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Lambic Digest #0597
From postmaster at lance.colostate.edu Sat May 6 03:32:13 1995
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Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 00:30:17 -0600
From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #597 (May 06, 1995)
Lambic Digest #597 Sat 06 May 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Bears eat oak (Russell Mast)
Re: Wooden Wine Barrels (Dennis B. Lewis Jr.)
Re: Lambic Digest #596 (May 05, 1995) (Michael Sharp)
Eric Toft's Brewery (mstickle)
Cantillon Imports (James Caldwell)
Wisdom in the Archives (Mike Bovee)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 09:16:18 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Bears eat oak
> > > I have some "French Oak Chips" that I bought to put in my plambic to
> > > provide a nesting ground for Brett.
> > The oak isn't just used to lend a flavor to the beer.
> I know I DON'T want the taste of this wood, if I did I'd just add some
> Jack Daniels to the beer.
Jack Daniel's is aged in oak that has been burned to charcoal inside. That's
the flavor you'll get from charred casks, which I've seen available. If you
use 'raw' oak, you'll get quite a different flavor. I'm using oak chips in
my first lambic (i can hardly wait). I took a few chips and brewed an oak
tea, and I like it. (THough it's not replacing coffee as my morning tipple,
it is a flavor I want in my beer.)
But, you're right about not wanting the charred oak flavor in there.
-R
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 11:24:40 -0400
From: aw405 at yfn.ysu.edu (Dennis B. Lewis Jr.)
Subject: Re: Wooden Wine Barrels
>From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman
>Regarding casks: I was watching "This Old House" last night and they
>had a nice segment on a coopery (?) in the Napa valley (CA) that works
>for the wine industry. They quoted a price for a large barrel (at least
>a barrel (31 gallons)) of ~$275. Maybe they have smaller cheaper ones
>for those of you who are interested.
About a year ago, I picked this off the net. I don't remember if
it was from the Mead Digest or this one, but I figured a repost
couldn't hurt. This may be the place you saw. I'm interested
in getting a barrel or two for mead, but haven't had the
time/cash (time = $$ you know...). I don't know what kind of
wood they are offering, but European Oak barrels (~50 gal) are
about $550-600 each. Used wine barrels might be a good option
since most of the tannins, etc have been leached out by the
wine. A winery will almost give you one. They sell old barrels
for planters for about $15 each.
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 08:59:38 -0700
From: "Richard B. Webb" <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>
Subject: Barrels and stuff
Well, I got back the information from the
Barrel Builders of St. Helena, CA, and
here's where I let you know about what they
do. As is standard, I have no affiliation with
this company. I just was curious to
know what was available.
You want barrels? They got barrels.
Size price
(gal)
1 59$
5 103
10 124
15 135
20 146
30 169
Barrel cradles
1-3 gal 5$
5 gal 7
10 gal 9
And for those of us who want to make
vinegar, they have a starter kit,
including the 1 gal barrel, a spigot,
a cradle, a vinegar starter, and an
instruction book.
The also have wooden spigots in various
sizes. They shave barrels. They toast
barrels. They even sell barrel rinsers,
kind of a washing machine for wood. With
all of that wood chopping that they must be
doing, they even have oak chips for sale,
both american and french.
Again, they can be reached at
P.O. box 268
St. Helena, CA 94574
(707)942-4291
Good luck!
Rich Webb
- --
Dennis B. Lewis <aw405 at yfn.ysu.edu>
Homebrew. The Final Frontier.
Bringt mir alle zehn Minuten ein Bier bis ich abwinke!
Danach nur noch alle zwanzig Minuten eins!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 08:24:44 -0700
From: Michael Sharp <msharp at Synopsys.COM>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #596 (May 05, 1995)
Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU> writes:
> Subject: Welcome back Mike/Brett, wood, O2
>
> > > I have some "French Oak Chips" that I bought to put in my plambic to
> > > provide a nesting ground for Brett.
> > The oak isn't just used to lend a flavor to the beer. when a barrel/cask
> > is used it provides a minute amount of oxygen transfer while (apparently)
> > has a subtle effect on the final beer produced. I don't know that the
> > brettanomyces really needs anything to grow on.
>
> I know I DON'T want the taste of this wood, if I did I'd just add some
> Jack Daniels to the beer. I am fermenting in an HDPE barrel in an effort
> to provide small amounts of O2, although it is pretty thick. . . .
> I thought I had seen comments about brett having an affinity for wood?
The only thing that comes to mind is that Brettanomyces does take up residence
in the wood of real lambic barrels. The thing is, I don't know that it is
_necessary_ for the happyness of the Brettanomyces.
> If not I just won't add the chips.
Given the "quality" of your chips I'd be tempted to skip them.
If they didn't have the JD flavor/aroma I'd tell you that they're
not going to hurt much so what the hell...
> Regarding casks: I was watching "This Old House" last night and they
> had a nice segment on a coopery (?) in the Napa valley (CA) that works
> for the wine industry. They quoted a price for a large barrel (at least
> a barrel (31 gallons)) of ~$275. Maybe they have smaller cheaper ones
> for those of you who are interested.
