Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Lambic Digest #0528
From postmaster at lance.colostate.edu Fri Jan 20 03:21:50 1995
Status: O
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
["16186" "Fri" "20" "January" "1995" "00:30:14" "-0700" "subscription requests only" "lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu" nil "405" "Lambic Digest #528 (January 20, 1995)" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil]
nil)
Received: by truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2)
with X.500 id DAA01202; Fri, 20 Jan 1995 03:21:48 -0500
Received: from goodman.itn.med.umich.edu by truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2)
with SMTP id DAA01197; Fri, 20 Jan 1995 03:21:47 -0500
Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA09949
(5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at umich.edu); Fri, 20 Jan 95 03:21:45 -0500
Received: (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.9/8.6.5a (LANCE 1.01)) id AAA20027 for reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu; Fri, 20 Jan 1995 00:30:14 -0700
Message-Id: <199501200730.AAA20027 at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Reply-To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription requests here)
Errors-To: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu
From: lambic-request at lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here)
To: lambic at lance.colostate.edu
Subject: Lambic Digest #528 (January 20, 1995)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 00:30:14 -0700
Lambic Digest #528 Fri 20 January 1995
Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles)
Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Re: Lambic tasting orgy (bickham)
various (Todd Gierman)
Brett, Oily Mouthfeel (Jim Liddil)
Gueuze vs. Lambic (Norman Dickenson)
Straight Lambic Rantings (C.R. Saikley)
Am I the last to know?? (Michael Sharp)
Miscellaneous (Brian A Nummer)
Added raspberries and nothing happened... (Teddy Winstead)
yeast (DavidM3019)
Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to:
lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to:
netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu
Phil Seitz' series on Brewing Belgian Beer is available; the index
from the archives lists individual topics and the complete set.
Start with the help message above then request the index.
A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the
subject or body of your message (to netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 08:41:50 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Lambic tasting orgy
From: cr at humphrey.com (C.R. Saikley)
> Subject: Sunday's Debauchery
>
> Regarding Mike's rankings, I'd agree that Hannsen's (sp?, I guess labels are
> worth something) was the winner. I'd also add that the 3-4 year old hand
> carried
> Boon Kreik was superior to the recently imported Marriage Parfait. This
> beer has defintely changed character in the last few years.
I was wondering if any of you have tasting notes for the many beers you
sampled, and if so, could you share them with the rest of us so that we
can at least taste them vicariously. For example, why did you regard
Hanssen's the overall winner, etc. Pat Baker and Betty-Ann Sather just
returned from Belgium and would like to compare notes.
Thanks,
Scott
- --
========================================================================
Scott Bickham
bickham at msc.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:18:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: various
_Technicalities_
Jim Liddil comments:
>I assume you mean straight unblended, flat beer in a bottle. Well lambic
>does not exist in the bottle. Real lambic comes from a cask and is
>served in cafes in Brussel etc.
(Bzzzzzzzzt. [annoying buzzer sound]). Sorry, Jim. I quote from the
CAMRA guide:
Most lambic sold in cafes is found on draft and will tend to contain
around five per cent alcohol. The differences between young and old
are unmistakable. Cantillon has tried bottling one of its older
lambics with some success as Bruocsella 1900 Gand Cru but there are
drawbacks due to the low carbonation making it flatter than the
flattest real ale.
No doubt, they are neither the first nor the last to attempt this.
>For the most part I think most of the "gueuze" that we are making is
>really lambic-like beer that is primed.
Yes. I agree, but would add that technically it is somewhere between a
faro (lambic + sugar) and a lambic/gueuze (without the blending). I
believe that there was a practice (if no longer practiced), whereby the
consumer added sugar to the lambic a few days prior to consumption to
sweeten and carbonate (perhaps). Also, old Boon Pertotale (double-faro)
tastes like a nicely balanced gueuze, as opposed to the young stuff,
which tastes more like an ale gone bad.
>I certainly have not made any true pgueuze that is 95% old beer and 5%
>new beer in a bottle.
You're citing Boon's blending method. It should be pointed out that there
are others.
>And whetther or not a beer is slammed is a function of whether or not
>the judges really know what lambics are all about.
Phil's guidelines do take into account what a real (low carbonation)
lambic should be like. Now whether even the most knowledgable are in a
position to judge them is questionable, unless they have the practical
experience of frequenting Brussels cafes. Right now, it seems that
gueuze is a accepted as a lambic without fruit, but having carbonation.
If competitions can't control for out of style original gravities, then
they certainly aren't in a position to stipulate blended vs. unblended.
>Because IMHO none of us is making anything real close to the real
thing.
Tsk. Tsk. That old saw? You've made at least one great p-lambic. I
think that we have to recognize variety and variability (lack of
consistency) as a part of the genre.
