ed Harstead
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 10:26:17 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Why Yeast?
What _IS_ the new name of Wyeast #3278B ? Is it just called 3278B ?
Jim Liddil says :
> Remember kids, JUST SAY NO TO WYEAST!
When I start having bad results with Wyeast, I'll stop using it. I haven't
tried their "Brett" yeast yet, and very likely won't anytime soon. I've had
excellent results with other yeasts of theirs, however, and see no reason to
feel they've been decieving me about those.
If there was another brand with similar ease of use, availability, and in the
same general price range, I would consider switching as a political statement,
because I think they HAVE been awful cagey about their Brett yeast and I'm
still appalled by their decision to sick a lawyer on someone instead of trying
to defend themselves more civilly.
Until such another brand arises, I need yeast to make beer with, and that takes
a priority over some other concerns.
-R
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 95 09:30:45 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Wyeast... I see.../more from Payottenland
I wrote:
>with my experience. If there is Saccharomyces in there, it is not very
>normal. I made a starter from a package of the Wyeast Brett and it started
>very slowly and fermented slowly for several weeks. I then pitched that into
>5 gallons of wort and again it fermented very slowly.
Jim writes (quoting Dave):
This name change reflects the fact that this yeast culture is a blend
of yeasts and not 100% of one particular strain. The product has not
changed;
The experiment I was writing about above was done probably more than one
year ago with some Wyeast Brett that was over a year old (I try to take
Wyeast off my store's shelves when it is 4 months old but then sometimes
it sits for a year before I get around to using it... yes, this is not
the best practice... I have been just tossing year-old Wyeast in the
garbage lately). Obviously, I was using a package that was made before
Wyeast began blending the 3278. Had I gotten a quick ferment, I would
have been on the phone with Dave Logsdon immediately.
I don't think that Wyeast products are perfect, but I don't think they
are as bad as Jim seems to think they are. Perhaps I'm a little biased
because I sell Wyeast, but perhaps also Jim is a bit more anti-establishment
than most ;^).
***
Andrew praises Oud Beersel Geuze and Lambik that he had at the cafe next
to the brewery/museum. Perhaps I got some from a bad bottle/cask, but I was
quite unhappy with the flavour of the beers there. I don't have my notes
here, but I do recall that they were off.
***
Ed writes:
>The De Koninck kriek billowed cherry, and had an
>acid finish. It was a fabulous, intense drink. The warm and
>motherly waitress gave me a De Koninck glass as a souvenir. [Since
>then I have read in Tim Webb's 2nd edition of the CAMRA guide that
>the blending of De Koninck was taken over by Girardin in 1990 and was
>last made in 1992. It may now be extinct; I'll look out for it.]
I believe it is made by some other "lambik" brewer these days. I had
a bottle of each at a small cafe in Dworp. They came in small (11.2 oz,
I believe) bottles that were crown-capped and not corked. The beers
were not very sour and were obviously sweetened. I have the new brewery's
name in my notes (J-P told me what it was, and I wrote it down), but don't
have my notes here. I'm quite sure it is made by one of Interbrew's
shambik breweries (judging from the untraditional taste). If it is Girardin,
then they are making a traditional-tasting product under their own label
and a sodapop for De Koninck.
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 15:33:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Wyeast 3278
% From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
% Subject: Wyeast Brett
%
% Jim writes:
% >And if your logic is correct then the W3278 is way off mark since it contains a
% >little brett with a bunch of saccharomyces.
%
% This may be true, from a microbiologist's point-of-view, but not consistent
% with my experience. If there is Saccharomyces in there, it is not very
% normal. I made a starter from a package of the Wyeast Brett and it started
% very slowly and fermented slowly for several weeks. I then pitched that into
% 5 gallons of wort and again it fermented very slowly. If it is a mixed
% strain (incidentally, Jim's post is the first I've heard of this) then
% the non-Brett strain *appears* outwardly a lot more like Brettanomyces than
% Saccharomyces.
Microbiologist or not the main yeast is saccharomyces cereveisiae.
This is for everyones memory. Check the Beer page for searches on liddil and
wyeast to read the story. 3278 has always been a blend. I check an old
package (5 months after date) and the viability over all was very low). I did
assimilation testing of both the strains (Logsdon claims he puts 3, a
saccharomyce a lambicus and a brux) and the saccharomyces is a cereveisiae
variant of european origin used as health food FWIW.
