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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #505 (December 08, 1994)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:30:19 -0700
Lambic Digest #505 Thu 08 December 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Brett/Pedio/Brits (ROB THOMAS)
brett. &^ lacto (Aaron Birenboim)
Re: Lambic Digest #504 (December 07, 1994) (ptimmerm)
Re: Brett starters ("Andrew R. Ruggles")
Re: In the realm of the senses ("Paul Jasper")
More on Smelly, Foul Beer (Jim Liddil)
Re: In the realm of the senses (Conn Copas)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 12:10:35 +0100
From: thomasr at ezrz1.vmsmail.ethz.ch (ROB THOMAS)
Subject: Brett/Pedio/Brits
Hello all,
well, now that the fire is raging, I'm going to dance among the
flames a little (in for a penny, in for a pound).
Firstly, thanks to all for the lively and fact filled dicussion
that has begun on Pedio/Brett and friends.
The off bottle of Wets I tried is absolutely crawling with
fast growing yeasts. They appear to need oxygen (I covered
one Petri dish with parrafin oil in a hopelessly pathetic
way of simulating anaerobic conditions and nothing has grown in
5 days). So much for excessive Brett (though that may come along soon)
Jim, you say the KUL results imply that the hardness in
lambics comes from Brett. How so? And which Theses? (Not
a jab, I want to check these as well).
And, again, I'll try and explain the obviously generalised
and often downright wrong statement that 18th and 19th C
British methods were that same as lambics.
Firstly, I'm only addressing Stock ales and Porters. Secondly
I am certainly not implying that the ingredient list
was the same (eg Wheat, superannuated hops). Nor am I
arguing against the patently obvious contention that Brit
primary yeasts were cultured (or atleast skimmed and repitched).
However, these beers (even if this fact is ignored by all
modern brewers of Porter) were stored for upto 18 months
in oak (unlined) barrels and vats. There is no denying that
Brettanomyces were vital to their proper development over
this time. The only chemical analysis of beers FROM THAT TIME
that I've found is in the book by (lets all say it...) Accum.
The terminal gravities are very low (app. attenuations upto
80 percent), high tannin content, and measurable amounts
of "malic acid". This is interesting, since malic acid
is not found in hops or malt, but rather in fruit. Possibly
he meant lactic, or couldn't analyse the difference.
Anyway, the impression I get from all the historical
books I've read that go into details about brewing
practice 9particularly at the end of the last century) is
that the authors concentrate almost exclusively in the
changes towards modernisation that were made, and accurate
discussion of the actual working practice among
(then) old-fashioned brewers is lacking.
Oops, got sidetracked there. Anyway, with barrel conditioning
of upto a year and a half, I'd certainly expect to
notice the effects of Pedio if it was in the brew (barrel).
OK, it's getting hot in here, time to step out of the fire
Cheers,
Rob.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 07:23:56 -0800
From: mole at netcom.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: brett. &^ lacto
1) I have several brett cultures which produce copius gas. (At least
i hope that all 3 are brett!!) Creamy foamy head... certainly
not. But shake the jar and they out-gas for sure.
2) I do not think the questioning of pedio in lambic is unreasonable.
I think that we all agree that it is OK in lambic, but might another
beast be better for acid formation? Lactobacilli? Other bacteria?
What does Kohelecra (sp?) produce?
P.S. I can't keep my pedio alive? What have I done? If its so
hard to get rid of, why do I have such a hard time with it?
Brewing report:
I did a turbid mash last week. I do have some suggestions...
1) Next time, I'll step infust the mash until the 150F rest, then start
taking turbid runnings to the boiler, and start my marathon boil.
2) Observation: The white starchiness extracted seemed to go away (mostly)
in my boil. My wort was mostly clear. Is this bad?
3) 3-4 year old hops may not be enough. I used 8 oz. 3-4 year old hops
(they had been stored in paper bags) for 11 gal. It was bitter.
Not bitter for a "regular" beer, but still noticibly so. Even if you
have well aged hops, I'd suggest giving them some sun-baithing,
of the "Lohdal" oven treatment.
