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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #558 (March 14, 1995)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 00:30:31 -0700
Lambic Digest #558 Tue 14 March 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Belgian Ale Ferment Temps ("Manning Martin MP")
Rajotte corrections (bickham)
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Date: 13 Mar 1995 11:51:10 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Re: Belgian Ale Ferment Temps
One of the things which was discussed extensively at the SoB was the issue of
reportedly high fermentation temperatures in Belgian ales. This has been
discounted by several promenent amateur brewers, based on personal
experience. Pierre Rajotte insisted that he had seen several cases where
high temps were used, and this is in agreement with comments made by (I
think) Jackson and others saying that some ferments were at unusually high
temps.
The consensus was that the experience of some, where high fermentation temps
were detrimental, was likely due to the particular yeast strain (Wyeast
Belgian). Supporting data were presented by Eric Toft (formerly of Lamote
Brewery in Mechelen, Belgium), showing that high temps were indeed employed
there. The selection of available yeasts has improved, and there are now
some available which perform well at elevated temperatures. (Others who
attended may check my memory on this)
MPM
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 19:07:32 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Rajotte corrections
This is kinda long, but the digest should be able to handle it. From
what I read in the latest letters to editor in zymurgy, Rajotte is
pretty helpful in giving one on one advice and he can be reached at
the address and phone number that accompanies the ad for his book
on yeast culturing. I know that someone here took the time to type
all of these comments or at least convert it from a floppy, but I lost
that part of the posting. Whoever that was - thanks!
Cheers, Scott
- --- Rajotte Comments and Corrections, Cut here ---
Review and comments of Belgian Ales. Answer to the questions.
When I set out to write the book, the general idea was to give brewers and beer
amateurs not quite familiar with Belgian beer styles, guidelines on sorting
out the various ale styles brewed in Belgium. Also considered was an
overview of past and present brewing techniques. Then with appropriate
recipes make it practical and easy for novice brewers to a least get
close to the desired style on a first attempt at brewing it.
Previous to that time, there had been nothing at all published on Belgian
ales with respect to fabrication. Of all the brewing books published in
this century, in Belgium, only two dealt with top fermentation. The
first one "La brasserie de fermentation haute" deals with ale brewing
and was published at the turn of the century. It deals mainly with
the brewing of regular gravity ale. The second one the "Verlinden",
published in 1933 deals a bit in the production of white beers
and a few higher gravity beers that were starting then to emerge.
Since then all the brewing text books published in Belgium (see reference in
Belgian Ale) deal wither exclusively or for the major part with bottom
fermentation. In other words the subject is how to make a good "Pils".
None of them give out any information on major topics such as refermentation in the bottle or the usage of spices and herbs and the usage of sugar. All
the information that was gathered for Belgian Ale came from Belgian breweries,
brew masters and university researchers. There was no "budget money"
available for expenses on research, analyses, or fact gathering. Because
there are over 100 breweries in Belgium they could not all be visited
or contacted. The majority of those approached came out very openly with
their brewing processes and techniques, Some were very secretive.
After I had written the text it was reviewed by professional brewers
in Canada, the USA and in Belgium, and other knowledgeable persons
for comments and corrections. Every one of them was very positive about
it some were even enthusiastic. It was only then submitted to
"Brewers Publications". They in turn had it reviewed by many other
persons. I personally spent more than three hours on the phone going
over many aspects and corrections for the book.
Finally a year after I had submitted the manuscript the book was published.
Since then the book has been extremely well received. The first edition
is now sold out and a reprint is coming. I regularly get letters and
phone calls from many brewers regarding various details or comments on
the recipes. All these people have been unanimous in saying that finally
they are getting the taste they were looking for. Of course the yeast
choice is still very limited. I have also tasted many beers made from
the recipes or variations and I must admit that the brewers are doing it right.
>From all these contacts I must say that the purpose aimed, with writing
this book, has been fully met. Of course there will always be brewers who
want more details. Now is the time for them to start experimenting. This
is the only way to reach new goals.
