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To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #531 (January 25, 1995)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 00:30:13 -0700
Lambic Digest #531 Wed 25 January 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Blanche de Bruges yeast? (Bob Paolino Research Analyst)
Palate Thrashing (Jim Liddil)
1991 Liefmans Kriekbier (Spencer.W.Thomas)
Seeking DeKonick yeast... (Martin Wilde)
Just One Little Nit ... (Martin Lodahl)
Pulled a boner ("Lee Bussy")
Re: Hanssens address, Faro and Koch (Todd Gierman)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 10:29:13 EST
From: Bob Paolino Research Analyst <uswlsrap at ibmmail.com>
Subject: Blanche de Bruges yeast?
Here's a pretty elementary question from a lambic lurker:
I have a small (active) starter going from the bottom of a Blanche de Bruges.
I'm assuming that the bottling yeast is not the same as that from the main
fermentation (but could be wrong), but what kind of character could I expect
if I were to let it feed on four or five gallons of wort? TIA.
Now go have a beer,
Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 8:51:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Palate Thrashing
Scott writes:
% I was wondering if any of you have tasting notes for the many beers you
% sampled, and if so, could you share them with the rest of us so that we
% can at least taste them vicariously. For example, why did you regard
% Hanssen's the overall winner, etc. Pat Baker and Betty-Ann Sather just
% returned from Belgium and would like to compare notes.
Well since I was the only one anal enough to take notes here goes:
Mort Subite Gueuze, filtered: mild acid and brett aroma. some lace, fairly
sweet and spritzy, very clear.
Boon gueuze small bottle, US import version. Good foam, medium brett aroma,
Nice acid aroma. Mild acid attack on palate. Brett flavor dominates over
acid. A well balanced mixture of flavors.
St Louis Grand REserve: Sweet caramel flavor, very mild aroma, very slight
acidity in palate.
Boon Gueuze MP 93: assertive brett aroma, described by some as "sulphury".
Earthy, vegetable, mousy aroma and flavor, Creamy palate. Acid presence
increases as it warms. Excellent foam stand.
Hansens Gueuze: Brett related aromas dominate over acid aroma. yellow arange
color, darker than others. Well balanced with brett and acid flavors blending
together. Funky earth flavor also present. A fairly strong palate coating
acidity. Also some lip coating acidity
Cantillion gueuze: Light acid aroma vs other Cantillions I have had. Foam
stand small. Tart, citric, lactic, acetic. Intense palate coating acidity.
Acidity appears to fade as it warms and balance improves overall. Palate has
some creaminess which is like diacetyl to me.
Mikes Gueuze-thing: Some funkiness, acidty supressed, some turnip, brussel
sprout like flavor. The flavors are all distinct and not blended. By itself
this is not a bad beer but when up against some great stuff it falls short.
Plata cleansing time:
Rochefort 8. Excellent caramel rummy flavor with lost of alcohol. clove and
spice really big. Not a lawn mower beer. But not cloying either.
hansens Kriek: Acid and brett balance in aroma. Also furity estery aroma in
there. Big cherry palate. Also has a big brett acid character in palate.
Very complex with vanilla type flavor. An excellent melding of flavors.
Timmermans Kriek: Cherry coke aroma. mild clean sourness, sweet, good foam.
Very tame beer with some brett and acid character in the background
Girardin Kriek: Cherry aroma, but not soda pop like. This cherry aroma does
not carry throuhg in the palate. More acid than Hansens and some tannic like
astringency Many brett, earthy, funky (word for the day) in the palate.
Fruit presence not as big as Hansens. A good example of a really bretty flavor
with some big fruit to provide balance. Not sweet.
Boon Kriek-Hand carried, pre-US import. Fruit, cherry aroma. Excellent balcne
between various aroma. Big cherry flavor with acidty and brett flaors to
provide a nice balance. I detect some pitty tannin like flavor. Nice
complexity. Excellent stuff
Boon MP Kriek: Psychodelic pink foam that does go away. the beer itself is
veryy red (red dye #2) Fruity aroma with some brett and acid. But this does
nto prepare the palate for what happens. VERY, Very dry, lingering
astringency. Very lactic. Attneuated to the limits. No real fruit in palate.
