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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #571 (March 29, 1995)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 00:30:20 -0700
Lambic Digest #571 Wed 29 March 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
YeastLab/pitching schedules ("Daniel S McConnell")
YeastLab/pitching schedules
Re: Vendors' responses (Russell Mast)
Re: Wyeast (Russell Mast)
Wye oh Wye (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
Re: Lambic Digest #570 (March 28, 1995) (Brian A Nummer)
Yeast vendors and warranties ("Lee C. Bussy")
Alexander Rodenbach (WTSteele)
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Date: 28 Mar 1995 08:53:53 -0500
From: "Daniel S McConnell" <Daniel.S.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: YeastLab/pitching schedules
Subject: YeastLab/pitching schedules
Russell writes:
>Daniel McCnnell of "YeastLab" - From your post I see you do supply a Brett.
>My other questoins above apply.
YeastLab liquid cultures are sold exclusively through GWKent (who holds
the YeastLab trade name). As such, they are available through all the shops
that buy from GWKent. I don't have a clue how much they cost by that time.
Brettanomyces and Pediococcus require a little special handling in that
they are slow growing organisms and consequently the brewer should be
extra careful about sanitation. This is not difficult.
In the beguinning there was Mike Sharp. He produced the first available BL
and PC cultures which were distributed through GWKent. He ceased
production about a year ago (maybe he has a real life) and I took over. These
strains are from the same stock.
Kelly writes:
>Dan didn't mention whether he also offers this guarantee, but I
>hope it would be a given.
Absolutely. Sorry about that high tech post, but this is the best place
for that sort of thing.
Betsey asked about pitching schedules a few digests ago and got lost in the
shuffle.
There are basically two (maybe three) schools of thought on this issue.
To my knowledge this still is unresolved. The theories are:
1-Pitch cultures successively to mimic the evolution of a lambic.
Start with Saccharomyces. When the main ferment is done ( a few weeks
later) pitch Pediococcus and Brettanomyces.
2-Pitch everything at once.
Generally using smaller volumes, some brewers like to pitch all three
main organisms at the onset and let them sort it out during the course of
a long fermentation.
2a-Pitch tiny cultures of everything ever isolated from a Lambic.
Generally favored by labrats of the Liddil/Sharp variety.......
I have tried 1 and 2 and detect no difference that I can attribute to pitching
schedule alone.
Good Luck.
DanMcC
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 08:53:03 CST
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Re: Vendors' responses
> From: k-jones at ee.utah.edu (Kelly Jones)
>
> Brian said:
> > As far as typing goes
> >I list my cultures by the style of beer it came from.
>
> Although this may be good in many cases, in others (it seems to me) it may
> not be enough. For example, the yeast may have "come from" a bottle of
> Weizen, but actually be a bottling strain, and not a phenolic producer. Or
> it may have "come from" a bottle of lambic, in which case it may (or may
> not) be just about anything. It seems that far more is needed in the way
> of typing.
Unless I'm seriously mistaken, Mr. Nummer is buying his cultures from the
brewery, rather than harvesting from a bottle. Clearly, the problems with any
lambic culture are large, but the Weizen yeast he (and Wyeast and all the rest)
originates inside a brewery.
> >I guarantee the customers satisfaction. If they are not satisfied I will
> >replace the culture or refund their money.
>
> While this is good, it is little consolation to a brewer who has just
> poured 10 or more gallons of beer down the drain (in which he has invested
> many hours and dollars) , because of bad or mislabeled yeast, to know that
> he can get his $2.75 (or whatever) back. Would you buy medication from a
> pharmacist whose only guarantee was that he'd refund your money if he
> accidentally sold you the wrong stuff?
I strongly disagree with that analogy. Any time you brew, you invest
time and money and hope to be paid in dividends of good beer. You
always take a risk of having it turn out bad. If you get the wrong yeast,
and your techiniques are good, you'll still have decent beer. Not so
with most pharmaceuticals. Even if you buy something labelled as yeast
and it turns out to be _real_ horse sweat (or silver fox sweat), you only
lose one batch of beer. Yes, this is sad, but it's not tragic.
> This is not meant to be an attack on anyone, I'm just pointing out that a
> vendor needs to go far beyond a money back guarantee in terms of quality
> assurance.
I disagree. Perhaps a triple-money back or something, but if you ask
them to refund your expenditures for a whole batch, how do you prove
what went into it? "Yes, Brian, I spent $400 on the ingredients for
that batch, and, since I spent 10 hours on it, I'd like you to drive
up here and clean my garage." I think not.
There's always the risk of losing beer, and even the best yeast supplier
can't get every single batch perfect every time. However, if someone
consistently supplied an inferior product, word would get around and they
would lose lots of business. (Particularly if they didn't take friendly
measures to stem the tide of rumors.)
-R
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 09:02:11 CST
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Re: Wyeast
> At any rate, here is a public statement from Dave Logsdon, of Wyeast
> Labs, given to me over the weekend.
<lots deleted>
> If this forum is for the advancement of lambic brewing, would this
> not constitute positive input and discussion?