Last summer I had an opportunity to visit the Laboratory to the Universite'
Catholique de Louvain la Neuve. I learned then, that most of the brewers in
Belgium have contracts with them or other brewing schools. Under these
contracts the university will perform various analyses or tests for
the brewers. They will even help them in refining or formulating new
recipes. This is a great help to every brewer, big or small. This is also
a reason that specific details relating to one particular beer are
considered trade secrets and asking about them unethical. If you ask
about help in formulating a recipe similar to Duvel they will say;" We are
sorry, we already have a relationship with them" Of course this type of unique
relationship between science and practice is quite evident in the many unique
beers crafted in Belgium.
In answering some of the comments I will add further notes on many general
aspects.
Presently the first printing of Belgian Ale is sold out. Along with Dena
Nishek of Brewers Publications we have gone over all the errors that were
reported by various astute observers.
Following briefly are numerous corrections that will be made in the second
printing, or comments that will be added.
Here are my comments or needed corrections:
Page 3
Whitbread and Bass of the type brewed for Belgium are to be found in
most Belgian cafes. The cafe might not carry both brands but usually
one or the other. There are so many cafes in Belgium that if you don't
find them in one just go to the cafe next door. As a matter of fact
they are much easier to find and more generally available than many of
the well known Belgian beers described in the book. As far as England
goes these beers are not usually available there being too strong for
the British. They are used to drinking 1.036-.040 and these are of
the 1.060 caliber. The British would qualify them as extra strong
premium beers. Acidity: this refers to the total acidity and is usually
written as total acidity as lactic acid. I would write this as:
0.2% Acidity as lactic acid.
Page 47 this one had me confused from day one. I never submitted the photo
and I never wrote the caption. I have no clue what was intended here.
I refers to a way of proceeding and Lindeman who is a Lambic brewer. I has
no reference to my text. I would replace it with something else or have the
photographer come up with a meaningful description of the equipment shown.
A new series of photos has been submitted for review and selection.
Page 47 and all this chapter. When I wrote this I intended this chapter to
be more or less a dialogue. I was not careful with quotation marks so I did
not put any. However when I talked with the text corrector, when reviewing
the manuscript this chapter did not seem to cause him any problem of
comprehension. He even asked me if I had used a tape recorder to record
the conversation.
So here is a list of all the paragraph that should be in quotation marks.
p82 "My advice.......was hard"
"All the beers...was not clean"
"The best way ...(all the way to page 84) dark brown candi sugar"
p85 "Good beer.......what is in it"
" This means...17.5x10 6 cells per ml"
p87 "I like to ferment .. its long voyage"
" The most important.....p88.....five gallons(20L)"
page 89 I think this should read: Brewing barley wine is an art in itself, but
different than brewing high gravity Belgian specialy beers.
Other errors noted: p73 bottom Heat loss and not Hear loss.
Many errors had also slipped through in the recipes, mostly in conversion
quantities on ingredients. These will all be corrected
Comments for Al Korzonas
I really appreciated his comments. I will not go into each notes that
pertains to typographical or linguistic comments. See Above.
Note on water p22.
Although what you mention about alcohol and low pH is true you
still must start with a boiled wort if you want to achieve the actual
fermentation with a certain degree of success.
In the middle ages domestic water as such was a rare and expensive commodity.
There were no public distribution systems and water was sold by various
salesmen or peddlers. They would go to rivers gather water and bring it to
cities for resale. People believed that water that come from rivers was
better than water from wells because it was kind of rejuvenated by the
sun and the fresh air. In those days wells on farms wrer
thoroughly polluted. Brewers on the other hand on account of the
quantity of water needed for brewing, had quite often to resort to wells.
As far a boiling water to drink true it will be safe to drink but frankly
for those who have tried it the taste is not very good. On the other
hand boiling the wort was always done to sterlize it. Otherwise,
fermentation would probably not even start and secondly various disease
could be propagated this way. I once fermented wort that had not been
boiled just to try. The beer fermented out OK but the taste was nothing
to say lets do another one. I think that both facts are here important.
