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Lambic Digest #0513
From postmaster at lance.colostate.edu Wed Dec 21 03:15:21 1994
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From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #513 (December 21, 1994)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 00:30:09 -0700
Lambic Digest #513 Wed 21 December 1994
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: A Sad Tale (Michael Ligas)
Belle Vue and update (Todd Gierman)
Re: Lambic Digest #512 (December 20, 1994) (ptimmerm)
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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 08:35:41 +0001 (EST)
From: Michael Ligas <ligas at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Re: A Sad Tale
In response to Jim's post concerning contaminated Wyeast cultures (or
Brett. cultures that aren't authentic), I have also done testing in the
past and was rather reluctant to post my results in a widely read forum
for fear of reprisal and charges of bad-mouthing a soon-to-be competitor.
I've detected, but not characterized, bacteria in a variety of Wyeast
cultures, using WL Differential and Schwartz Differential media. The
worst offender was the Irish ale yeast.
WRT to the cyclohexamide sensitive Brett. culture from Wyeast, have you
tried plates with varying degrees of cyclo? Also, are there any colonies
with zones of clearing when plated on YEPD agar or malt agar containing
0.5% CaCO3? I'll look into this and maybe someone else should do the
same.
Take care.
- ML -
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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 15:44:54 -0500
From: tmg at galactose.mc.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: Belle Vue and update
> john.dodson at cantina.com (John Dodson) wrote:
>
>
>One problem I have is that I have only tasted one lambic beer (El Paso
>is a beer deprived desert town). The lambic I tried was Bella-Vue Gueze
>lambic ale. My question is: Is this a good example of a lambic? It
>differs greatly from some of descriptions of 'lactic sourness' I have
>seen in this forum. This beer was sweet and estery (berry fruit came to
>mind), very effervescent and a beautiful crystal clear amber color. For
>some reason I expected a cloudy sour beer. I enjoyed the beer very
>much, although at $4.50 a bottle I will not drink many.
Lambic-based beers seem to fall into two categories: "contemporary" and
"traditional." Contemporary lambics tend to be filtered to remove the
attenuating and souring organism and are often sweetened and given a dose
of fruit syrup. They are not bottle conditioned in any sense. Traditional
lambics make use of whole fruits when used and rely on refermentation in
the bottle. They are often thin, sour and less approachable. Cantillon is
an example of a traditional lambic that seems to be coming more widely
available. Other examples, should you get to Belgium, are Oud Beersel,
Giardin, De Troch, and LIndemans Fond Gueuze (only). Boon, which gets
considerable attention in this forum, is viewed by some to be slightly less
than traditional, as some products are filtered or "partially filtered" and
lightly sweetened. These are considered more approachable than some of the
harder brands and seem intended to provide a middle ground between
traditional and contemporary products. BelleVue is an example of the
contemporary style.
You may have a difficult time duplicating this type unless you can filter
and force carbonate your p-lambic. This will allow you to soften the
p-lambic by sweetening it to taste. If you are using the genuine organisms
then you are more apt to produce a traditional type p-lambic that becomes
more attenuated with age. If a wine-cooler type drink is more to your
liking then you shouldn't waste your time obtaining the more exotic
organisms. Just make a low gravity wheat beer add fruit and maybe a
lactobacillus.
>
>Also, I have not seen mentioned the brett. and pedio. cultures carried
>by Brewers Resource. Have folks succesfully used these cultures?
They seemed to have had some problem with the Brett last year (similar to
what is being reported about Wyeast this year). In spite of some serious
prodding they were slow to accept that anything was amiss. However, it
seems that they eventually got it cleared up. I don't know anything about
the Pedio. Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to attribute success
or lack thereof to any individual culture and so you never really know
whether any culture is a dud, unless you have the ability to examine it up
close.
Unfortunately, maintaining a line of Brett seems to be difficult for many
suppliers and this is unfortunate for everyone involved. Maintaining Brett
on a long term basis seems to require considerable attention to quality
control. My only suggestion is that when using Brett, build up a starter
that can then sit for several weeks to a month before pitching. Let it sit
at room temperature without adding any more extract for a considerable
length of time. Periodically smell this starter. It should develop an
odor that will not be confused with anything produced by S. cerevisiae.
