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Lambic Digest #0631
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 00:30:19 -0600
From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #631 (June 22, 1995)
Lambic Digest #631 Thu 22 June 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
How to salvage a beer (bickham)
Sweetened lambiks/Timmerman's (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
More Lambic Judging (Jim Liddil)
Judging Competency, Spelling Bees (C.R. Saikley)
What is this film on top? (Martin Wilde)
First Lambic (Mark B. Alston)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 08:58:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: How to salvage a beer
Although none of my Belgian ales or lambics made it to the second
round in Baltimore, I managed to take 3rd in the specialty with a
contaminated beer. Here is the recipe:
1. Brew a witbier and add lactobacillus late in the secondary to
produce a slight natural sourness in the finish.
2. Brew a Bavarian wheat beer and ferment in the same carboy without
thoroughly sanitizing it to remove all traces of the lactobacillus.
3. After fermenting and racking to a keg, you notice an intense sourness.
Hmmm, in your kitchen you notice a canister of cranberry herbal tea.
Dump tea into a muslim hop bag and add to keg for 1 week.
4. Read ingredients on tea canister. Congratulations, you have just
brewed a hibiscus, red clover, cranberry Berliner Weiss (never mind
that the gravity is 20 points too high).
Ironically, it was judged as a cranberry lambic in the first round and
had scores of 42 and 43.
Cheers,
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jun 95 10:14:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Sweetened lambiks/Timmerman's
Russell writes:
>> This will heavy on fruit but I figure that since most of the
>> true products are very sour and most of what we are seeing in the states are
>> sweetened lambics, I might get a middle of the road product.
>
>Can anyone confirm this? I was under the impression that the various
>microflora in even a pLambic could handle almost any amount you throw at them
>and your beer will become sour and dry with anything but a prohibitive
>quantity of sugars or a special sweetener.
Absolutely. The key is to pasteurize first and then sweeten. Very
untraditional!
>Also, has anyone tried making a sweeter lambic by adding saccharine or lactose
>to their beer? (Will the lactose get taken up?)
Lactose will be eaten, but my guess would be that saccharine would not.
However, saccharine is quite bitter in larger amounts -- this may be covered-
up by coffee, but in a delicate geuze it may be too bitter. What about
aspartame (Nutrasweet)? Well, I personally, am allergic to it and would
*expect* to be warned before judging it. Isn't there a "sorbitol" sweetener
or something like that?
Well, whatever way you do sweeten your lambik, I'm not going to score it high
if it is a sweetened lambik. It's just not a traditional flavour. Suppose
ginger got very popular in Pilsners... so popular, that most Pilsners sold
had some in them. Would you mark-down a Classic Bohemian Pilsner that had
ginger in it? I would. Popularity is no excuse for tossing out classical
guidelines for a beer. Create a new subcategory, but don't bastardize the
traditional guidelines.
Say, perhaps this would help... let's say we split the Lambik category
into six subcategories: Traditional Geuze, Traditional Faro, Traditional
Fruit Lambik, Sweetened Geuze, Sweetened Faro and Sweetened Fruit Lambik.
On the other hand, perhaps this would *not* help. Consider those judges
that are so ignorant that they have neither tasted nor are aware of real
lambiks *AND* are fool enough to not even read the AHA guidelines:
"Intensely and cleanly sour." Sounds pretty clear to me.
***
Jim writes:
>So this brings me to ask, what should be considered as the best commercial
>examples. If someone duplicates Lindemans should it get a 40? It is celar to
>me that many brewers stilldon't really understand the style, but then it is
>very complex. With other styles we have pretty clear cut examples of the style.
I would say that the best commercial examples are not readily available in
the US. Hanssens is the best commercial lambik that I've had. I feel that
it is better balanced than either Boon or Cantillon although I would put
these two well above the rest. I'd have to actually do this at home to get
the amounts correct, but I would venture to guess that a very good, well-
balanced lambik could be created by mixing about 1/3 St. Louis Geuze and
2/3 Boon Geuze. St. Louis, while it is a sweetened product, has one of the
most complex and horsey noses I've experienced. I've also chosen these two
beers to "blend at home" because they have a wider availability than, say,
Cantillon.
Does anyone have any word on the Eylenbosch beers that were supposed to be
imported to the US? How to they compare? Are they here yet? The brewery
is owned by Alken-Maes, but they could still be traditional-tasting no?