%
% Why do you say there is Saccharomyces in there? Did you plate some out and
% some colonies did not grow on cyclohexamide?
Because I have tested 4 packages now including one produced on 8-23-95 and
found the same thing. Call Wyeast yourself and ask Dave. Or pay $800 to the
ATCC and they will tell you what is there if you don't believe me.
Gee I wonder if the AHA or BT will report anything about this? I guess we just
don't touch sacred cows. :-)
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 7:44:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Alternatives
Russell wrote:
%
% What _IS_ the new name of Wyeast #3278B ? Is it just called 3278B ?
The is for bogus. :-)
% Until such another brand arises, I need yeast to make beer with, and that takes
% a priority over some other concerns.
May I suggest you learn some basic yeast ranching techniques? A number of
companies sell the supplies and instructions to get you started. Also there
are numerous sources of yeast these days. This hoby is all about learning and
not necessarily depending on one company for supplies. Why is it people will
build monster 3 tier systems and then not culture yeast?
And I personally doubt that Wyeast has as much experience or scientific
knowledge regarding the making of lambic as a number of individuals here.
Testing lambic cultures takes years and I just don't think Wyeast really knows
what going on. Besides how can I buy stuff from a company that is so paranoid
and insecure that they threaten to sue one little homebrewer and then give us
this letter that looks like spin control. So what else wyeast have to
hide? Remember homebrewers are not the only market for their products.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 05:51:12 -0500
From: blacksab at siu.edu
Subject: re: wyeast
I must have missed the original posting (I've been out of town for a few
weeks), but have gleaned from recent postings that wyeast sued or threatened
to sue a harmless homebrewer for what, informing that their Brett. yeast is
"cut" with ale yeast? Could someone e-mail me the relevant facts? What I'm
infering is that Wyeast is selling ale yeast with a little Brett. in it and
calling it Brett. Isn't that like selling "orange drink" as orange juice?
There are legal definitions, no? It seems to me that we homebrewers need to
inform these companies that we are their market and that at least a number
of letters are in order, if not an out and out boycott, but I'll withhold
judgement until I'm in possession of all the facts.
TIA, Harlan Bauer <blacksab at siu.edu>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 08:58:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Bickham <bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: BJCP exam at the GABF
This will hopefully clear up the confusion!
The BJCP is going ahead with the plan to offer an exam at the Great
American Beer Festival on Friday, October 6th. The AHA will not
sponsor the exam, but they have assisted Phil Fleming in reserving
a room. Anyone interested in taking the exam should contact me
as soon as possible to find out where to register and obtain study
materials.
Scott Bickham
BJCP Co-Director
- --
====================================================================
E-Mail: bickham at dave.nrl.navy.mil 7507 Swan Point Way
Columbia, MD 21045
FAX: (202) 404-7546 (410) 290-7721
====================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 12:10:48 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: A is for acetyl capryllate
> The B is for bogus. :-)
Heh heh heh.
> May I suggest you learn some basic yeast ranching techniques?
Okay, let me first say I do know some basic yeast ranching techniques.
(I prefer the misnomer "yeastherder", but we'll make due.) For my lambics,
I use cultures taken from bottles, not any pre-made cultures. Will it work?
Time will tell. Lots of time.
But, when it comes to slapping up an x-mas ale or a stout or a weizen, I
prefer the ease of use of Wyeast, as well as the availability. I've had
some problems with mailorder in the past, and, while I'll likely use it in
the future (including trying a more involved yeast culture), I also like the
fact that I can tool on down to my local brewstore and get one right from
the fridge there.
> Why is it people will
> build monster 3 tier systems and then not culture yeast?
My equipment may have a Frankenstein-ian look to it, but it's not 3-tiered
by any stretch. (More like a 1/2 tier system.)
> And I personally doubt that Wyeast has as much experience or scientific
> knowledge regarding the making of lambic as a number of individuals here.
I'm convinced they don't.
> Besides how can I buy stuff from a company that is so paranoid
> and insecure that they threaten to sue one little homebrewer and then give us
> this letter that looks like spin control.
This is a good point. Frankly, though, an all-out boycott of Wyeast would be
more of a pain in my ass than it's worth.
> So what else wyeast have to
> hide? Remember homebrewers are not the only market for their products.