I think I have to taste this one again since I was so confused by what it
looked like smelled like and then tasted like.
Cantillion Kriek: dry acid aroma, lactic and acetic character, Another very
dry attneuated beer. Good old cantillion lip coating acidtity.
86 MP Framboise: Excellent fruit, ester aroma. Also a nice balance of brett
and acid in aroma. Fruit is very well blance not as big as hand-carried kreik.
Also the brett acid character are right in balance. Some lactic sournes witha
good deal of funky character. Very nice beer.
Mikes Framboise. Acid, fruit aroma. Very acid palate not quite to the extreme
of Cantillion though. Very little brett funky, aniaml like character.
Cantillion RdGam very dry lactic. Quick hint of vanilla at front of tongue
but fades quickly. Astringent and acid. typical cantillon product.
Then we had a bucnh of belgian beers and I quite taking notes :-) But we had
Mateen Trippel and it had a huge bubble gum tutty fruity aroma that I could
detect after all that lambic.
So overall the Hansens was excellent but so was the Boon MP Framboise. Also
this was an excellent example of the broad range of flavors in the lambic
style. It also made me question the ability to say one lambic is "better" than
another particulary in a competition. If I was judging these beers I would not
be able to say which was "best" based on the 50 point scoreing sheet. Funky
off flavors are a part of it and personal preference also plays a big part.
todd writes:
% >I certainly have not made any true pgueuze that is 95% old beer and 5%
% >new beer in a bottle.
%
% You're citing Boon's blending method. It should be pointed out that there
% are others.
Yea OK. 50:50 or whatever. Blending is still not a practice carried out by
the majority of plambic brewers.
%
% >And whetther or not a beer is slammed is a function of whether or not
% >the judges really know what lambics are all about.
%
% Phil's guidelines do take into account what a real (low carbonation)
% lambic should be like. Now whether even the most knowledgable are in a
% position to judge them is questionable, unless they have the practical
% experience of frequenting Brussels cafes. Right now, it seems that
% gueuze is a accepted as a lambic without fruit, but having carbonation.
% If competitions can't control for out of style original gravities, then
% they certainly aren't in a position to stipulate blended vs. unblended.
Again my point still is that based on this tasting I still think that the
broadness of the style is not understood by the majority of "judges" out there.
We have Hansens at one end, Cantiilion at another and Bellevue at another.
What constitutes a 45-50 point beer is debatable. Are you an acid head or a
sweet tooth. I bet MP Kriek would get slammed for being to dry and no fruit
etc.
%
% >Because IMHO none of us is making anything real close to the real
% thing.
%
% Tsk. Tsk. That old saw? You've made at least one great p-lambic. I
% think that we have to recognize variety and variability (lack of
% consistency) as a part of the genre.
REcognizing the variety and variability of the style is very important. But
one needs to at least have the beer fit roughly in those guidelines for it to
be considered good. Two groups of judges decided that I made beer that fit
within their perception of the sytle and what is "good". It is unfortunate
that the standards can not be set higher. Why should we accept the lowest
common denominator as a great beer. I can accept my beer as a unique american
style of beer but it in no real way is close in balance and complexity to
anything the Belgians are making. I still have much to learn and everytime I
think I have something figured out I get a reality check. O course it was good
to see Mike Sharp is having problems :-) :-) :-)
Norman writes and I reply to debate the point:
% For the purpose ofAHA National Competition guideline definitions, the
% difference beteen
% gueuze and lambic might simplistically be defined as *sparkling* and *still*.
But, but... How many judges are going to know what still lambic is supposed to
taste like. Unless you have been to Brussels you are SOL. The only other way
to taste still lambic is if you make your own. Unless specific judge training
is put in place I think this is going to be a hard style in pin point. Again
the "guidelines" are, I thought, supposed to represent what the classic example
is like. In this category "simplistic" isn't going to work IMNHO.