I saw a part of this. One of my barrels is from this place though it wasn't
made in Napa. This cooperage is French owned and (from what I understand)
the french oak barrels are made in France. I'm under the impression that
only the American oak casks are made in Napa. YMMV. Oh, their pricing
is all done in French francs and they quote you after looking up the day's
exchange rate.
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 95 17:46 EDT
From: mstickle at fast.net
Subject: Eric Toft's Brewery
I'm going to Germany in a few weeks and would like to visit the brewery Eric
Toft (of SOB fame) works for. I know it is in Stein in Bavaria but I would
like the exact address if possible. My brother lives and works in Bern
Switzerland and is thinking of putting a few months labor at a brewery prior
to returning to the states. That means I need an exact address so that he can
send his resume to Eric prior to our visit. If anyone knows it, I would
greatly appreciate you sending it to me via private email. TIA
Mark Stickler
mstickle at fast.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 16:04:38 -0700
From: jimcald at ix.netcom.com (James Caldwell)
Subject: Cantillon Imports
I spoke by phone with Maurice Coja, owner of Wide World Imports and
Brickskeller, regarding the recent discussions in the Lambic Digest
regarding the importation of Cantillon (and DeDolle) products. The
following is a summary of our discussion and a letter he wrote to Jean
Pierre which has been authorized by Mr. Coja for my posting to the
Lambic Digest. I will provide him with copies of any response and
forward his replies as appropriate.
Mr. Coja was surprised and puzzled by the remarks attributed to Jean
Pierre Van Roy, and believes that there may have been a
misunderstanding that resulted viewing the importation of Cantillon
products into the U.S. from two different perspectives. He said that
he will continue to import Cantillon, that he would like to import it
by multi-container loads, and that he wanted to supply as many areas as
possible with these products, not just Brickskeller.
Maurice said that on his last purchase, he bought more of the Cantillon
Kriek and Framboise than he needed base upon Jean Pierre's informing
him that the supply was going to be more limited in the future. He
said that he would check, but he believed he still had adequate
inventories of the Cantillon products.
As a general background, he said that Europeans tend to think of the
U.S. as a single entity, but in reality, it is actually 50 states with
50 bureaucracies and 50 sets of rules for importing beers. Most states
have brand registration requirements and associated fees. Some are
one-time fees ranging from $100-500, but others, like Connecticut, for
example, charge $1000 per year per brand (Cantillon Kriek and Cantillon
Gueze would be counted as two brands), and Rhode Island, charges
$1500/label/year! On a specialty product such as Cantillon, it would be
nearly impossible to supply such states due to purely economic
considerations. In some states, the alcoholic content is too high to
be allowed, while others such as Florida and Texas have container size
specifications that must be met. Virginia rejected Cantillon twice
because it was "too sour to be beer." It was only after Maurice
persuaded the state that it was indeed beer that permission was finally
granted. In many cases, getting state approval requires travel, and
meeting with the alcohol control boards of the individual states.
Once past the bureaucracy and fees for each state, whether or not a
beer is available depends upon the decision of a distributor to carry
it; many of whom are reluctant to pick up small-volume specialty
products. If that hurdle is crossed, then the same applies to the
individual retailers.
Maurice said that it was his experience that it took a considerable
amount of time for acquired taste products such as lambic to generate
enough demand to make supplying them viable. He did not, for example,
think that Alabama was a likely target for future marketing efforts.
He said he is currently trying to get into California, especially in
the Los Angeles and SF markets.
Maurice is very positive about promoting Cantillon products, to quote
from his letter to Jean Pierre, "Wide World Imports strongly believes
in Cantillon products and feels that the United States will learn to
appreciate the product. That is why we are not discouraged."
Maurice promised a list of the states where his products are currently
available, and asked that those interested in lambic and other
speciality beers express that interest to their local retailers. I'll
post that list when it becomes available.
Disclaimer: I have no financial involvement in the above enterprises,
other than as a heavy contributor at Brickskeller during my 90 minute
lunch breaks ;-).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 23:45:37 -0600
From: mbovee at REX.RE.uokhsc.edu (Mike Bovee)
Subject: Wisdom in the Archives
Having the good fortune to make a work/vacation trip to Belgium and
Netherlands (first time!) with my wife this summer, I have been combing the
lambic archives from the beginning for useful information. It has been well
worth the effort: In depth information on style descriptions and
round-table tastings by the hardcore lambic-heads... recipes, brewing notes
and descriptions of the resulting beers... HOARDS of relevant (i.e. not too
dated) info on how to "do" the Belgian beer scene...the list goes on...
Perhaps this is just as anyone would expect, but my point is, if you
haven't looked in there before, check it out!
So far, I have found particular use for stuff in l.0012 and l.0013, and
overall I feel indebted to Michael Sharp, Martin Lodahl, and C.R. Saikley
in particular for their invaluable and "timeless" comments and
perspectives. (Just don't let it go to your heads, guys :-)
I have a question regarding a Brussels beer store called Biers Artisanals,
that was mentioned by C.R. Saikley (21 Aug 92). Does anyone have recent
info on whether this place is still in business, and if so, what the
address and tel# are? Is Nasser still the proprieter!?
Finally, thanks to all the other contributers who made it both possible and
worthwhile to get into LD:The Early Years!
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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