You should smell something slightly sour and appley, maybe flowery, nothing
gross and disgusting, though. It is very distinct, but pleasant in an
exotic sort of way. If you have doubts about this starter, then you should
seek another source of Brett. I hate to advocate pitching multiple Brett
cultures on the basis of cost, but it is a reasonable way to hedge your
bets. Maybe you will pitch your culture and then several months later a
bottle of Cantillon will fall into your lap. Pitching the dregs would
probably be good insurance. Remember, time is on your side.
With that I will offer what will probably be a final update on my recent
p-lambic attempts. To briefly summarize: two batches - a five gallon at 11
months and a ten gallon at 2.5 months were blended as follows: 2.5 gallons
11-month on 6 pds blackberries + 1.25 gallon split-pitch Boon + 1.25 gallon
split-pitch Cantillon (both 2.5 months). The older batch had a gravity of
1004-1006, whereas the younger blend was at 1010. One half cup corn sugar
was used to prime, leaving attenuation of the young blend to do the rest of
the carbonating. This has been in the bottle about 5 weeks. I bottled in
750-ml champagne bottles with crown cap and several European splits which I
stoppered with plastic stoppers and wire bails. I should note that
carbonation levels varied among the stoppered splits as the tightness of
the fit between stopper and split seemed to vary (Bottom-line: I won't use
splits and stoppers again). I have tasted this about every week now. To
start, of course, it was somewhat sweeter and the blackberry character
almost puckery. Both of these traits have subsided as the p-lambic becomes
more carbonated. There is a pleasant degree of complexity: somewhat
woody/oaky; perceptibly phenolic, though slightly so; reasonably fruity
(blackberry), maybe a little flowery, vinous and "outdoorsy." Right now it
is fairly delicate, but it is clearly drying and the Brett is coming
through more and more. It is not at this point horsey, goaty or "feral"
:-) It is quite tart, more lactic than acetic. I should also say that it
comes out of the bottle crystal clear and a brilliant burgundy. However, I
have been drinking it at room temperature. Chilling it may bring on a
haze. I like it and eventhough I do not feel that it fits the mold of the
expectations that are often laid out in this forum (ones that I too had
adopted), I accept it as part of the inevitable variability of the process.
I had wanted to use the remaining 2.5 gallons of 11-month for a straight
gueuze, but my mother bought me 10 pds of Michigan tart cherries - so what
are you going to do? So, the two batches were blended as before and racked
onto 10 pds of pitless pie cherries + the packing syrup (gravity = 1054,
but not too sweet) in a 7 gallon food grade bucket. The bucket is
partially sealed with a lid (no airlock). I frequently take the lid off to
see how things are progressing. The cherries have formed a cake on the top
with a layer of yeast and trapped air bubbles on it. I don't seem to be
having a mold problem and refermentation is proceeding. I'll probably let
this go for a total of 6-8 wks. depending on when I can bottle. The
remaining 2.5 gallons of the 2.5 month split batch were blended and left to
sit until sometime next year.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 13:02:35 PST
From: ptimmerm at mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV
Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #512 (December 20, 1994)
Re: Mashing with Flour
Jim L. asks:
>Has anyone mahsed using whole wheat flour on the order of 30-40% of the grist.
>I am interested in your experiences and how well it did or did not work with
>your particular mashing setup.
Eric's Lecture at SoB on Belgain mash procedure mentioned the use of flour.
I believe he said that flour was used mainly to deal with the problem of
too small a mash tun. He talked about using it in quantities of only
10-15 percent. Your 30-40% would greatly exceed that. I am not sure
how fine the lambic brewer's actually get there raw wheat, but the
do say "fine". Mashing in would be the biggest problem, I suspect.
To reduce this I would stir it in gradually, eliminating any lumps.
paul t-
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End of Lambic Digest
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