Brain asks:
% 2. Are there any other sources beside Frozen Wort theat supply Curacao (sp?)
% Orange?
California and Arizona grow lots of Seville oranges :-) Also Brussesl and
Curacao :-o
%
% Lastly a general note. Thanks to those who helped edit my Brewing with Lactic
% Acid Bacteria article. Much to my dismay I have found out that Zymurgy has
% scheduled it for Spring of 1996. This will give me time to perfect my recipes
% and make using L.A.B. user-friendly.
Gee only takes a year to an article in Zymurgy. Of course we have to have
space for the real articles :-)
%
% On a research note... I have found that several of my Lactobacillus are hop
% sensitive to even 5 IBU. I was under the general impression that Pedio were
% more prone to hop sensitivity than Lactobacillus, but it appears to be strain
% dependent as opposd to genus dependent.
%
So do like us Cancer Researchers and create resistant strains. I've done ti
with pedio.
Teddy cries:
% Has anyone else experienced a plambic that was totally "dead"? This stuff
% was 10 months old, and it hadn't changed in either appearance or flavor for
% the last 2 or 3 months...
Well if the culture is not viable or conditons are not right well it won't
grow. I was amazed at Mike's beaver beer that had no acid or brett character
yet he claims to hav put the right bugs in there.
%
% It's been four days, so I'm starting to worry about the berries possibly
% going moldy or something nasty like that happening.
%
If the acidity is high and the alcohol up there you should have no problems.
Did you blindly put all this fruit into something without tasting it first. At
this point taste it to see if it is even remotely sour. Get some more brett
and epdio if need be and add them. Chalk it up to experience :-) Big help
huh.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 95 11:06:24 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: 1991 Liefmans Kriekbier
I popped the cork out of a bottle of 1991 Liefmans Kriekbier the other
night. It does not taste like a 4-5 year old beer, that's for sure.
(I asked before in this forum, but didn't get an answer, whether the
date on the cork is the bottling date or brewing date.) I could not
detect any obvious signs of aging. I imagine that the fruit character
had diminished a bit, but it was still full of cherries.
Tasting notes:
Aroma has a leathery note, but is mostly cherries. Black cherries, in
fact. A wonderful, fill-your-nose, cherry aroma. But there's just
enough complexity from the fermentation "wierdness" to keep it from
cloying.
Color is clear, deep, red-brown, with very little (pink) head.
Flavor is not quite up to the aroma, but is still very good.
Sweet-tart up front, with that leathery note again, very low
bitterness (good), and a satisfying cherry flavor. The cherry is not
as dominant in the flavor as it was in the aroma. It's got a moussy,
tingly carbonation, and a long fruity finish.
Overall, an excellent beer, and one I'd be delighted to repeat the
experience with (too bad it was the last bottle in stock). I wonder
how the current bottlings will fare 4 years from now?
=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 95 08:27:10 PST
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: Seeking DeKonick yeast...
Text item: Text_1
Has anyone brought back some of the DeKonick yeast? I know you can get
it by going to the brewpub in Antwerp and buying a shot glass of it.
Unfortunately I ran out of time to make it to the brewpub last summer
when there.
thanks
martin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 08:53:54 -0800 (PST)
From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl)
Subject: Just One Little Nit ...
I just can't help myself. In Lambic Digest #530, C. R. Saikley
corrected a misapprehension by Todd Gierman:
> Sugar was added to Faro at the time of consumption, not a few days before.
> This may have been because Faro was a beer made from second runnings, and
> thus quite astringent ...