I , personally will not go for the "mega-hops" treatment again. I'll
fall back to a more reasonable level like 2-3 oz/5gal next time,
unless somebody convinces me otherwise.
4) I have the batch split 3 ways. 3/4 gal fermenting from DeNeve dregs.
3/4 gal fermneting on Handsen's dregs. 9+ gal fermenting on
Hadnsen's, DeNeve, and WYEAST 1028? London Ale. The pedio will go
in when the fermentation slows a bit. Both bottles are putting out a
plasticy (phenolic?) arome. The oak is producing a combination
of plastic and earthy-feral aromas. Comments?
(the 9 gal part is on oak. I plan to top off the oak with the other
bottles as the fermentation subsides)
aaron
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 94 08:30:04 PST
From: ptimmerm at mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #504 (December 07, 1994)
Spencer talk about >wine< of all things :-) states:
>
there was the wine with the "sweaty" aroma. One other person said it
smelled like "old sneakers." Should I suspect a Brett secondary
fermentation for this one? I wouldn't be surprised.
>
I think there ARE a lot of paralells, and we could learn some
things from the vintners. I visited a winery last year that
made on special batch with "natural fermentation". i.e.
using the wild flora from the grape skins. I bet there
was some pretty serious biological diversity in that batch!
Mostly in america we get the stuff that is pitched with
"approved" yeast and fermented in stainless tanks with good
thermal control. (aka The Davis Method) This philosophy
carries over into the CA beer making. Boring yeast, Unitanks,
Domestic Hops and GW malt. Ssssnnnnooooorrrrrr!!!!!
I bet that Chilean wine had some character, eh?
Micheal Lewis probably hasn't been there yet,
nor have they heard of him or seen a unitank!
Rant, Rave, %$#! at & Let Biodiveristy Rule your Beverages
Revolt again the tyranny of U.C Davis
Drink something with weird bugs in it
Paul T-
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 94 11:48:35 -0500
From: "Andrew R. Ruggles" <rugg0002 at gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Brett starters
>From Mike's post:
> Marc Hugentobler <MARHUG at TELECOM.USU.EDU> writes:
> > right at this very moment I am culturing wyeast's brett. brux.
> > strain.
> ....
> > That afternoon( roughly 8 hours later) the
> > cultures(all three simultaneously) were bustling with big brimming
> > heads like regular sach. Now from what I've read brett. should not be
> > cranking like this. So what'ya think--three simultaneous erroneous
> > innoculations or not?
> _ASSUMING_ that you really where amazing anal, autoclaved the media, etc.
> I'd be wondering if you started with Brettanomyces. I certainly don't
> have a strain that grows this fast, nor have I heard of one. I've also
> never seen one generate a foamy head.
Jim responds:
> Do we know for usre that the Wyeast "brett" is a brettanomyces? This is this
> weeks project when the package arrives :-) You could have a contamination
> problem. also if there is enough oxygen it could undergo vigorous activity
> depending on the behavior of the individual strain. Anyone else have
> experience with this strain? I guess that is it for today.
I misplaced my journal to find out the timing, but I distinctly remember the
GWKent Brett and the Wyeast Brett cultures producing foamy heads. Not tight
fine white foam, but rather a more tannish foam with larger sustained bubbles.
The Boon Gueze I cultured (more than a year ago?) also had a similiar foamy
head. In 8 hours? I don't think so -- more like 2-3 days.
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 12:20:09 -0800
From: "Paul Jasper" <paul at ide.com>
Subject: Re: In the realm of the senses
On 6 Dec, 10:51, Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu wrote:
> Subject: Re: In the realm of the senses
>
> On Saturday, I participated in a wine tasting/dinner party. It's the
> first time I've done this since I started judging beers. We were
> tasting 6 chardonnays (2 French, 2 US, 1 Chilean, 1 Australian), blind.