Boiling the wort made it safe to start fermentation an assured a good
start. Brewers who have experienced bad yeast know what happens even with
boiled wort. Lets not forget that not so long ago brewers would not brew
during summer on account of the heat. Although they boiled their wort
the slow cooling would get it infected again and result in bad fermentation.
After the beer had been fermented the decrease in acidity made it keep
longer and prevented the occurrence of harmful bacteria. As a final
remark beer is much more interesting beverage than just plain boiled water.
pp26
The trappist from Netherlands I did not mention them because I really do
not know under whose legislation they fall under. First of all the are
the most commercial of all the Trappist brewers. They brew for selling
under their own name: Trappistenbierbrouwerj De Schaapskooi they also
brew (Basically the same beers as above and also refermented) under
the name: Koningshoeven for the Dutch wing of the British Allied
breweries and they also brew under the name La Trappe for export to Belgium.
These are usually filtered and pasteurised.
They also brew for Chimay the Chimay Blanche
So in as much that what I wrote in the book pertained to the Belgian
situation I omitted them for the sake of clarity.
pg. 29
I had one beer in mind when I wrote this, the "Villers Tripel". I have
on many occasion tasted it and it has always had a real strong
yeast bitterness aftertaste. This brew has been brewed by various
brewers on and off so I have no comment on current samples.
pg.35
Generous means that when you use low bitterness hops you put in
greater quantity than when you use high alpha acid ones. The Maes
brewery in Waarloos uses only Saaz hops. When I was there the alpha
of the Saaz was 2.7%. Their beer is pleasantly bitter, So in their case
they use a "generous" meaning quite a bit to get their bitterness. An
advantage of using lots of hops is that it helps in getting a real clear
wort. I does give a lot of surface for the proteins to cling to. I
myself try to use exclusively hops with low bitterness value. Of the
total hop content in a recipe I never use more than 25% of hops with a
higher than 5% acid value.
pg51
Witbier acidity. A brewer mentioned to me that Witbier is unpleasant
with an acidity below 3.9 When it is freas it is usually above
that range. However when the beer gets older it develops more acidity
on account of bacteria's mostly unwanted, This is very true in beers
shipped to North America.
pp 57
Here again their acidity varies. I must say that when I wrote the book
there were absolutely no analyses of these beers or white beers
available. I have never been able to find any. So I had to resort in
asking brewers wo made them, (their figures vary quite a bit) and I
also asked Mr. G. VanGeluwe, who is a retired Belgian brew master with
over forty years of brewing experience and a chemist, to give me ball
park fiqures based on his experience. The only technical piece of
information that I could find on this came from the Universite Catholique
de Louvain la Neuve. It discusses beer in relation to acidity. I
finally summarizes by mentioning that there has been very little written
or published on the subject (meaning specialy ales) and that this is
a good feild for research and investigation.
pg 60
When I submitted the manuscript the book on Lambic was not yet published.
pg 68
I contacted four malsters in Belgium. Only DeWolf-Cosyns answered. According
to their literature they are the biggest caramel malt manufacturer
in the world.
pg99
On the references to oxygen and refermentation:
1-Development of Fine Draft, the Effect of a Trace of Yeast Contained in a New
Beer in Maintaining the Freash Flavor of Beer
By Yuji Takahashi & Al
MBAA Tech Quart. Vol. 28,pp60-66 1991
2- Refermentation in bottles and kegs: a rigorous approach.
G> Derdelinxckx
Brauwelt Intnl. summer 1992
Contact me for more info...
pg100
I always bottle this way. I have bottled beer years ago that were fine for
a year of two and that finally became overwhelmed with the acid taste after
more than three years.
pg 109
This effect is variable. Sometimes the effect is all there after two
weeks. Sometimes it takes longer. It depends on many factors the most
important one being the age of the spices themselves. This is a domain
that is really personal. You have to try many ways and find what suits
you best. I know people that will refuse to drink a beer made with spices.
pg 126
In 1990 I was in the Check republic, in the area known as Moravia, where
I visited the brewery that makes the beer that I have the most enjoyed ever
: the "Cerna Hora" Unfortunately the beer is made in an ill equipped
brewery and does not travel well. They use exclusively a hop, the
"Tersiche" which grows in an area north of their brewery. It is a
low bitterness high aromatic hop. I believe it is not exported.