>From what I've been able to discover, you're really describing "mars,"
CR. The first mash using a given grist and hops was called "lambic,"
with subsequent mashes called "mars." The two were blended at point
of sale to produce faro. All of the above were served with sugar
and a pestle-like device, to sweeten the lambic to taste. The best
descriptions I've seen of this process are in "Les Memoires de Jef
Lambic" (La Technique Belge, Brussels, undated), a real treat for
any lambic aficionado who reads French. The eponymous Jef Lambic
was (appropriately enough) the son of a lambic brewer, and grew up
in and around his father's brewery in Brussels. As he lived from
1860-1951, he enjoyed what's now often thought of as lambic's Golden
Age, as well as two World Wars, which as he never mentions them, he
possibly didn't notice. The book is an old man laughing in his beer,
describing life in Brussels and especially in the cafes of his youth.
Though it's not intended to be a technical text, it's nevertheless
filled with useful information, and is a "good read."
- Martin
= Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning Pacific*Bell =
= malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) =
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 20:52:00 +0000
From: "Lee Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject: Pulled a boner
Okay, who was I corresponding with from OKC about the competition and
BJCP?
I was replying to your message and I think I deleted the message
before sending it.
Please reply and let me know if it made it or not.
Now back to our show..........
- --
-Lee Bussy | The 4 Basic Foodgroups.... |
leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women! |
Wichita, Kansas | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb |
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 22:12:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Re: Hanssens address, Faro and Koch
Mike makes the request:
>Help! I need the address for the Hanssens's brewery. I know its in Dworp
>(I think) but I need the _full_ address. I thought I had it somewhere but
>I can't find it in any of my books.
>Should anyone have it, the name of the owner would be helpful too.
>I'm sure its <something> Hanssen, but I don't know what the <something> is.
Well, you've probably gotten several replies, but just in case here it is:
Gueuzestekerij Hanssens
Vroenenbostraat 8
1512 Dworp
Tel: 02 380 3133
[sorry, no fax #]
You might try asking for Meneer Hanssen. No doubt "Mr." will do in a pinch.
Oh, BTW, they apparently use cherry juice for the kriek instead of whole
cherries.
C.R. counters:
>(Bzzzzzzzzzzt. [another annoying buzzer sound :-]
Okay. I had that coming, either way :-)
>Sugar was added to Faro at the time of consumption, not a few days before.
>This may have been because Faro was a beer made from second runnings, and
>thus quite astringent. I'd tend to agree with Jim, that most pgueuze is
>primed, bottled plambic.
Okay this is one viewpoint, here's another from Tim Webb (CAMRA):
Faro is the traditional name for draught lambic to which
sugar is added for refermentation. The principle is that
if the yeast gets a second wind and a vigorous refermentation,
it produces a sweetish beer with a sparkle
In recent years the term has been corrupted and is applied
to bottled, pasteurized, sweetened lambics, generally of
little character. Cantillon sometimes supply the real thing
to some Brussels cafes.
Jackson's twist on it would seem to support both versions. Guinard
defines it as "blended young lambic made from moderate gravity wort and
sweetened with candy sugar."
Considering that most p-lambic brewers are adding sugar to young lambic
(very few make it past a year) with hope of getting a little
refermentation in the bottle, calling it "Faro" is not as far-fetched as
it may have seemed.
>I wasn't really thinking of Koch's ridiculous use of the moniker Cranberry
>Lambic. I believe the brewers in this forum are much truer to the style and
>spirit of lambic traditions.
Yes, that intention came through clearly. I was merely thinking the
ironic thought that Sam Adams may have been their initiation into
"lambic" culture. I know that I tried it well ahead of many of the
"true" lambics, but was always skeptical even before I knew better
(honest). DeTroch's Chapeau line seems to take the concept to new
levels of ridiculousness. I am not apologizing for the shameless marketing
practices of you know who.
I have been wondering: who are the "real" lambic drinkers in Belgium and
what are their preferences. Most local beer drinkers in Europe tend to
display a zeal and passion for their preferred brewer that goes well
beyond the "tastes great, less filling" debate. It was interesting and
amusing to read the reaction of the Pils drinkers. Any further insight
into the sociology of lambic drinking in Belgium?
Todd
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
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