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Lambic Digest #0633
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 00:30:11 -0600
From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #633 (June 24, 1995)
Lambic Digest #633 Sat 24 June 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Lambics and Acid (Jim Liddil)
Popular Lambics (John DeCarlo )
Sugar is sweet, and so are you. (Russell Mast)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 7:46:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Lambics and Acid
Evan wrote:
% At a local bar I oredered a Hansens Kriek and it was served with a
% metal crusher of sorts that I was told was used to crush the cubed sugar
% located on the table in your lambic.
% Simply drop several cubes in the glass then push the instrument to the
% bottom and sweeten to taste.
Indeed this has been done for years. But we can not do this at a competiton.
*******
Scot wrote:
% However while sourness is good, one problem I've noticed is a difficulty
% in recognizing the type of acid that produces it. For example, the
% pKriek that won the lambic category at this years AHA competition was
% quite good, but it had an intense acetic acid flavor with relatively
% little lactic acid for balance. Although some older Belgian lambics do
% have a strong acetic character, IMO the better ones generally have more
% of a lactic character due to the action of pediococcus in the bottle.
% So to me it seems that the most assertive lambic being made by homebrewers
% have an acid imbalance, and the recent analysis of Mike Sharp's beer seem
% to confirm that. Of course I could be wrong, but it's good to contribute
% to a nonpolitical discussion for a change.
%
I have found that adding pure lactic and acetic acid to american wheat works
for me. WRT to the amounts of acid we have to look at a more complete data
set. In the Van Oevelen (sp?) dissertation there is data showing lambic with
2000ppm lactic and 1000 ppm acetic acid. This is still not as high as Mikes.
But his is unblended. I feel blending is the next step.
I have tasted a number of plambics that were quite acid including my current 1
year old batch that was pitched with very low levels of bacteria and yeast. I
can't say for certain but I doubt all the acid is coming from acetobacter.
More likely it is the brett and the particular strain. Why this occurs I am
not sure. I have some ideas to consider and play with though. What I am
trying to achieve now is getting the brett to follow metabolic pathways that
favor production of the caprylic and caproic acids and not lactic and acetic
acid. Library time.
As far as the AHA beers well it was some acid or nothing. :-)
*****
% Peter Crombecq, chairman of the OBP and one of the best beer connaisseurs
% in Belgium, has placed the contents of his latest book on WWW.
% A lot of information is now available concerning beer tastes of Belgium and
% Dutch beers. More info will be added in the future.
%
% Go have a look, it's impressive and looks great!
%
% http://www.dma.be/p/bier/bier.htm#topvanpagina
%
This is a great page!
I am working on a page which will be dedicated to Mike Sharp. I am compiling
various lambic digest travel articles as well as resources for making lambic;
cultures, barrels, labware etc.
***
I wrote:
% Oak is used in the form of a cask. Oak is semipermeable and allows slow
% diffusion of oxygen. The cask used are very old and add no real flavor of
% their own IMNHO. Buy a cask :-)
Also the wood provides a microenvironment for the microorganism to take up home
in>
Also I am temepted to retract my view on allowing judging with a category foe
sweetened lambic. This will only give legitimacy to a product that has no
quality. After a dsicussion the JX Guinard I am now convinced judges need to
be trained. We should not lower our standards. For a good discussion of
quality check out Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Also some grad
students are making lambic again at UC Davis :-)
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:41:18 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Popular Lambics
I will add another data point. Some friends of mine moved to Dusseldorf and
visited Belgium a lot. I got him to bring back some Cantillon (couldn't get
them at the time). He brought lots of German and other Belgian beers and had
a tasting.
When we got to the Cantillon, his wife and several other women said "Oh,
lambics! They are our favorite of all beers!". Needless to say, they all
rejected the Cantillon. Seems that they were used to getting the sweetened
stuff in bars in Belgium and Germany and didn't even *know* they could be
intensely sour.
Luckily for me, I got to take the remains of all the lambics home for myself.
:-)
John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet: 1:109/131 Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:36:04 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Sugar is sweet, and so are you.
Al says :
> Lactose will be eaten, but my guess would be that saccharine would not.
Probably not. I definately have reservations about putting saccharine in
a beer. Maybe a few test bottles at bottling.
> However, saccharine is quite bitter in larger amounts -- this may be covered-
> up by coffee, but in a delicate geuze it may be too bitter. What about
> aspartame (Nutrasweet)? Well, I personally, am allergic to it and would
> *expect* to be warned before judging it.
I would expect that Nutrasweet would be broken down by the yeast, actually.
It's just an amino acid, in bizarre quantaties. Also, because of
phenalketoneuria and other problems, I'd never give a bottle with it without
telling someone.
> Isn't there a "sorbitol" sweetener or something like that?
I'd agree with the poster who speculated that Brett. would eat it, but it might
work.
> Well, whatever way you do sweeten your lambik, I'm not going to score it high
> if it is a sweetened lambik.
Relax, Al. I would make it for the little woman, not for the judges. I might
pass a bottle around at a club meeting, or enter it as a joke in a small
contest to play "stump the judge", but I wouldn't be proud if it won.
> Create a new subcategory, but don't bastardize the
> traditional guidelines.
I'll just keep my dirty little secrets to myself. If I brew a ginger'd
Bohemian Pils ( come to think of it . . . ) I'd drink it up myself anyway.
> Say, perhaps this would help... let's say we split the Lambik category...
> On the other hand, perhaps this would *not* help....
I think we have enough trouble getting decent judgement as is. To seriously
judge a sweetened lambic, to me, is to give undue applause to a bastardization
of style that should really be reserved for brewer's SO's.
> Consider those judges
> that are so ignorant that they have neither tasted nor are aware of real
> lambiks *AND* are fool enough to not even read the AHA guidelines:
> "Intensely and cleanly sour." Sounds pretty clear to me.
Odd they judge a lambic as too sour. Maybe they're using Sam Adam's Cranberry
Lamb-heretic as a comparison.
Martin asks :
> What is this film on top?
Could that be the pseudo-mycelium formed by some of the more exotic critters?
What did you culture with?
Mark asks:
> Finally, whats the story with oak chips. Should I add toasted or untoasted
> or neither. Moreover, how much are people using and when should I add them?
Definately untoasted if at all. I like the flavor, and I'd swear I can taste
a bit in Boon, but maybe I'm hallucinating. I'd boil up an oak tea, taste
that, and estimate strength. Don't actually add the chips at all, just the
tea.
> From: ejk at bselab.bls.com (Evan Kraus)
> Subject: SWEETEND LAMBICS
> At a local bar I oredered a Hansens Kriek and it was served with a
> metal crusher of sorts that I was told was used to crush the cubed sugar
> located on the table in your lambic.
> Simply drop several cubes in the glass then push the instrument to the
> bottom and sweeten to taste.
Actually, I've read that that's the typical way of serving lambics, with a
little sugar or a sweetened syrup or a stick of sugar cane. You can stir it
with the sugar cane.
Still, if we want to be traditional, we should serve our lambics with sugar
on the side. (Talk about confusing some inexperienced judge - rubber band a
small stick of sugar cane to your bottle.)
Jim says -
> I did an experiment last night....
> and dissolved the saccharin in a tablespoon of water and then added it
> dropwise. This worked very well.
That might be a good idea. I think I'll try it with a couple of bottles next
time, or just serve with a little dropper on the side.
-R
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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