I'm really not sure what this is supposed to mean. Are you talking about
microbreweries or something? What else would you do with their products
except make tiny batches of beer?
-R
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 09:04:25 -0400
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: fermentation length
A friend has a Lambic fermenting away for the last 6 months. He used whatever
the GW Kent (Yeast Labs?) Lambic culture is.
I've seen the beer, and it has a white sort of fuzzy layer on the top. Slowly
bubbling through the airlock.
HIs questions are:
How long to let it ferment before bottling? Can you go by the gravity, or
just let it sit for all of the various characters to develop?
When bottling, should you prime as usual? His concern is
overpriming/exploding bottles if there is too much left to ferment at
bottling time.
Thanks,
Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY <btalk at aol.com>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 04:09:15 EDT
From: usfmdkzj at ibmmail.com
Subject: Addressing block error
THIS IS A CORPORATE DOCUMENT - FOLLOW RECORDS MANAGEMENT POLICY
FROM: Thomas E Herron Jr
Subject: Addressing block error
/begin
Regards,
Thomas E Herron Jr
Engine Division, Drafting Night Shift
(313) 84-58949 (THERRON)
*** Forwarding note from RESPONSE--IBMMAIL 09/13/95 03:45 ***
Date: 09/13/95 03:45:12
From: RESPONSE--IBMMAIL
To: USFMDKZJ--IBMMAIL
Subject: Addressing block error
Your mail item did not contain a valid command to indicate
the start of the addressing block. The addressing block must
start with the line:
/internet (case insensitive)
No commands were processed, and the item was not sent to any
addressees.
- ---- Original Text Follows
To: INTERNET--IBMMAIL
cc: THERRON --DRBN006
THIS IS A CORPORATE DOCUMENT - FOLLOW RECORDS MANAGEMENT POLICY
FROM: Thomas E Herron Jr
Subject: Framboise Questions
/begin
/to lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
/end
Help, I'm interested in making a Framboise but having a hard time trying to
figure out brett and pedio, when to add them, and what kind of starter to make.
Any helpful hints would be appreciated.
Here is a list of ingredients I have collected so far.
7 lbs Belgian 2-row
3 lbs Wheat
Tettnang hops
17 oz Swiss Raspberry Syrup
Wyeast Belgian Abbey
Yeastlab Pediococcus Cerevisiae
Yeastlab Brettanomyces Lambicus
I have read Lambic of the Classic Beer Series but still don't feel
comfortable enough to proceed.
Regards,
Thomas E Herron Jr
Engine Division, Drafting Night Shift
(313) 84-58949 (THERRON)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 04:19:06 EDT
From: usfmdkzj at ibmmail.com
Subject: Framboise Questions
THIS IS A CORPORATE DOCUMENT - FOLLOW RECORDS MANAGEMENT POLICY
FROM: Thomas E Herron Jr
Subject: Framboise Questions
/begin
Sorry if you receive this twice, the first time there were errors.
Regards,
Thomas E Herron Jr
Engine Division, Drafting Night Shift
(313) 84-58949 (THERRON)
*** Forwarding note from THERRON --DRBN006 09/13/95 03:41 ***
To: INTERNET--IBMMAIL
cc: THERRON --DRBN006
THIS IS A CORPORATE DOCUMENT - FOLLOW RECORDS MANAGEMENT POLICY
FROM: Thomas E Herron Jr
Subject: Framboise Questions
/begin
/to lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
/end
Help, I'm interested in making a Framboise but having a hard time trying to
figure out brett and pedio, when to add them, and what kind of starter to make.
Any helpful hints would be appreciated.
Here is a list of ingredients I have collected so far.
7 lbs Belgian 2-row
3 lbs Wheat
Tettnang hops
17 oz Swiss Raspberry Syrup
Wyeast Belgian Abbey
Yeastlab Pediococcus Cerevisiae
Yeastlab Brettanomyces Lambicus
I have read Lambic of the Classic Beer Series but still don't feel
comfortable enough to proceed.
Regards,
Thomas E Herron Jr
Engine Division, Drafting Night Shift
(313) 84-58949 (THERRON)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 13:10:55 -0700
From: Michael Sharp <msharp at Synopsys.COM>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #688 (September 07, 1995)
The attached message was sent to lambic-request, not lambic so I'm
forwarding it.