>
> I was fascinated (but should I have been surprised?) to find many of
> the same "fermentation" aromas in these wines that I've learned to
> identify in beer.
No, you shouldn't be surprised. An old girlfriend of mine drinks a
lot of wine, particularly California Chardonnays, so I got to taste
a few too... I live in San Francisco, very convenient for trips to
the "Wine Country". On such trips over the past few years I've taken
a casual interest in the different flavors and the techniques used to
achieve them, both for the white and red wines. I figure if I learn
to discern the different flavor components in wine, I'll gain a better
understanding of beer too.
By no means would I consider myself a wine expert (I just drink it and
try to learn a little more on each trip north). But this is an
interesting thread and maybe we do have some real wine buffs lurking who
would like to contribute?
> For example, there were a couple of wines that had
> a distinct banana aroma (dare I say "iso-amyl acetate"?)
It's surprising the range of different flavors that can be achieved.
My preference is for some of the Sonoma/Carneros chards that achieve
a fine balance between the fruity, acidic components, the butteriness
from malo-lactic fermentation and subtle oakiness from maturing in
French oak. However, there are many chardonnays that accentaute just
one of these.
> And then,
> there was the wine with the "sweaty" aroma. One other person said it
> smelled like "old sneakers." Should I suspect a Brett secondary
> fermentation for this one? I wouldn't be surprised.
My initial reaction is that this would not be a desirable quality in
a chardonnay. I don't recall ever tasting one like this. Do you remember
which it was? It sounds like a failed attempt at a malo-lactic fermentation,
that's got infected. But maybe someone else knows better...?
>-- End of excerpt from Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
So, does any of this sound familiar? "fruity", "acidic", "lactic",
"oaky", "sweaty"...
- --
- -- Paul Jasper
- -- Interactive Development Environments
- -- 595 Market Street, 10th Floor, San Francisco CA 94105
- -- +1 (415) 543-1314 x336 Fax: +1 (415) 543-0145
- --
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 15:35:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: More on Smelly, Foul Beer
Well I got one of the Heresztyn references. Tried to find the various
compunds. Well beer and wine guys are not using IUPAC naming so I have not
found anything even in Aldrich. They don't even have
2-acetyl-1,4,5,6-tetrahydropyridine, so how anyone knows what it smells like is
a big question. It states that either yeasts have the ability to make things
like 4-vinyl guaiacol or they do not. Seems most brett strains do. This and
othe "volatile phenols" give wine and beer the mouse-like, smoke-like
clove-like, woody etc. odours. I can't find boiling points for these things
yet. Anyone know the IUPAC names? There should be no shortage of convertable
substrates in a reasonable wort.
I think these compounds combined with caproic acid (goat-like aroma), caprylic
acid (slightly unpleasant rancid taste) and capric acid (rancid odor) in the
lambic lead to an aroma profile that can be highly variable. Part of this may
be due to the volatility and insolubility fo these compounds in water. Add on
top of this the acid aroma and you have quite a complex taste/flavor/aroma
spectrum for your brain to dissect. And throw into this the variability from
batch to batch of even the commercial stuff and the matrix grows even more
complex. But judges should still be able to develop an idea of what
brettanomyces fermentation by-products smell like aside from the acid aroma.
Of course the other trick is getting this to happen in the right proportions at
home :-)
Another request. Has anyone seen the Detroch stuff and if so how is it and is
there any sediment in the gueuze at all. the importer says it is filtered.
Lindemanns Cuvee rene might be in distribution the beginning of next year.
Merchant DuVin told me they had label problems FWIW.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:46:35 +1030 (GMT+10:30)
From: cvc at itd.dsto.gov.au (Conn Copas)
Subject: Re: In the realm of the senses
Spencer writes about the similar fermentation aromas in wine and beer. Just to
add to that, in amateur wine circles, 'mouse' is usually regarded as a fatal
flaw by judges. It is also regarded as something of a mystery by winemakers,
as it tends to rear its head late in storage, even under anaerobic conditions.
Conn V Copas cvc at itd.dsto.gov.au
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
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