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Lambic Digest #0572
From postmaster at lance.colostate.edu Thu Mar 30 03:48:08 1995
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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #572 (March 30, 1995)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 00:30:20 -0700
Lambic Digest #572 Thu 30 March 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
HELP TO FIND BREWING GOODS (Ramon Valero Crespo)
Re: Flanders Red (James Caldwell)
beglian ale yeasts (Jay Hersh)
Brett and "horseyness" (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Recent Belgian experiences (Mark Gryska)
Those yeast guys ("Andrew R. Ruggles")
Re: Lambic Digest #571 (March 29, 1995) (Kelly Jones)
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
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Phil Seitz' series on Brewing Belgian Beer is available; the index
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 12:50:39 +0200
From: rvc at tid.es (Ramon Valero Crespo)
Subject: HELP TO FIND BREWING GOODS
Does anybody know where can i find/buy/order brewing goods (malt extracts, ho
hops, yeast, ....) in Europe (preferably in Spain).
Thanks in advance
Direct e-mail OK
Ramon Valero Crespo (e-mail: rvc at tid.es)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 05:34:11 -0800
From: JimCald at ix.netcom.com (James Caldwell)
Subject: Re: Flanders Red
Todd Steele Wrote:
>
>I am in the planning stages of brewing (hoppfully) an Alexander
Rodenbach
>like brew. Curent thoughts are to use Head Start yeast culture
#321(flanders
>red) and #333 (lactobacillus "flanderii") lactic culture for the
ferment.
>
//snip//
>
> 20 IBU Styian Goldings hops
I have done what you propose, twice. The lactobacillus "flanderii"
strain is somewhat hop sensitive. On my first attempt, I innoculated
hopped wort (about 18 IBU) and the lactic pooped out at pH 4.5 (just
barely sour). My second attempt involved pitching the culture into
unhopped wort, lactic fermenting to pH 3.1, and then boiling again with
hops before pitching the yeast.
The second batch is going to be bottled tonight, and from preliminary
tastes of the wort, I am in the ballpark for a good Flanders red.
>of cheeries (french oak wine cask) when fermentation compleate - age in
cask
>for 6-8 weeks - rack off cheeries into glass let settle untill clear e
>bottling.
I don't think Rodenbach has cherries, but the recipe sounds interesting
nonetheless ;-).
>any comments - sugestions are welcome - direct Email OK - results will
be
>posted - wtsteele at aol.com (Todd Steele)
- --
Jim Caldwell (Owings, MD--JimCald at ix.netcom.com)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:30:55 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at x.org>
Subject: beglian ale yeasts
I just recently made an excellent triple from the yeast cultured out of a
bottle of Blanche des Bruges. It took about 3 days to start, then I worked it
up in gravity in the starter. First starter 1.030, second 1.060
The results are great. I expect to use this yeast for both Wit beers and
Doubles in the future.
I've also made an excellent double with the yeast from Blanche de Chembly, a
Canadian product from the Montreal area.
JaH
------------------------------
Date: 29 Mar 95 09:38:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Brett and "horseyness"
Although I have not done any actual testing of these strains, I have
three strains of what appears to act like Brettanomyces, but two of three
of these cultures produce virtually no "horseyness." The third suspect
first produces an incredible amount of fruitiness (we're talking Juicy
Fruit Gum here!) and then only after lots of aging starts to show signs
of "sweatyness/horseyness." The two that are less than "horsey" are
commercially available and the third I cultured from a bottle of commercial
beer.
What I'm saying here is that perhaps there is no direct correlation
between Brettanomyces and that characteristic "horsey/sweaty" aroma.
Or maybe some are better than others at making it. What say ye?
Al.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:50:35 -0500
From: Mark Gryska <mark at dvcorp.com>
Subject: Recent Belgian experiences
I have just returned from a trip which took my through Belgium and
wanted to mention a couple of things for anyone who is heading there
in the very near future. (I will take more time to send a detainled
report)
The Hopduvel in Gent no longer accepts credit cards (other than
Eurocard). If you go there to buy beer than you must bring cash.