I brought back a few pounds and wished I could lay my hands on more. I
would imagine that Saaz would be a good substitute.
pg136
Maredsous 6 Green border on label
Maredsous 8 Red border on label
Maredsous9 white border on label
Maredsous10 Black border on label
(Ihaven't seen one in a while so it might be different.)
Note on Cellis White.
These beers came out after the book had been printed. I have tasted it on
two occasions. It does not quite compare with the original Hoegaarden
recipe. I am sure the alcohol content is below 4%. The first bottle
contained live yeast in it. I had one recently and although it came
directly from Austin the yeast in it was dead which leads me to believe
that it is now pasteurised. The recipe has bee formulated for the
American "Texan" palate. It is though extremely refreshing and pleasant.
I believe it could use more body, Of course the original Hoegaarden does not
quite make it anymore. I had it last year in Belgium. Now that it has
been taken over by Interbrew, the marketing department has taken over.
Gone is the aroma of orange and coriander. The beer is now quite neutral
in taste although still refreshing. They have geared to taste to please
the drinker that does not like beer anyway but that might be tempted by
something new. They have a great commercial success with it.
Answer to Conn Copas
Your first questions on blending old and new brews, mashing with unmalted
cereals and effect on conditioning technique would require a whole book to be
completely answered.
I have not been able to come up with any written info on blending except
that it is done. I have done it simply by letting a beer age in
secondary one year in a cellar. Then I simply mixed it wiith a younger
brew and bottled the mixture with an addition of fresh yeast. The
result was a mixture of old beer taste with fresh brewed beer. Gouden
Carolus is the type of taste you should expect. If you let the beer age
in bottles in a cellar and you taste it now and then you will truly get the
feeling for evolving taste. Of course you reside in England so it would
be very easy for you to visit brewers who performs this type of blending.
Het Anker in Mechelen"Gouden Carolus" use to do it. Now that they are part
of Riva I don't know. Unmalted cereals, We use in our Wit Bier at
Le Cheval Blanc a mixture of 60 % malt and 40% raw wheat with no
problem. The resulting beer is truly white.
For conditioning technique on flavor profile this is a subject of much
research at Universite Catholique de Louvain la Neuve doctoral thesis are
being written on that. The paper by Guy Derdelinckx mentioned previously
is the best info so far. I came out a few months after the book was
printed. As far as having not tried things myself this does not pertain
to the info in the book, True I don't brew Oud Bruin every week. Just
once every two to three years. The way I do it is as follows. First
I decide to do it when I drink a Wit Bier that is aged somewhat, has
a pleasant acid tang and still has live yeast. Then I culture the
yeast, bacterias and alll and ferment an Oud Bruin wort. A quick
secondary and then bottling. Usually it is a bit rough after two weeks
but it improves with age tremendously . My tast and interest in beers
are too varied to just want to become a specialist in one style. My
main interest in brewing is to create different tasting beers whatever
the style they may be. Then when they have been created comes the most
pleasant part: drinking them. By the way I brew a lot during the year.
My yearly output is around 1500 liters. Of course I brew with friends and
we share the beer.
Comment on candi sugar. The comment on fructose comes from Malting and
Brewing Science pp 241. I refer to its effect in priming solutions. Of
course in a traditionally fermented beer the fructose will ferment.
But as mentioned in M & B Science "invert sugar(with contains fructose)
may confer particular flavors and characters as well as color to the final
product" But there are also a lot of beers in Belgium that use candi and
or invert sugar that are either pasteurised or sterile filtered. Also
there are two major companies in Belgium that specialize in the
fabrication of custom solutions for different brewers. None would
give specifics. This being considered a client supplier relationship.