--Mike
- ----- Begin Included Message -----
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:24:12 -0700
From: hwn1959 at scn.org (SCN User)
To: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #688 (September 07, 1995)
Reply-To: hwn1959 at scn.org
Content-Length: 588
This is in response to Jim's letter signed "just say know to Wyeast"
I have known & worked with Dave & Wyeast for years.I have NEVER known him
to hide anything, except the actual names of the breweries that yeast
has come from.The reason for this should be obvious. Dave has ALWAYS been
helpful to me as a 8 homebrewer & as a pro. His company maintains our yeast
for us and helps us out with any problems we might have. I don't think it is rig
right or fair for Jim to say that Dave has been decievingLY brewers.
Wyeast has done a service for homebrewing.
Fal Allen - Pike place brewery
- ----- End Included Message -----
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 12:27:41 -0500
From: tmg at galactose.mc.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: Re: fermentation length
Bob Talkiewicz of Binghamton, NY <btalk at aol.com> writes:
>HIs questions are:
>How long to let it ferment before bottling? Can you go by the gravity, or
>just let it sit for all of the various characters to develop?
>
>When bottling, should you prime as usual? His concern is
>overpriming/exploding bottles if there is too much left to ferment at
>bottling time.
Oh, come now, Bob, we see these questions all the time, and I want to
reassure you that you have nothing to be ashamed of. Remember, it's not
the length of fermentation, but the _quality_ of fermentation that really
matters.
Now, I realize that there are certain individuals who strut around the LD
touting the length of their fermentations. But, really, do you think that
their p-lambics are any more satisfying than those of the rest of us? I
think that it should be emphasized that with a little imagination and extra
attention shorter fermentations can produce satisfying results. Most
importantly: let your p-lambic know that you care, and let's cast off
the myth of the "long fermentation." :-)
Okay, enough nonsense. These are pretty good questions and having gone
through two blendings and bottlings (and all the obsessing over such
nagging questions), I thought I'd offer my perspective.
First, when is it ready?
It's ready when it tastes right and when the gravity has dropped down
significantly (probably, at or below 1.008). Of course, it may never taste
right. However, I doubt that if it hits 1.008 and isn't even hinting that
it is a p-lambic (in flavor and aroma), it may never do so. Having been a
small culture pitcher, I don't see pellicle formation until 3-5 months (3
batches). Noticeable souring doesn't occur until after 6 months.
Priming.
It's a tougher call when blending at bottling time and will depend on how
much young p-lambic is being added and at what gravity (for both old and
young). I think that if you can get your blended gravity to about 1.010-12
you will have satisfactory results without risking too much. However, the
presence of Brett does necessitate that stronger bottles be used if the
p-lambic will sit around in the bottles for an extended period of time.
Sparkling wine bottles work wonderfully.
If priming with corn sugar and the gravity is at 1.008 or less then prime
according to the desired level of carbonation. What you will get is an
initial and rapid carbonation period occuring within 1-4 weeks as the corn
sugar is converted to EtOH and CO2. Then additional, but much slower
accumulation of CO2 will occur as the Brett works on some of the higher
polysaccharides that are still in the p-lambic.
I've blended and boosted with corn sugar, adding just enough to give me
some liveliness in the short term, but not enough to produce gushers in the
long run (hopefully). It has worked pretty well, but I will probably up
the amount of corn sugar in the future to produce an overall livilier beer.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 09:06:37 -0700
From: Michael Sharp <msharp at Synopsys.COM>
Subject: What is a pellicle? That is the question.
This message was sent to lambic-request by mistake.
--Mike
- ----- Begin Included Message -----
Date: 14 Sep 95 22:37:53 EDT
From: "Larry D. Gray" <102335.447 at compuserve.com>
To: Lambic Digest <LAMBIC-REQUEST at lance.colostate.edu>
Subject: What is a pellicle? That is the question.
Content-Length: 1414
I thank all of you many (p)lambicphiles for your many contributions. I've been
reading your comments for a few weeks, and appreciate your opinions (albeit
zealous at times) on travels, brewing suggestions, and yeast. Very helpful.
Good stuff. Good job. May I jump in? ... The last comment/question I read
concerned the apparently common and well known white crap on top of our
fermenting beers. I currently have a couple of them now myself. Are they the
"pellicles" we hear and read about? What is a real pellicle and what is its
appearance? Until you tell me mine are real pellicles and because they were not
formed in Belgium, I will refer to them respectfully as (p)pellicles.
