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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #506 (December 09, 1994)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 00:30:14 -0700
Lambic Digest #506 Fri 09 December 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Acid formation (bickham)
The World is Flat (Jim Liddil)
Brett culturing (Jeffrey Ziehler)
Re: Brett/Pedio/Brits (Todd Gierman)
Other Internet Lists?? (Alan123)
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 08:53:32 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Acid formation
> From: mole at netcom.com (Aaron Birenboim)
> Subject: brett. &^ lacto
>
> 2) I do not think the questioning of pedio in lambic is unreasonable.
> I think that we all agree that it is OK in lambic, but might another
> beast be better for acid formation? Lactobacilli? Other bacteria?
> What does Kohelecra (sp?) produce?
The experts can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Kleockera produces
mainly acetic acid, but is alcohol/pH sensitive and won't survive into
later fermentation stages. As for lactobacillus, they do provide the
sourness, but not the dryness required for lambics. For example, my
wits ferment down to 1.012 with an ale yeast, and then drop another 2
gravity points after Lacto. Delbrueckii is pitched. Now 1.010 is dry by
most ale standards, but it doesn't come close to the 1.005 terminal
apparent gravity of my last pLambic. I'm sure some of Mike Sharp's
and Jim Liddil's efforts have been much drier.
Rob is right when he mentions that pedio is one of the toughest bacteria
to remove from your brewery, but the same arguments hold for lactobacillus.
On the scale I brew, I think the best solution is to keep carboys
and bottling equipment separate for lambics and/or wits that have
either pediococcus or lactobacillus. While this may be expensive on
the commercial level, just read Fal Allen article in Brewing Techniques
on the difficulty trying to remove a pedio contamination from a
commercial brewery (Pike Place).
scott
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 8:26:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: The World is Flat
I thought I had you all fished in. I thought I could convince you that the
world is flat and that there is spontaneous generation. :-) Then Rob says:
% Firstly, thanks to all for the lively and fact filled dicussion
% that has begun on Pedio/Brett and friends.
% The off bottle of Wets I tried is absolutely crawling with
% fast growing yeasts. They appear to need oxygen (I covered
% one Petri dish with parrafin oil in a hopelessly pathetic
% way of simulating anaerobic conditions and nothing has grown in
% 5 days). So much for excessive Brett (though that may come along soon)
I don't find this so surprising since not much can grow in fermented lambic.
Either acetobacter or yeast that can handle the alcohol, low oxygen and low pH.
% Jim, you say the KUL results imply that the hardness in
% lambics comes from Brett. How so? And which Theses? (Not
% a jab, I want to check these as well).
I was full of shit basically. Most of the hardness does come from pedio. And
Guinard mentions how at one time brwers tried to cool the owrt in order to
reduce the hardness devloping so extreme. but BFD what used to be done and
what we do now are not the same. Go ahead tyr to recreat histarical recipes
(oops historical). The fact is for the last 100 years there has been pedio in
lambic. I want wild beer with some acid not cherry cola ala lindemann's.
Also lactobaccilus can be important in lambic. It just seems the brwery that
most of the KUL studies have been done at don't have much of it.
AAron writes:
% 1) I have several brett cultures which produce copius gas. (At least
% i hope that all 3 are brett!!) Creamy foamy head... certainly
% not. But shake the jar and they out-gas for sure.
And next you are going to tell me you have had these checked for morphology,
growth on cycloheximide, pseudomycellia devlopment on corn meal agar, and acid
production on caco3 agar, right. :-)
%
% 2) I do not think the questioning of pedio in lambic is unreasonable.
% I think that we all agree that it is OK in lambic, but might another
% beast be better for acid formation? Lactobacilli? Other bacteria?
% What does Kohelecra (sp?) produce?
%
Kloeckera does not do mcuh but fermeent glucose and excrete some proteases,
according to guinard. Besides acid one wnat sthe other funky flavor compunds
that pedio produce to add to the complexity of the beer. If you want bland acid
beer use a burette.
% P.S. I can't keep my pedio alive? What have I done? If its so
% hard to get rid of, why do I have such a hard time with it?
You need to prvide it nutrients. Once again class :-) Pediococcus is a very
fastidious organism. It grows slowly and has complex nutritonal requirements.
Plain wort does not have all the necessary nutrients for longer term maintance
of the these organsisms. Pedio grows in the yeast layer in fermenters etc.