In Antwerp I highly recommend a visit to Afspanning 't Waagstuk
which in Tim Webbs book gets a luke warm rating. The business is
under new proprietorship of Hans Bombeke and Jo Boiy. They are
very friendly and beer lovers themselves and take great pride in
the beer menu and service. The cafe is located on Standswaag 20.
That's all for now. I will send a detailed report of my experiences.
- mg
Mark Gryska
mark at dvcorp.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 95 10:24:57 -0500
From: "Andrew R. Ruggles" <rugg0002 at gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Those yeast guys
from Brian Nummer's post:
> Do
> > I need special training for this, do your cultures require special
> > handling?
> > (I am no microbiologist, but I have enough skill to culture from the dregs
> > of
> > a bottloe conditioned beer, for instance.)
>
> I believe even the novice homebrewer can easily learn to make a starter
> culture
> of Saccharomyces yeast. It starts to get a little more difficult when you
> begin to deal with Brettanomyces. These cultures have a tendency to just up
> and die. So culturing results can be erratic. Lastly, bacteria are at least
> as finnicky as Brett. A few of the Lactobacillus, such as L. delbreuckii,
> are
> very hard to culture and keep alive. I do have a culture of Lactobacillus
> that
> is relatively easy to culture.
I would like to know what I can do in order to make a successful starter culture
in order to propogate Brettanomyces and Lactobacillus. Is it just a matter of
adding the correct % of CaCO3 to my sterile wort or do the MRS broth starters
provide something I can't get otherwise? Specifics on recommendations regarding
these techniques from Yeast Vendors would be greatly appreciated.
> (2) Very often I get brewers who want a particular flavor profile in their
> beer. If I sell them a culture I make no gaurantees about the exact flavor
> and
> aroma the culture will produce. By this I mean intricacies and not
> generalities, like wheat beer characteristics, etc. I mean someone wants to
> brew a beer that tastes like Orval. They use a yeast I recommend and it
> doesn't taste like Orval. Am I responsible? Should I reimburse them their
> ingredient costs?
No, you should not reimburse the cost of ingredients or time to the brewer.
When people ask me how much it costs to make my own beer, I tell them about
materials, then I tell them about time, then I tell them what I charge my
clients on an hourly basis, and I give them a ballpark figure of about
$100/case. Given these figures, the cost of a particular yeast strain is
nominal. We are craft brewers, not commercial brewers.
As far as the flavor and aroma go: Brian, I just want to know if the molding
cellar flavor comes from the fermentation strain or the bottling strain and what
if anything can I do to enhance the probability of obtaining that
characteristic? ;-)
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:33:11 -0700
From: k-jones at ee.utah.edu (Kelly Jones)
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #571 (March 29, 1995)
Please allow me to clarify one of my comments in recent digests. I said:
>I'm just pointing out that a
> vendor needs to go far beyond a money back guarantee in terms of quality
> assurance.
Some people disagreed with this, in part because they assumed I meant that
a vendor should offer triple money back, or assume liability for ruined
ingredients, time lost, etc. This is not at all what I meant.
What I meant was, a money back guarantee is not a substitute for a rigorous
quality assurance program. Its more important to make sure the product is
good before it goes out the door, than to offer a person his money back if
he discovers the product is bad. Too many vendors (and I'm not necessarily
talking about yeast vendors, lets talk about the marketplace in general)
sell crappy products, but then feel they've covered their at sses by offering
a money-back guarantee. If you sell me bad product, and it causes me some
greater financial (or other) loss, it doesn't help me much at all to know
that you'll give me back the money I spent on your product. I don't want
my money back, I want a good product to start with.
I want to buy from a vendor WHO NEVER HAS TO HONOR his money-back
guarantee, not a vendor who simply HAS one.
Also, Brian Nummer responded specifically to my comments about typing yeast
such as Weizen or Lambic. Although the extra information was appreciated,
I'd like to point out that I was not trying to casp aspersions on Brian's
weizen or lambic cultures, I was just picking a couple generic examples to
make a point.
Kelly
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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