_An Unpopular Thought_
CR writes:
>An interesting point which came up Sunday is that there are now more
>(p)lambic brewers in the US than in Belgium. Furthermore, lambic brewing
>is dying there, while just beginning here. It may well be that what
>remains of the lambic tradition in the 21st century survives through our
>efforts here. Go while you still can.
So, maybe Jim Koch is contributing to keeping the style alive in ways
nobody really considered. Maybe, it's not lambic, but it does arouse the
curiosity and it seems quite popular. Perhaps, those brewers/blenders
who manage to hold on will be glad that they didn't sue. (should I
retract this?)
When you consider that the average beer drinker recoils in disgust after
the first sip of a traditional lambic, it's not surprising that the
market is shrinking. This is not simply a characterization of American
palletes but seems to be true of many Europeans.
Putting rejection in a positive light: you can feel pretty good if only
1:10 at the club meeting finds your p-lambic drinkable (I think).
_Is he still living?_
Al makes a good case for collectivization:
>Forget about calling Mainstreet -- I bought every bottle
>of MP they had in the store: '86 Framboise, '89 Kriek and '93 Gueuze.
>If they get more, I'll post, but only after I've taken another few cases
>for my personal collection.
I think that you've just pissed off a number of people in the Chicago
Beer Society. I suggest that you install a steel-framed door on the
entrance to your home, just in case the lambic market crashes any time
soon :-)
_Chapeau is Here_
Yeah. Strawberry, Banana, and Exotic (pineapple and something else).
The label says "refermented in the bottle." The only sediment that I
can see is something that looks like small particles of whatever - pretty
much the same as what one sees at the bottom of the Lindemans bottle.
_Good Taste, Bad Taste_
The posting on the roster of lambics, etc. consumed at Mike's pretty much
begs a follow up with a sample of tasting notes. C'mon, guys, play fair.
Todd
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 8:48:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Brett, Oily Mouthfeel
Ale writes:
% Jim and Mike speculate about the slowness of Brett and perhaps it has
% something to do with the Saccaromyces eating up all the glucose. For
% blending purposes, I brewed up a 4-gallon batch of wort and pitched
% nothing but the Wyeast Brett into 3 of those gallons. It was slow.
% It had nothing to compete with, but still it was very slow.
Brett will gorw slowly regardless of the conditons. I think Martin was trying
to get an answer to why Brett character (i.e. animalistic type flavor and
aroma) seems to be a problem to achieve in plambic vs acid-character, which may
be due to both pedio and brett. It seems that the acid character is not a
problem to achieve but brett character is. Why? This may be a temperature
dependent phenomenon, but I am speculating based on a single data point (i.e
conversation). Another experiment.
% Regarding the Boon MP '93, I tried some last Saturday at the Mainstreet
% tasting and felt is tasted "oily." Does anyone concur? There was a lot
% of lactic character and a little horseyness/oakyness, but the taste, to
% me was "oily." Forget about calling Mainstreet -- I bought every bottle
% of MP they had in the store: '86 Framboise, '89 Kriek and '93 Gueuze.
% If they get more, I'll post, but only after I've taken another few cases
% for my personal collection.
I described the mouthfeel as a creamy sensation but I suppose oily is also
appropriate. The 93 is very big in brett character and this is due to the
various fatty acids which are of the C6-C12 range as I recall. So it may not
be a big surprise that it is oily ot the palate. I think it is very mousy and
not real lactic. Drink the 89 and you will be able to really benchmark lactic.
It is suspected that the 89 is so acid because of the abnormally high
temperature that occured in belgium prior to it being bottled. This is pure
speculation. Also the psycodelic pink foam may be due to the use of other than
schaarbeek cherries. Just specualtion though, no hard evidence.
%
% Finally, regarding Norman's plambik/pgueuze differences, how would you
% all think they would be different? Gueuze is a bottled blend of old and
% young lambik. Lambik doux (according to Guinard) is young sweetened
% lambik. As I see it, the only lambik any of us would be likely to taste
% would be from casks at the breweries -- do any cafes still sell lambik?
% Young lambik, I would think, would taste different from gueuze, but how
% would old lambik (if it was bottled) taste any different from gueuze?
% If we are to present a proposal to the AHA for changing the guidelines,
% then we should come up with a consensus, no?
I think changing the guidelines, other than eliminating faro, will just add
confusion to an already little understood style.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:17:43 +0800 (U)
From: Norman Dickenson <norman.dickenson at SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Gueuze vs. Lambic
Gueuze vs. Lambic
Norman says: <It seems that if a plambic were entered as a gueuze, it
would probably be slammed for obvious stylistic
differences.>
Jim says: <whetther or not a beer is slammed is a function of
whether or not the
judges really know what lambics are all about.>
Al says: < regarding Norman's plambik/pgueuze differences, how
would you
all think they would be different?>
and: <If we are to present a proposal to the AHA for
changing the guidelines,
then we should come up with a consensus, no?>
It seems that if Bitters is acknowledged as a competition style which is
presented in
bottles, so might Lambic also be a legitimate style regardless that in
actuality it is
found only on draft .