I do believe that this letter from Mr. Lodgson definately constitutes a
positive contribution. I do not believe that a formal retraction under
coercion of someone's own experiments (which were admitted to be fallible
at the time) constitutes a positive contribution.
I want more independant tests. I want to see a positive response from a
vendor before seeing legal fur flying. "Can't we all just get along."
-R
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 08:58:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Wye oh Wye
> At any rate, here is a public statement from Dave Logsdon, of Wyeast
> Labs, given to me over the weekend.
> This is well-understood and expected. Wyeast stands behind what we
> produce, and have always responded to inquiries and comments about
> our products. Wyeast would not be in business today if we did not
> have satisfied customers.
They may have enough satisfied customers to keep them in business, but
they certainly have some unsatisfied customers.
>
> In regard to Jim Liddil's comments, I can only wonder why there was
> no response to a letter sent to him requesting his input on specific
> cultures Wyeast used for this product.
So he is required to respond to any letters he receives before he presents
his beliefs in public?
> Wyeast's objective is to
> provide cultures which produce flavor characteristics appropriate
> to the style.
This may be their objective, which is fine, but it still seems to me
that cultures labeled with a specific name should contain that and
not much else. If they would like to produce a product and call it
"Lambic-style yeast" that would be fine. If it says "Brettanomyces
bruxellensis" that's what I expect.
> Obviously, in the case of lambic beers, it is
> theoretically impossible to provide all of the strains, in the
> correct proprotions, with the procedures to reproduce this beerstyle.
> Experienced brewers realize this, and should have the wherewithall to
> proceed with that understanding. But what about the novice? Should
> they be provided the proteolytic bacteria 9which has been identified
> to include enteric bacteria) so they can produce a truer lambic?
What does this have to do with whether it is OK to sell one product as
another?
> In several years of producing this product, we have yet to receive
> one complaint about the quality of beer produced with this culture.
> Here at the lab, we have produced many fine beers as part of our
> research and evaluation.
No one (to my knowledge) is producing beer that is as good as they
want with this product. How can people complain about the product
when they would naturally expect that the real problem is the
difficulty of making a pure culture lambic? One wouldn't expect a
great (p)lambic even if all the bugs going in were just what was
expected. Besides, several years is only two batches.
> Yet we do remain open to comments and
> suggestions on how we can improve it. I do not believe that one
> person's perception of something so complex, should be etched in
> stone as being the only way it can be accomplished.
I obviously missed the etching in stone thing. Where was that?
I think Wyeast could learn a lesson from Intel's recent experience.
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:08:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian A Nummer <BAN5845 at tntech.edu>
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #570 (March 28, 1995)
>
>
> Brian Nummer of "Head Start Brewing Cultures" - Do you sell strains of
> Brettanomyces yeast?
Yes. I have 5 different Bretts.
How much does it cost and where do I order it from?
I think this question is best left to private e-mail. I can be reached at
BAN5845 at TnTech.edu.
Do
> I need special training for this, do your cultures require special handling?
> (I am no microbiologist, but I have enough skill to culture from the dregs of
> a bottloe conditioned beer, for instance.)
I believe even the novice homebrewer can easily learn to make a starter culture
of Saccharomyces yeast. It starts to get a little more difficult when you
begin to deal with Brettanomyces. These cultures have a tendency to just up
and die. So culturing results can be erratic. Lastly, bacteria are at least
as finnicky as Brett. A few of the Lactobacillus, such as L. delbreuckii, are
very hard to culture and keep alive. I do have a culture of Lactobacillus that
is relatively easy to culture.
Also, to both, is there any place in the Chicago area where I can purchase
> these without mail-ordering them?
No. Because of the nature of yeast I deal for the majority in mail order. I
have a few retail suppliers selling my cultures, but none in Chicago. The
reason I prefer direct mail order is QC. Once the culture leaves my hands I am
held accountable for its safe delivery to my customer. I have to trust all of
the middle men, including the US Mail, with proper handling of my cultures.
>
> First, let me congratulate and thank Brian Nummer and Dan McConnell for
> their posts. It's good to see there are suppliers willing to respond with
> information rather than with threats of legal action. That said, I have a
> few additional comments. I should point out that I have almost no microbio
> background, and don't pretend to be knowledgeable in this area. If I have
> erred, feel free to let me know.
>
> Brian said:
> > As far as typing goes
> >I list my cultures by the style of beer it came from.
>
> Although this may be good in many cases, in others (it seems to me) it may
> not be enough. For example, the yeast may have "come from" a bottle of
> Weizen, but actually be a bottling strain, and not a phenolic producer. Or
> it may have "come from" a bottle of lambic, in which case it may (or may
> not) be just about anything. It seems that far more is needed in the way
> of typing.
In these cases I have breif descriptions in my catalog pertaining to this. For
example I have one yeast from a Steinweizen. The yeast produces no phenolics
and is the same yeast used in Steinbier. As far as lambic cultures go all of
my strains are pure culture strains from brewing Schools or major
Microbiological collections. I do not sell the dregs of bottles as panacea
lambic cultures. Since this is the lambic digest I want to point out that
there is a different method of culture inoculation for each lambic brewer. I
simply provide the cultures for brewers to use as they see fit.