(p)ellicle #1: on a 4-month-old lambic which contains K. apiculata,
Saccharomyces, B. bruxellensis, B. anomala, and B. lambicus (pitched in that
order) (Pedio has not been pitched yet); white, powdery, bumpy, surface of the
moon, thick 3-5 mm, and ugly. (p)pellicle #2: on a 4-month-old (sour) red
Belgian ale; very thin, white, very delicate, breaks easily, grows ("crawls" up
the side of the carboy 10-20 mm, traps some CO2 to form a few huge bubbles on
surface. #2 has also formed on a wheat beer in the past with no apparent effect
on flavor. Nothing "oily" yet on either one, but could the #2 be the "oily"
component about which I hear and read rather frequently . I solicit your
opinions and your learned counsel.
- ----- End Included Message -----
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 17:41:04 -0400
From: Scottie617 at aol.com
Subject: brewery names
Fal Allen - Pike place brewery wrote
%This is in response to Jim's letter signed "just say know to Wyeast"
Is this a cute Freudian slip?
%I have known & worked with Dave & Wyeast for years.I have NEVER known him
%to hide anything, except the actual names of the breweries that yeast
%has come from.The reason for this should be obvious
No its not. Can somebody tell me why, because its not obvious to me. Some
companies do devulge their sources and it seems to me that if someone is
hiding something there is dishonesty or maybe guilt involved.
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: TBOUTTE at delphi.com
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #691 (September 11, 1995)
I've been following the Wyeast soap opera and I thought I would throw
this out. I don't see a reason for Wyeast to short change the amount
of Brett. in a package. Both Brett and Saccharomyces grow well, so why
would they feel a need to dilute the Brett?
Troy.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:30:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jeffrey Ziehler <ziehler at post.its.mcw.edu>
Subject: source for K.apiculata?
For the past couple of years it's been bugging me. Where the heck do all
you regular posters who keep mentioning K.apiculata get your cultures?
Are these from dregs and then taxonomically identified? I don't think
that Head Start has K.apiculata, but I've got a fairly old price sheet.
Actually, if anyone has gotten their Kluveromyces strain from ATCC, let
me know the collection # (the yeasts catalog is fairly thick) so I may
order it. (research lab, therefore ATCC is not a problem.)
Jeffrey Ziehler I tried to get a custom license
ziehler at post.its.mcw.edu plate, but the DMV told me that
z-ler at infosoc.com "I'm a grad. student-SHOOT ME!"
http://infosoc.com/~z-ler was too many letters.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:20:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Cranberry Shambic
One of the many things the Boston Beer Company has sent me is one of
those one-page-a-day desk calendars. September 15th's says:
On this day in 1990, Boston Beer Company brewed the first American
version of a lambic. Samuel Adams Cranberry Lambic is brewed with
Massachusetts cranberries and maple syrup.
So, who is entering a plambic in the BBC "World Homebrewing Competition"?
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:02:52 -0700
From: Michael Sharp <msharp at Synopsys.COM>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #695 (September 19, 1995)
This message was sent to the lambic-request address.
I'm just forwarding it.
--Mike
- ----- Begin Included Message -----
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:00:55 -0700
From: hwn1959 at scn.org (SCN User)
To: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #695 (September 19, 1995)
Reply-To: hwn1959 at scn.org
Content-Length: 909
Why should a company have secrets ?.........Many companies have propriEven breweies. Like , say the financial reports or how much a certain employee
is being paid, or what ingredients they use. They fear someone with that kind of info. might take advantage of them. Wyeast must have some sort of protection
against this sort of thing too. If they cultured up yest out of a Bass
bottle & sold it using the Bass name, Maybe Bass would not like that. Maybe Bass
would want to sue them. Maybe Wyeast should keep where they get the yeast from
to themselves.............I would. I hapened to see Dave (from Wyeast) this week
& he had assumed that his 1st multi culture would work best for homebrewers
He meant NO deception. He would not tell me where the culture came from
Of course I would not tell him where we "found" our yeast from either.
It's a secret
Fal Allen - Pike Place Brewery
p.s. - parDon my tyPing
- ----- End Included Message -----
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:27:36 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Pellicles, Bottling
% From: "Larry D. Gray" <102335.447 at compuserve.com>
% To: Lambic Digest <LAMBIC-REQUEST at lance.colostate.edu>
% Subject: What is a pellicle? That is the question.