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 8:12:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: More Lambic Judging
Russell wrote:
% > This will heavy on fruit but I figure that since most of the
% > true products are very sour and most of what we are seeing in the states are
% > sweetened lambics, I might get a middle of the road product.
%
% Can anyone confirm this? I was under the impression that the various
% microflora in even a pLambic could handle almost any amount you throw at them
% and your beer will become sour and dry with anything but a prohibitive
% quantity of sugars or a special sweetener.
This is true. The various microorganisms in lambic will eventually metabolize
all the sugars and dextrins.
%
% Also, has anyone tried making a sweeter lambic by adding saccharine or lactose
% to their beer? (Will the lactose get taken up?) I don't want something as
% sweet and Lindemann's Kriek, but I have considered trying to make part of the
% batch a little sweeter for the little woman. (She likes the dryer stuff okay,
% though.)
I have been speculating about saccharin and have discussed it off line wrt to
Hansens. I did not get around to trying it last night but the use of saccharin
is on the to do list. I recall someone (Martin Lodahl?) saying he thought that
saccharin gave beer a yucky taste.
%
% > Seems my other plambic friends have been told by competition judges that
% > their plambics are too sour.
%
% Those judges probably didn't know what they were doing. That happens.
A REAL problem out there
Martin wrote:
% When I questioned the judges
% about the scores, their feedback was that they did not like the sour
% style of lambics and had never heard of or tasted Cantillion or even new
% lambics could be sour...
Again a real problem. A great deal of work needs to be done educating judges
about the style. Also brewers themselves need to better understand what lambic
is all about.
%
% On a similiar subject, last year when I taught a judge training class I
% served several different lambics, they all enjoyed the "soda-pop"
% varieties and disliked the Boon's and Cantillion's.
Well there is such a thing a choice. The detroch stuff is a big seller
apparently. So what do we consider a standard?
%
% So either I quit entering lambic's and do more judging/educating or I
% will have to adopt a "what kind of judging am I going to get at this
% competition" attitude and adjust the entry to satisfy the type of judges
% I expect to get. The latter is NOT MY FAVORITE CHOICE but until the
% judging community becomes better educated, I feel like I am wasting my
% time and money entering sour lambics in competitions where I suspect the
% level of judging experience.
Well you and I can start on a mission from GOD. That is why I had the lambic
tasting at the AHA conf, because I feel more education of the style needs to be
done. I feel the same way you do. Why did I waste perfectly good beer on
judges that tell me it is too sour? (Mike Sharp is going "I told you so.")
And it is OK for MIke not to want to be involved with the AHA or competitions.
But I have made the choice to do so and thus feel that the judges should get up
to speed. To those of you who have not had Cantillion, get some. Find a
friend in the east and have them UPS it to you. I certainly don't have
CAntillion in Arizona. :-) And whcih ever judge program prevails needs to work
on education as well.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 12:06:21 PDT
From: cr at humphrey.com (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Judging Competency, Spelling Bees
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
>In Digest #629 John DeCarlo talks about judging lambics and sourness
>levels. Unfortunately not all judges share your opinions (I wish they
>did though!!!). I entered my pLambic in 3 competitions - World of Beer
>in Oakland, Oregon Homebrew Festival, and AHA Nationals. I received 3
>different scorings, World of Beer: 42, Oregon Homebrew Festival: 8!,
>AHA: 32. I had no problems with the World of Beer and AHA results, but
>as you can see the judges at the Oregon Homebrew Festival (no offense to
>the Judge coordinator...) did not know their butt from a hole in the
>ground when it came to judging lambics. When I questioned the judges
>about the scores, their feedback was that they did not like the sour
>style of lambics and had never heard of or tasted Cantillion or even new
>lambics could be sour...
Ahhhh...Excellent beer Martin. Congratulations on your effort. The highly
esteemed (grin) judging panel at the World of Beer consisted of Martin
Lodahl, Mike Sharp, Sheri Almeda (Mike's wife) and myself. Unfortunately,
your observations about lambic judging are also right on the mark. On the
positive side, the level of competency among beer judges in the US is not
static. Look at where we were 5 or 10 years ago. Lambics are fringe beers,
and thus the level of understanding lags behind more mainstream pale ales
and stouts etc. This situation can only improve.
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
>>Why is "gueuze" sometimes spelled "geuze." At first I thought it was
>>just a typographical error, but it appears that some breweries simply
>>name their beers in this way. I have also seen "lambic" spelled as
>>"lambik," but this is clear -- "lambik" would be a Flemish spelling
>>whereas "lambic" is a Walloon spelling, no?