There it gets its extra nutrients from the yeast and trub. The pedio require
lots of b vitamins of which yeast is a rich source. Pedio can adapt though
and that is how they become hop tolerant. So by some MRS for maintenance. Or
use wort and add some yeast extract. If you want to go the cheap route you can
use dried bakers yeast, but it is largely insoluble so after boiling you may
want to decant off the junk. Find a friendly microbiologist
% 2) Observation: The white starchiness extracted seemed to go away (mostly)
% in my boil. My wort was mostly clear. Is this bad?
You simply gelatanized the starch by boiling.
%
% 3) 3-4 year old hops may not be enough. I used 8 oz. 3-4 year old hops
% (they had been stored in paper bags) for 11 gal. It was bitter.
% Not bitter for a "regular" beer, but still noticibly so. Even if you
% have well aged hops, I'd suggest giving them some sun-baithing,
% of the "Lohdal" oven treatment.
I found my wort to be bitter after boiling but then after a month it all
disappears. I think alot of the bitter compunds precipitate out on yeast and
prtein stuff. this is evne using 3 ounces in 5 gallons.
Well at least someone had something to say worth reading :-)
%
% Rant, Rave, %$#! at & Let Biodiveristy Rule your Beverages
% Revolt again the tyranny of U.C Davis
% Drink something with weird bugs in it
%
% Paul T-
%
% I misplaced my journal to find out the timing, but I distinctly remember the
% GWKent Brett and the Wyeast Brett cultures producing foamy heads. Not tight
% fine white foam, but rather a more tannish foam with larger sustained bubbles.
% The Boon Gueze I cultured (more than a year ago?) also had a similiar foamy
% head. In 8 hours? I don't think so -- more like 2-3 days.
%
% Andrew
Again you are assuming that what you bought is what the company says it is.
You have to take their word for it. Boon gueeze ahs saccharomyces in large
amounts :-) did the starter taste like regualr yeast?
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:11:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeffrey Ziehler <ziehler at post.its.mcw.edu>
Subject: Brett culturing
Just a thought as I was sitting here reading the troubles of Brett
culturing and aerobes interfering thereof. Has anyone tried culturing
Brett in a candle jar? Or is this generally deemed overkill?
For the non-microbiologists out there: inocculated media goes in large
glass jar, light candle, place lit candle in jar, cap tightly, burning
candle scavenges O2 then goes out.
Jeffrey Ziehler ziehler at post.its.mcw.edu
waiting for the clu- phenotype to be a target for gene therapy.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 17:40:19 -0500
From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: Re: Brett/Pedio/Brits
Rob Thomas writes:
>And, again, I'll try and explain the obviously generalised
>and often downright wrong statement that 18th and 19th C
>British methods were that same as lambics.
I don't think that it's any big stretch of the imagination to say that
early British beers suffered the same "afflictions" as modern lambics. If
you could go back to the 15th and 16th centuries, you would probably get
English ales that very closely resembled lambics due to considerable
contamination. At that time, ales were not hopped, distinguishing them
from beer, which was. Ropiness and smoky flavors were a problem.
Interestingly, "foxy" beers (and wines) were ones that had soured during
storage and were not favored (I guess). I think the big difference here is
that British brewers took measures over time to rid themselves of these
problems, whereas lambic brewers just worked with what was there.
I wrote:
>% The turbid mash is probably important for producing Brett character in
>% that it results in higher extraction of polyphenols from husks (does it
>% not?) in addition to starch. Brettanomyces has the ability to convert
>% these to even more aromatic compounds such as 4-vinyl guaiacol and
>% 4-ethyl phenol.
And Jim who apparently reads Descartes while quaffing p-lambic:
>I think, therefore I am :-)
Oh, I get it. This is the polite and learned way to say "NO DUH," huh?
>So you are saying lambic is a complex chemical soup :-)
Well, beer is a complex chemical soup and I guess lambic is more so. But
more to the point, I was trying to say that the turbid mash (or a variation
thereof) and Brett encourage the usage of one another. That is to say,
Brett turns this pathetic, lousy mash into something drinkable (I mean do
you want to drink a 1020-30 terminal gravity, starch-laden, tannic
beverage?). In turn, this mash is still used with the idea that it will
enhance Brett character. I know, nothing new, but I think that it gets
lost sometimes.
Like I said before, (Hegel not withstanding) this process doesn't seem to
be one of "should" vs. "should not." It is more of a Taoist process: it
just is. Relieve your Western mind of the "hows" and "why's" and enjoy the
fruits of your labor, Grasshopper :-)
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 00:33:44 -0500
From: Alan123 at aol.com
Subject: Other Internet Lists??
I am doing basic homebrews now having just started. This Lambic list may be
beyond my current expertise. Can someone forward me addresses for other
beer-related discussion lists?
Thanks in advance!!
Alan Gordon
Alan123 at aol.com
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End of Lambic Digest
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