% Content-Length: 1414
Websters says:
Pellicle: A thin skin or film, as an organic membrane or a liquid film (adj.)
*******
Blending lambic or priming with something other than corn sugar would seem to
make sense. If bacteria are present in the beer at bottling they are most
likely of the homofermentative variety. They will likely utilize the sugar
before the yeast have much of a chance and carbonation will be low. "Young"
beer has the glucose absent and thus only higher dextrins that the brett can
"chew" on. Of course there are other things one could prime with if one does
not have various beers of different ages around the house, which are not all
glucose.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 18:17:16 -0700
From: Michael Sharp <msharp at Synopsys.COM>
Subject: Mort Subite
A few days ago I received a press release from Win It Too of
Santa Barbara, CA. They now have a container of Mort Subite
products in the U.S. and are begining distribution. Available are
the Kriek and Peche in 8.4oz bottles and the Kriek in 750ml
bottles.
If you're interested in more info you might want to contact
Win It Too at WINITTOO at aol.com
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:22:58 +0930 (CST)
From: cvc at itd.dsto.gov.au (Conn Copas)
Subject: Flowers of wine
Can anyone give me a run-down on the effects of Candida Sacharomya (sp?). Due
to some recent spontaneous wine ferments taking place in my kitchen, I seem
to have picked up a wild film yeast in one of my beers; the sort that clings
to the glass when the fermenter is tilted. It grows slowly under an air-lock
but likes oxygen (and warmth). From reading Acton & Duncan, I am guessing that
I have so-called 'flowers of wine'. They tell me it metabolises alcohol and
makes the wine 'lifeless'. I am wondering whether it might be worth letting it
run its course on a gallon of brew, before I sulphite the rest.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 13:34:40 +0930 (CST)
From: cvc at itd.dsto.gov.au (Conn Copas)
Subject: Re: flowers of wine
Yesterday, I referred to Candida Sach something-or-other, which of course was
rubbish and shows I didn't have the book in front of me. It was Candida
Mycoderma I was trying to enquire about.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 09:37:48 +0100
From: thomasr at org.chem.ethz.ch (Rob Thomas)
Subject: flowers of wine
Hi Conn and all,
If the filmy growth you have is really flowers of wine (which it sounds
like) then kill it now. It does indeed eat up alcohol. What you'll end up
with is a watery flavourless ick. All the alcohols (including higher one
attributed with flavour) will turn to water and CO2.
Not pleasant.
Cheers
Rob.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 09:41:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nikolaus Matheis <psu04289 at odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Subject: beer in Mi & Ca?
Hi all,
While between semesters, I boned up on the Lambic Archives so as
to not sound so damn green. I just happened to notice some interesting
tidbits and am interested in finding out about one of them now. I read
(from Dan McConnel) that De Dolle Brouwers products and Cantillon
products were available in Michigan. Are they still? I have a
brother-in-law in Grand Rapids who is coming to visit me in
Belgian-wasteland Oregon in a month. Now, if I could find a distributor,
or better yet - a store with these beers... Any help in my quest for
fine beers and Rodenbach yeast would be appreciated.
Also, could I pleeeeze have Dr. Brian Nummer's e-mail address.
BTW, does he carry the Rodenbach strain? I'll now return you to your
normal lambic-based broadcasting. Sorry for the BW loss 8^)
Nikolaus W. Matheis
Portland, Or.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 13:57:42 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Disturbing E-mail.
Hello, I recently recieved a piece of very disturbing, unsolicited e-mail.
It was racist propoganda, and the sender information was forged. I manage
to recover some of the headers, and it appears to have originated at
astro.u-strasbg.fr or cdsxba.u-strasbg.fr. I am on several mailing lists, and
I am writing each one asking if anyone else has received this mailing, or
recognizes those addresses, or has other information for me. Please respond
by PRIVATE e-mail to me. Thanks for your time, and sorry about the bandwidth.