>And he replied that "geuze" and "lambik" are the Flemish (and original)
>spellings, whereas "gueuze" and "lambic" are the French. He also mentioned
>that "lambic" is also accepted in Flemish. Perhaps this should be put into
>the lambik FAQ?
The situation is further complicated by the fact that there are "new"
spellings and "old" spellings in Flemish. You occasionally run into the
spelling "lambiek" (on the wall in De Rare Vos), which is old Flemish.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 14:03:00 PDT
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: What is this film on top?
I along another person have noticed that our pLambics are developing a
thin white film on the surface. I noticed this film in a previous
batch. The film will then become slightly thicker and "lumpy" which
looks like a textured ceiling. Both of our lambics our about 3 months
old. In addition there is a slight acetic or vinegary smell. My
pLambic is in a cask and the other person's in a carboy.
Any ideas?
thanks
martin
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 15:55:54 EDT
From: beernut at xmission.com (Mark B. Alston)
Subject: First Lambic
I just brewed my first pLambic last night and would like to share
some thoughts and my processes. I have recently read all the back issues of the digest and found that their are still many unanswered questions (or at least unanswered in the digest).
Here is the recipe (10 gal):
14 lbs DWC Pils malt
6.5 lbs Flaked Wheat
1 lb DWC Cara-Vienna
(Question, Someone previously mentioned that they thought it was weird that JXG called for crystal malt in his recipes. This person was concerned about the flavor that crystal would add. However, it seems to me that the crystal malt is used more to add dextrins for later fermentations rather than for adding flavor. Is this a correct conclusion?)
6.5 oz force aged hops (4 oz hall, 1 oz cascade, 1 oz goldings, 1/2 oz unknown)
hops aged by baking for one hour at 275-300 F and leaving out to air
Mashed in at 126 F for 5 min
raised to 130 F for 15 min.
raised to 146 F for 10 min before cooling to 140 F for 8 min.
raised to 156 F and held for 5 min before raising to 158 and holding for 15 min.
mashed out at 170 F
(this schedule was due as much to operator error as to planning)
Sparged with approx 4 gal at 180 F
and 6 gallon near 200 F
(with my current sparging system their is some temp drop before reaching
the mash tun)
The runoff was quite turbid and seemed to carry a fair amount of starches. Am I correct in assuming that this is a positive thing and will help the pedio and brett along?
Boiled for 2 hours and pitched with an 800 ml starter of Wyeast 1007 and a
flask each of GW Kent Brett and Peddio.
Fermentation started in < 10 hours.
I split all yeasts between two fermenters with 5 gal in glass and 5 gal in plastic.
(i.e. 15 ml of Brett and 15 ml Peddio in each fermenter with 400 ml of 1007)
I pitched all yeasts together due to the postings in the digest (and my own gut
feelings) that much of the character might come about during the reproductive stages. This also seems to be the method most accurately approximating belgian
practice. Is this still a valid assumption. Furthermore, I read some posts that Brett may produce acetic acid when in the presence of O2. I love Cantillion Gueuze and am trying to get that note of acetic acid. So pitching the brett with the sacc would seem to increase the acidic character of the ferment. Has anyone explored this?
I split the batch because I could find no conclusions on the best way of fermenting
lambics (plastic or glass) and decided that this split batch could help answer that
question (for me at least).
I am still unclear about racking. Many people seem to rack into a secondary and then pitch with the brett and pedio; however, since I pitched all at once I believe that if I racked I would leave many of the desired yeasties in the trub on the bottom. I carried over practically no hot break but have a fair amount of cold break.
So, should I rack or not. (If there is still no conclusion perhaps I should rack off a gallon of each and allow that to ferment seperately to test the racking question.)
Currently I am leaning toward leaving it alone and letting everything do its own thing. This seems to be somewhat more prevalent over the history of the digest.
Finally, whats the story with oak chips. Should I add toasted or untoasted or neither. Moreover, how much are people using and when should I add them?
This is the most exciting brew I have done since I started brewing. I got so twitterpated when the cultures showed up that it affected my dreams. Has anyone else had the one where you are wandering around the local brewery carrying your vial of peddio and someone there really pisses you off so you open the vial and spread the peddio all over the place? It isn't just me is it?
Thanks for bearing with me,
Mark Alston
beernut at xmission.com
P.S. any pLambic brewers out here in SLC, UT? I would love to hear from you.
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
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