For the purpose ofAHA National Competition guideline definitions, the
difference beteen
gueuze and lambic might simplistically be defined as *sparkling* and *still*.
-norman-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 09:15:05 PST
From: cr at humphrey.com (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Straight Lambic Rantings
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
>I assume you mean straight unblended, flat beer in a bottle. Well lambic does
>not exist in the bottle. Real lambic comes from a cask and is served in cafes
>in Brussel etc. For the most part I think most of the "gueuze" that we are
>making is really lambic-like beer that is primed.
Agreed, most of the pgueuze is primed plambic. For a taste of bottled lambic,
seek out Broucsella from Cantillon. It's 3 years old, unblended, and flat.
Has the typically hard aceto-lacto Cantillon character, is even rougher and
ruder than Cantillon Gueuze, and varies all over the map.
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
>Finally, regarding Norman's plambik/pgueuze differences, how would you
>all think they would be different? Gueuze is a bottled blend of old and
>young lambik. Lambik doux (according to Guinard) is young sweetened
>lambik. As I see it, the only lambik any of us would be likely to taste
>would be from casks at the breweries -- do any cafes still sell lambik?
>Young lambik, I would think, would taste different from gueuze, but how
>would old lambik (if it was bottled) taste any different from gueuze?
There are 7-8 cafes that I know of with their own casks, still blending and
serving lambic in the more-or-less traditional fasion. It's very telling
visiting some of these places, surrounded by locals drinking mass produced
Maes, or some such pils. Most of the pils swillers can't believe that anyone
would actually *drink* that nasty lambic stuff. You should see the looks on
their faces when you tell them you've travelled 9000 km to do exactly that!
Old lambic is entirely different from gueuze. First off, it's flat. Also, gueuze
is much more refined than straight lambic. Lambic is typically much rougher,
and an even more acquired taste than gueuze (and I'm not talking about that
ignoble Interbrew Kool-aid beverage they serve at La Becasse in Brussels).
The spectrum of lambic tastes is extremely varied. Because so much depends on
the cask and cellaring conditions, each cafe is different. You may find anything
from Fino Sherry to rotten eggs - or both. It's all part of the fun.
Cheers,
CR
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 10:35:47 -0800
From: Michael Sharp <msharp at Synopsys.COM>
Subject: Am I the last to know??
Hi,
I just got a subscription request (nothing strange about that) and the
author mentioned seeing the digest's address on the "WWW Home Page of
Brewing Belgian Beers (http://karikukko.pc.helsinki.fi/SKOOL/BBB/BBB.html)".
Am I the last to know or is this something new?
--Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 13:40:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian A Nummer <BAN5845 at tntech.edu>
Subject: Miscellaneous
Apologies if this has been discussed lately...
1. Are there any sources in US for Belgian style bottle corks (and obviously
bottles to fit the cork into)? I am looking for the champange style cork made
from all cork.
2. Are there any other sources beside Frozen Wort theat supply Curacao (sp?)
Orange?
Lastly a general note. Thanks to those who helped edit my Brewing with Lactic
Acid Bacteria article. Much to my dismay I have found out that Zymurgy has
scheduled it for Spring of 1996. This will give me time to perfect my recipes
and make using L.A.B. user-friendly.
On a research note... I have found that several of my Lactobacillus are hop
sensitive to even 5 IBU. I was under the general impression that Pedio were
more prone to hop sensitivity than Lactobacillus, but it appears to be strain
dependent as opposd to genus dependent.
Brian Nummer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 18:22:52 -0600 (CST)
From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
Subject: Added raspberries and nothing happened...
Hi everyone.
This weekend, I bottled 3 gallons of pLambic and racked 3 gallons onto
about 5 or 6 pounds of frozen raspberries. Now, I have a serious dilema...
Nothing is happening to the stuff that's been racked onto the berries!
This further troubles matters because I'm now worried that the stuff in the
bottles isn't going to carbonate!
Has anyone else experienced a plambic that was totally "dead"? This stuff
was 10 months old, and it hadn't changed in either appearance or flavor for
the last 2 or 3 months...
It's been four days, so I'm starting to worry about the berries possibly
going moldy or something nasty like that happening.
I'd really appreciate some suggestions! Thanks...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 22:34:47 -0500
From: DavidM3019 at aol.com
Subject: yeast
On a trip I picked up the following Belgiun Ales. I would like to know if any
of them are suitable for yeast culturing.
Corsendonk
Affligem (Tripel)
Affligem (Dobbel)
Duvel
La Trappe (Tripel) From Holland
Thanks in advance,
David
------------------------------
End of Lambic Digest
************************
-------