On the commercial scene 15C is high for an aging cellar. Even major brewers
in England are going lower than that to get their beer out quickly.
In ale breweries that I have visited they usually try to get it down
to a least 10C. But there are some that keep it higher but they are
more an exception than the rule. This is true that the dominant strain
will take over. This info is for people who do not have a microscope
to check out their yeast . I have on occasions found bottled
conditioned beers with a strain mixture,. Of course you do not know
if the strain that is predominant is the main fermenter or the bottle
fermenter. I have since writing the book found out that some Belgian
brewers actually use bread yeast as a bottle conditioning strain.
So because you do not know what is in it, it is necessary to really
build up the number of cells to at least get a fair chance at a
good fermentation. But as a rule I don't recommend that brewers try to
ferment mixed strain. Quite often it leads to dumped batches.
When I brew I usually make up at least 250 liters(65 US gallons) of
wort. This wort is fermented in two main batches of about 100 liters
each. The rest gets fermented with different strains in 18 liters
(5Gals.) batches.
although it is the same wort, very seldom do we end up with the same final
gravity at bottling time. Some yeast do not like crystal malt, or
sometimes there was not enough at pitching time, etc. This is where
you can get surprises in the long run. Some batches of Whitbread yeast
have been notorious for that. Although technically speaking S.
Diastaticus will go down the most it is mostly encountered in
bottom fermenting breweries. In a beer that has not been fully
attenuated any foreign yeast whether it be wild of a stray brewing yeast
can result in overprimed bottle.
Tim Fahrner of Duvel yeast.
As far as I know Duvel is fermented with different strains in different
fermenting tanks. They are then blended at bottling. This is why
the taste of Duval has changed a lot over the years. 7 to 9 years ago
it was a very individual brew who had a real distictive and unique taste.
This uniqueness has been slowly removed by using less and less of the brew
made with one of the strains. Last year I was discussing this with
Guy Derdelinckzx who has worked extensively with Duvel on refining the
brew/ He then told me that may be they had gone to far in the no taste
zone. Years ago I fermented with a yeast that someone had given me that
was supposed to be the Duvel yeast. I never did get a Duvel taste but I
still got an excellent beer.
Martin Lodahl
Comment on chocolate malt. See the note on the quotation mark that have been
added to the revised version. The comment on chocolate malt are from
Pierre Gobron. Although you may have your opinion I tend to agree with
Gobron on this. In some beers you want the color of chocolate malt but
not the taste. A successful commercial brewer is entitled to his opinions
The oxygenations level
My info is from "Progress in industrial microbiology vol 19" A current
approach to brewery fermentation. Elsevier 1984 page 147 gives a table
giving the levels of dissolved oxygen that are possible with air or pure
oxygen at different specific gravities. A must reading for any brewer.
Jim Liddil
Someone as told me that you can find real candi sugar in Arabic supermarket.
A friend of mine form Toronto found some recently. I have not been able
to check this out personally. The word candi in French come from the word
candij in Aribic. So this may make sense. You can use pure cane a sugar
as a substitute or in a bind glucose.
To all the persons disappointed that there was no blow by blow or bug by
bug or yeast by yeast recipe for Oud Bruin, the reason is very simple.
First this is not the kind of beer that you can do right the first time.
I takes a lot of patience, time, and effort. I have not been able to
find any technical liturature on it from any source in Belguim. The
only info was from UC Louvain who gave me a paper that they had
prepared. There conclusion was. Nothing has been written on this.
This is a good field for research. So this is a good opportunity for
anybody that wants to make his doctorate thesis on this to go ahead.
Although I ferment a batch every two to three years this is not the
kind of beer that attracts me like it seems to attract others. I am
sure that Brewers Publication would like to publish a book on just that
style if they find the right author. I am sure that many of you have
a lot to say on crafting this type of beer. So lets go, get your
keyboard goingand go for it, and let the world share your knowledge.
- --- end of Rajotte corrections ---
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
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