>
> Brian said:
> > What
> >> guarantees are vendors offering?
> >
> >I guarantee the customers satisfaction. If they are not satisfied I will
> >replace the culture or refund their money.
> >
>
> While this is good, it is little consolation to a brewer who has just
> poured 10 or more gallons of beer down the drain (in which he has invested
> many hours and dollars) , because of bad or mislabeled yeast, to know that
> he can get his $2.75 (or whatever) back. Would you buy medication from a
> pharmacist whose only guarantee was that he'd refund your money if he
> accidentally sold you the wrong stuff?
I need to divide this question into two aspects: (1) contaminated yeast and (2)
unexpected yeast flavor/aroma profiles. (1) I keep verified culture stocks as
masters. From these masters I make sub cultures. The subcultures then are
used to propagate the yeast I sell to customers. With proper handling the
yeast should not get contaminated. I say "should", because there is always the
possibility. Satisfied customers are the only way you can gauge my ability to
sell "pure" cultures.
On a commercial level big breweries make small test batches with their yeast
before they scale up to pitch 100 BBl or more. Each test batch is analyzed for
th edesired characteristics. I recommend brewers smell and taste their starter
cultures. If something has gone wrong they may taste it in the starter. I
especialy recommend small test brews when brewers start into unfamiliar
territory, such as sour beers. I brew 1 gallon test batches all of the time to
analyze my strains. In doing so I get familiar with their habits. Then I
scale up to 5 or 10 gallons.
(2) Very often I get brewers who want a particular flavor profile in their
beer. If I sell them a culture I make no gaurantees about the exact flavor and
aroma the culture will produce. By this I mean intricacies and not
generalities, like wheat beer characteristics, etc. I mean someone wants to
brew a beer that tastes like Orval. They use a yeast I recommend and it
doesn't taste like Orval. Am I responsible? Should I reimburse them their
ingredient costs?
>
> This is not meant to be an attack on anyone, I'm just pointing out that a
> vendor needs to go far beyond a money back guarantee in terms of quality
> assurance. Dan didn't mention whether he also offers this guarantee, but I
> hope it would be a given.
>
> I won't bother to critique Dan's methods, since for the most part I didn't
> understand what he said! ;)
>
> Just my thoughts.
Please don't look at us yeast vendors as unscupulous businessman whose sole
goal is to get your money. On the contrary I started Head Start Brewing
Cultures to increase the choices Brewers have in yeast cultures. I would
suspect Dan Mc Connel may have did the same. I can tell you if I was in this
business for tyhe profit the business would end today. I have a new Brewpub to
run.
On this whole topic, I htink it is good that there are those of you who out
there asking all of these questions about QC. This keeps us vendors honest. I
As a scientist I enjoy the challenge. ;-) just remember not to many years ago
we were all using those packages of yeast labelled "beer yeast" that came with
a can of malt extract. ;-).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:12:03 +0000
From: "Lee C. Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject: Yeast vendors and warranties
I had to comment on this one.....
Someonbe (I forget who now) opined that a yeat supplier's liability
ought to extend far beyont the cost of the culture.
I heartily disagree.
I have supplied my local HB shop with fresh cultures for a year or so
and belive me I am not getting rich on it... all it does is assure me
of a culture whenever I feel the need to brew. It is beyond me how
some people make a profit doing it.
I have had dealings with customers who have suggested such things and
to be blunt, I've had about enough. I cannot and will not be
responsible for people who add the culture out of the fridge right to
100 degree wort or customers who don't boil starters or even those
who don't make starters.
I had one customer who was able to prove to
my satisfaction that it was my fault that his batch went bad and we
settled up but he was an exceprional brewer, kept unbelivable records
and I was able to identify the source of the infection.
Those other customers who say the yeast won't start or they got
infecctions or their dog ran away.... well the analogy of the
pharmacist isn't going to work. The pharmacist get's a prescription
from someone else and fills it.... he doesn't give you the chemicals
to make your own medicine.
- --
-Lee Bussy | The 4 Basic Foodgroups.... |
leeb at southwind.net | Salt, Fat, Beer & Women! |
Wichita, Kansas | http://www.southwind.net/~leeb |
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 23:57:52 -0500
From: WTSteele at aol.com
Subject: Alexander Rodenbach
I am in the planning stages of brewing (hoppfully) an Alexander Rodenbach
like brew. Curent thoughts are to use Head Start yeast culture #321(flanders
red) and #333 (lactobacillus "flanderii") lactic culture for the ferment.
grain bill-OG 1.050
54% pale malt
38% vienna malt
4% special B
4% pale crystal malt
20 IBU Styian Goldings hops
1/2 lb. sour cheeries per gal.
step mash - ferment 24 hrs. with lactic culture - pitch yeast - rack on top
of cheeries (french oak wine cask) when fermentation compleate - age in cask
for 6-8 weeks - rack off cheeries into glass let settle untill clear before
bottling.
any comments - sugestions are welcome - direct Email OK - results will be
posted - wtsteele at aol.com (Todd Steele)
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
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