-Russell Mast
------------------------------
Date: 27 Sep 95 10:24 EDT
From: kwalker at oasys.dt.navy.mil (Kevin Walker)
Subject: New Wine Barrel Question
First, I guess I need to sort of apologize for using this posting to
ask a wine question, but in the regular wine section very few people
subscribe. Anyway, if anyone has experience to the following question
please respond. I've been making wine, along with a childhood friend,
for over 10 years. We are from the Philadelphia area, so in the fall
it is easy finding good quality Italian type grapes. Each year we crush,
ferment and press about 1000 lbs of grapes. The new wine is then racked
into glassware, lots of glassware. This year we bought a new barrel:
Until this year we had never used a barrel. We thought a barrel for
aging wine was a logical progression of things. Now for the problem.
It wasn't until I got the barrel home that I noticed it had a wax film
in and around the bung hole. I, also, suspect that a film of wax is
inside the barrel too. So next, I called the fellow who sold me this
thing, he said that the wax can be removed with hot water. Hum. He added
that the barrel was made of either American Oak or Italian Chestnut,
he was not sure. Double Hum. In any case, is this fellow being "straight"
with me concerning the hot water treatment. Or did he sell me something
that I did not or cannot use? I do not know. If anyone has comments
or suggestions, good or bad, please do not hesitate, E-Mail me that
the above address. All responses will be very much appreciated. If further
information is needed on my part to properly comment, I'll be happy
to respond.......thank you in advance...Kevin Walker
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 9:19:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Turbid Mashing
The other day I converted the Cantillon mash schedule Mike Sharp posted to
homebrew scale and gave it a try. Van Roy apparently gave this schedule to
Guinard also as the schedule in"Lambic" is the same without the water addtion
volumes. Also I would say Van Roy is fudging a wee bit in that based on my
calculations he gets ~33 pt/lbs/gal. this may be due to the fact that the rakes
run all the time and the bigger size.
For 5 gallons
5.25 lbs of DC pils malt
2.75 lbs winter wheat, unmalted
I assumed I would get 30 pts/lbs/gal. I ended up with 5 gallons of 1040 wort
(25 pts/lbs/gal).
I use an Easymasher (tm) in a 8 gallons canning pot.
In kettle #1 add water at 144 F to the crushed grain. For this amount of grain
this is 2.5 quarts. This did raise the temp right to 113 F. This is just
enough water to wet the grain. It required a good deal of stirring to make
sure all the grain was wetted and there were no flour balls. This took about
20 minutes including the 10 minute rest.
Next add boiling water to raise the temperature to 136 F. This took about 3.5
quarts. the mash became very soupy and liquid. The supernatant was like milk.
This was allowed to rest for 5 minutes. Then I with drew a quart of liquid
through the em spigot. This liquid was heated to 176 F in kettle #2. It
clarified and a large flocullant break formed. Heating was done over 10
minutes.
More boiling water is added to the mash over the course of 10 minutes to bring
the temp to 150 F. As with the other steps constant stirring is required. I
beleive the rakes run all the time at Cantillon. Your arm will get tired. It
took about 5 quarts to bring the temperature up to 150 F. The mash was really
liquid at this point and not as cloudy. It was still full of particulate
matter. The mash is allowed to rest for 30 minutes.
Four quarts of liquid is removed and added to kettle #2 and heated to 176 F.
This liquid was not as milky as before wiht less particulates.
More boiling water is added to the mash to bring it to 162 F. Again this took
about 5 quarts withcontinuous stirring. the mash supernatant was fairly clear
with some particulate matter.
The mash is allowed to rest for 20 minutes. The liquid is run off into kettle
#3 and heated. The liquid isn kettle #2 at 176 F is added back to kettle #1 to
bring the temp up to 167 F. this too about a gallon of the liquid. The mash
again rests for 20 minutes.
The wort in kettle #1 is recirculated and sparging begun. Sparge with 185 F
water. I collected a total of 9 gallons of liquid from all the various steps.
The wort was boiled with 4 ounces of old tettnanger hops in a hop bag. It took
3 hours to boil down to 5 gallons.
Initially the wort had large flocullant break material. By the end of the boil
very little breka remained and the wort was very clear.
I cooled the wort with recirculating ice water to 45 F. The cold break was
very fine and I did not get a lot trapped in my filter setup as compared to all
malt beers made by "Normal" mashing methods.
This took a total of 8 hours from start to finish with all equipment cleaned a
put away.
Jim
ps to the guy asking about wine barrels. Take that one back and get one made
of american or french oak that is unlined. If you are going to make red wine
get one that is toasted.
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